yankel berel

@nomesorah
You are an EXPERT in changing topics and leaving real unanswered questions with the illusion of an answer.
Should compile all question raised in this thread , match them one by one with answers .
Read them carefully.
The result might resemble … a comedy .

This discussion seems to be going around and around , without ‘to the point’ answers .
Just A quick repeat of a previous post – and a short question – which one of the details below are incorrect ?
1] Please post the incorrect details [if there are]
2] If on the other hand they are correct – please can we have an answer why this is not a Reiuta in habad s Chazaka ?
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Lets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning , [1] the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Mitnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then [2] it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .
My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?
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Am really looking forward to a point on point , honest discussion on each of the above ‘steps’ .
Can we safely assume that in case of no [adequate] response – the Klal of Shtika KeHoda’a would apply ?

@menachem
Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?

#2214125
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Cant find it . Suppose it exists .
If Menachem would be so kind to paste his response in full ….

REPEAT – NO ANSWER GIVEN or even attempted yet ….
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@ menachem
We can’t agree that we need Moshiach since I hold that many tzaddikim have had nevuah after חגי זכריה מלאכי!?
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Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?
And source corroborating their nevua as valid ?
Was it widely accepted in Klal Yisrael ?
Thanks in advance for the forthcoming details .

@nomesorah
in order to have a proper debate we need some prerequisites
1] reality
2] honesty
3] straight logic and commonsense
4] torah logic
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have not detected sufficient amount of the first 3 yet . but am happy if you would convince me of the opposite . re the fourth I can’t comment yet .

@ menachem
We can’t agree that we need Moshiach since I hold that many tzaddikim have had nevuah after חגי זכריה מלאכי!?
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Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?
And source corroborating their nevua as valid ?
Was it widely accepted in Klal Yisrael ?
Thanks in advance for the forthcoming details .

@menachem
“Okay, you’re right. I am a Lubavitcher so I am biased, so I have no right to defend Lubavitch. Only those who disagree with Lubavitch have the right to defend it. You are completely objective, as you only care about truth, so all your attacks on Lubavitch must be true, and my defenses are worthless.

Your interpretations of what the Rebbe meant trump mine, despite the fact that you barely learned any of his teachings, while I learned thousands of pages of his teachings, and heard hundreds of hours of his talks. As a matter of fact, the more I study, the more biased I become, and the less of an ability I have to understand his teachings.”
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What your rebbe meant or did not mean , i.e. as pshat in his words is NOT the issue here .
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The issue is whether he had ANOTHER MOTIVE , as in the desired effect of his words on his followers ,all the while outwardly keeping to the literal meaning of the words , which is AXIOMATICALLY hard to accept for a devoted follower [hasid] . [that he would manipulate his hasidim ]
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This is not an issue of the kesef mishna and the magid mishna sparring over the true intent of the rambam where one could use your yardstick .
Here the question is – did he mean his father in law ONLY , or did he also allude to himself ?
This is the question , and the only question .
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Interestingly , the answer to this question , should come [but in a different way you intimated] from those who spent like you said ‘countless hours listening and learning his words ‘ i.e. his real hasidim .
BeZot Tibochenu : DID HIS HASIDIM TAKE IT AS PERTAINING ONLY TO HIS FATHER IN LAW ? OR DID THEY APPLY IT FULLY TO HIMSELF TOO ?
The answer is obvious , but to the willfully blind that is .
Clear as day , they fully applied it as pertaining to himself .
So the answer is provided not by me , not I am saying this .
The actions of the hasidim themselves speak volumes .
He WAS referring to himself .
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This analysis you could not write . Not because it is beneath your intellect ,which I do not doubt.
But because of your bias . Which you are proud of , and rightfully so .
But which stops you from making an objective analysis of your own mentors words .
Like a son who cannot sit in judgement on his own father , even though he spends countless hours learning his fathers words .

