yankel berel

even according to sechels [non]claim re the actual and verifiable death of a well known lawyer from Petah Tiqva

, he still spouts the most illogical of rubbish

sechel :

I heard the kfar chabad wrote that [no one will be nizok] , but it was a mistake

—–

“the kfar habad” are fanatics [in their belief in their rebbi]

they should misquote their own rebbi ??

Yehoshua bin nun misquotes moshe rabenu ?

—

I remember the publications distributed by habad at the time – not the newspaper kfar habad.

Habad in EY , at the time , distributed every utterance of their rebbi in the streets .

Regularly.

As it happened .

It was very easy to follow.

Everyone took it as authentic at the time .

This was the shofar of the rebbi of the habadi’s .
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I clearly remember the promise that no yid in EY will be nizok.

He said , in addition ,also well publicized [and remembered by yours truly] that EY is the most safe place on the globe ….

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Listen , mr sechel [and menachem , behind the door] , thats not the way to establish halachik nevu’a.

You cannot ‘cut and paste’ nevu’ot according to need.

You cannot claim retroactively that the part which [ostensibly] happened, was predicted and the part which clearly did not happen , was a ‘mistake’ .

Sounds more like a bad joke than like halachik prophesy ….
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Qiucck reminder of somejew’s post :

In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
—

Contrast that with maran bet yosef in shulhan aruch mentioned in my previous post .

Somejew is playing around with klal yisraels literal amud hahalacha here.
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@sechel

Besides my previous post re the guy from Petach Tiqva dying from a Scud.

Your rebbi “prophesized” that no one will even be nizok.

I remember .

I remember this very clearly . I followed , at the time, all utterances of your rebbi as they were coming out.

I read all so called “Dvar Malhut’s” as they were published.

Many people were wounded by the Scuds.

If your rebbi claimed to possess full halachik nevu’a – he is liable for mita bebet din as navi sheker.

Cf Rambam hilchot yesodeh hatorah [end] .

Where he clearly states

If the prospective navi fails even in one small detail of his prediction ,

we know for sure that he is sheker , and therefore hayav mitah .
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@sechel

Sechel:

Example of the Rebbe’s nevuah is that no one will be killed from the skuds. I’m not a posek but many poskim signed that the rebbe has a din navi. Search Google for the psak din.

——

Lol.

I remember the guy in Petah Tiqva who died from a scud landing right on top of him.

He was known nationally as an anti religious lawyer who donated his services , pro bono, in any secular vs religion court case.

If your rebbi claimed to have fully halachik nevu’ah , then your rebbi is liable to mitat bet din as navi sheker.

Cf Rambam hilchot yesodeh hatorah [end] .

Where he clearly states

If the prospective navi fails even in one small detail of his prediction ,

we know for sure that he is sheker , and therefore hayav mitah .

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@sechel

how do you explain smag that before eliyahu hanavi comes there will be no nevu’a anymore ?

is there proof that rambam [igret teiman] is holek on smag ?

By proof I mean , proof without any other way out ?

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@qwerty

@sechel

Why say that there is a machloket between rambam and smag ?

Afushei plugta lo mafshinan.

Smag says no nevua till eliyahu hanavih

rambam seems to say [as far as i remember] close before mashiach nevuah will return .

[would like a page number of rambam in igeret teiman if possible]

Because of Afushei plugta lo mafshinan , we should say that both agree that before eliyahu there is no nevu’a

and with coming of eliyahu and his nevu’a , rambams prediction will come true.
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Hello Menachem ?

Are you there ?

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Somejew clearly lumped Z together with Jews for j .

There is a huge difference between those 2 .

Belief in Jews for j is classified as halachik kfira, whereas

belief in Z is definitely not.

Huge and dramatic difference .

Divorce with fully frum Jews for j as edut

renders the resulting kids into mamzerim gmurim assur lavo bakahal lanetsach

whereas divorce with fully frum Z as edut

leaves the resulting children as ksheirei yichus lemehadrin,

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@yya

yakov yosef a :

I suspect that the Divrei Yoel would not be pleased with that מהלך. He is on record, in internal Satmar sources, as having said that the lomdus of the Shalosh Shevuos is not for Goyim, and a Goy who claims to be opposed to ‘Zionism’ is really opposed to Jews…

—-

I hear that this is your private opinion.

On the other hand both nephews and mamshichim of Divrei Yoel actually kept quiet.

Both of of them , I would suspect are closer and therefore are more knowledgable about the real shita of the SR .

If it’s a tossup between you and them about what D’Y actually held , with all due respect , I would take their opinion over yours .
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Ohhh

Menachem …

Shalom Aleichem !

Where have you been all this time ???

We have sooo many kushyot and you do have all the answers . Why have you not shared your intelligence and knowledge with us ??

Please , Menachem there is a huge backlog of unanswered questions . And an equally huge line of questions you [officially] answered , but really sidestepped.

Waiting to hear from you ….

With complete honesty and complete candidness, as is self understood …..
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@yya

I am not in the business of judging other jews , not whether they are destined for olam haba , nor on anything else.

