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@ DAMoshe
He already accused the Rebbe of being a Mashiach sheker in the 1970s.
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Correction – He accused him already in the sixties .
Heard in the name of Rav Matityahu Salamon zl that Rav Shach zl asked him [RMS] in the sixties to publicize this in his [RS] name .
Which he did .
In a closed semipublic forum.@Arso
No , I dont think that having Meshugaas is an impediment to being a true oved hashem .
It maybe a corruption in hashkafa , and a waste and misdirection of energy, time and resources.
And it might have negative consequences and flow on effects .
But I would be dan them as a Shogeg [or even as a Ta’a bidvar Mitsva , who is patur of a korban if he is mistakenly aiming for osek bidvar mitsvah at the time of the averah action. [mishnah end of ch 19 in Shabbat]
Anyway I cannot ,and neither can any basar vadam, judge a person .
That is reserved for the Bor’ei Olam Himself [Rambam]@sechel
How brainwashed one can be ?You quote that Rav Shach sent his talmid to the Rebbi of the Habad hasidim for an explanation in kabbala ?
It seems that facts and reality are totally irrelevant when it comes to propaganda ….NO ONE SANE WOULD ACCEPT SUCH TOTAL RUBBISH .
It seems that some habad hasidim , when discussing their own rebbi ,are taking leave of their senses .
Black is portrayed as white , white as black, and no one blinks an eyelid .Am wondering – Is it at all possible to have a normal give and take with people like that ?
@ CS
I meant I found the name of a sefer that addresses the Ramban mentioned, but I’m going to give my source in this info a break so I’m not pressing it for now. In any case, aside from the Gemara, there’s the abarbanel and Sdei Chemed who refer to moshiach min hameisim positivelys well. Rashi is only one mefaresh on the Gemara and not Halacha lmaase.
[CS]
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All the mefarshim who speak about mashiach min hameitim [even when it is clear that this their kavana] are speaking about someone who has not been publicised as M before , has experienced thiyat hametim , and now starts from the beginning to be go’el klal yisrael.
Once they STARTED AND THEY SUBSEQUENTLY DIE ,its game over .That is the PASHTUT of their explanation .
Thats why Rambam says that if M is killed that’s proof that he is not .
That’s why Raman says thats how the Jews know that the notsri was an impostor .
That’s why during the whole history of Klal Yisrael, this was considered NORMATIVE JUDAISM .
AND THATS WHY HABAD THEMSELVES – THEIR RABANIM AND MASHPI’IM , all without fail , PROCLAIMED IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE WORLD , from 91 – 94 that it is KEFIRA in the 13 ikarei emuna to entertain THE POSSIBILITY OF Rmm’S dying before fully accomplishing the ge’ula.THE GREATEST SIGN OF THE UNIVERSAL ACCEPTANCE OF THIS PASHTUT ARE THE LAST 2 LINES.
Why did habad [then] claim that is IMPOSSIBLE for him to die ?
They would be on much safer ground , claiming that their leader is M ,without precluding his death ?Why ?
AL KORCHACH – even they did not want to go against the pashtut of our mesorah , against the pashtut of the rishonim .
Question to THE HONEST CS : please an answer to this question ?
An answer , please . Not a sidestep .
Not , I have an answer but will not share it now .
Not , I am looking for a sefer which deals with it .
Not , the mitnagdim are not any better .
Not , wholesale ignoring of the question , hoping people will forget .
AN ANSWER >
@CS
CS promised honesty in one of the previous posts .
Honesty does NOT equal sidestepping .1] Did Official Habad , up until the end of the eighties, continuously reassure the outside world [ who were critical of traces of mashiach noises within habad] that this was AGAINST habad leadership policy ?
Did they attack their [then mashiach] critics as ‘Haters’ ?
As opponents of torat hachasidut , and therefore biased against , and therefore misjudging habad ?Yes or no ? Without sidestepping , please .
Yes or No ?
Can we [the outside , non habad world] assume that the ABSENCE of a clear ‘Yes or No’ answer , is an indication that habad has something to hide here ?
@CS
To be an ehrlich oved hashem is VERY important .
no doubt about that .
