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for the benefit of the readers –
I will correctly rephrase somejews previous post …
—
a person like @ujm who quotes the many many quotes from chazal that mention that there will be a time that Jews will suffer under a kingdom of the “erev rav”.Many many quotes from chazal that express this “erev rav” as being direct partners with the S”M and Amulek.
And now, with the rise of this non antisemitic stated called “Israel”,
a state that has tried to defend itself from so much death ,
a state based on the same ideology that has not brought us the Holocaust ,
a state that continues to send Jewish boys off to die in order to preserve the lives of its civilians ,you can find many many many rabunim and gedolim who say explicitly that the power the evil secularists within the state called “Israel” are wielding , is exactly that malchis of “erev rav” that chazal mentioned.
Why do you call a person who reiterates those Torah teachings as a “Rasha Gamur”(sic)?
.The problem is that somejew and katan are employing a literal reading to divrei drush
they are mistaking divrei drush and divrei mussar as if they were halachot psukot arrived at kedarka shel torah
they are not
hence, their ‘totally off’ maskanot …
.Edited
I merely quoted the steipler as it is written
clearly differentiating between jews for j about who there is no mitsva of ve’ahavta , on one hand and
dati leumi jews where there is a hiyuv de’oraytah of vea’havtah , on the other hand
I never advocated for believing in athalta di’ge’oula
nor have I ever claimed anything about some supposed “impossibility of becoming a rushe” …
hareshut netuna [mishna avot] is said about everyone – from somejew and katan themselves to
yours truly and any other jew.
.
and besides am not entirely sure what somejew even wants in his last post ….
..
@ square root
Thank you for your response.
Sorry , but What you wrote does not reflect reality .
You should really withdraw the rest of your writing about haredim too – not only the part about hospitals .
Most of it is demonstrably incorrect.
Wishing you and yours -like coffee – a Chativa v Chatima Tova and ask that you be Moichel to me if I have committed an avera against you
.@square
I cannot see why ujm is any more of a rasha than
someone who is clearly motsi shem ra – or even says lashon hara- about
hundreds of thousands of innocent and sincere individuals ….
.
..
@aaq
no one was ever hinting at any violence
neither is anyone using vile language
we are only reflecting on raw reality as it manifests itself
whatever I wrote is nothing more than a mirror of said reality
Israeli laws are clear cut
they totally omit any power given under any circumstance for any court to abolish any law
what SC does and did , is an absolutely illegal power grab ,
aided and abetted by an AG beholden to said SC and by
violent street protests bankrolled by overseas governments ‘aid’ money and by soros type NGO’s
.Besides – SC’s annulment of the Tal law was made under false pretenses of so called ‘equality’
blatantly obviously false , as this very same SC upholds Israeli Arabs automatic freedom from Army service
notwithstanding their full and equal legal citizenship in the state , not any less than haredim’s legal citizenship .
.
.
So – legally, full time learners deferring their service are not draft dodgersand those enforcing it – are legally , kidnappers
.
.
.this was written from a strictly legal perspective.
.@aaq
to clarify – there is no law authorizing the SC to cancel any laws passed by the knesset.
you say – there is nothing forcing the knesset to follow the SC , -that is a perfectly accurate observation.
that is besides the violent thugs , bankrolled by soros and the biden admin ,
who forcibly put the whole country to a stop
shielded by a corrupt SC, and
helped by biased media and bureaucracy
which was the only thing stopping the knesset from asserting its legal and lawful authority.
.to summarize , SC overreach, bases itself, not on Israeli law as it really should , but on plain violent street thuggery.
.
this is well known to anyone following Israeli news …
.it is obviously not a sfek-sfek-sfek…sfeika if the Zionists are violating the oaths. That’s silly. [katan]
—
you are misinterpreting what I said .All I am dealing with ,is not the tsidkut or otherwise of the z.
