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@nomesorah
original statement
C] their rebbi used references to his father in law to indirectly get messages across how others should be regarding himself.
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nomesorah
C] Possible. Again, I can’t tell for myself. You are entitled to your opinion. But I don’t see it as proof to the larger debate. It is interesting to me, that those that are obsessed with The Rebbe and those that are against him, agree on this. Those of us in the middle, aren’t so sure.
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C response] Here I am baffled. Those ‘obsessed with their rebbe’ understand what he wanted . Those ‘in the middle’ are not sure .
1] Have you read the relevant comments ?
2] If he did not use his father in law as a vehicle to influence the hasidim in re to himself – then how come that habad hasidim relate to their rebbi fundamentally different to all other groups ?
Coincidence ?
3] Again -those ‘obsessed’ , understood the message . The results are there , and the cause , not ?
My experience has shown that results do have a cause .
4] In all other habad activities their rebbi gets the credit , Just here not ? Bizarre.@ nomesorah
original post
B] habad hasidim [near]deify their rebbi , more so than any other group or sect in klal Yisrael ever.
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nomesorah
B] This is debatable. But if you change “deify their rebbe” to ‘associate their rebbe with the divine’, Then I agree. This slight wordplay, is a big difference in theology and philosophy.
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B response] The main point you left out – “MORE SO THAN ANY OTHER GROUP IN KLAL YISRAEL”
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-whether the ‘heter’ to pray to their rebbi [given by the rebbi himself],
-whether the rebbi is defined by atsmus umehus [i.e. the essence of God] clothed in a human body [again, defined by their rebbi himself] ,
-whether the rebbi is the joyful bearer of nevua mamash [again – news delivered their rebbi himself]
-whether rebbi is the ‘head’ of the klal ,as spelt in Rosh Bnei Yisrael [RBY], where the whole chiyut and life of every yehudi [not only his hasidim] is totally dependent on the habad rebbi , and if this would stop for one second their life would immediately stop. [again , told to us by their rebbi]
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Whether all of the above [and more] should be categorised as , [1] “deify their rebbe” OR as, [2] ‘associate their rebbe with the divine’, is not that important . As long as we agree on what’s IN the jar , even if we do not agree on the label.
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We can agree then – That The above is COMPLETE ANATHEMA in any other sect or group in klal yisrael .@nomesorah
original 4 statements
A] The rebbi of Habad considered himself to be the messiah.
B] habad hasidim [near]deify their rebbi , more so than any other group or sect in klal Yisrael ever.
C] their rebbi used references to his father in law to indirectly get messages across how others should be regarding himself.
D] Habad , under clear direction of their Rebbe , their rabbanim and their mashpi’im , flip flopped regarding ikarei emuna.
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Your responses one by one
A] The rebbi of Habad considered himself to be the messiah.
A] I don’t know what the Rebbe himself thought. He was very skilled at putting distance between what he said and what he implied. (I never met him and it is really hard to find people who knew him that will talk about him as a man. For opposite reasons.)
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Response A] Now , FYI – I followed your rebbis pronouncements at the time as they were coming out in Dvar Malchut 1991- 1992 . He CLEARLY AND UNEQIUVOCALLY ‘accepted’ his Messiahship ‘bestowed’ on him by his followers [after he guided them to do so] . It is all printed in the kfar habad newspaper of those times, black on white. In the dvar malchut of those times ,black on white. It was common knowledge all over the world at that time. This was the reason that ALL habad rabbanim / mashpi’im / the Chozer r yoel kahn , all without fail , signed on to his messiahship . All this is available in the archives . No need to live in the dark , no need to say ‘I dont know what the rebbi thought’ . It is CLEAR and DOCUMENTED.@sechel
When will you realize that criticism on habad theology is NOT at all the same as “finding fault in others” which is “spoken out against in almost every perek in shas,and you say it countless times in davening” .
Far from it .
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You do not want to follow a lie , or believe in a lie . For that you have to shed your naivete , and examine the issues . After that’s done and you arrived at a satisfactory conclusion , you can be naive again [a wonderful ma’ala] learn hasidut and aspire to something higher [a wonderful way of life].