But to have a correct hashkafa and not follow meshugaas in a cult like way is not any less important .
If you do not open your eyes wide open and reason SOLIDLY with an open torah mind , who knows where one can end up .And may I say some more [a lesson I learned from this decades long saga]
even being a totally sincere oved hashem IS NO GUARANTEE WHATSOEVER that one doesn’t stumble – badly- in hashkafa .
Habad yochi’ach ……
May this serve as a timely reminder for all of us .
.
@CS
In one post you claimed you were not aware of official Habad Policy before the Histalkus / Disappearance of 1994.
In a subsequent post you claimed , you are well aware of it .
Be it as it may , the following question is very pertinent –When will we get an unreserved acknowledgement that Official Habad made two major U-Turns in the last 60 – 70 years ?
Or possibly , alternatively rephrased as “one Major U-Turn and one Great Deception” ?Thanking you [or any other habad defender] in advance , for tackling this issue with real emet like honesty
Have read multiple posts from Habad defenders on multiple threads , and no one had the fortitude yet to look the facts and reality in the eye .
Have not given up . I deeply believe in the inner goodness of humanity and that at least someone will find the courage to do so .But , Please – please , Not by saying that the non habad world ALSO made a u- turn by initially [pre 94] opposing habad ‘candidacy’ for M , based on the premise that M comes from the dead . and somehow only now [after 94] insisting M only comes from the living.
That’s a factual non starter …To the Mods
– why was my post edited ?
At least give me an opportunity to reread it and edit it myself ?And how, exactly would that be done?
@AAQ
Don’t look at the messenger – look at the message .
If the message is correct , who cares how it got to you ? [eizehu haham halomed mi….]
And if the message is not correct , why would you accept an incorrect message just because a clever man delivered it to you ?@CS
CS is TOTALLY missing the point , all the while pretending [?] to answer it .
editedthe post before about negi’ut is not meant to be condescending
has veshalom .
,The gemara suspect even one of the greatest, the kohen gadol, of negi’ut .
@Arso
Am talking about the OFFICIAL LINE here . Not about what people said .
The official line from the Hasidi hugim .The official line from Habad was clearly that this mashiach crowning was AGAINST their rebbi’s wishes .
They cannot control everyone in such a big hasidut .That the ‘haters’ were looking for problems and magnifying some small tiny dirt which had come in from the outside .
It was [supposedly] a result of the rapid influx of baalei thshuva who did not have the proper habad ‘mesorah’ ….
That they were the ‘victims’ of their own success ….The TRUTH however was , that this was , as it seems , a ‘carefully orchestrated decades long campaign “milema’ala'” ….
.
A spectacular u turn …. Or maybe the Great Deception is a more accurate description ?@ CS
do you realize that All your so called ‘proofs’ that mashiach comes from meisim are automatically NULL AND VOID ?1] In your eyes the habad rebbi and habad rabanim are THE ONLY AUTHENTIC shitah in yiddishkeit .
The other yehudim have it mostly right but they would do best to listen to the greatest experts around [i.e. the people mentioned before]suppose that you [and other habadi’s] would fully agree to that statement [which is not necessarily passul]
2] Pre 94 the ONLY AUTHENTIC shitah in yiddishkeit disregarded those ‘proofs’ .
Obviously those ‘proofs’ MUST BE null and void .
the only explanation – per force- is your detractors’ pshat in those ma’marei hazal .
Why is that pshat so wrong in YOUR EYES , if the only authentic shitah of judaism approved of them ?
To summarize
CS does not know about the pre 94 non habad world , and therefore has no explanation about one of the major u turns in the Jewish world .
CS does not know about the u turns official habad performed during the last 7 decades.
CS does not adequately explain what their side is going to do with an explicit , centuries old, unchallenged Ramban , which clearly and unambiguously deals , head on , with the issue at hand . [as opposed to the other sources which could be explained in various ways]
CS is ignoring their own side ‘s clear and public declarations SUPPORTING their detractors present position .
CS is still looking with ‘innocent wonder’ at their detractors’ inability to see the yashrut and correctness of their position .
And we are left with equal wonder at the IMMENSE POWER of negi’ut .
