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@hakatan
Apologise .
previous post was by UJM , not hakatan.
This is NOT proof of hakatans lack of reliability.
Thanks.@hakatan
By time the British took over Eretz Yisroel from the Ottomans, the British no longer supported establishing a Jewish homeland. So that also demonstrates no support from the Goyim for a Jewish state.
[katan]
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The League of Nations (LON) formally adopted a British mandate for Palestine in July 1922, which incorporated the principles of the Balfour Declaration in the mandate.
Note – Britain was ruling Palestine since October 1918 ,all the while supporting the Balfour Declaration.Proof that one Cannot rely on hakatans assertions.
@ujm
1. The Balfour Declaration was made by the British before they controlled Eretz Yisroel. The Ottomans were still in charge at the time. It would have been no different than if Russia had declared support for a homeland. The declaration doesn’t help regarding the Shavuous.2. By time the British took over Eretz Yisroel from the Ottomans, the British no longer supported establishing a Jewish homeland. So that also demonstrates no support from the Goyim for a Jewish state.
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No 1 is irrelevant [because of/ and] No 2 is factually incorrect.@katan
Ma’ase Rav –
the shevet haleivi immigrated to EY then Palestine under the British – without permission of the British [the then rulers].Illegal immigration to EY is mutar al pi torah .
Proof.@katan
Regardless, pikuach nefesh goes only so far. The gimmel chamuros are yehareig viAl yaavor. Zionism is, according to all gedolim, A”Z, and their army serves up heapings of all three.
[katan]
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Wrong . Zionism is Not a’z according to all gdolim . According to some gdolim only.Their army serves heapings of all three, you say .
One is not mehuyav to eat what is served.
But one IS mehuyav not to stand idly by their brothers blood.
.@katan
…. the Zionist State, (not E”Y, as the Zionist State is not E”Y even if it does cover part of that)? That’s essentially admitting that your concern is not just pikuach nefesh but rather Zionism.
[katan]
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Irrelevant . Totally irrelevant.
P/N is and remains P/N, whether it is in a Zionist state , in EY, in both or in none.Admitting that my concern is Zionism ??
No admission whatsoever.
Was this supposed admission of mine meant to be based on logic ? How so ?@katan
“It is a means to an end – of keeping Yehudim and their property in EY safe.”
[yb]So, in other words, it’s worth violating G-d’s word (the oaths and the entire Torah, according to the Brisker Rav) and sending His children to be shmaded in the Zionist army and all the rest just to protect Jewish “property” in the Zionist State
[katan]
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Thats no violation of Gods Word at all.Not aiding the State and the Army in case of P/N – THAT is a violation of Gods Word.
Who clearly commanded us not to stand by , when our brothers’ innocent blood is being spilt.
Re property – Yes , that is the clear and famous psak of Sh’A , to be mehalel shabat for property.
Re who should or should not serve in an army dominated by secular mesisim and madihim , and how to balance the problem of p/n versus the individual persons yahadut – that is a valid and necessary discussion for each individual to be had with a gadol batorah ve yirat shamayim , who knows him personally.
.Hi
What happened to my post ?
Did it get stuck somewhere ?no posts waiting here from you
@katan
If Jews for J or the Mormons were running the Zionist “State” and shmading Jews there, everyone would see this perspective plainly.
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Absolutely not.
Even if Jews for J would be the elected leaders there and the majority of Jews there ,would be Jews for J ,
I would NEVER [neither should you] abandon the innocent Jewish citizens there to a rerun of Oct 7th {chas veshalom] .I simply shudder at the thought of it !
@katan
Even if there is not a way al pi derech haTeva to actively shut it down without risking Jewish lives, that means only that it needs to be dealt with as such, but not at all that it needs to be actively supported, CH”V.
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Just the opposite .
It should be supported – if said yidden will be supported , their lives and their property will be supported .
Definitely.Lo Ta’amod Al dam Re’aha is a Lav De’oraytah.