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THERE IS NO CONNECTION AT ALL BTWEEN SO CALLED “HATE” AND EXAMINING MODERN HABADS CLAIMS TO MESSIAHSHIP , DIVINITY AND NEVIUT.Dear Yankel,
“The attitude of habad hasidim toward their rebbe exceeds by far , the attitude of other talmidim towards their rebbe , and even the attitude of other hasidim towards their rebbe.”
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Completely untrue. Maybe you were born yesterday. Maybe you will be born again tomorrow.That is the proper attitude of a talmid for a rebbe. Everything the rebbe says is unequivocally the Word of the Torah. (A wise student knows not to retain everything as is.) And it is only half of what was Reb Boruch Ber to Reb Chaim. The difference with Chabad is this. You can be in almost any yeshiva or chassidus and not be a talmid of the rebbe. In most places the people in the group that actually follow the leader are a minority. IN Chabad, you have to follow the rebbe. There is no being Chabad, without being a follower of the rebbe.
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Even those hasidim or talmidim [ the ‘minority ‘ in your words ] do NOT regard their rebbe as habad regards their rebbe.
It is qualitatively totally different .
Speak to even the most devoted hasid in other places , and speak to an average habad hasid , you will get different answers .
Thats besides the difference you mentioned about ‘being habad without their rebbe’
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Why is that ?
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Isnt it a RESULT OF the habad rebbes pronouncements about what a Rebbe is ?
Isnt it a RESULT OF habads importance of having his pictures everywhere ?
Isnt it A RESULT OF their rebbes instructions to visualise the rebbe whenever something is difficult ?
Isnt it A RESULT OF their rebbes pronouncements regarding his father in law , meant to take effect by his hasidim regarding himself ?
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You agreed for the need for reality and honesty . Can you be realistic AND honest and still tell me that those details mentioned before are NOT CONNECTED ?
And if not , why not ?
[They say in the name of R Chaim MiBrisk – If you have 3 Kushiyot with an option of 3 Teirutsim or another option with one Teiruts for all the Kushiyot , It is the one Teiruts which is the correct one ….]Dear Yankel,
“The attitude of habad hasidim toward their rebbe exceeds by far , the attitude of other talmidim towards their rebbe , and even the attitude of other hasidim towards their rebbe.”
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Completely untrue. Maybe you were born yesterday. Maybe you will be born again tomorrow.That is the proper attitude of a talmid for a rebbe. Everything the rebbe says is unequivocally the Word of the Torah. (A wise student knows not to retain everything as is.)
AND IT IS ONLY HALF OF WHAT R BORUCH BER WAS TO HIS REBBE …..
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1] Even R Boruch Ber did not deify his Rebbe .
2] His Rebbe R Chaim had NO PART WHATSOEVER in r BB ‘s respect toward him . It was TOTALLY on r BB’s part .
3] R BB ‘s respect toward his Rebbe was an outgrowth of his immense Tsidkut in ALL OTHER AREAS of yahadut . Likewise he was IMMENSELY scared of chet . He was IMMENSELY absorbed in his learning , in his kibbud av , in his chesed etc. etc. — His respect was merely a REFLECTION of his inner stature , not the result of some targeted brainwash.
4] R BB was a yachid . There is NO other sector in klal yisrael , as a klal ,comparable to habad . To reject that, is like rejecting the existence of the sun .To Qwerty.
thanks@nomesorah
Dear Yankel,
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“Re
used socks
Please check the original post .
It was not referring to hasidic socks at all .It was referring to changing IKAREI EMUNA , things which are the ABSOLUTE FOUNDATIONS of our belief , like used socks ”
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I take exception to your posts having anything to do with Ikarei Emunah.
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Dear NOm
Please check the following post [the above post was referring to the following post]. There is a clear reference to ikarei emuna there ….
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…… Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .Lets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning , [1] the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Mitnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then [2] it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .
My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?
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Am really looking forward to a point on point , honest discussion on each of the above ‘steps’ .