Kol Hanega’im Adam Ro’eh Huts MiNig’ei Atsmo .
Their position is riddled with u turns , inconsistencies and contradictions against centuries old , well established thought .
They represent a small minority within Judaism .
AND THEY STILL LOOK AT US AS IF WE ARE THE MESHUGA”IM HERE …..
Mind boggling .
Kol Hanega’im Adam Ro’eh Hut MiNig’ei Atsmo …..
@ Arso
Btw. That wasn’t the only major flip flop in habad theology .
Think you asked in one the old threads about it :For years – no, for decades . For decades there was a major Mahloket .
There were those , mainly Yeshivish , led by Rav Shach and other Litvish Yeshivish Rashei Yeshivot who accused Habad of crowning their manhig as mashiach . This was going on for decades . From the sixties onwards . Until the late Eighties .
This was one of the main bones of contention in those times .
I know , not because I heard about it . I LIVED through those times .
I remember them , vividly .
it was the Hasidi Olam [non Habad ] who came to the rescue , in favor of habad. They battled the Yeshivishers . The Litvish Balabatish people were also on the hasidi side . They did not understand what the yeshivish people saw in habad .Btw – This was one of the main arguments in the 88 election cycle where Aguda and Degel split . Aguda and the hasidim vehemently defended habad against the false [at the time] accusations that habad is aiming to crown their rebbi as mashiach .
Hotsa’at shem ra ! An avla against habad , ehrlich people ! how can you accuse them of these irresponsible shtuyot voiced by some irresponsible hotheads . This is against their rebbi’s shitah . Against the hozer rashi R kahn . Those Yeshivishers are stam haters [sounds familiar? ] . Sin’at Hinam .
They are the source of the galut . Etc. Etc.Another 3 years later – in 1991 .
Suddenly the rebbi accepts his messiahship from his hasidim and R Kahn falls in line . All habad rabbanim sign kabalat malhut …..
WHAT HAPPENED ?for Decades the habad critics were derided [Heard those accusations already in the sixties] .
And were PROVEN RIGHT in the most spectacular u turn in Jewish history .
That itself was already an excellent lesson in who has a hazaka , and who lost his hazaka ……
Heard some rumblings then from the klal hasidi side . How they defended for years the indefensible .But from the habad side ? Only bliss .
Was the bliss a RESULT of the ignorance ? Hard to believe.They themselves were screaming themselves hoarse that it [this Messiah aspiration] is all one big libel and a sheker .
Ela Mai the bliss was ‘made up ignorance’ they simply decided to ignore it .Which in turn created real ignorance .
For the later generation.
Am sure CS won’t even know what I am talking about , all the while this was a clear reality I [and my generation] lived through .Mind boggling …
If CS has no regard for facts so well known –
they disqualified themselves from any mature discussion of this topic .This response of attributing to the non habadi’s pre 94 , the position that
1] M HAS to come from the meisim
2] That was the reason why the leader of the Habad Hasidim was disqualified in their viewis a sign of either CLEAR DISHONESTY
or a sign of ELEMENTARY IGNORANCE AND SHALLOWNESS
and should serve as a final and clear refutation of their bikush ha’emet and a total bankruptcy of the habad debating methods
and the habad debating aims .@CS
Regarding the flip flop yb loves to post about Gimmel Tammuz and moshiach min hachaim etc. I’d like to point out that Chabad’s opponents equally flip flopped. Before Gimmel Tammuz, they assured us that we must be wrong, because not the Rebbe nor any other Torah leader was great enough to be considered a candidate for Moshiach and he therefore must come from the meisim.
[CS]
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Sheker VeChazav .
Lahadam .
Total Fantasy.re the term nasi .
The problem is not so much the term nasi [although I do see a problem as it is more elevated than the term rebbe or admor which is used in other circles]Rather the problem is the word which is mentioned after the term nassi :
NASSI HADOR
the whole generation ….
Cannot remember the whole generation getting together and appointing the leader of the habad hasidim as Leader of the Whole Generation ….
What really happened – was the following : Habad hasidim [a small minority when using a worldwide Orthodoxy perspective] , crowned their leader as nasi over the overwhelming majority of Orthodox [non habad] Jews who did not even have any voting rights …..