We have to deal in a cold logical halachik way without emotions ,
about the continued EXISTENCE of the state ,
not about the z campaign under the british ,
not the establishment of the state ,
not about the wars that followed.
not about what the z could or should have done,
they are all history , and irrelevant
the question of the continued EXISTENCE of the state is intertwined with the pikuach nefesh of millions
and therefore extremely weighty
this question of the continued EXISTENCE of the state vs the pikuach nefesh concerns ,
is to be solved on the basis of PRESENT REALITY in 2025.
sidestepping this reality , automatically disqualifies you from any halachic logical input to deal with this problem
that would be the same as purposely ignoring the workings of a fridge and
then in the same breath claiming that you know whether its use is permitted on shabat.
—
Since the discussion is not about ‘history’ , rather about reality.meaning the EXISTENCE of the state ,
it definitely is a sfek-sfek-sfek…sfeika
whether said EXISTENCE contravenes the oaths
.
..
“The only delusion I see in this discussion is Z … if the Z actually cared about Jewish lives …. [katan]
—
that’s exactly your problem . you cannot see anything beyond the rish’ut of the z .that blinds you to all reality and warps your mind to consider the present world with a century old perspective,
time to wake up, mr katan, we are now in 2025 … and have to respond to the reality in 2025 ….
..
@aaq
it seems you are determined to make it into the Guinness book of records under the subject of sidestepping …
such a simple question and you keep on refusing to answer …
what’s the big deal about answering ?
in case where advice etc. does not help – ,period.
in a cold , cost and benefit analysis , would you send all ten , or would you send none ?
.
.
.
I am [patiently…] waiting for your honors wisdom ….
.
.@aaq
unfortunately, @somejew is desperate to always misinterpret yankels comments , making believe that
yankel said his own histadlis are what saves lives and that ultimately he is in control of his own destiny.
somejew does not [want to] understand the oft repeated axiom from kadmonenu that in saving or helping others ,
there is no inyan of bitachon . one is mehuyav to approach that inyan of helping others as
if there is no inyan of bitachon on the RBSH”O , and has to be done ‘all out’.
that was all yankel said .
he merely quoted from kadmonenu
so- what follows is that , when considering helping and saving your neighbor[s] , the hiyuv hishtadlut has to be “all out ”
as the everyday example of the tsadiqim of hatsala amply demonstrate
they do not wait and shmooze , they run as fast as they can ,
even if it is a safek , even it is a sfek sfeika , even if it is a sfek sfek sfeika , even if it is a sfek sfek sfek sfek sfeika,
even on shabbat , even on yom tov , even on yom kippur
and they do not say , the result is anyway bashert , I have bitachon,
I can walk the same pace I walk to shul , or to do any other mitsva , whatever happens will happen anyway …
no hatsala member , anywhere in the world, has that approach
because of that axiom in yahadut – when you have to help or save someone else
the hiyuv is to act as if the outcome depends only on your actions
that is not kfira chv’sh , that is the proper approach al pi torah
thats all yankel has been saying from the start, and that is all yankel continues to say in to the future
somejew is ignoring that , at his own peril
.
Fyi. Steipler writes clearly, black on white, in karyane de’igreta vol 1 , that
it is assur to say lashon hara about dati leumi yehudim even if they [mistakenly] believe that the state is the forerunner of our ge’oula.
they are not ‘begeder yatsa miklal amitecha’
and are to be considered our brother in all halachik respects .
.
.
obviously they are not jews for jobviously they are not OTD when fully observant
obviously they are not ‘geshmad’
.
they are only ‘mistaken’ in one aspect , but still our brothers witha hiyuv de’oyraytah of ve’ahavtah leacha kamocha, towards them.
.
.@Square Root
You blew this one big time
“Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in the training, hiring and paying hospital employees.”
[square root]
—Guess you are completely unaware of Mayanei Yeshu’a Hospital in Bnei Brak. They train nurses and other hospital employees. A fully Chareidi hospital that has never gone on strike.
The Haredi Freshwater family has supported this institution.
Kudos to Dr Rothshild z’l , a fully haredi physician, who turned a dream into a reality.
..