Can we safely assume that in case of no [adequate] response – the Klal of Shtika KeHoda’a would apply ?the bris thing was directed by The Rebbe. [CS]
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There you are. The personality and picture ‘deification’ WAS directed by their rebbe.
Not by any of the previous rebbes .
Not by any of the other habad dynasties – kapust liadi etc .
Not by the Malachim .
Not by the Rashag , had he not capitulated , and had he continued with his leadership as his mother in law , the rabbanit Shneerson [the wife of the Rayats] wanted him to .
.
All the others did not have any messianic aspirations .
That is the difference .
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As simple as can be .Nomesorah has to face up to certain facts.
If he cannot face up to them he will be living in denial and shlep all of us with him .A] The rebbi of Habad considered himself to be the messiah.
B] habad hasidim [near]deify their rebbi , more so than any other group or sect in klal Yisrael ever.
C] their rebbi used references to his father in law to indirectly get messages across how others should be regarding himself.
D] Habad , under clear direction of their Rebbe , their rabbanim and their mashpi’im , flip flopped regarding ikarei emuna.These are 4 statements which , please answer – unambiguously
– AGREE , DO NOT AGREE / WHY
Slowly and methodically . Point by point . Dispassionately. With Moach Shalit Al HaLev.
Thanks@nomesorah
You are an EXPERT in changing topics and leaving real unanswered questions with the illusion of an answer.
Should compile all question raised in this thread , match them one by one with answers .
Read them carefully.
The result might resemble … a comedy .So do I assume you accidentally posted under the wrong screenname again?
It’s one per customer
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Its all under the one name , always used . Never ever used more than one .
Its Yankel Berel , and that’s it .This discussion seems to be going around and around , without ‘to the point’ answers .
Just A quick repeat of a previous post – and a short question – which one of the details below are incorrect ?
1] Please post the incorrect details [if there are]
2] If on the other hand they are correct – please can we have an answer why this is not a Reiuta in habad s Chazaka ?
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Lets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning , [1] the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Mitnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then [2] it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .
My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?
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Am really looking forward to a point on point , honest discussion on each of the above ‘steps’ .
Can we safely assume that in case of no [adequate] response – the Klal of Shtika KeHoda’a would apply ?To the group.
Nomesorah is taking us all on a wild goose chase . We are touring Europe , with him as a guide .
Not sure what the connection to habad is , however ……
Hope this is not an attempt to throw some sand in our collective eyes ……So do I assume you accidentally posted under the wrong screenname again?
It’s one per customer
@menachem
Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?#2214125
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Cant find it . Suppose it exists .
If Menachem would be so kind to paste his response in full ….In my opinion at least , if you spearhead a movement , clearly in theology at odds with the rest of klal yisrael [no other part of klal yisrael champions mashiach from the dead like them , no one near-deifies their leader like them ] ,and at odds with what THEY THEMSELVES were proclaiming for years , its only fair to expect , anticipate and therefore accept , that you are opening yourself up to genuine and open examination of your shitot , their roots ,their essence and their consequences . That should all be part of the game .
And that as grownups, they should be able to hear any legitimate taanot and FORMULATE TO THE POINT RESPONSES head on ,without hiding behind changes of topic or other similar tactics .REPEAT – NO ANSWER GIVEN or even attempted yet ….
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@ menachem
We can’t agree that we need Moshiach since I hold that many tzaddikim have had nevuah after חגי זכריה מלאכי!?
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Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?
And source corroborating their nevua as valid ?
Was it widely accepted in Klal Yisrael ?
Thanks in advance for the forthcoming details .It seems futile to debate Habad hasidim on this site .
They do not seem to hear at all what you are getting at .
Or maybe they do hear, but intentionally divert the discussion to a different topic .
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Bottom line is – criticism is not hate.
Criticism is legitimate .
Habad ‘s theology is controversial at best .
And if something they introduced is controversial , it is up to them to explain it in a satisfactory manner , which they have not done yet .
.
Nomesorah is alleging in response that gur hasidim changed ikarei emuna more than habad .
Ikarei emuna ? In what way ?