You can give it any name you fancy . I would call this “Cultural Imperialism”.
But in the greater scheme of things , this is understandable [and even logical] .
Think about it .
If your end goal is to get all Jews to accept your leader’s messianic position , you have to first prepare their psyche .First let them get used to calling him Nassi hador . Nassi of EVERYONE.
The next step – the messiah of EVERYONE , is not such a big unsurmountable step anymore …..Food for thought …..
@CS
All Your sources about ‘DISAPPEARANCES’ have No connection whatsoever to the Ramban who is talking about DYING before finishing the Geula .
A sloppy proof is BY DEFINITION — no proof !Lehavdil the Xtians employ that same method . They bring one so called ‘proof’ , its sloppy and flimsy , not watertight , so they move on to the next one , and all you get at the end is a repetition of countless ‘non proofs’ which prove …. NOTHING .
On the other hand you have a clear RAMBAN .
And the clear HABAD shitah pre 94 ,accepting that Ramban
And a Rambam that a dead mashiach is no mashiach [hilch. melachim]
And a universal acceptance by klal yisrael bemeshech kol hadorotIsn’t it obvious that the source of CS’s and all other habadi’s so called “Proofs” stem from their deep wish have their arrow surrounded by the appropriate circles ?
HOW BLIND CAN YOU GET ?
.@CT
1] Ramban is in sefer havikuach – part of kisvei haramban
2] you did not answer whether all yidden who do not listen to ‘nevua’ of the leader of habad are hayav mitah byedi shamayim or not [and why]
3] According to your explanation of nevua i. e. every rebbe of habad who gave etsot in gashmiyut is a navi . we should extend that to every rabbi in yahadut who gives etsot in gashmiyut . why only to habad rebbeim ?
so, following your reasoning nevua NEVER stopped in in Jewish History . Every rabbi gave etsot in gashmiyut . this NEVER stopped .
Ela Mai – they gave etsot because it says in AVOT Ch 6 . Kol Halomed Torah LiShma … Nehenin Mimenu Etsa VeToshiya…
Ditto for the Rebeim of Habad .
@Arso
It is mentioned in Tanya . Quite a Mitnagdishe Shtikel I must say …To the Group
CS promised to be honest
Meanwhile all I see is more of circle painting around the arrows and then claiming to have hit the target.“To the group”? Are you qwerty613?
@qwerty
Ramban disseminated his claims in writing TO THE YIDDEN after the debate . Where he says that the yidden should know that the PROOF that their false candidate is a non starter , is because he died without completing the job .
.
NO ONE EVER CHALLENGED THIS RAMBAN DURING ANY PERIOD OF JEWISH HISTORY .
.
that is until something very urgent happened sometime during summer ’94….
.@CS
Ramban himself took notes of his argument and published it FOR THE YIDDEN .
He himself.
That was the true reason why the notsrims candidate was PROVEN WRONG .
.
This WAS THE CLEAR OFFICIAL HABAD [!] POSITION pre 94.
You are too young to remember this .
But I do .
It was one of the 13 ikarei emuna .
He COULD NOT DIE .
There is a nevua that he is mashiach .
Mashiach HAS to be alive [!!!!] , [like the Ramban ]
So He CANNOT DIE.
You would have to blind and deaf at the time not to notice .
This was the position of ALL habad rabanim and mashpi’im .
.
It is almost laughable that we are debating this issue where habad claims he can die – no problem .
Its so detached from reality that it seems like a dream .
Mashiach’s times [hayinu ke cholmim] ….
to end off with a bit of irony …..@CS
1] You did not answer my questions 123 and ABC.2] Hasidei Habad did NOT change the words of their Leader .
They are Hasidim and every word emanating from him is Kodesh Kadoshim .
Even more than Moshe Rabenu’s words in the eyes of Jews since matan torah .
[It figures, because he is – in their eyes greater than Moshe rabenu]
Absolute folly and a total non starter .3] They never claimed missiles will not land . They claimed that nothing will happen to yoshvei EY.
Wiggling your way out of it ,does not equal honesty.