Time has come for Square Root to apologize and delete his vile motsi shem ra …..
.
.We should thank ujm for all his quotes proving that we are not in any atchalta degeoula , rather
in a galut as a despised minority within a big and powerful majority of secularists.
as the gra z’l stated that after the galuyot under the 4 malhuyot , there will be
another a fifth galut under the erev rav within the jewish people.
which has come to pass in our days
the redifot that yeshiva bachurim and kolel men have to endure are no joking matter .
.
It is clear that tif’eret shlomo ‘s writing quoted by square root , has no connection whatsoever to
the present situation and
its extremely weighty pikuch nefesh conundrums, to be decided by the wisest of our sages.
..
@aaq
there is no source whatsoever for the court to cancel any law
a law is the expression of the sovereign , the one from where the court derives its own legitimacy
go through the lawbook and find me one …
there is no constitution in Israel , unlike other countries
so the court cannot get it from the constitution.
.without a source , they are … unauthorized !
this is simple logic, totally appropriate for any person , religious or not , ha’arets or not .
.
.a law
@aaq
just the opposite .
am not wearing any political hat at all
am writing with a purely legal hat on my head.
unauthorized decisions , overstepping their legal mandate , are legally null and void
their legal authority derives from the elected knesset only
they never received the authority to infringe on the legislative and executive branches ,
not from the knesset , and not from any other elected representative body
so using simple logic , in a strictly legal sense, their decisions are null and void , and
are to be considered as if they legally never happened
which leads us to the simple legal – not political- conclusion that those enforcing the draft are
legally to be considered ‘kidnappers’ , nothing less.
.those who are not happy with this legal arrangement have the option
to run for seats in the knesset and attempt to find a legal majority to change this
they had this option for the last 80 years in all of Israel’s elections and …
they have never changed the law
besides for the ‘tal law’ which was
again , ILLEGALLY cancelled
.@aaq
Again – sidestepping ….
the q was very simple – in a case when it cannot be helped !
it is impossible to rectify it, this is a fixed result , no matter what advice you give the kids,
.A] 3 kids are coming back crippled l’o
would you send all ten – yes or no ?
.B] 3 kids are coming back without their religion l’o
would you send all ten – yes or no ?
.simple q
deserves a simple answer …
.Lol.
Katan suggests that a non defined ‘esav’ will take care of the land , or
much more important,– the many millions of innocent women, men and children therein , while
somejew prefers the local arabs who are supposedly ‘well regarded as good, respectable caretakers of the land’ …
I am not sure whether to laugh or to cry , when reading such clear delusional propositions.
Anyone with even only rudimentary knowledge of current events and recent history
understands the massive bloody repercussions [H yishmerenu] from such irresponsible approaches
there is no ‘havtuche’ anywhere in the torah that when hefker decisions are taken in regard to pikuach nefesh
that nothing would happen to the endangered people.
this is a clear halacha she’ela .
not a hashkafa she’ela
and there is a clear halacha response , in sh’a YD 157
that pikuch nefesh is docheh any issur [besides the cardinal three] including the sfek sfek sfek sfek sfeika of the oaths’ issur
which clearly is the ONLY driver of those totally delusional propositions of somejew and katan .
.
clearer than midday sun , that , when somejew and katan would be free from
their imprisonment in the confines of the mental jail of the mistaken elevation of the oaths as one of the ikarei emuna,
they , in their wildest dreams would not even think of advocating for such dangerous ideas.
.
Using R Steinman zatsal as proof for katan’s warped shitah that
a fully observant Jew exiting the IDF,
is to be considered OTD , is plain fraudulent .
.
Over the past 50 years, the leftist self-appointed SC and the evil AG have completely rejected
every compromise solution to the Israeli Draft Crisis.Somehow that fact is NEVER MENTIONED
by radical Zionist fanatics like Square.That fact does not fit into his narrative,
so he conveniently forgets about it.
.