.@nomesorah
in order to have a proper debate we need some prerequisites
1] reality
2] honesty
3] straight logic and commonsense
4] torah logic
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have not detected sufficient amount of the first 3 yet . but am happy if you would convince me of the opposite . re the fourth I can’t comment yet .Remember listening to the kenes of hachtarat Mashiach on the radio , heard the tfillat arvit straight after the kenes , remember thinking to myself – that ‘s what we waited for 2000 years ?
When Mashiach comes – that is the type of tfillah we are going to have ?
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Maybe for 14 Adar he can be Mashiach .
After thinking it through , no even for that date not …
.@ menachem
We can’t agree that we need Moshiach since I hold that many tzaddikim have had nevuah after חגי זכריה מלאכי!?
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Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?
And source corroborating their nevua as valid ?
Was it widely accepted in Klal Yisrael ?
Thanks in advance for the forthcoming details .@ menachem
[I would just like to repeat an analogy that I used before: Someone reads antisemitic literature with some “shockingly hateful” statements from the Talmud. He approaches the Talmudic scholar and says, “I can’t believe you study this terrible book.” The scholar responds, “You have only read a few lines out of context……]
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The hater who hates the talmud, hated the talmud and the Jews before he found the relevant quote .
In my case , the ta’anot against modern habad started only with and because modern habads ‘innovations’.
But that s not the main point .
.
The main point is the following –
There is no context here re the question whether your rebbi meant his father in law only , or also alluded to himself . What RELEVANT context is there to add ?
.
The only relevant context I can see here is – THE CLEAR RESULTS of those pronouncements about his father inlaw as expressed in his hasidim in their own attitude towards him …
Which only pushes it further to the correct interpretation .
The attitude of habad hasidim toward their rebbe exceeds by far , the attitude of other talmidim towards their rebbe , and even the attitude of other hasidim towards their rebbe.
Is that happenstance ?
Considering the evidence , not .@menachem
“Okay, you’re right. I am a Lubavitcher so I am biased, so I have no right to defend Lubavitch. Only those who disagree with Lubavitch have the right to defend it. You are completely objective, as you only care about truth, so all your attacks on Lubavitch must be true, and my defenses are worthless.Your interpretations of what the Rebbe meant trump mine, despite the fact that you barely learned any of his teachings, while I learned thousands of pages of his teachings, and heard hundreds of hours of his talks. As a matter of fact, the more I study, the more biased I become, and the less of an ability I have to understand his teachings.”
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What your rebbe meant or did not mean , i.e. as pshat in his words is NOT the issue here .
.
The issue is whether he had ANOTHER MOTIVE , as in the desired effect of his words on his followers ,all the while outwardly keeping to the literal meaning of the words , which is AXIOMATICALLY hard to accept for a devoted follower [hasid] . [that he would manipulate his hasidim ]
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This is not an issue of the kesef mishna and the magid mishna sparring over the true intent of the rambam where one could use your yardstick .
Here the question is – did he mean his father in law ONLY , or did he also allude to himself ?
This is the question , and the only question .
.
Interestingly , the answer to this question , should come [but in a different way you intimated] from those who spent like you said ‘countless hours listening and learning his words ‘ i.e. his real hasidim .
BeZot Tibochenu : DID HIS HASIDIM TAKE IT AS PERTAINING ONLY TO HIS FATHER IN LAW ? OR DID THEY APPLY IT FULLY TO HIMSELF TOO ?
The answer is obvious , but to the willfully blind that is .
Clear as day , they fully applied it as pertaining to himself .
So the answer is provided not by me , not I am saying this .
The actions of the hasidim themselves speak volumes .
He WAS referring to himself .
.
This analysis you could not write . Not because it is beneath your intellect ,which I do not doubt.
But because of your bias . Which you are proud of , and rightfully so .
But which stops you from making an objective analysis of your own mentors words .
Like a son who cannot sit in judgement on his own father , even though he spends countless hours learning his fathers words .@ Menachem
I think that we need Mashiach now …. the REAL one .“This is one thing we both agree on.”
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Not at all sure we can agree on this one . For obvious reasons .
You have a so called ‘Nevua’ from the navi [which is included in the Shlosha Asar Minor Nevi’im] , regarding Biat HaMashiach.
