yankel berel

Hello?

@qwerty
Lubavichers regularly “prove” that the Rebbe was a Novi by saying he made correct predictions.
[qwerty]
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If that is the case, then it logically should follow that he is hayav mitah as navi sheker.
A navi , in order to be accepted as navi, has to undergo a test, where the only acceptable success rate is 100 % .
A 99% return is considered as failure, As this indicates that God did not speak to him and therefore is a Navi Sheker and liable of mitah bebet din.
[Cf rambam hil yesodei torah towards the end]

Their rebbi predicted that NO ONE will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War.
fact of the matter is that people were wounded and one person DIED as a direct result of missile impact.

Rambam states clearly – if only one minor detail does not eventuate as predicted , siman that he is a navi sheker.
So , I would say , He did not mean it as a clear prediction and as an ultimate test for halahic qualification for nevua level.

It was meant as a hope ,as encouragement ,as a braha and as a limud zhut.
Thats the beginning and the end of his so called “halahic nevua status”.

@sechel

Sehel complains that whatever habad says is taken by its critics in a literal sense.
Answer is simple – that’s because that’s the way it is taken by habad hasidim , the intended audience – in a literal sense.
Which is also part of the speakers intention.

Doesn’t the speaker know that his hasidim will take it literally ??
Sure he does .

And he nevertheless continues speaking , knowing that it will be taken literally.
Without any caveats or warnings, that this meant to be understood in a non literal sense

So ,after we know that the audience AND the speaker mean it literal, why the complaint about the critic and the bystander also taking it literally ?

This is disingenuous , in my view.
————————————————
Btw – this is how their rebbi succeeded in getting his hasidim to this point .

You cannot whip your followers into hysterics overnight .
You cannot change their mind overnight either.
Don’t forget all those ideas of him being the greatest the cleverest the one we waited for 2000 years etc etc are all new . They had to seep into his follower’s consciousness AND subconsciousness .

That takes time, subtlety and consistency.

The best way is to use language which lends itself to both a literal and non literal meaning .
Thats how it is never earth-shattering news , which might cause opposition, evidence-based scrutiny or criticism .
Because its ‘only’ non literal.
Not a big deal.

But the new language lodges itself in the listener’s brain.
Then there is a repetition, or better, many repetitions , until this becomes part of normal conversation between his followers, like hello and good morning.

Which again fortifies this new idea in the listeners consciousness. It becomes so strong and so pashut in his mind after years of the above , that when challenged by an outsider who did not go thru this process, the listener genuinely believes the outsider is at odds with objective reality.

This has been going on for the last 8 decades, with the abysmal results now plainly on display.

The following I saw with my own eyes:

a habad truck with
right beside a picture of their rebbi

Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God. [!!]

????

—————————————-

What was the rejoinder ??? The logical habad rejoinder ???

yankel berel , get your eyes checked

————————————–

Is it possible to have a normal debate with such people ?

@damoshe
Good Idea.

?

@qwerty

@philosopher

re the gdolims stance re habad-

I did not read Dr bergers book itself , but I did see the haskama of Rav A Feldman Rosh Yeshiva of Baltimore Yeshiva and Member of Moetset of America dated 4 Tamuz 5764.

Where he writes about the fallacy of the habad mashiach charade.

And continues about the prevalence of praying to, instead of to God – to the late habad leader [a’l]

Whereafter he writes [in free translation]

‘It is befitting to whoever whose forefather stood at Har Sinai, to wallow in earth that such is occurring to our own brothers and sisters,
AND KOL SHEKEN that everyone should do whatever physically possible that those FALSEHOODS should not be spread and / or accepted by the temimim of Klal Yisrael.

HaShem Imha Gibor HaHayil [addressing Dr Berger]
May your sincere words have an influence and let us all be zoche to meet the TRUE redeemer
[signature]
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@qwerty
I don’t know if you read Dr. Berger’s book but he spoke extensively about the refusal of Gedolim to do anything despite all the evidence. He said that one Godol told him that we’re waiting for them to do something really bad. My guess is that they’re afraid to act because it could lead to a lawsuit and Chabad would probably win in court and in the court of world opinion.
===
I am not privy to dr bergers discussions with rabanim. So it is hard to comment.
But what IS clearly in the public’s domain is the public statements of many rabanim about habad .
Whether it is from the litvish side or the satmar side or the sefaradi side.
Boy are they strong statements ….

