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You misunderstood me . Am not taking issue with habad learning nistar , perse.
Am only trying to explain the tendency in Habad to advocate for all types of convenient [for them] but outlandish theological ideas.
Am only tracing the dots .@Qwerty
No delusions to get anyone to change –
This is a correct observation – Mentioned before that Habad Hassidim are explicitly instructed by their rebbe the following :
In every argument you should act with Ahavat yisrael , manners and respect . But in your own mind , in your own pnimiyut , you should give credence to your opponents arguments , LESS THAN KLIPAT HASHUM .
So the habad hassidim who would be swayed by any of your arguments are in direct contradiction to their own rebbi . Totally untenable.
Are they special people ? Meaning :good , sincere ,non judging, accepting, joyful , ready for mesirat nefsh ? Most definitely .
Is their theology sorely mistaken ? Most definitely .
Both of those statements are not contradictory. Not at all .Hello ….
1]Question remains – Baal Hatanya is not called Nosi Hador . Neither is the Mitteler . Nor the tsemach Tseddeq. Not the Rashab.
Not the Habad Rebbeim from the other dynasties . Niyezin and Liadi etc.
2] many people coming …. is not an answer to anything. I know many people following many things which not necessarily are right and/ or correct ….For thousands of years – since matan torah – we had one thing and one thing only- in our public domain. Nigleh . Even though Nistar is an integral part of the torah , it was not in the public domain . this started to change from the time of the publication of the Zohar , the earlier Mekubalim, the Ari and his disciples , but was mainly popularised since the advent of the Baal Shem and his talmidim .Now i want to posit a theory which may get some of you up in arms , but I think may be correct.
The reason why the Baal Shem [and disciples] popularised it ,was to rejuvenate the Avodat HaShem of its learners , to bring a fire , a life into them . Which was lacking previously . In which they succeeded.
So the purpose of that limud was not as a kiyum of mitsvat talmud torah and yediat hatorah, rather for its EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS
But not in order that they should become experts in the ‘Dak al Dak understanding’ of Nistar in the real , true and accurate sense , like klal yisrael was in limud nigleh for all the centuries since matan torah.
Habad was the only one which took it a step further . The early habad Rebeim advocated for their followers to delve into Nistar as close as possible to the real ‘dak al dak understanding ‘.
But that was , in my humble opinion at least, also only in order to further their Avodat Hashem .FOR ITS EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS, For exactly the same reason as the other talmidei baal shem .
What followed, when the generations passed, was , the emergence of an ‘illusion’ in habad that they do have a true and accurate dak al dak understanding of nistar , of its terminology , of what its words really mean , in the EXACT SAME WAY klal yisrael did for the last 3333 years in nigleh. Nigleh ,which was not only learned for its results on the learner , but for a clear absolute understanding of the torah
Therefore , considering this background , it is much easier in habad to use all types of nistar for ‘proofs’ for any outlandish new theory one would want to advance , convinced as they are that they are true conveyors of the accurate understanding of nistar .
They [and we] should remember that the true purpose of its limud was meant FOR THE EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS , not for a true and foolproof accuracy, which can afterwards be used to try and be medame milsa lemilsa , etc. because the true and accurate understanding remains elusive even if explained and packaged in the nicest and most appealing wrapping paper .
I think that this is a fault line between habad and the rest of klal yisrael.
Not the only one . One of the fault lines.@arso
Thanks .
Btw. When you think about it – the ‘double language’ employed [numerous times] when discussing the Shver [Frierdiker Rebbe] and their present Rebbe, serves the same purpose .
A hunch only , have no proof for it .
But there is a clear pattern .@qwerty
LOL.No one has explained the “constant glitching” of Habad theologically . Since the last rebbe took the mantle of leadership, that is . It seems like there was a constant ‘probing’ of the temperature , how far one can go , and still be accepted [by the chassidim and mainly] in the wider orthodox community. So what we ended up with was a sort of gradual ‘Climate Change’ .
slowly [and surely] the public was conditioned to accept one ‘chidddush’ , preparing the way for the acceptance of the next one.