I only attempted to isolate the so called krumkeit of Z . and thereby arrive at a correct valuation of the extent of that krumkeit .

Thats all .
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@yaakov yosef

yya:

Someone who starts a conversation among Yidden by asking for suggestions on what would be the best way to do something that בלי שום ספק would jeopardize millions of Jewish lives is not Satmar, he’s stam a troll or a ‘pyromaniac’. If a Goy would write the same thing he would clearly be an antisemite.

—–

Agree.

But , you write ” ……. is not satmar ”

I have to take issue here.

Fact is that the then -Senate Majority Leader , Sen Shumer [D/NY] in his Senate speech ,defending his vote for holding back from the IDF , certain essential US weaponry ,

quoted satmar ideology and constituents as backing.

This went past without any correction from satmar –

meaning that official satmar was happy that their name and their shita kdosha be used to withhold essential weapons to defend innocent yehudim in EY …

Here we have proof that ‘official satmar’

would definitely jeopardize millions of Jewish lives ….

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@yaakov Yosef

As with almost everything else you write, I find it hard to disagree with your most recent post.

However the main point I am making to somejew is :

You cannot equalize between xtianity and zionism IN THE LEVEL OF KFIRA inherent in both of those movements.

Or between communism and zionism for that matter.

Or between atheism , paganism , idol worship on one hand and Zionism on the other.

All those other movements and belief systems are heresies with clear HALACHIC repercussions.

Whereas Z ,even according to those very same rabanim labeling Z as a heresy , has no clear halachik repercussions.

Anyone honest , has to agree with this observation, notwithstanding his righteous anger at the real destruction Z has wrought upon religion .

—

Besides I have not yet heard specifically why a fully frum jew , living in our generation, advocating for the continued existence and welfare of the state untill mashiachs arrival ,

could be accused of anything heretical .

Could anyone please pinpoint in what way does the continued existence and welfare of the state contradict the torah ?

If they will – validly – point towards the many anti torah activities the state engages in .
Then the answer should be al pi torah that we advocate for the cessation of those activities.

Simple.
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somejew:

In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.

There is a lot more to say about both sides of the mutar/assur of the 3 shevios, but the foundational concept is as above. One cannot fight the non-Jews with violence because of pekiach nefesh, and that is both explicitly stated by Maharal but also blatantly obvious in context of the shevios that are fundamentally about dealing with the dangers of gulis (galus).

————

Shulhan Aruch permits , no mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).

Thats not an agada sefer . [without a specific source – just maharal – without the possibility to look it up]

That is THE ultimate halacha sefer for all klal yisrael for the last 500 years.
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An excellent proof by the way [according to you] – like the shut avnei nezer that the 3 shavu’ot are not binding lehalacha.
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@sechel

Rambam igeres taiman:
“According to the interpretation of this chronology, prophecy would be restored to Israel in the year 4976 after the creation of the world”

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what page in the iggeres are these words ?

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@qwerty

@somejew

Its very simple.

as mentioned

My point is as follows – the words heresy and heretic are used oftentimes , but do not always mean the same thing.

I will list some examples of usage of this word and hope anyone will understand what I mean.

The first usage of the word heresy pertains in an [for lack of better word] hagadic way.

For example Someone who gets angry is reckoned as if he worships avoda zara .

Similar statements are mentioned about s’ one who is haughty .

Or even s’one who invests in his own material success and attributes his success to himself [kochi ve’otsem yadi asu li et hachayil hazeh]

Or anyone who happened to do any avera. Rav chskel levenstein attributed this to a lack of proper emuna i.e. a heresy.

Those are aggadic ‘heresies’.
Said behaviour and attitudes are frowned upon , but those people are still kasher to be edim and their wine is not nesech etc .

In other words, their problem has heresy connections, but has not reached the level of halachik heresy.
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Whereas the second type of heresy is the halachik one which

needs clear parameters and
has clear and dramatic consequences.

For example
Someone who professes belief in the unholy trinity

or professes belief in pagan g’ds .

or declares himself an atheist
r’l.

the consequences are very clear too.

Those halachik heretics forfeited their right to oilam haba.
are passul ledut

marriages and divorces are invalidated if they served as witnesses.
Even many years later.

with potential disastrous eternal results for mamzerut .

this type of halachik heresies [/ heretics ] is extremely serious.
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Somejew and his satmar cohorts are lumping both types of heresies into one big pile.

They rail against Z as if it would be totally equal to messianic xtianity lehavdil which constitutes clear halachik heresy.

The fact is that Orthodoxy as a whole has never taken Z as a halachik heresy.

There is no known orthodox community who will actually invalidate marriages and divorces if witnesses harbor Z beliefs.

But all orthodox communities will do so if witnesses harbor xtian beliefs even if only discovered decades after the facts.

Any honest observer will agree to this stark difference.

The above is in my eyes the most convincing proof that any mention of heresy in connection to Z is only polemical or only meant as agaddik heresy .

