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Oh hello mr somejew …
have not seen you for a long time …..
.@AAQ
…. yb quotes chazal and his rebeim in a way that sometimes run against my preconceived ideas and I disagree with his logic because of those ideas and I am looking for the logical argument to present.
—-
the above would be an accurate self description of AAQ ….
.
.AAQ changes the subject of the argument
original statement was re comparing enemy civilians’ life vs own soldiers life
so AAQ changes that to own soldiers life vs other political or personal objectives
like getting to berlin before the US or a competing soviet general ….
this is happening too often …
.
.@AAQ
… this is “nullification of democracy” when both sides reject the others as legitimate. This is not a good siman.
[aaq]—-
this a very good siman
this is a siman of honesty and calling things as they are
instead of politically correct hiding behind feel good slogans
which have no resemblance to reality
.
.
this is not a nullification of democracy at allthis the exact opposite ,
this the DEFENSE of democracy
.
.democracy is translated as ‘will of the people’
whenever nazi’s , communists or crooks masquerading as judges and attorneys, subvert the will of the people
then democracy is in mortal danger
.
.to reject the abovementioned nazi’s , communists or crooks as illegitimate
is absolutely life saving for democracy
your whitewashing of those crooks is the ultimate death knell to democracy !
you should stop your insidious attacks on democracy
.
.@ujm
@non politicalthe concept of zayin tuvei ha’ir is similar to the concept of democracy
.@AAQ
… could you in return ask people to stop saying “arrested for learning Torah”? [aaq]
——————–suggestion accepted.
we will stop saying that .
We will rather say the following true and correct statement : “arrested for dedicating their life for Torah”.
those blatant illegal summonses [or rather kidnapping threats] are the diametric opposite to a life of dedication to torah
at least in the opinion of 99 % of all torah scholars on this planet , as measured in quantity and quality
.
.seems I am winning my bet here
ujm is not responding to the clear objective understanding that staipler is not referring to the neture karta as we call them
not those from once , not those from now
he is referring to the edah people
that much is clear from the context
otherwise mr ujm , WHY IS HE SUDDENLY ADDRESSING THEM in the middle of the letter about voting ?
WHY IS HE NOT ADDRESSING THE EDAH PEOPLE ??
who are the ones who are on record to prohibit voting , and who the staipler mentions specifically in his letter ?
any answer to those questions – mr ujm ??
or are you made out of the same materiel as your compatriots katan and somejew
who only speak when their automated answering machine is working and properly preprogrammed ???
.
.@AAQ
its not a cute proof at all …
its a gross distortion and no proof whatsoever …
it sounds more like willful blindness ….
.
.those so called self appointed ‘guardians of the law’ are nothing more than corrupt and self serving ‘distorters of the law’
.
.the reason why so many are still falling for their charade
is that the so called ‘guards of democracy’ , the ‘free’ press , are
as corrupted as their brothers in crime on the plum comfortable chairs in the courtrooms and legal offices
.hope that their downfall is imminent
and will signify the restoration of power to where it legally belongs …. the innocent citizens of this country .
.bet that ujm will not address my post above
because ….
.
.@non political
in principle I agree with you
but then again I do not have access to AAQ’s private details
I know that he regularly distorts hazal and disforms their message by adding his own ‘sevarot keres’ which are against clear torah hashkafot
but I still cannot judge him re how much is meizid , how much is shogeg , and how much is stam kalut daat
because of lack of personal knowledge as mentioned
was giving him the benefit of the doubt
And AAQ’s classic diversion about negotiating is also irrelevant
what is his opinion re the status of the draftees until negotiation is finalised ?
and who says that it will be finalised at all – don’t forget the other side thinks
it has all the cards , for sure when it has AAQ as opponent …
should they enlist with the sakana to their entire yahdut over their heads ?
because of some [nonexistent] laws ?
because of some vague and privately concocted ideal about ‘half the population’ which has no real source in hazal ?
AAQ’s position is extremely weak
.
.am not sure why AAQ insists on ignoring the imperative not to enlist
i.e. the fact that a significant percentage discards religion altogether
and that the sakanah of discarding religion is enough to warrant hilul shabat according to the poskim lema’aseh
showing that this is equal in severity to pikuach nefesh lfi hahalacha
all his sevarot about laws or other parts of the population are totally baseless in comparison ….
.
.bottom line – habad are wonderful people
but hopelessly sidestep every issue they encounter …
.YY is right – this title IS gross ….
.re graduates from IDF …
I read a quote in the newspapers , coming from RZ educators themselves , saying that 30 % of their students lose their religion in the IDF
and that they still encourage their youth to enlist
because that price [of 30%] is a price worthwhile to pay for such an overarching ideal …..
—
I am shivering while typing such a crooked and outrageous statement
but there you have it
—- from their mouth themselves : it’s THIRTY PERCENT !!!
.
.@AAQ
you do not live in EY
you are not familiar with the mindset there
I do not blame you that you are naive
because you have never ‘felt it on your own skin’ ….
but at least you could have shown some humility here and acknowledge that you do not know
after all , there exist ‘known unknowns’ and on top of that also ‘unknown unknowns’
these realities are in the latter category for you
.