There is more to write iyh
@Arso
Thanks for liking of the post about RAMBAN .Re ‘two bitter’ people you are referring to .
I am not bitter at all . I like the Habadi’s. They have tremendous qualities .
I also happen to like clarity , however , and I hate obfuscation .
So bitterness is not called for here , but clarity and honesty are .
Common thread in habadi’s response is ,as you mentioned: obfuscation / change of topic.The other point you mentioned that there are 2 people [you and me] who stand against a multitude of brainwashed Habad hasidim
– I wouldn’t characterize it that way . At all.
rather it is the huge multitudes and the overwhelming majority of Yidden ,all around the world, from any type of background ,who all agree and look upon this strange and totally new theology with a huge dose of healthy skepticism , reality and sehel hayashar, and therefore reject it out of hand ,They stand against modern Habad theology whereas , in comparison, a very few [when compared to the rest of klal israel ] Habadi’s who refuse to think for themselves and keep mindlessly regurgitating the false platitudes they have been continuously fed .@CS
just now read your assertion that there are sources that M will start the job ,die, resurrect and finish .
Against a clear Raman in sefer havikuach .
Where are your sources please ?
Am guessing those sources are talking about something else [although similar].@CS
What the notzrim believe or not doesn’t make something treif. It’s whether it’s Torah or not. The notzrim are wrong first and foremost because yoshke was a rasha and was never fit to be Moshiach to begin with.Now I don’t think there’s any Torah sources for someone who started the job, and didn’t finish/ was killed or otherwise thwarted, to continue to consider them Moshiach.
The debate is if someone started and, at least to our eyes, passed away, but their work and personal influence continue, what then? There’s room to say …. that he could then have techias hameisim with the first round of Tzaddikim (40 years earlier than
the rest) and finish the job.[Previous post by CS]
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RAMBAN clearly states that the Notsrims Mashiach can’t be mashiach.
And he also states the reason .
NOT because he was a rasha.
But because he started and [ to our eyes] passed away . EVEN IF HIS WORK AND INFLUENCE CONTINUED …..
That was according to RAMBAN sufficient reason to say –
HE CANNOT BE MASHIACH
.
This Ramban was not a chidush .
It was pashut.
Not challenged by anyone.
Not in his days .
Not in any of the multiple subsequent generations .
Not even in 1992 and 1993ONLY from a very specific date in 1994 and onwards, was it discarded by some Jews [for some secret specific tsorech , I am not telling you what ,but you are allowed to guess it yourself]
.
Something against RAMBAN is treif .Yes ,treif .
@Cs
CS is claiming to their best to be honest .
SO – lets start with the details already brought up –1] Official Habad claimed their leader as Navi Emet because he predicted no one will be hurt in First Gulf War in EY .
True/False2] Fact is that people were hurt . Fact is that people died [directly and indirectly].
True/False3] Rambam says clearly that if a candidate Navi predicts future and even one small detail is incorrect , we know for a fact that he is Navi Sheker and he is sentenced to death.
True/ FalsePlease answer the above 3 questions in a clear manner
and your honest opinion plus well reasoned thinking behind your answers re the above and the following:A] is he a Navi Emet [about who the Torah commands [not merely advocates- but commands] Elav Tishma’un and whoever transgresses his words is hayav mitah biyedei shamayim al pi hahalaha ?
Meaning the overwhelming majority of Klal Yisrael who ignore his words are Hayavim Mitah Biyede Shamayim [ChvSh] ?Or
B] He is a Navi Sheker – Meaning that that he is Hayav Mitah BeBeth Din and that he should be kavur bein harsha’im who are hayavei mitah [chvsh] ?Or
C] He is neither – not a Navi emet nor a Navi Sheker and no one is hayav mitah , not him and not the majority of Klal Yisrael ?Please , honest and WELL REASONED answers – for BOTH 1,2 and 3 , AND , A, B and C.
THanks
@CS
I am old enough to remember this myself .
Lo teheh Shmi’a gdolah MeRe’iya.
The Rebbe of habad came out unequivocally and 1] promised that no one will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War .
This was distributed by the hasidim in the name of their rebbe with a “Shturem” .