You are mehuyav to give away ALL your property not to be over a Lav Min HaTorah..
@hakatan
Even if [this is debatable] the creation of the medina was against the torah, the EXISTENCE of the medina is not. [lehol hadeyot]”That makes no sense and is also a lie. It’s actually the opposite. LiChol haDeios, the State remains just as forbidden to have as it was to create it. But since it exists, there is a need to “deal” with it like one would with any type of thugs.
The Steipler rules that way, in karyana diIgrasa, for example.
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You are losing your heskat ne’emanut here.Steipler writes CLEARLY that the issur was only in the establishment , not in its existence.
Please don’t misquote sfarim to jibe your narrative.Where is this maharal that 3 shavuot are even against pikuach nefesh ?
thanksEven if [this is debatable] the creation of the medina was against the torah,
the EXISTENCE of the medina is not. [lehol hadeyot]Dismantlement of the medina is a clear invitation to the direct …… of all the Jews in EY [chvs’h].
The only al pi derech hateva’dike force standing between the immediate mass pikuach nefesh of the yidden on one side and the murderous intentions and plans of the barbarians surrounding us , is the IDF, the extention of the medina.You can say WHAT YOU WANT about who brought us to this situation , it will not make one iota of a difference.
Pikuach Nefesh is Pikuach Nefesh is Pikuach Nefesh.Irrespective of it source.
We [and all yidden] are enjoined to do whatever possible in regard to p/n.Is the medina an end of itself? NO , chas veshalom
Is the medina a means to an end? YESIt is a means to an end – of keeping Yehudim and their property in EY safe.
For the time being , the only means to that end.where is the hafla’a ?
thanksAbout RAMBAN’s writing re someone’s Mashiach claim where he did not fulfill the nevi’ims promises during his lifetime.
It is in Kitvei HaRamaban , under Sefer Havikuach [milhamot hashem].
Ramban writes in a very clear fashion.
This is proof that he is not Mashiach.
End of story.@hakatan
pl learn avnei nezer inside
satmar rav does not explain avnei nezer
he argues with himWhats with the avnei nezer s explanation for the fact of omission of the poskim ?
@CS
“ You are the only group who imposes YOUR leader as navi, HALACHICALLY OBLIGATING , US [on the pain of mita byedei shamayim] to obey his directives.”
[yb]
——————————Never heard of this. To the best of my limited knowledge this would only be applicable if a big body of rabbis (Sanhedrin?) would pasken that this is the case. There’s no threat here, only positive motivation.
[CS]
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To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no need for a Sanhedrin or any other big body of rabbis to pasken that
1] going against a navi is mitah biyedei shamayim.
2] that this person is a navi if he indeed is a navi.So , habads claim that their leader is a navi.
No , have to correct myself here – habads leaders claim that habads leader is a navi , does not need sanhedrin nor any other body to pasken it is so.If it is true , and it obviously is, according to habad, the obligation to listen takes effect immediately.
On all of us.
Immediately.So the question is now,
Are [new]habad imposing their navi on all the rest of us ????@CS
“ THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….”
[yb]
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I hear your point. Like I said, looking for a candidate I think only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula.
[CS]
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If it “only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula”. like you claim , then why did no group in Jewish history ever adopt a ‘lets look for mashiach policy ?Was there no group of people thirsting for geula like you, in the whole 1900 plus years since the Hurban ?
Would you feel comfortable to answer ‘yes’ to the above question ?
@menachem
Not wearing a yehi yarmulke does not mean ‘not obsessed’.
If you believe – as any rank-and-file L does – that their rebbi is M, then they SHOULD be obsessed by it.Maybe in a quieter way.
Maybe they balance their ‘obsession’ with the so called ‘realities’ perceived by the non habad people around them.
That might be a reason not to wear yehi apparel.But deep down, on the inside, are they not obsessed?