Reminds me – lehavdil – of the gradual Judicial Revolution by the Israeli Supreme Court from 1992 onwards [, with apparent success].
If they would introduce their ‘end chidush’ at the beginning , they would be greeted by howls of outrage .
But over the years the public’s mind was conditioned , step by step.“….The hope that the people of the world will recognize that they’re under the reshus of the tzaddik.”
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This is terrible . The Baal Hatanye was not Nosi HaDor . Nor was the Baal shem Tov . None of them were called by that title .
This is a RECENT Habad appellation to their leader , putting him above everyone else . They are trying to acclimatize all of us , our [gullible] minds into slowly accepting his so called “malchus” .
He is what he is . the leader of the habad chassidim .
That is an accurate reflection of reality.
The rest is hyperbole or propaganda .
Or Better said – both .@Querty
I am a proper black hatter but admire your courage and honesty.
Have a look at the Boston University School of Theology . Their website ,where they compare habad theology to lehavdil other religions in their beginners faze . Google it.
Eye opening .@nomesorah
Seems like there was an agenda .
Used to defend habad for many years , but made a u turn , in face of the developments over the years .
Still defend habad for all their qualities.
But they are definitely misguided .rav shach crticized habad already in the sixties , it went public in the eighties.
hello ?
in my mind this whole conversation is fruitless [bar one benefit]
Habad followers have been instructed by their rebbe that in all arguments about belief with non habad , to give credence to the other side ‘less than klipat hashum’. Understandably only bedarkei noam , with ahavat yisrael. I saw it printed in the name of their rebbe . In one of their publications . So why would you suspect a bona fide sincere follower to disregard his own rebbes directive ? Whatever you say to him is ….
Tthe only benefit is to balance the argument for the uninitiated .correction-
@sechel
Mitnaged ; let’s have an open no holds barred discussion about the personality , education , formative years , and end of life public pronouncements, including a step by step discussion of all the details of r shimon deutsh s book [and ashkavte drebi of r rivkin hyd
Chassid : No . These details are banned .
Better to concentrate on all the propaganda . About which our manhig said – chazaka al ta’amula she’ena chozeret rekam.
Mitnaged : but about the leaders of all the other groups of Jews you do encourage such an open no holds barred discussion ? What’s the difference ?
Chassid : This question only reveals your ignorance . Our manhig is TOTALLY different to all the other leaders of jews . He is Mashiach . He is greater than Moshe Rabenu . Atsmut umehut of HKBH is resting within his holy Guf [a’l] . How can you even compare ?
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Which detail mentioned here is incorrect ?@sechel
Mitnaged ; let’s have an open no holds barred discussion about the personality , education , formative years , and end of life propagation of personal self aggrandizement of the founder of your personality cult , including a step by step discussion of all the details of r shimon deutsh s book [and ashkavte drebi of r rivkin hyd
Chassid : No . These details are banned .
Better to concentrate on all the propaganda . About which our manhig said – chazaka al ta’amula she’ena chozeret rekam.
Mitnaged : but about the leaders of all the other groups of Jews you do encourage such an open no holds barred discussion ? What’s the difference ?
Chassid : This question only reveals your ignorance . Our manhig is TOTALLY different to all the other leaders of jews . He is Mashiach . He is greater than Moshe Rabenu . Atsmut umeut of HKBH is resting within his holy Guf [a’l] . How can you even compare ?
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Which detail mentioned here is incorrect ?Our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
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Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
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WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
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Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
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Again – this thread is another ploy in furthering the ‘candidacy’ of someone whose followers have a vested interest of promoting .This thread is a fig leaf intended to cover
1] for close to neo notsri belief systems
2] for close to neo notsri personal veneration
3] for treating ikarei emuna like socks – to be changed and discarded when convenient .
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None of the minhagim or kulot of the yeshiva world , irrespective whether they do have merit, or are lacking merit , are touching any of the above issues .
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So let the objective reader judge for himself – is the intended cover – a cover ?
Or only a “see through cover” , essentially uncovering those 3 problematic issues ?@avira
which sefer – what page ?
it does not negate what I quoted re name of mashiachWHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
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Sounds quite MITNAGDISH , no ?