. Whereas I do not .
For me [and 98% of Klal Yisrael] it still is the Trei Asar minor Nevi’im .
Which causes REAL DIFFERENCES re who the REAL MASHIACH could or could not be .
A real big issue ,
A big issue which is not going to disappear by good natured banter , nor by sidestepping this issue by referring to other points.
Hope this is not of the causes of the beginning of a real Schism in Klal Yisrael.
Thats the last thing we need now.
Question remains – Do we have 12 or 13 Minor Prophets ?
We have to hash it out and come to Klal Yisrael wide accepted Maskana.
A clear, level headed , unbiased , proof based discussion is urgently needed.@menachem
Thanks for offering your friends to write [without bias] .
You seem to be missing the point again . Did your friends change to habad BECAUSE and as A RESULT of these issues , or they changed because of ‘other good things’ they saw in habad ? Think its the latter .The former are not a catalyst to change towards habad.
So when it comes to those issues , they are biased . Biased by the other ‘good things’ they think they derive from habad .
1] To doubt the leader , axiomatically includes [in the mind of most people] also doubting his other lessons and hadracha. Which they are loath to accept . And which they are clearly programmed to reject [the real purpose of the near deification – or the deification of their leader , depending on the observer] , one of the clear purposes of the ‘whistling’ mentioned before.
2] Once you are part of a movement , you identify with it . Your personality gets enmeshed with the movement , its leader and its ideals .
Criticism of the movement is automatically perceived as criticism of the person himself .Which triggers an automated defense mechanism .
Hardly conducive to level headed thinking and analysis.
So when analyzing whether the ‘current’ rebbi of habad did or did not use references to his father in law [the original issue raised on these pages] as a means to hint to himself . It will be the unbiased people who are most qualified to reach a correct conclusion.
The biased people do not even seem to grasp the mere existence of the issue at all .
On all the main issues I raised here on this thread , I did not seem to get any to the point answers . Only sidestepping or their wholesale ignoring .@Qwerty
Th.
What is the Kiss Method ?
@menachem
-Is there anything still happening with the point I raised about ‘bias ‘ ?
-Do not think you thought for one minute That I took the phaiphing personal , they were not phaiphing at us as people , but they were phaiphing at any challenge to their derech , wherever that derech might still take them in the future ….
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Btw – that other religion started of , totally Jewish , separated itself from Judaism and emerged as a totally separate one .
Now, that did not happen overnight . It is my understanding that the break was finalized some 300 years later . Maybe not 300 years but close to it . It was a slow process .
I don’t think habad is a repeat of that other one , but in my lifetime I saw the goalposts moving in a quite remarkable way.
Who can know what the end result is going to be ?
When the moving started ,I would not be able to predict that we would be standing where we are now . And yet here we are.
So how can we safely predict where the goalposts will be in 50 years from now ?
the only difference is that their rebbi is not here to move the posts further …. but who can predict what [some] hasidim are going to do ?
I think that we need Mashiach now …. the REAL one .Re
used socks
Please check the original post .
It was not referring to hasidic socks at all .It was referring to changing IKAREI EMUNA , things which are the ABSOLUTE FOUNDATIONS of our belief , like used socks .
Someone who is willing to discard and change IKAREI EMUNA for conveniences sake
1] is delivering a ringing slap right in the face of millions of maaminim through the generations who lived a life of mesirat nefesh mamash to uphold just those ikarei emuna .
2] Thats besides the immense chizuk a certain religion, bent on soul snatching , preferably Jewish soul snatching , is getting for the propagation of their false messiah and his second coming …
3] All That is besides losing ones Chezkat Kashrut when it comes to trusting them ever again in this field until and unless a thorough and complete overhaul is conducted, pinpointing how and why such aberrations occurred and what will be done to stop it from ever happening again .Changing Ikarei Emuna is much much more than , lehavdil, changing the Constitution of the United States . Imagine if some people would sneak in to the place where the original document is housed , change the text and then claim that their text is the correct one and that all US affairs are to be conducted according to the new text .