Think about it. This not just some argument about whose rebbi is bigger compared to someone else’s.
This is literally earth-shattering news.M started the ge’oula.
We are on a cosmic intersection.
If you really believe it, it would be extremely hard NOT to be obsessed.
That’s only natural.And in my humble view , having read and followed their rebbi’s pronouncements and sichot on these issues, that was indeed the clear goal of their rebbi.
In my opinion, there is nothing to be embarrassed of.
Isn’t it natural for hasidim to embody their leaders’ goals ?
There is no reason to deny it.So , I would venture to say
– the MAJORITY OF HABAD DEFINITELY IS OBSESSED THAT THEIR REBBI IS M.@CS
@arso
Any discussion re the merit of habad in underground learning in Russia and all other good things they do or did , are irrelevant , at least in my opinion.
The discussion to be had , is about habad introduced novelties.Even if ,in the past all yiddishkeit would be due to habad, nevertheless the habad novelties should be dispassionately discussed and carefully analyzed.
Habad of the past should have no bearing whatsoever on habad in the present/future.
The same , regarding any habad positives . They should have no bearing on the habad novelties.Remember – we are NOT in the business of JUDGING the invidual habad people , nor the total balance of the habad movement as a whole.
We are not – Simply because we are not qualified.What we should be doing, is to investigate those specific issues within habad which have crept up in the last 60 – 70 years.
Investigate them thoroughly, without fear or favor.
An Evidence based investigation ,conducted with common sense, against the backdrop of klal yisraels timeless and collective mesorah.
That , in my mind at least , is the real purpose of this thread.Which, again, has NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER with what is sometimes [defensively] called “hate”.
Hello everyone
Shtika kehoda’a ?Avnei Nezer also asks why rambam in yad and Sh’A omit the 3 oaths and he says that this is proof that in their opinion it is not applicable to us nowadays. Only as a sign to improve our general avodat hashem.
It is in his tshuvot at the end of Helek YD.@sechel
rambam does not write the opposite.@hakatan
gimmel shevuos are OMITTED from rambams halaha sefer YAD HAHAZAKAH and from SHULHAN ARUCH.
That is a clear indication that they are NOT lehalaha.
The above is the opinion of Avnei Nezer , a gaon olam and Posek halaha lema’aseh.
One of the greatest Meshivim in Poland in his time.It’s eerily quiet ….
@sechel
HKBH ‘promoted’ Moshe R .
Through the nissim He made thru Moshe.
Not the yidden promoted him.
It took time , but it succeeded – the yidden left mitsrayim in his lifetime.Your leader had his time.
He used it, but he did NOT succeed .
We are still here – in Galut.
It’s pure folly to fight against reality.@sechel
What’s not logical about mentioning notsrims use of habad activities ?
What’s not logical about saying that habads ‘coca cola promotion of’ and ‘looking for candidates’ for M, is totally new and has no precedent anywhere in Jewish history?
What’s not logical about saying that the more you need to promote something , the more obvious its weakness is ?We never claimed all you do is promotion of your rebbe.
We know you generally aim to keep sh’o.
That was never the issue.The issue is what you BELIEVE IN , and what you PROMOTE.
Notsrim USE habad’s meshigaas for their own purposes.
They claim
1] If you believe your leader is M , why cant you believe ours is
2] If your leader is atsmut melubash beguf, then why cant you believe the same for ours
3] if your leader doesn’t have to implement the promises of the nevi’im to be counted as M , then why do you expect it from our leader
4] If your leader is afforded the privilege of a second coming, then why s our leader not privileged of the sameWhat are you going to answer ?
That their leader forsook the the torah ?
Not true. All available evidence says that he kept the torah.
it was his talmidim who forsook the torahAnd when the REAL Mashiach will come there will be NO NEED of promotion.
He will be accepted by Klal Yisrael.
HKBH will affect any promotion needed.
It says nowhere, and is against our mesorah , for us to have to ‘promote’ Mashiach.