Then 2] this was used to establish the navi [emet – sheker?] credentials .
he promised in advance and in fact really nothing happened ,no one died , no one was injured , thus he was crowned as navi .
So we BH have – Hagai zharya malahi and RMMS.
Both [the promise plus the navi credentials] were made by OFFICIAL habad publications .
The kfar habad weekly magazine , dvar malhut .
I remember those heady days . Nearly every week there was more news. The Rebbe of the habad hasiddim got them into a real frenzy with new utterances all the time about the geoula [ not the impending one – rather the one they were supposed to open their eyes to] which was already happening right under their noses.
This was not the last generation of the galut . This was [supposedly] the first generation of the geoula !
[some thirty odd years ago …]
Suppose we can look it all up in the archives of kfar habad magazine of 1990 – 1992 in the period leading up to the stroke in ’92.
@Arso
Re the 2 colossal u turns – they are another topic which deserves mention in their own right
Od hazon Lamo’ed bln.
@coffee addict
we have to take this second coming business seriously.
It is not a joke and should not be taken lightly.
It is clear that the notsrim are using habad’s second coming meshigaas to promote their impostors candidacy .
For the last 2 thousand years the yehudim heroically resisted all attempts to lure them away from their heritage .
It is a pity that just before the end of the galut ,we ourselves should create a new instrument to lure our innocent brothers and sisters towards a two thousand year discredited avoda zara.
It should stay the same as it was for the Milenia of Jewish History . –
A Second Coming is COMPLETE ANATHEMA in Judaism .
Refer to the RAMBAN’s refutation of the Meshumad in his Vikuach in front of the King of Spain .
This is a serious topic and deserves our attention in a serious way.@CS
Yes I learned the sources too .
What is missing here an acknowledgement from the Habad side that there were two colossal u – turns in habad theology in the last 40 – 50 years .
Countless pages of discussion and all there is , a total and pointed void .
The habad side avoids any honest discussion of their two major theological u turns .
They will change topics .
They will sing songs .
They will blame other streams of similar u turns [although they never happened]
But they will keep on ignoring their turns .
They do not realize that their ne’emanut in these matters is dipping under the freezing point and that their position is rendered untenable .
Until they will face these matters head on .
In a candid way .
Open and honest .CS
I learned the Sicha Parshat Shoftim .
and that only proves qwerty right .
After learning that Sicha it is clear that Habad are different to mainstream Judaism . Not in practice .
Not in feel .
But in theology .
They have a different Navi , a different God . a different Mashiach . They live in a different era .
Theirs is an era where no avoda is needed anymore .
Theirs is an era of post – first generation of the geoula.All while our Nevi’im are exactly the same as they were for the last 2 thousand yrs, the same God we worshipped the last 4 thousand yrs . [not one who was mitlabesh in a guf]
We are still in the same galut as the last 1900 some yrs .
Nice people . Worthwhile people . Quality people . Mesirut nefesh people .
but …… with a total different theology .
Sadly so .
So qwerty is friends with them because of their qualities . Which is correct.
But criticizes them for their Theological Schism . Which is also correct .
Not a contradiction.
Not at all .?
To QWERTY613
You are right . we cannot save habad, but we can make sure that some of their most outlandish ideas should be recognized by the overwhelming majority of our people for what they really are .I have been around for quite a while b’h , and I have witnessed it myself , how something totally beyond the pale , slowly slowly becomes accepted as the norm .
Of course thanks to the passage of time and [ve’od vehu ha ikar] relentless and persistent “ta’amula she hazaka she’eno hozeret rekam” [in the words of the late Manhig and Rebbe of Habad himself] …..
Ta’amula and party propaganda larov , as amply seen on these pages …..A cursory and openminded read of habad adherents’ comments on this page ,bearing in mind the [r]evolution[s] in in habad theology during the last 50 – 60 years , will inorexably force the reader to accept Morenu Rambam’s saying :
HASECHEL SHAMASH LEHARATSON
Whatever the the ratson wants , the sechel stands ready to do its bidding , like a true servant .
With true elasticity ….@hakatan
you cannot prove satmar rav is more right than other rabanim who disagree with him , from the events of oct 7 .