.
there is no need to take offense at being accused of not knowing ‘unknown unknowns’because it cannot be helped , and
no such offense was ever intended
.
.the steipler devoted every ounce of his energy and considerable intellect to one thing : to the master and discover the intricacies of the torah and to write his sefarim
all the rest – including the public statements re public policy were nothing more than an unwelcome and forced distraction
he had zero interest in differentiating between the various political positions of various groups nor about their accurate descriptions
besides , many in those times called the edah people with the title of ‘neturei karta’ …
any OBJECTIVE and UNBIASED reader of his letter , when considering the context ,
will see his objective in this letter
what was the message the steipler was conveying ?
that those who prohibit voting are chashuv , chaviv and should not change their postion.
that’s it .
vetu lo midi ….
.
.it seems from ujm’s comments that he does not want to classify as an UNBIASED observer …..
.
.bet that ujm is going to ignore the substance of my previous post re
the letter of the staipler not referring to NK but rather to the eidah
how else is ujm going to explain the letter ?
he is talking about voting – why do the NK , as opposed to the hevrei ha edah , come in there ?
am waiting for ujm’s explanation ….
.
.@aaq
you are persisting in your naivete
because … you really are
you can have access to all the books and material to be published from sheshet yemei breshit untill the very end of days
and you will still totally miss the point
as long as you do not take that one , most important point , into account
the same point all the so called peace makers in the middle east are missing
and that is …
REALITY !
instead of looking at reality from your own biased , distorted and rose colored glasses
and predicating your solutions on what you falsely perceive to the reality
you have to see reality as what it really is , instead of what you wish it to be
and only then start formulating your responses
as long as we don’t agree about the facts on the ground , meaning reality as it really is ,
we will be unable to move the discussions any further
and I will have to suffice with deploring your excessive [and willful ? ] naivete
.
.repeat :
this story – even if true – is totally irrelevant to this discussion
thats pashut even to a ten year old
.@yaakov yosef
the way I heard – cannot vouch for accuracy
that the real hasidishe yidden sat by rav kook whereas the ashkenazi yidden sat by rav sonnefeld
.
.just as reminder
everything on the list above comes from hazal and sefarim kdoshim
nothing is my own
all of the above is kasher to be used as a ‘shared foundation and starting point’ for discussion.
.somejew is continuing to equate a legitimate hatsalat nefashot activity to avoda zara
what planet is he living in ?
.
this comment of yours is overflowing with sheker , ga’ava and leitsanut
.
.Why is ujm repeating the same canard again and again , when it is obvious from the whole context of the letter that the steipler was referring to the hevrei ha ‘eda hacharedit ???
and not at all to any neturei karta
not from then , and not from now ???
.
.this story – even if true – is totally irrelevant to this discussion
thats pashut even to a ten year old
.it is clear that the yeshiva bachur when put in a forced framework like the army , experiences a yerida .
even if , and that’s not a given , if people do learn there and do daven there ,
that does not mean that they are not experiencing a yerida .
the intent of the left wing crooks who sit on the plum chairs in the court rooms and legal offices is simple
they want to remake our future educators and our future heads of households
closer to their own image
only a fool or a liar would argue against that
which in turn will guarantee the following generation
to be modified even further
even a thousand heart warming stories about mesirut nefesh on behalf of the soldiers
will not change these stark facts
this is a battle of wills
they can take away subsidies , illegally kidnap our youth , and harrass innocents on our streets
but they will never break our resolve
ki am kshei oref hu …..
.
.this is sheker vechazav
.AAQ is persisting in his naivete …..
.@AAQ
… you should also understand that the self-serving cries of Torah using non-truthful loshon is not answering the questions people have.
——-
its not self serving – its HKBH serving
its easier to blend , enlist and get a well paying job afterwards
its easier to turn into dati leumi
then to be stuck in this “black” mindset
nevertheless
they forego normal living and are happy to live bedachkut
thats not self serving – that HKBH serving
——
its not ‘questions’ which people have
its ‘terutsim’ which people have
those people cannot bear to live that way
and therefore have to find fault with the haredim
and like rav chaim brisker famously commented
“I can supply answers to questions
but I cannot supply answers to teirutsim ….. ”
.
.@AAQ
I fully concur with yaakov yosef’s post addressed to you .
.
.this gzera of forced enlistment and arrests of innocents is plainly illegal and
renders those commanding the arrests liable as kidnappers
there is no law on the books authorising those arrests
and conversely there is a law on the books regulating the deferment of torah learners
anyone believing otherwise has fallen for a fraud engineered by crooks masquerading as legal experts
.
.it was rav ch ozer rav of vilna , who merited the hakarat hatov from rav dushinsky for his appointment as rav of the edah
and it was again the same rav ch ozer who r moshe blau the then rosh hakahal of the edah was continually consulting with re the steps the edah should be taking
interesting facts to consider
.
.Why is ujm repeating the same canard again and again , when it is obvious from the whole context of the letter that the steipler was referring to the hevrei ha ‘eda hacharedit ???
and not at all to any neturei karta
not from then , and not from now ???