His actions and his essence will be so convincing, that NO promotion will be needed.Promotion is sign of weakness, not of strength …..
@ sechel
For many decades habad itself was DENYING that they secretly want to promote their leader as M .Why were they not saying what you are so confidently proclaiming on these pages ?
This nothing new . Rizhin . Tshernobil. Habad themselves .The Gra. etc. etc
Why not ?
The simple answer – they knew that these type of arguments are only going to provoke ridicule and laughter.
No Hug, hasidut , yeshiva / community EVER , promoted a M like habad does now.
.
Which warrants investigation.@sechel
NO ONE .
Not now AND not then ,
had a well organized propaganda machine, brainwashing naive people i.e. baalei tshuva and the innocent little kids born to habad parents and the rest of klal yisrael that one should “look for mashiach candidates’ and then ,’promote him’, Coca-Cola like.NO ONE>
This a total new thing . A first.
.
I [and neither do you, nor anyone else alive now] don’t know in what context and when R’N miTzernobel said what he said as a onetime utterance [if he said it at all].
I am not convinced that he said it.
Be that as it may, the FACT IS , and remains , that neither in Tshernobil now , nor in Tshernobil at any time , nor in any of the Courts who are mityahes to R’N, is/was there anything even remotely resembling the stupid M frenzy prevalent in habad nowadays.THIS IS A DEFINITE NEW PHENOMENON.
Which warrants investigation. Which is duly happening on these pages – and elsewhere.
And which is legitimate and even called for.
And which is definitely not a sign of ‘hate’.We SHOULD investigate anything against the Mesorah.
Any movement and new idea.
Investigate its claims , its origins , its repercussions and its aims.The Real Mashiach is obviously part of the Mesorah.
But habads new hidushim are not.@sechel
by chassidim it was done for many generations, in ruzin, tzenabel habad etc…
[sechel]
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Absolutely not.
There was no ‘lets look for M candidate policy’ nor was there a ‘Lets promote the best candidate’ policy in any of these places.
Nowadays there is no zeher of such a policy in ANY of the many rizhine hasiduyot.
Not a zeher.Nor is there any zeher of this in Tsjernobil.
Nor in any of the other Tsj. offshoots like rachmestrivk or skver etcIn habad of yore , in Russia were they busy with any of these meshigas ?
I am not talking about what a few hasidim might have said between themselves after they had one vodka too much.
I am talking about a hasidut wide obsession. Which they are mehaneh their offspring with.New generations who never saw their leader as a human being.
They only hear about him as some sort of God clothed in human form.Who knows where this going to lead in another few generations ….
@CS
I think when the term hater is used, is when The person isn’t actually interested in an answer, and any answer you give will not be satisfactory.
[CS]
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What happens when there is no satisfactory answer ?
Should we accept an unsatisfactory answer, just out of fear not to be labeled ‘hater’ ?
Or do we have the right to insist on proper answers ?@sechel
You bring proof to habad innovations for the last 50 years from ….. a habad propaganda sefer printed in the last 50 years.
Arvach arva tsarich ……@sechel
We all claim what we do is the mesorah.
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there is no mesorah anywhere for ‘looking for candidates for M’ .
Nowhere, not in habad . Not in mainstream Judaism.@sechel
There are many things that litvaks do that i think is not mesorah …
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there you go again.
I am reminded of a seventh grader protesting to his teacher – but he also did it ….There no comparison whatsoever between the issues.
So clearly this is not a new thing, (maybe by the litvaks is wasn’t done for many generations, so the question is on them not us,
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Not ‘by the litvaks’ it was not done.
Rather ‘by the Jews’ it was not done.
Not in Sefarad lands.
No record of talmidei harif or harambam.
not in Askenaz lands .
Not Rashi, not Tosfot, not the Rosh.
Not in Bavel by the Ge’onim.
Not in Russia ,Poland or Hungary.