As mentioned in previous post – this is written by the founder of Habad Hasidut !
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Habad hasidim are not taken aback by this . Because if their Rebbe is greater than Moshe Rabenu , why should he not be greater than the Baal Hatanya ?
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So the lesson to be learnt is – Absolute futility to bring proof or debate a Habad Hasid on theology . simply because their rebbe [in their own eyes] is greater than any source which could be used to prove or disprove his shita.
Debating them is an exercise in futility.
We should love them , respect them , but not debate them .This whole thread is a reflection of modern Habads influence and brainwash .
our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
.
Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
.
WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
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Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
But who cares about tanya anymore …. We will cherry-pick only what suits us …..The BIGGEST SOURCE – IN HABADS EYES – That Mashiach is only from the live people is HABAD ITSELF . Wall to wall , pre 1996.
Since when is Habad itself , not acceptable to Habad ????
Any Answers , anyone ?????@menachem
Not trying at all –
merely relaying information EXACTLY as I heard it .
not more and not less .
read all the maasiyot he writes – it is definitely possible , maybe even probable.@sechel
Correction – not pre 96 .
It should read pre 94 instead.@Sechel
I am still waiting for a Habad chassid to be honest and acknowledge that Mashiach from Chaim only , was ‘official Habad Policy’ ,supported and endorsed by ALL HABAD RABBANIM AND MASHPIIM pre that fateful 3 tamuz day .
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It seems that ‘phaiphing on the world’ includes phaiphing on ‘habad pre 1996’ too ?
Habad pre 96 also qualifies as Habad – or not ?
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If that was good for Habad pre 96, than it is also good for the rest of Klal Yisrael ….
.This whole thread is a reflection of modern Habads influence and brainwash .
our Greatgrandfathers & mothers were not busy with “candidates” for Mashiach . And nor should we.
Rambam wasnt busy with it . Bet Yosef was not . Rama was not . Baal HaTanya was not . and Ben Ish Chai was not either .
.
Cf Tanya ,were he says [free translation ]
.
WHERE IS THAT NEW MINHAG COMING FROM – SOMETHING OUR FOREFATHERS NEVER KNEW – TO ASK A TSADIK WHERE ONES PARNASAH IS COMING FROM ? THE TSADIK DOESNT KNOW THAT ! LIKE HE DOES NOT KNOW WHO MASHIACH IS , HE ALSO DOES NOT KNOW WHERE A MANS PARNASAH WILL COME FROM AS BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE ONE OF THE SEVEN THING WHICH ARE MECHUSIN MIBNE ADAM ! THE ONLY TACHLIT OF GOING TO A TSADIK IS ONLY IN ORDER TO HEAR, WHERE AND HOW THE PETITIONER CAN IMPROVE IN HIS AVODAT HASHEM …..
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Clear from Tanyas words that all of this is mere speculation , non productive and frowned upon .
But who cares about tanya anymore …. We will cherry-pick only what suits us …..@ avira
He would quote tanya without reservation.
So – Not Mitnaged to hasidut .
Maybe to present Day Habad , – yes .@menachem
Heard from Gur Hasidim that the many Sipurim from Rayats are sourced from what he heard when very young from the women who tended to him in those years , and hence are unreliable.
Anyways ,satmar rav used to mock those who based their belief on maasiyot.Habad are really Nice guys .
But it is totally ridiculous .
Such a Pity.Edited
people who can blithely change what to them was one of the ikarei emunah to suit themselves, never had an ounce of emunah. Not beforehand and not afterwards.
WELL SAID !
@Zaphod
they are an integral part bec they believe in ikarei emuna and are mizera yisrael , but in way of thinking , how to develop an argument , what is considered a valid argument , what is not considered a valid argument,
and MOST IMPORTANTLY whether we can and should be choker after someone who was controversial [meaning some rabbanim disapproved of him ] COUPLED with the fact that part of his yerousha ruchanit was controversial , and should you be choker whether those two thing are connected or not – in that there is no common ground whatsoever .#any kugel left.
Habad ITSELF denied the possibility of Mashiach from the dead – not the so called mitnagdim . .
For many years [when it was convenient] Their Rabbanim Maspiim , their newspaper loudly proclaimed this .