.@square
1] first of all — it is absolutely NOT true , —- what you wrote , is just plain ridiculous
2] second — issurei lashon hara apply when it IS true ….
who gave you a heter ?
the same God Who commanded us about motsi shem ra , commanded us about lashon hara …..
why are you getting worked up about katan’s motsi shem ra , and not about your own lashon hara ???
isn’t that hypocritical ??
two weeks before yom hadin ?
.
..
zsk states that he is of the opinion that full time learners should be drafted
but has not shown any reason why those who don’t, are acting against the law
and why those who enforce it should not be legally considered kidnappers.
..
I cannot understand why every answer of yours is again – sidestepping ….
Obvious you would test the the navi.
Obvious you would ask the navi what to do …
The q is ,again, navi tested – tick.
navi not available for advice , result of circumstances – tick.
you have to decide on your own
you know for a fact that 3 of your sons will return as a cripple
you know for a fact that 3 of your sons will return without their religion
the choice is clear – either you send all , or you send none
what would you do ?
send all ten ?
or send none ?
in both cases – the cripple case and the religion case –
please don’t avoid , not asking for more than a simple clear cut answer ….
.This signifies the collapse of somejews pretension to speak in the name of the torah
and in the name of orthodox judaism .
he is simply speaking in the name of …. himself .
.
.seems that square root is not willing to own up to his double standards ….
.Thank you to haimy for your nuanced post .
.Why is the ‘motsi shem ra’ square root , accusing other people of being ….. motsi shem ra ?
.
.@aaq
why are you sidestepping ?
I asked you a simple question …
if a navi told you that 3 of your kids will …. no matter what you advise them
what would you do ?
what’s so hard ?
.“There isn’t much else to say about this ….”
—
That sums it up . You are not willing to consider anything which goes against your preconceived opinion ….The facts however do not stack up .
The same law you quote, gives the defense minister the authority to defer drafting .
That was valid and legal enough for fifty long years .
fifty long years after the law you quote came into effect.
this was accepted practice and fully legal for half a century !
accepted practice by all defense ministers irrespective whether haredi parties were part of the coalition or the opposition .
only overturned by, seven merets voters aka supreme court UNAUTHORISED to do so.
same with Tal law . – overturned by the same merets voters aka supreme court UNAUTHORISED to do so.
those seven merets voters claimed that the tal law is ‘unconstitutional’ –
a fancy word which is nothing more than plain baloney , as Israel has no constitution ….
seven unelected leftists acting illegally have no power whatsoever
to overturn the decisions of Israels duly elected executive and legislative branches of government
so it simply follows , those enforcing the draft are nothing more than kidnappers
and those deferring are doing so legally .
it so happens that zsk concurs with those seven unelected merets voters on this particular issue
but that does not make any of their illegal decisions any more legal …
.
It is always easier to shut down a losing debate by saying : I am not discussing this any further .one should follow facts and logic and nothing more ….
which zsk is not really doing in our case ….
.
.@zsk
you are entitled to your opinion – but that does not make the current draft any more legal ….from a strictly legal point of view – those enforcing the draft, are kidnappers and should be treated as such .
so , calling them ‘draft dodgers’ is less accurate than calling those seeking to arrest them ‘kidnappers’ …
.@aaq
sorry but you have not answered .
the question is , when faced with the absolute knowledge that those are going to be the results , no matter the advice you are giving them ,
You have 10 children – if you know, A NAVI TOLD YOU , that three of them are going to lose their religion because of their service , would you send them ?
You have 10 children – if you know A NAVI TOLD YOU , that three of them are going to lose their health and come back as cripples because of their service , would you send them ?
keep in mind that neither [religion and health] are a result of any enemy actions , both are the result of internal army structure and command
If you could honestly answer both of those two questions …. without extra commentary.
.
.the question is and still remains valid –
if all of the inhabitants of EY do tshuva and are nizhar in everything mamash , besides your interpretation of the oaths , is it permitted/obligated , to defend their safety and fight , in case they cannot run away / make peace / bring the UN / or any other possible etsah ?
yes or no ?
and why ?
based on which halachik source ?