Can you imagine the chaos and turmoil this would engender ?To the Group
A careful read of the comments reveals that all the habad defenders have one thing in common . They are swept up in the benefits of their movement ,coupled with explicit lifelong conditioning from their rebbi to totally ignore any criticism of their movement .
That is leading them to ignore the crux of the issues raised, and instead focus on other tangent unrelated points which serve as a smokescreen enabling them to avoid the points raised.
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Just a small question – when their rebbe told his hasidim to “phaiph” , who do you think they were phaiphing on ?
They were phaiphing on us , on our criticism of habad . On our questions .
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So is it any wonder that they seem to be ,excuse the expression, “hard of hearing” , when it comes to criticism .
Their rebbe did a good job , they are well prepared.
Please habad hasidim , this is not meant to upset you , you are wonderful people and you are to be admired for the manifold qualities you embody .
But that does not make those issues disappear.@nomesorah
“Though I can’t place my finger on where we disagree. What is your point about Chabad?”
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Please read my posts . Hope it is clear enough ….
.To the group –
Read Nomesorahs arguments on this thread . It seems like their only purpose is to distract from the issues raised here ….
Sorry this is not personal . You might very well be a terrific individual in real life …@menachem
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between your bias and my [supposed] bias . Yours PREDATED the issue , whereas mine [in your eyes] is a RESULT of this issue .
We are discussing the issue. I am saying that your response to the issue is colored by your PREEXISTING bias , whereas my response has no pre existing bias .
The difference is so simple that it is mind boggling that an [ostensibly ] moderate habad supporter like you would ignore it .@ menachem
I used to be naive , but made a uturn on this .Why?
Because you studied and listened to so many of his talks that you realized what he really meant?
Or because you heard so many one-line excerpts of his statements?
Or because you heard so much anti-Chabad rhetoric?
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None of the above .
It probably a result of my maturing and seeing the world as it is and not as I would like it to be , combined with the weight of the evidence ..
[btw Listening to his talks is irrelevant to this question]@menachem
‘Think that your being a hasid of his , precludes you of objectivity in this regardI can say the same about you being a misnaged.’
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Wrong . I was not a misnaged. Far from it . I Was an Omed Min HaTsad. Did not understand what all those people wanted from habad . And had sympathy for the [apparent] victim of unwarranted accusations.
Nevertheless came to that conclusion.
So it seems that you agree that you are not qualified ?
as your only rejoinder is that I wasn’t any better ?
Suggest you study all the utterances [and their effects on the hasidim] FROM A NEUTRAL STANCE , [or even better – imagine satmar or rav shach would have said them] and tell us – honestly –
whether naivete in this case corresponds to the objective truth ….@ always ask
Habad claimed back in 1991 that their rebbi performed that feat by predicting that NO ONE in Israel would be harmed in the first gulf war .
Which serves as ironclad proof that he is a Navi .
ounded
. They conveniently forgot that Jewish lawyer in Petah Tiqva who died from a direct missile hit , not to mention countless others who indirectly died as a result of the missiles , in addition to the many Jewish wounded.
Rambam – “ALL details of prediction have to come fruition . Even a small detail cant be omitted.”
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If that would be a proof , then it should serve as qualification for the opposite of a navi emet and its results ….@nomesorah
‘We don’t do this with Gur, Satmar, or any other group, that has way less tradition and is even farther out there’
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Come on … This is so ridiculous , its not even funny .
You not even getting it after 20 pages …
Gur and Satmar ? Have they changed Ikarei Emuna like used socks ?
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Tradition ?
Come on….
What tradition is there in Neo habad ? Argument is NOT about the old parts of habad . Its about the NEW parts . There is no tradition on those whatsoever.
There is a tradition AGAINST them ….@menachem
“All those things you quoted were actually said about his father-in-law. His anivus was so great, that he never publicly called himself the Rebbe. He constantly said that the Rebbe and nossi was his father-in-law.”
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Careful and objective perusal of ALL his referrals to his shver troughout his hanhaga , show that he DID use referral to his Shver as a convenient vehicle to hint to himself . I used to be naive , but made a uturn on this .