Not the Magen Avraham. Not the Bach.
Not the Haftez Haim . Not the Hatam Sofer. not r Haim mibrisk.@CS
please show me your examples of the Rebbe starting on another Gadol BYisrael
[CS]
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What did your rebbi say on purim 1956 [or another one of those years] about the hazon ish ?
The exact words , please ?
and what was the insinuation, please ?
Thanks in advance for your honesty .@ujm
I wrote this post TO cs.
Not the other way around.@CS
This would seem to be the natural Torah position (in addition to what’s already posted regarding the Rambam being a Halacha lmaase sefer).
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You keep on repeating the Rambam fallacy again and again.
Cannot understand how you see any proof in the Rambam’s words re the advisability for ‘looking for the most suitable candidate in each generation’.This is against our Mesorah and the Rambam’s words prove absolutely nothing.
Again- in no other group in klal Yisrael is there any ‘looking for candidates’ going on.
Yours is the only one ….@CS
Where is your source for this assertion? You know it’s actually pretty common among many frum Jews, or at least was, to dread Moshiach’s coming instead of eagerly anticipating it. This is not in line with Torah, to the best of my knowledge, in fact the Rambam has a harsh term for such a person.If geula is real to you, and you eagerly anticipate Moshiach’s coming every day, you will be on the lookout for potential candidates as a natural result. I’ve been curious about the yanuka when I heard such rumors, and I’m always keeping an ear open for geula related news.
This would seem to be the natural Torah position (in addition to what’s already posted regarding the Rambam being a Halacha lmaase sefer).
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To dread M ‘s coming ??
I would not dare to put such a libel onto the holy leaders of klal yisrael ledoroteihem , whose mesorah we collectively follow.
It was under THEIR watch where the ‘looking for candidates’ policy was not implemented.
The [real] ge’ula was [probably] more real to them than to you.Nevertheless , said policy was NOT implemented.
Which leaves the question- eliminating your anticipation for the ge’ula as a valid cause, why are you more eager than our Greats to ‘look for candidates’ ?Does it have anything to do with the candidacy of a specific person ? Guess who …
Or is it merely an innocent longing for the general ge’ula ?Clue for some evidence – this looking for candidates policy – does it happen to overlap with those who happen to promote a specific candidate ???
@CS
Then we get called out like we’re pushing something on people. This is the pattern pretty much every time…
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Please do not put your words in to our mouth.All we’ve said is . other Rebeim , rabanim and public personalities are not called ‘lightweight’ on these pages even though they conceivably could fit the bill.
Why is habad different ?That was the question / protest by haleivi.
The difference is clear-
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is MY mashiach.
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is MY nasi. [nasi HADOR]
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is a Prophet like Haggai Zharya and Malahi ,
You are the only group who imposes YOUR leader as navi, HALACHICALLY OBLIGATING , US [on the pain of mita byedei shamayim] to obey his directives.
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is greater than Moshe Our Teacher [who spoke with God peh el peh]After hearing those outlandish earth shattering claims, and instead of accepting them blindly, we obviously examine the evidence, and the candidate is lacking.
Now the question is [and was] –
WHO put the rebbi of the habad devotees in the spotlight , to be examined ?
The habad people ,with their absurd once in a world history claims, or the rest of the Jews ?@CS
Sorry ,but You are not getting it [again].
We are not ba’alei tshuva.
And we are not geirim either.
[no offense intended to any of the above]We BH have a mesorah.
We are also well versed in the responsa and commentaries of our rebeim [meaning the gdolei haposkim and the gdolei hador] of the centuries which preceded us.
Our best and our finest dedicate their lives and their [formidable] total intellects to arrive at the real intent of their haskafa and halaha.
When we say that we NEVER were “looking for candidates”, and that we never “promoted the candidate deemed most fitting” , then that means that it isAGAINST THE MESORAH TO DO SO
A mesorah which carries the combined weight of ALL of klal yisraels rebeim of all the generations.
vechol hameshaneh yado al hatachtona.