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Now it seems convenient to hold of Mashiach from the dead.
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For many more years then not , they OUTRIGHT DENIED that Habad holds their leader as Mashiach . Those who quoted that habad designated their leader as mashiach were GUILTY OF SIN’AT CHINAM , and MOTSI SHEM RA and did so only out of hate and jealousy. They are guilty of being full of YESHUT and GA’AVA , and therefore try to blacken habads face .
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PLEASE – WHERE IS BASIC HONESTY ?Same was argued in defense of J and Mo –
[by the Rambam]
I would search for better company ….#sechel
you conveniently left out the brackets there in tanya – for an apikorus there should be ONLY sinah . Tachlis Sin’ah ….#avira
correction . R weintraub was not a misnaged against chasidsm.There is kimat no point in arguing with habad hasidim .
Kol ba’eha lo yeshuvun .
ANY ARGUMENT HAS TO START WITH SOME COMMON GROUND . whereon the sides can base themselves on .THERE IS NO THEOLOGICAL COMMON GROUND HERE.
they are an integral part of klal yisrael , our brothers , but any argument is fruitless .
We have to – for our own sake – clarify where they come from , how they evolved , what were the driving factors behind their evolvement ,what they really believe , who and what they really worship , what the possible future developments could be.
We should be mekarev them not any less than any other yid , but still clearly and loudly call out their misguided ideology whenever it is mentioned.
Any argument with them , where they repeat their own circular ‘proofs’ of their shitah ,only serves to harden their beliefs and lends a veneer of legitimacy to their mistaken ideology.sechel 83
If so –
What was haredi about Rav Yakov Emden ,the Pne Yehoshua, the Gra , the Divre Hayim [from Sans] ?#Rso
If you’re right, then clearly he had an agenda. and all the non-Lubavich apologists who blame the chassidim for their crazy views, and not the rebbe, have it completely wrong!
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It is clear . To any objective , non naive observer . Crystal clear . There most definitely was an agenda .
No ifs , no buts .He had an agenda , that seems obvious .
When I advocated an open discussion about the ORIGINATOR of This changing through the decades Mashiach Theology, I meant an OPEN DISCUSSION about his formative years , his education , his personality , his midot , his actions as EVIDENCED as a public figure during all the years , and also before he became a public figure . In addition it would be necessary to delve into the background , namely chabad as it was in the decades prior to the acceptance of leadership in 1951.
Some historical works such as R Rivkin’s Ashkavta DeRabi and the historical work of the r shaul shimon deutch about chabad and its leader [which are I believe , both censored by Chabad ] are indispensable to form an accurate opinion .
This , again, is not “hate” nor “Sinat Chinam” . It is perfectly possible to genuinely love all chabad chassidim and see their incredible maalot , and still refuse to settle for an incomplete, biased and skewed picture .
Aderaba , they are not mutually incompatible . Not at all .
They complement each other .Orthodox rabbi –
You are basing your shita re your theology on actual words your rebbe said .
That is totally within your rights .
But – and that is a HUGE but …. and super relevant to this whole discussion !
That only shows, and is a good example, that the Chabad Chassidim are basing themselves on their rebbes words , and develop their theology accordingly .
Which they should .
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So the million dollar question here is – how is it possible to have an open and honest discussion about this theology WITHOUT an equally open and honest discussion of the originator of said theology?
Therefore I would venture to say that
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to have a complete and honest discussion about this theology without fully including the one under whose leadership, AND WHEREFROM this theology ORIGINATED .
And as long we will be hamstrung by concerns of self censorship in this regard , this discussion is doomed to be fruitless.
My impression is that the so called meshichistim are the true followers of their rebbi .
When you read his public utterances , his sichot , his maamarim, and try and imagine that every word and action emanate straight from the RBSH”O, would you not be a meshichist ?
In my opinion al least , the Mashiach line with all that it entails come directly from their rebbe .