Think that your being a hasid of his , precludes you of objectivity in this regard …@nomesorah
Re public learning of nistar thru the generations …..
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1] What does it say in Masechta Hagiga re being doresh be maaseh merkava ? In front of how many people ?
2] What does the Shach , on the foremost Leaders of Klal Yisrael, say about Limud HaKabala , in his Peirush on Hilchot Talmud Torah in YD ?
3] Is Midrash classified as Nistar ? Or as Nigleh ? Was my post regarding Nistar meant to include Midrash or exclude it ?
4] Was one of the reasons the early hasidim were put in herem bec of popularizing kabala to all, as opposed to the select few Talmidei Chachamim as until then ?
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Think about the answers to those questions …..@nomesorah
“You left out 2a 2b 2c 2d 2e 2f 2g and so on. Which is almost all the other Rebbes and other Gedolim putting their weight on the Lubavitcher Rebbe being moshiach…..”
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Cryptic. What exactly are you referring to ?
.@lostspark
The issue is not “the plus or the minus of learning chasidut” .
The issue is habad theology , its acrobatics , its sources , its merit and its repercussions .
There is nothing to read which will undo those acrobatics .
It is a failed theology .Main point is not “yes kabala not kabala”
Widespread accessibility and delving into kabala is a fact anyway. .
Point to be taken now , is learning and delving into it with an ASSURANCE that one understands it properly , ask questions , come up with answers , bring proofs etc. in an absolute manner like in nigleh . That is mistaken and dangerous , in my view at least .
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The Gaon says that of all talmidie ARI , only r chaim vital understood the nimshal . Being that the Ari when discoursing about kabala , only said what he wanted to convey , in the form of a mashal , not the nimshal itself .
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Thats where habad is going haywire . They approach it with the full self assurance typically associated with their other activities .
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Anything not within our clearly accepted mesorah from our great grandparents, “proven” by habad of the last 70 years , based on kabala , is suspicious.
Refer to my previous post where you can see habad theological acrobatics on display .
Each twist and each turn was at the time supported by myriad “proofs” , with footnotes and what have you . With beautiful convincing language.@CS
Re emuna in Moshe Rabenu –
Gaon from Vilna explains this very simply –
They had Emuna that Moshe’s actions and words were fully grounded in in his Avdut . In the fact that he is merely an Eved ,a servant . With no personal interests , no illusions of personal grandeur. As a result they could rest assured that his message which he brought to the Yidden was pure Dvar HaShem ,unadulterated.
The emuna was not in Moshe . The emuna was in his Avdut.@ nomesorah
…. classical pitfalls of learning Kabbalah apply here. Chabad ignores practical Kabbalah which was the downfall of Sabbtai Tzvi and others. They are not studying the intense devotions that risk ones mental state. It isn’t really much different than other groups hashkafos ……
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You are either not getting it or ignoring on purpose . Would suggest you reread the relevant post slowly and carefully …..@ Nomesorah
The break over theology was first . Their breaking observance was a REACTION to our rejection of their theology .
Inform yourself.Vilna Gaon has an explanation on Emuna in Moshe.
Runs opposite to what habad would want it to be .Lets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning , [1] the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Mitnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then [2] it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .
My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?
Caveat – They are wonderful people ,just theologically mistaken .You misunderstood me . Am not taking issue with habad learning nistar , perse.
Am only trying to explain the tendency in Habad to advocate for all types of convenient [for them] but outlandish theological ideas.
Am only tracing the dots .@Qwerty
No delusions to get anyone to change –
This is a correct observation – Mentioned before that Habad Hassidim are explicitly instructed by their rebbe the following :
In every argument you should act with Ahavat yisrael , manners and respect . But in your own mind , in your own pnimiyut , you should give credence to your opponents arguments , LESS THAN KLIPAT HASHUM .
So the habad hassidim who would be swayed by any of your arguments are in direct contradiction to their own rebbi . Totally untenable.
Are they special people ? Meaning :good , sincere ,non judging, accepting, joyful , ready for mesirat nefsh ? Most definitely .
Is their theology sorely mistaken ? Most definitely .
Both of those statements are not contradictory. Not at all .Hello ….