.Why does katan give the impression to be totally indifferent to the lot of the yehudim after his dismantlement of the state ?
.
Is that really part of his shitah ???
.
.Why are they [somejew and katan] so scared to answer ?
is it because of lack of answers ????
.
why is somejew sidestepping again ?
a clear shulhan aruch not like his claims .
why can’t he answer a simple question ?
.I don’t have access to the official printed version which habad disseminated
it is well known , however.
.katan :
Chareidim do not want to rule E”Y …
—Katan is not a spokesman for haredim .
the overwhelming majority of haredim who do participate in israeli elections , do want to rule EY ….
if they would constitute a majority , they would rule .
don’t be fooled by katans rigid adherence to a literal reading of SR writings .
his comments reflect nothing more .
.
.Where is square root ?
does he take responsibility for his vile rant ?
or is he hiding ?
.
Square root has lost his whole credibility by first shouting from all the rooftops that he is against motsi shem ra
and then himself spouting all types of baseless antisemitic accusations against many innocent hardworking people , who I personally know and recognize as such .
am betting that square himself is not ‘interested’ in building houses ‘with his bare hands’
nor is he ‘interested’ in picking fruit with his bare hands either …
am disgusted by his two facedness …..
.
.katan conveniently closes his eyes whenever something not fitting his shitah pops up …
and then claims he did not see it …
he is very nizhar in shmirat enayim ….
.katan :
The Khazar state is not a question on anything. The State existed when they were gentiles, and some of their ruling class then converted to Judaism. And their reign did not last all that long …
—
does katan realize he did not address the question at all ?katan claims the MERE EXISTENCE of a state before mashiach is kfira and yehareig ve’al yaavor ….
khazar state existed over many generations ,
so why did r yehuda halevy , when teaching the khazar king all about our belief , not at all mention this supposed hugely important ikar of judaism ?
katan seems happy to leave this [and many other] question[s] unanswered ….
and still expects us to accept his farfetched and unsubstantiated theories on the grounds of his say so ….
.
.katan :
The oaths do not apply during Temple times. That’s why.
—
why do they not apply during temple times ?=====
The oaths do not apply during Temple times. That’s why.—
and if the jews will rebuild the temple nowadays , according to your reasoning , will the oaths stop applying ?
.While I am not a zionist [like damoshe is] and I do disapprove of zionism ,
nevertheless it is clear that he can be a zionist and still not reject the torah
like steipler clearly writes in karyaneh de’igrata vol 1
.Have not heard from square root yet —-
Nu
when is Square Root going to delete his motsi shem ra ???
.katan :
Obviously, as the Chazon Ish wrote, the Zionist “independence” day should really be, if anything, a 9 Av, not a holiday.—
don’t believe chazon ish himself ever wrote that …
.Would katan would use the services of any atheist/zionist/reform top surgeons …. ?
yes or no ?
. waiting for an honest answer
.katan seems afraid to answer ……
wonder why ….
is it because his intuition tells him that his answer will prove to be contradictory to his make believe shitah he is trumpeting as if reflecting the torah ?
the more he avoids answering , the more it seems that is really the case ….
.nu mr somejew ??
yb: The Zionists’ tremendous weakness in logic is very clear indeed.
Since you asked:
1] specifying exactly which country will take over – the nations can figure that out
2] what that country plans to do when threats arise to the yidden – this is silly; what would you do if there are threats to Jews in Zimbabwe, for example? The government there would have to deal with it. Same in the holy land, with whichever government takes over from the Zionists.
3] how many dead soldiers are they are willing to absorb before they will withdraw – zero, of course – it should be totally peaceful and bloodless, of course.
4] what the situation will be after their withdrawal … – a normal and secure country unlike the Zionist paradise which is forever at war and takes billions of dollars a year to maintain that sorry state and “State”.
—-
the above are the ‘pearls’ from the one pretending to worry about the Jews .
Read his words – he takes ZERO responsibility ….
.
.
scandalous ….
.