Nothing less than Clear proof will be needed.I hope that even you , who never leared a sugya be’iyun [referring here to halaha be’iyun or umka dishmaatsa] , nor had any close association with gdolei hador who did learn sugyot be’iyun, will understand that this not a joking matter.
Nor is the purported proof/remez/gematria/wishful thinking from the divrei rambam a joking matter.1] We know the mesora , our fathers, grandfathers , great grandfathers were not osek in ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’
2] No tshuvot of anyone of authority, during the ages mention anything re ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’
3] There is no proof whatsoever from divrei rambam for ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….
@CS
Dovid Hamelech lived close to 3 thousand years ago. If you consider 30 years as the average for it to be considered a ‘new’ generation , we are talking about one hundred generations [about].
In ten generations ,every person has 1026 antecedents . Of your 1026 grandparents ,after you go back the first ten generations, each one has , going back another ten generations , another 1026 antecedents.
Another 10 generations equals another 1026 forebears. Do your math- 1026 times 1026 times 1026 equals ?Over one trillion zaidies and bubbies for each of us , all living in the times of Dovid hamelech.
There weren’t so many zaidies , simply because not so many of them existed in dovid hamelech’s times.
So we will HAVE to say that many zaidies and bobbies are a multiplication of ‘zaidihood’.
And that statistically speaking, it would be very unlikely if anyone in that generation would not be a bobby or zaidy.
So probably we would be hard pressed to find someone nowadays who we could categorise as a NON GRANDSON of Dovid Hamelech.All the rebbes nowadays have an impressive yichus going back to the most meyuhas mishpachot in klal yisrael, this is well known.
If you go through their yichus you will most certainly get to Dovid Hamelech .
.
If you are looking for ben ahar ben , I don’t think that the leader of the habad hasidim is either. edited@sechel
we already discussed ramban elsewhere. learn perek hachelek, hilchos melochim then the ramban and come back .
[sechel]
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remember the following principle – the flimsier the answers , the glibber the avoidance , the weaker your position is.
[quote from my previous post]GLIB AVOIDANCE .
Nothing more.
The Ramban is crystal clear.
Continue to avoid. the only result will be this :
You are WEAKENING your own position.@sechel
I don’t have the time to unpick your propaganda one by one right now.
It is nothing more than that –PROPAGANDA.
Soviet style.
But hope to get to it once bezrH.
@CS
1] You are missing the point . Totally.
You totally ignore the issue . Which is – You [attempt] to use the rambam as proof that we are supposed to ‘look for candidates for M’ and ‘promote’ the ones we think is the closest.
THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER from divrei rambam to your premise .AGREED OR NOT ?
2] Re accepted practice for the idea of ‘looking for candidates’ . The very simple answer is – it has never been done .
there is no record of it in any serious discussion of gdolei hador since hurban habayit.If someone popped up and claimed the mantle , only then was there a discussion.
Again. Not in the Ge’onim. Not in the rishonim. Not in the Poskim not in the aharonim, do we find any discussion of looking for a candidate. [Even though the RBSH’O would undoubtedly have someone ready if needed.]
Not until 50 years ago. In a very specific chug. For a very specific and obvious purpose.Get rid , only for one second of your bias [if possible] , and the sheer truth of what I am telling you , will hit you like a ton of bricks.
.Hemshech of Summary .
There is no source whatsoever for this idea that we are meant to ‘look for candidates’ for M.
Nor is there any source that we should promote anyone’s ‘candidacy’.
This is totally HKBH’s job.Our job is to keep the torah.
And screen all pretenders ,without fear or favor, according to the timeless criteria mentioned by our truly great , like the Rambam and the Ramban.And remember that criticism and scrutiny on one side have no connection whatsoever with hate on the other side.
And also remember the following principle – the flimsier the answers , the glibber the avoidance , the weaker your position is.
.