Tach ve tat was much worse when compared to oct 7 . much more ‘matir bisarchem ‘ r’l .
There was no zionism at that time .
And nevertheless there was this ‘matir bisarchem’ .
Must be that there are other averot which could also trigger such an outcome .
If those [or other] averot existed then , they could exist now too .
So it might very well be those other averot at play now too .
And not zionism.@menachem
You ask for a source for the psak of RMS shlitah re praying for soldiers.Maybe . Again, maybe . His reason is as follows .
Zionism has proven to be a tremendous magnet to pull people away yahadut and from true chinuch .
If we popularize identification with zionist symbols – even when otherwise warranted- ., we risk reinforcing and strengthening the power of this magnet- with disastrous consequences.
Not that al pi torah we shouldn’t pray for them .
Its the probable , or possible , consequences which are the problem .
Just a suggestion .
Might be wrong .
@hakatan
“No, the potential mitzva to live there today, as an individual, is a machlokes.”
katan
—–
Sh’A in hilchot shabbat is matir [nowadays and halacha lema’aseh] standard amirah le’akum letsorech the mitsva rabba of yishuv EY .
More than what is mutar for all other mitsvot , where you need a shut dishvut to permit an amira.
For the mitsvah of yishuv EY , there is no need of shvut di shvut and it is mutar to ask an akum to do a melacha de’oraytah .
None of the poskim are cholek on the Sh’A in this .So ,to summarize
Halacha lemaaseh according to Rabban Shel Yisrael Maran HaBet Yosef [no cholek]Mitsvah of yishuv EY is noge’a lemaaseh nowadays.
==============================================
Am still waiting for an answer from hakatan …..@hakatan
The Zionist army, its shmad, and all the rest, are all against the Shulchan Aruch. Obviously, for Jews to defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch is not in question. But the Zionist army is a non-starter.
—
in other words-
The Army is a non starter . The Jews are allowed / should.
Even on Shabbat .
So it seems it is pikuach nefesh . Even according to katan.
So if the ‘jews’ cant do the job . Follows that the Pikuach nefesh is still present .
Remember we had Shabbat . We had pikuach nefesh overriding shabbat .
We had ‘Jews’ trying to [be mechalel shabbat] and take away the p/n , but did not succeed.
So we are left with a problem of p/n , ‘jews’ who cannot solve it . And an army which can take away the p/n .
should we stop the army and keep the p/n ? or use the army and get rid of p/n ?
Katan paskened , keep p/n and stop the army .
Question is – on what basis ?
.
We will need a very well based rationale for this psak .
Because the life , the well being and the property of millions of our brothers and sisters are going to depending on this psak ….@my voice
If a fellow’s grandfather lit your house on fire, and then his grandson had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process the grandsons life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?
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Hope You’ll notice the slight change …
——-@hakatan
You write to me – please don’t disrespect The RBSH’O ‘s torah .
Where do I ever disrespect the Torah ? CHVSH !think that misquoting from, and ‘deleting’ , acceptable shitot from ge’onim muvhakim is much closer to disrespecting the torah …..
@hakatan
If you want to favor Satmar Rav over Avne nezer , I will respect that .
No problem .
But that does not absolve you from honesty and stating the facts .
You cannot claim that ALL rabbanim are agreeing with you .
You have to state that there is a Machloket and that you think satmar rav is correct .
Otherwise you are plain misleading .@hakatan
I do not have avne nezer with me .
It is a good few pages .
I learnt it a few weeks ago .
Will try to look it up again .
But cannot rely blindly on hakatans quotes.
Had some experience already .@Evalemosivlo
you are not right that everyone should drop everything and come home … [as you portrayed it]Moving to EY is not a simple thing at all and lots of thought should be given with regards to one’s own yahadut and the yahadut of ones family and lots of other heshbonot .
I have seen many families in Chuts la’arets being matsliach with their chinuch and yahadut , and when they moved to EY everything unraveled Rahmana Litslan .
Only with yishuv hadaat and after extensive consultation with rabanim with yirat shamayim who know your situation first hand, can one move.
It is forbidden to ascend en masse, regardless, as the Satmar Rav shows from multiple raayos, etc.