.
.if steipler was referring to them , how does that figure into the question of voting which is the sole and clear subject of the letter ???
it as clear as day that his intent was the chevrei haeda and
NOT the neturei karta as they are known to us , historical or contemporary
.
.@AAQ
a psak – means halachik
which means logically and traceably sourced in shas and poskim
subject to logical counter arguments and counter proofs
.
.whereas an etsah is either intuitive,
or sourced in the more ‘murky’ part of aggadeta
or mesorah received ish mipi ish
not subject to logical counter arguments and proofs
.
..
the issur of machloket does not translate into
an issur on alternative thought , or
an issur on fact based criticism
otherwise you reduce all thinking human beings into nothing more than consenting robots
.
.
so the question of sin’at hinam is totally unconnected to our discussion
.
.galut includes :
shibud malhuyot in the form of onerous taxes specifically on the jews
shibud malhuyot as they interfere with kiyum hamitsvot
lack of malhut beit david
dispersion of the yehudim all around the world
being far from EY
lacking the avoda
lacking the tahara engendered by hakravat hakorbanot
lacking the BHMK
lacking hashra’at hashechina
the tsa’ar hashchina
physical tsarot as a result of shibud malhuyot
the immense power of the se’or sheba’issa or the yetser hara
the fact that most of the world’s inhabitants are not aware of the RBSHO and his torah
lacking the required menucha needed to delve into torah properly
lacking batei din smuchim
—
that is as far as my mind goes at this moment
all of the above is included in galut
and will be restored when mashiach will come , may it be soon in our days
.
.simcha is not an evil man .
people who died to save the community in the IDF are on the level of harugei lud .
thats the written opinion of rav chaim shmulevits zatsal.
.
.have not forgotten
will post bln
.zionism is not necessarily a heresy
but that is subject of another conversation we are having on another thread
where you are still waiting for my response
.
.@yakov yosef
bet you that ujm will not answer ….
.
.@aaq
thats not a ‘gutte shailo’ at all
this is based on a simple lack of understanding
.no one in his right mind says that re missiles and hostages, no hishtadlut is required —
what they are saying is : the ‘hishtadlut’ which is specifically requested , i.e.
enrollment of our precious and impressionable youth [who will end up being the fathers and educators of the subsequent generation] into the army
will 1] make no material positive difference in the lot of the missiles and hostages anyway
and 2] will make an enormous negative difference in the essence of our precious youth in 99.999 % of the draftees
so —
even though it is true that hishtadlut in general , is required re missiles and hostages , nevertheless
said particular hishtadlut is not required by said particular youth
so —
as a result , using the general and overarching principle in yahadut , that
whenever hishtadlut by this particular person is not permitted , not possible, or not required , for whatever reason —
that person should suffice with the following – rely on, and hope for , and pray to HKBH for a speedy salvation
—
whereas in the case of stopping the immoral gzera of forced enlistment , said hishtadlut , sometimes – depending on the circumstances, is permitted
therefore as a result , again , using the general and overarching principle in yahadut , that
whenever hishtadlut by this particular person is permitted , or required ,
that person is obligated to do both —
also
rely on, and hope for , and pray to HKBH for a speedy salvation
and also
put in the required hishtadlut
.
.
this is not a contradiction at alljust two age old principles of yahadut , put into practice , in two totally different circumstances
.
.
.by the way – re funding – as far as I am aware , the demonstrations are not against the funding
they are only against the illegal kidnapping of innocent people
at the behest of biased crooks masquerading as legal experts …
.
.@aaq
we should not be ‘choosing’ at all …
all yehudim are precious
after all , doesnt it say ‘ma chazi dama didach sumak tfei” ?
and even the so called ‘insincere’ people are also included in the above
on the other hand , this does not make aberrations, part of judaism , either
.
.
.we should not be
re the hafets hayims postion re zionism
it is well known that aguda was established as a reaction to mizrachi and its willing affiliation and support of the zionist movement
hafets hayim was a leading founding member of aguda
the lack of open writings against zionism from hafes hayim ‘s side , should be attributed to tactical reasons , not to strategy
.
.@AAQ
there is no written tshuva from him re the issue you mention .
there are reports of an oral one .
that was not a psak as such , as far as I understand
that was an etsa , an advice ,
by the way , from a klal yisrael perspective , with the benefit of hindsight , it was sound advice …
.
.clear from the steiplers letter that he is referring to edah hacharedit , and
not to participants in holocaust denying conferences , nor to participants in PLO demonstrations in the 1970’s
.
.
.your last post got me to laugh
the unsavory tactics of demonstrating together with people whose hands are stained with Jewish blood
and participating in Iranian holocaust denying conferences
are considered unsavory by 99.9 % of orthodox jews
ranging across the whole spectrum , from satmar to mizrachi
from talmidei hahamim gedolim umuflagim to amharatsim gemurim
this [by the way correct] view is held by all of the above , long before my words were posted
and will stay the same after your defense of their underhanded tactics will be long forgotten already
it is not motsi shem ra , nor is it lashon hara
this is pashut to anyone who is part of the 99.9 %
.
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