@menachem
Thanks for offering your friends to write [without bias] .
You seem to be missing the point again . Did your friends change to habad BECAUSE and as A RESULT of these issues , or they changed because of ‘other good things’ they saw in habad ? Think its the latter .The former are not a catalyst to change towards habad.
So when it comes to those issues , they are biased . Biased by the other ‘good things’ they think they derive from habad .
1] To doubt the leader , axiomatically includes [in the mind of most people] also doubting his other lessons and hadracha. Which they are loath to accept . And which they are clearly programmed to reject [the real purpose of the near deification – or the deification of their leader , depending on the observer] , one of the clear purposes of the ‘whistling’ mentioned before.
2] Once you are part of a movement , you identify with it . Your personality gets enmeshed with the movement , its leader and its ideals .
Criticism of the movement is automatically perceived as criticism of the person himself .Which triggers an automated defense mechanism .
Hardly conducive to level headed thinking and analysis.
So when analyzing whether the ‘current’ rebbi of habad did or did not use references to his father in law [the original issue raised on these pages] as a means to hint to himself . It will be the unbiased people who are most qualified to reach a correct conclusion.
The biased people do not even seem to grasp the mere existence of the issue at all .
On all the main issues I raised here on this thread , I did not seem to get any to the point answers . Only sidestepping or their wholesale ignoring .

Re
used socks
Please check the original post .
It was not referring to hasidic socks at all .

It was referring to changing IKAREI EMUNA , things which are the ABSOLUTE FOUNDATIONS of our belief , like used socks .

Someone who is willing to discard and change IKAREI EMUNA for conveniences sake
1] is delivering a ringing slap right in the face of millions of maaminim through the generations who lived a life of mesirat nefesh mamash to uphold just those ikarei emuna .
2] Thats besides the immense chizuk a certain religion, bent on soul snatching , preferably Jewish soul snatching , is getting for the propagation of their false messiah and his second coming …
3] All That is besides losing ones Chezkat Kashrut when it comes to trusting them ever again in this field until and unless a thorough and complete overhaul is conducted, pinpointing how and why such aberrations occurred and what will be done to stop it from ever happening again .

Changing Ikarei Emuna is much much more than , lehavdil, changing the Constitution of the United States . Imagine if some people would sneak in to the place where the original document is housed , change the text and then claim that their text is the correct one and that all US affairs are to be conducted according to the new text .
Can you imagine the chaos and turmoil this would engender ?

@nomesorah
“Though I can’t place my finger on where we disagree. What is your point about Chabad?”
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Please read my posts . Hope it is clear enough ….
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@menachem
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between your bias and my [supposed] bias . Yours PREDATED the issue , whereas mine [in your eyes] is a RESULT of this issue .
We are discussing the issue. I am saying that your response to the issue is colored by your PREEXISTING bias , whereas my response has no pre existing bias .
The difference is so simple that it is mind boggling that an [ostensibly ] moderate habad supporter like you would ignore it .

@ menachem
I used to be naive , but made a uturn on this .

Why?

Because you studied and listened to so many of his talks that you realized what he really meant?

Or because you heard so many one-line excerpts of his statements?

Or because you heard so much anti-Chabad rhetoric?
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None of the above .
It probably a result of my maturing and seeing the world as it is and not as I would like it to be , combined with the weight of the evidence ..
[btw Listening to his talks is irrelevant to this question]

@ always ask
Habad claimed back in 1991 that their rebbi performed that feat by predicting that NO ONE in Israel would be harmed in the first gulf war .
Which serves as ironclad proof that he is a Navi .
ounded
. They conveniently forgot that Jewish lawyer in Petah Tiqva who died from a direct missile hit , not to mention countless others who indirectly died as a result of the missiles , in addition to the many Jewish wounded.
Rambam – “ALL details of prediction have to come fruition . Even a small detail cant be omitted.”
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If that would be a proof , then it should serve as qualification for the opposite of a navi emet and its results ….

@menachem
“All those things you quoted were actually said about his father-in-law. His anivus was so great, that he never publicly called himself the Rebbe. He constantly said that the Rebbe and nossi was his father-in-law.”
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Careful and objective perusal of ALL his referrals to his shver troughout his hanhaga , show that he DID use referral to his Shver as a convenient vehicle to hint to himself . I used to be naive , but made a uturn on this .
Think that your being a hasid of his , precludes you of objectivity in this regard …