[hakatan]
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Not sure why you keep on omitting the clear psak of Harav Avnei nezer , that LEHALACHA it is mutar to ascend en masse as a bloc .So it is a machloket .
A machloket between two chashuve rabbanim in halacha .
Why does hakatan feel the need to usurp the whole playing field for himself ?Satmar rav is the only Rav around ? There are others too …
Why this ani ve’afsi od ?@hakatan
“No, the potential mitzva to live there today, as an individual, is a machlokes.”
katan
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Sh’A in hilchot shabbat is matir [nowadays and halacha lema’aseh] standard amirah le’akum letsorech the mitsva rabba of yishuv EY .
More than what is mutar for all other mitsvot , where you need a shut dishvut to permit an amira.
For the mitsvah of yishuv EY , there is no need of shvut di shvut and it is mutar to ask an akum to do a melacha de’oraytah .
None of the poskim are cholek on the Sh’A in this .So ,to summarize
Halacha lemaaseh according to Rabban Shel Yisrael Maran HaBet Yosef [no cholek]Mitsvah of yishuv EY is noge’a lemaaseh nowadays.
Hakatan is trying to knock his [and by extension also all our collective heads] through the wall .
What he does with his own head is his own business , but let him please spare all other yidishe heads ….His fanatical Shibud to his Shitah Kdosha makes him believe that he can pasken she’elot hamurot mamash ,without a even shred of cognizance of a weighty and bitter reality .
This reality is unambiguous , and it is very clear and very immediate.
If the IDF goes on strike now , or it doesn’t have sufficient weapons to do its job . Or it doesn’t do its job for whatever other reason, it is very likely that Oct 7 will chvsh repeat itself in a multiplied fashion, hoyo lo tihyeh , yishmor hashem veyerachem .If that does not constitute immediate mass pikuach nefesh , then I am a banana , and hakatan is a cucumber.
Those monsters have to be stopped .
Have to .
Because al pi derech hateva , NO ONE ELSE WILL .Do we need Siyata dishmaya – for sure .
Im Hashem lo yishmor ir , shav shakad shomer ?
Sure , 100 % !!!This is alef bet. Pashut kebei’a bekutcha.
I wonder why such dvarim pshutim even need to be written.We have to do whatever we can ,to save yehudim .
No less than if there would be an earthquake ch’vsh .
We would mobilize . We would write our representatives in government.
Exactly the Same here.@ menachem shmei is correct
Pikuach nefesh warrants a response . not less than pikuach nefesh from a machala l’o.
Doing nothing is a travesty .
Doing nothing [where your action could have made a difference] makes you [partly] responsible for the bloodshed .
Elementary torah logic .So – WRITE TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVE in Congress or Senate .
As Most Rabanim Ruled.I think it says בהר ציון תהיה פליטה……
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Katan to Evalimoshavlo:
It’s a machlokes to when that even refers, including yimei Chizkiyahu, bayis sheini – see Ibn Ezra
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Actually ,that’s the pasuk the Hafetz hayim quoted to Rav miPonevezh . Hafets Hayim spoke in 1933 before his petira and cried about all the terrible things which were going to happen to the yidden in Europe. When asked where will be the yeshua , he quoted that pasuk .
Rav miPonovezh , Rav Kahaneman inscribed those words on the outside wal of his yeshiva…
So, at least an authority no less than the Hafets hayim , who could safely be described as the greatest rabban shel yisrael in the last few generations [whose sfarim on sh’a are considered lehalacha in the overwhelming majority of haredi jewish homes],who connected this pasuk to our present situation.
So ,Evalemoshiv can’t be that wrong ….
Hello ?
@ my voice
‘Just look at how many Jews have been killed in Israel because of their Jewish identity in the past century over the USA, and that should put that argument to rest.’
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Sorry but you are mistaken .
You might be correct in your assessment of the past .
But what is kove’a, is not the past .
Only the future is kove’a .
If you close down the medina , you have millions of innocents who will be in harms way chvsh . Clearly and Immediately .
Not the UN , not NATO , not the Arabs States , not the US .
No one else will be able to protect the yidden there .
Not in the short term and not in the long term .
No point in deluding yourself ….