So how is it logically possible to have an all encompassing , honest debate / discussion without including the main originator of this theology ?Chabd is a movement which was , re theology – in GREAT FLUX .There is NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER regarding a Rav , Rebbe or R’Ys Shitah re Chabad , when it comes to their theology because of 2 reasons :
1] It obviously has no bearing at all for anything which happened AFTER the letter was written , because lo harei chabad before, ke harei chabad after.
2] Any letter or correspondence is is only valid re THE KNOWLEDGE THE LETTER WRITER HAD of chabad theology at the time of writing .
The above seems obvious ,fairminded to me and should be equally so to any honest participant in this thread .
THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT CAVEAT to any quoting of Rabbanim or Rebbes re their theology.You have not – but I did .
With my own ears .
Is this Debatable ? most definitely .
Does everyone agree to this ? Most definitely not .
But there is no running away from the facts .
The emet is that the subject you brought up as fact , can not be labeled as a universally agreed upon assessment .Rso is totally right . One can only have an open, honest and objective discussion about the merits of chabad theology, only after we got rid of any arguments of blaming the other of sinat chinam , hate etc etc .
One can , ‘not hate’ ,and still Criticise vociferously . Croticism is NOT sinat chinam !
It is just that – Criticism .
This is ,and should ideally be ,an unlimited , no holds barred discussion .
Otherwise we will never reach the truth.Reality has shown that when you REALLY want to know what the shitah of an Adam Gadol is regarding any issue , ranging from zionism , chabad , mizrahi or shalom bayit daf hayomi or chinuch , or what have you – the BEST INDICATION are
“the ERLICHE TALMIDIM of that Adam Gadol” ,
the ones who are not in it for the kavod or the money , the ones that were close to that Adam Gadol , and live their life according to his wishes.
They know what their rebbi REALLY WANTED AND REALLY HELD .
They are the ones who DEDICATED THEIR LIVES to follow him .
[Btw – Many times there are other Cheshbonot why an Adam Gadol is quiet berabbim about something but for his talmidim its not hidden]
So , when determining what they really held, it is imperative to hear what they say in his name .
Provided you are HONEST , and without an agenda .
Rav Hutner , in his later years ,SEVERELY criticised Chabad’s theology . I heard that myself from his greatest talmidim . That is not a contradiction at all to any previous writings and / or utterances .Chabads theology changed drastically , so the reactions to chabad changed too.
Chabad chassidim should man up and honestly address this head on , instead of hiding behind earlier sources.Chabad people are wonderful . and I mean it . The can do attitude . The genuineness. The Chesed . The acceptance . The non judgement. The Simcha. The kiruv. The Mesirat Nefesh.
Does that mean we should turn deaf and blind when it comes to their theology ?
They are our brothers . We should help them when in need , no less than any other yid.
Does that mean that we are going to have to accept as truth anything they happen to be claiming as the yiddishe theology, just because they are brothers ?
And if we don’t , does that mean we are lacking in mentshlichkeit ?
In my opinion at least , if you spearhead a movement , clearly in theology at odds with the rest of klal yisrael [no other part of klal yisrael champions mashiach from the dead like them] ,and at odds with what they themselves were proclaiming for years , its only fair to expect , anticipate and therefore accept , that you are opening yourself up to genuine and open examination of your shitot , their roots ,their essence and their consequences . That should all be part of the game .
And that as grownups, they should be able to hear any legit taanot and formulate to-the -point responses head on ,without hiding behind the screen of lack of mentshlichkeit or change of topic or other tactics .
Or not ?Its terrible. Mamash terrible . If chabad theology of the 2020s would have been presented to any yid , in any type of kehilla , in any place on the globe ,some 60 years ago . The response would be – plain ridicule , a total joke .
Now we are having pages of arguments about those Shtuyot ….
how far have we fallen …
Real yeridat hadorot……is this the best mentchlichkeit you have to offer?
because they are hateful personally and/or attack personally, or use degrading terms towards gedolim.
Interesting, have not noticed any of the above in my posts . Am willing to learn , however .test it out
My posts are never published . Wonder why .
because they are hateful personally and/or attack personally, or use degrading terms towards gedolim. That should have been obvious.
Chabad is not worried about yeridat hadorot .
one mainstream habad told me ,without blinking ,that his rebbe is greater than …. moshe rabenu .