They are clear warnings that some really uncomfortable things are developing in habad.
The only step they have not taken [yet] and I seem to understand that’s what you are alluding to ….
is the fact that no one has paskened [yet] that their edut for gittin vakidushin is invalid , which would have MAJOR repercussions in regard to mamzerut and yichus.

Which shows that , when push comes to shove , they did not classify them [at least as a group] as apikorsim and kofrim.
Its interesting that rav shach limited his public anti habad statements to the time when their leader was healthy and functioning. There are no public ststements on record from his last stroke and onwards , around pesach time in 1992.
That seems to indicate that rav shachs impetus for his anti habad statements were more based on future based concerns re where a healthy and functioning habad leader could potentially take us .

Whereas now we are dealing with the fallout of the hasidims theological shenanigans .
Which could also mestasise and who knows where that would end ?

lemaskanah

whats behind the guy with a truck openly stating

Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God. [!!]

This guy ‘s being literal . or not ?

Nu what s behind this ? Atsmut umehut betoch haguf , or not ?

The silence is deafening here.

….

@lostspark
We have a klal in halacha – whenever there is a mahloket between a dentist and troops in armored vehicles , the Halacha follows the troops ,irrespective what the svara is and irrespective of whether there are re’ayot in any direction, for sure if there are flags on top of the vehicles .

@Menachem Shmei
is being moche on the grounds of Bizuy Talmidei hahamim.

Laudable.

At first glance.
But limited to the level Kvod Talmidei Hahamim displayed at the leader of Habad hasidims farbrengen on purim 1956.

Ma’ase Rav. [leshitat menahem] .

Anything similar to the bizayon exhibited there is obviously permitted.

…..

.

I myself remember hearing [in the early eighties] , from a mekor ne’eman that R Salamon zatsal [mashgiah of BMG] , convened a closed meeting in 1967[!] about his concern about the utterances of the habad leader .
[yb to shmei]

1) If this is even true, do we know for a fact that they discussed this sicha, which was said 17 years earlier? If yes, why did they only wake up about it now?
If it was 1967, it is more reasonable to assume that they were discussing the shocking and disturbing chiddush “שלא ראו אבותינו” of the Rebbe encouraging chassidim to put tefillin on non-frum Jews 😲 (which began that year in connection with the war).
[shmei to yb]
—–
Shmei’s flippant response here shows that he [nor did any of the other habad apologists] has not understood the nature of this discussion.
He and the other supporters still think that this is some version of teenage banter centered on support for competing sports teams.

It is not.
This is a dead serious conversation and they have not grasped the seriousness of the substantial allegations .
R Salamon wasnt a little child and he voiced serious concerns about habad’s theology and the dangerous turns it was making ,travelling towards a personality cult direction, away from klal yisraels and its own tradition.

Thats the substance of the issue .

Not newspapers and gimmicks. Not some supposed bemeizid falsifications .
Or alleged mean spirited misinterpretations of habad ,rooted in supposed personal vendettas.

Serious concerns by serious people.

To be addressed in a serious and satisfactory manner.

Hi
are there still posts to be published ?

As continuation

There was a decades long deliberate drip-fed, dual language brainwash going on during the last 8 decades ,leading untold unsuspecting temimim who were genuinely thirsty for dvar hashem to magnify and exaggerate the gadlut of their leader to unimaginable proportions.
It is clear that the rebbi of habad hasidim quenched his hasidim’s thirst .
But he did it with a mix of genuine and bogus torah teaching coupled with a slow but persistent indoctrination of his own supremacy over all other torah leaders over the generations. Leading to the unfortunate result of many many of OUR OWN BROTHERS AND SISTERS, misguided temimim, who, even while staying within the confines of Orthodoxy, are harboring a xtian like belief in their leader., AND ARE EDUCATING their future generations to a yahadut BASED on that belief.

These are the stark facts , whether on likes them , or not.
Whether one is sufficiently removed from habad in order to be able to notice them ,or not.
[After all -kol hanega’im adam ro’e huts mi nig’ei atsmo]

@Shmei
As introduction –

this is NOT personal against you,
is NOT personal against Habad hasidim either.
This is NOT sin’at hinam , —– simply because there is no sin’a at all.

I have NO preconceived notions against habad , nor do I have any grievances against habad.

Aderaba – I LIKE habad hasidim.

But – facts ARE facts , and evidence counts.

So :
A1] One cannot be naive . Otherwise you turn into a “useful idiot”.
It is clear [without fact checking your claim when this atsmut toch haguf rubbish was said] that the future leader of habad is [more than] interested in the success of his future endeavor of leading his hasidim. That goes without saying and is obvious to anyone.