@nomesorah
“You left out 2a 2b 2c 2d 2e 2f 2g and so on. Which is almost all the other Rebbes and other Gedolim putting their weight on the Lubavitcher Rebbe being moshiach…..”
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Cryptic. What exactly are you referring to ?
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Main point is not “yes kabala not kabala”
Widespread accessibility and delving into kabala is a fact anyway. .
Point to be taken now , is learning and delving into it with an ASSURANCE that one understands it properly , ask questions , come up with answers , bring proofs etc. in an absolute manner like in nigleh . That is mistaken and dangerous , in my view at least .
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The Gaon says that of all talmidie ARI , only r chaim vital understood the nimshal . Being that the Ari when discoursing about kabala , only said what he wanted to convey , in the form of a mashal , not the nimshal itself .
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Thats where habad is going haywire . They approach it with the full self assurance typically associated with their other activities .
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Anything not within our clearly accepted mesorah from our great grandparents, “proven” by habad of the last 70 years , based on kabala , is suspicious.
Refer to my previous post where you can see habad theological acrobatics on display .
Each twist and each turn was at the time supported by myriad “proofs” , with footnotes and what have you . With beautiful convincing language.

@ nomesorah
…. classical pitfalls of learning Kabbalah apply here. Chabad ignores practical Kabbalah which was the downfall of Sabbtai Tzvi and others. They are not studying the intense devotions that risk ones mental state. It isn’t really much different than other groups hashkafos ……
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You are either not getting it or ignoring on purpose . Would suggest you reread the relevant post slowly and carefully …..

Vilna Gaon has an explanation on Emuna in Moshe.
Runs opposite to what habad would want it to be .

You misunderstood me . Am not taking issue with habad learning nistar , perse.
Am only trying to explain the tendency in Habad to advocate for all types of convenient [for them] but outlandish theological ideas.
Am only tracing the dots .

Hello ….

For thousands of years – since matan torah – we had one thing and one thing only- in our public domain. Nigleh . Even though Nistar is an integral part of the torah , it was not in the public domain . this started to change from the time of the publication of the Zohar , the earlier Mekubalim, the Ari and his disciples , but was mainly popularised since the advent of the Baal Shem and his talmidim .Now i want to posit a theory which may get some of you up in arms , but I think may be correct.
The reason why the Baal Shem [and disciples] popularised it ,was to rejuvenate the Avodat HaShem of its learners , to bring a fire , a life into them . Which was lacking previously . In which they succeeded.
So the purpose of that limud was not as a kiyum of mitsvat talmud torah and yediat hatorah, rather for its EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS
But not in order that they should become experts in the ‘Dak al Dak understanding’ of Nistar in the real , true and accurate sense , like klal yisrael was in limud nigleh for all the centuries since matan torah.
Habad was the only one which took it a step further . The early habad Rebeim advocated for their followers to delve into Nistar as close as possible to the real ‘dak al dak understanding ‘.
But that was , in my humble opinion at least, also only in order to further their Avodat Hashem .FOR ITS EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS, For exactly the same reason as the other talmidei baal shem .
What followed, when the generations passed, was , the emergence of an ‘illusion’ in habad that they do have a true and accurate dak al dak understanding of nistar , of its terminology , of what its words really mean , in the EXACT SAME WAY klal yisrael did for the last 3333 years in nigleh. Nigleh ,which was not only learned for its results on the learner , but for a clear absolute understanding of the torah
Therefore , considering this background , it is much easier in habad to use all types of nistar for ‘proofs’ for any outlandish new theory one would want to advance , convinced as they are that they are true conveyors of the accurate understanding of nistar .
They [and we] should remember that the true purpose of its limud was meant FOR THE EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS , not for a true and foolproof accuracy, which can afterwards be used to try and be medame milsa lemilsa , etc. because the true and accurate understanding remains elusive even if explained and packaged in the nicest and most appealing wrapping paper .
I think that this is a fault line between habad and the rest of klal yisrael.
Not the only one . One of the fault lines.

@qwerty
LOL.

“….The hope that the people of the world will recognize that they’re under the reshus of the tzaddik.”
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This is terrible . The Baal Hatanye was not Nosi HaDor . Nor was the Baal shem Tov . None of them were called by that title .
This is a RECENT Habad appellation to their leader , putting him above everyone else . They are trying to acclimatize all of us , our [gullible] minds into slowly accepting his so called “malchus” .
He is what he is . the leader of the habad chassidim .
That is an accurate reflection of reality.
The rest is hyperbole or propaganda .
Or Better said – both .

@nomesorah
Seems like there was an agenda .
Used to defend habad for many years , but made a u turn , in face of the developments over the years .
Still defend habad for all their qualities.
But they are definitely misguided .

hello ?