—
Besides – the second SR , even while subscribing to vy’m , which clearly labels the voters in Israels elections as people who transgress all 3 averot hamurot ,

chose to marry his own son , in to a family who is at the forefront of mass performance of said transgressions.

Which he would never do with a family promoting xtianity or atheism …….

—-

Btw.
The fact is that one could be a bona fide religious zionist nowadays without any agadic heresy either.

Notwithstanding all that, I personally think RZ is wrong .
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Did you receive my previous message ?

How many hasidic rebeim thru the course of history , studied in universities , what are their names and when did they live ?

If there are no hasidic rebbeim who did , why didn’t they ?

What would be lacking if they did ?
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reminds me of the praise satmar was showering over the assimilated jewish self-hater Kreisky , chancellor of Austria.

His averot were all nimchal [?] when he was the first western head of state to welcome the arch murderer Arafat to his palace in Vienna.

Seems like [at least some part of] satmar is quite selective about which resha’im they like to associate with ……
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@somejew

I cannot open new threads.

Whatever I write is not emotional. It is very clear and very simple.

A] My point is as follows – the words heresy and heretic are used oftentimes , but do not always mean the same thing.

I will list some examples of usage of this word and hope anyone will understand what I mean.

The first usage of the word heresy pertains in an [for lack of better word] hagadic way.

For examle Someone who gets angry is reckoned as if he worships avoda zara .

Similar statements are mentioned about s’ one who is haughty .

Or even s’one who invests in his own material success and attributes his success to himself [kochi ve’otsem yadi asu li et hachayil hazeh]

Or anyone who happened to do any avera. Rav chskel levenstein attributed this to a lack of emuna i.e. a heresy.

Those are aggadic ‘heresies’.
Said behaviour and attitudes are frowned upon , but those people are kasher to be edim and yenam is not nesech etc .

In other words, their problem has heresy connections, but is not halachik heresy.

who did I call a heretic? If I did, I can bring proofs.
What did I call “heresy”? If I did, I can bring proofs.

I am always willing to stand by my words with authoritative sources because I am not making anything up on my own rather just pointing to the Torah that we (well, some of us) got at Sinai.
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authoritative sources are not enough.

you have to first understand these sources
plus , answer – properly – how your understanding is not contradicted by :

hazal and
your own and whole of klal yisraels accepted halachik behavior.

please think about this

I will elaborate on it in a future post.

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message to qwerty

When have you last looked at the thread “I’m back 3.0” ?

somejew is asked hereby to stop calling non heresies by the name of heresies.
—-
He should stop relying on age old kol korei’s and related stories .

And start bringing iron clad proofs from chazal for his “heresy calls”.

If he calls something a heresy or someone a heretic , he has to back it up with halacha lema’aseh repercussions.

Like invalidating all marriages and divorces performed with eidim with Z sympathies.

As long as he does not do this . Or someone else of his deluded friends and followers , all his heretic type of comments are to be totally disregarded

somejew:

The whole foundation of the shalosh shevios, as well explained by the maharal is that we must maintain the gezairas hagalis and are forbidden to directly work against. Part of the gezairas hagalis are the many pogroms and violence, lo alaini, that klal yisroel suffers through. The Maharal says explicitly that even if all the non-Jews got together and told use you MUST go to eretz yisroel, rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh, and reinstate a Torah kingdom, if they did that under real threat of DEATH, chas v’shulem, if we don’t listen to them, we would STILL NOT be allowed to break the shevios and we Jews would be obligated to give up our lives instead of breaking the shevios.

To be clear, the Maharal says the obligation to keep the 3 shevios is more important than pekiach nefesh (as is obviously true for every ‘yharog val tavor’).

If my answer is not simple enough or you want to get into it more, I would request that you start a new CR thread and tr to formulate a full meaningful question that at at least tries to understand the above foundation of the Maharal that considers what you understand the answer(s) presented might be. With that, I and others can have more clarity on what you a/re missing or where your criticism might be well directed.

=====
This you want to use to mafkir damam of millions of your brothers and sisters in EY ?

Without any give and take with our greatest living rabanim ?

Is this normative halachik practise ?

Millions of piskei hiyuvei mita [r’l] in the course of two minutes of typing , being medameh milta lemilta ON YOUR OWN , based on a supposed statement of maharal on agada without even a source in the footnote ?

—
I , in your place , would be ashamed of myself ….
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This is, of course, false. When the Soviet Union fell overnight, it did not result in any deaths of millions, and most still stayed put exactly where they were (except the ones who wanted to leave to Western countries, which is perfectly possible now under the Zionists). There is no reason to expect differently here.

[katans fantasies]

—

LOL.
katan persists in parroting his blinders on approach , still living in the nineteenth century.

The world has seen many things happening since.

According to katan there was no Syrian civil butchering of each other, no civil Yemeni butchering of each other, no Iraqi , no Libyan, no Yazidi genocide…

And the list can go on.

I cannot find another title for katan than the following :

a broken tape recorder with no apparent independent thinking capabilities ….
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