A2] Just to remember, there were 2 understandings [according to the habad defense here] ,

One: the LITERAL MEANING that God resides in a guf . This IS God.[a’l] our Creator . Who continues to be Manhig lehol HaBru’im
Two: The NON LITERAL MEANING that the tsadiq connects himself so strongly to God that legodel dibuko, we could stick a title to him AS IF he would be God.

To Anyone learning those early sfarim It is clear that the No’am Elimelech, R Bachay ,Minhat El’azar are referring to the second NON LITERAL MEANING

Thats why no one went crazy when those sfarim wrote what they wrote.

With the [late] leader of the habad hasidim , however, it is a totally different story. I myself remember hearing [in the early eighties] , from a mekor ne’eman that R Salamon zatsal [mashgiah of BMG] , convened a closed meeting in 1967[!] about his concern about the utterances of the habad leader .

So it is not true to say like shmei would have us believe
“no one went crazy until 1989.”

They went crazy already in 1967 [and in Israel even earlier]

I am witness to habad truck adorned with a picture of their leader with the following inscription underneath
Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God.

you cannot ignore the different language employed by their leader , different to ALL OTHER rebeim and rabbanim in this generation re his/shvers greatness

AND the different RESULTS engendered in his followers . Again – different to all other followers in other communities in our generation.

Both the language and the results are very different . This is a deliberate attempt at engendering a different result .

Think about this carefully .

@lostspark
quoting qwerty:

“ The Chazakah is that all Lubavitchers are idolaters.”

“ I didn’t say that all Lubavichers are idolaters.”
———————–
lostspark attacking qwerty:
Which is it buddy? Is only Lubavitchers at your ChaBaD house that aren’t idol worshippers?
============================================================================
Why is the first part of your yr msg a necessary contradiction ?
Never heard of hazaka saying one thing and the metsius could be oppposite ?

@lostspark
If I am correct , then we will never hear about this debate having any connection to sin’at hinam any more
Not from you and not from any other habad apologizer.
No difference whether qwerty or anyone else answers or doesn’t answer sechels or any other habad apologists claims.

This is not sin’at hinam . These are totally legit questions to put to anyone who attempts to
1] completely take over the mainstream Judaism all over the globe
2] change old age Judaism and to remake it chvsh in its own problematic image.
.
.

@lostspark
qwerty’s arguments with habad do not stem from sin’at hinam , nor from a place behind the sechel , nor from any other extraneous place.
Rather they stem from the evidence .
The evidence itself.
If you are not happy with his arguments you will have to answer them on the evidence and the evidence only .
No point to change topic and talk about nonexistent sin’at hinam.
.

A rebbe is mashiach by definition”. That is ludicrous on it’s face, and doesn’t really deserve a rebuttal.
===
Correct.

@qwerty
I do not blame the habad hasidim .
I admire them .
They follow faithfully, and blindly.

They are – in my opinion at least – not any less than ‘tinokot shenishbu’.
They swallow their leaders bait, hook line and sinker.
No wonder they do what they do, and think what they think.

If they would start thinking [even for a mashehu] for themselves , instead of blindly regurgitating all the nonsense they are being force fed for the last 8 decades , then there would be some glimmers of hope for their future.

sechel is spewing nothing more than classic habad misinformation and propaganda.

1] No one accused baal hatanya and early habad hassidim of praying to their rebbi.

2] The arguments against the current/previous rebbi of habad have nothing to do with the polemic about hassidism 200 – 250 years ago.

It is perfectly possible to fully side with the hasidim 200 years ago and still fully side with R Shach on this argument.

It can only be a sign of lack of adequate responses if sehel reverts back to the old canard that the issues are somehow related.

Anyone out there considering neo habad claims – BEWARE !!
Do not fall in to their trap.

Do not fall for their friendliness, for their idealism.
Do not fall for their warmth and their assistance to yehudim all over the globe.
Carefully consider any of their claims against all the available evidence.
Consider it with a cool head and careful reasoning.

Once you are crystal clear about their theology , you will not be tempted to follow them into their cult de sac anymore

The multitude of Gdolei Yisrael did not agree with satmar rav .
They ALL saw and read Vayoel Moshe and still disagreed with him .
.
That should settle the matter.
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@prisha siman ?

@sechel
which poskim hold its not ?
Even after half an hour after hatsot, that is ….

NO ONE !

After so many times asking
sechel has not been able to mention one clear posek who authorizes birhot kr
shm and Shm’E on Shabbat more than half an hour after hatsot

.