yankel berel

@ arso
Can someone cite for me the first source for the celebration of 20 Kislev being due to the Baal Hatanya being taken to the misnaged’s house?

It seems so strange – according to the story he said that the hours he spent in the misnaged’s house were worse than the entire time he spent in prison – to have a MAJOR celebration based on that. Furthermore, it seems so out-of-sync with today’s Lubavich and their claimed love of every Yid.
——-
Question back – Re ahavat yisrael .

Who does a habad hasid love more ? a mechalel shabbat [even shana upiresh] or a frum ‘mitnaged’ ?
.

@ always ask
You mean
According to the Sh’A preferences [- meaning the RBSH’O ‘s preferences ……]
Appellation of R is mandated by Sh”A .
Not optional .
.
Neither to satisfy ‘readers preferences’ .
No difference whether the towns name is following the first name, or not .
This is Accepted all over klal yisrael .
.
Met someone in shul a few months ago , a very nice guy , a talmid chacham , was discussing some halacha with him and in the middle of the conversation he tells me the following – you know Moshe Feinstein writes about this ….
.
Was SHOCKED to hear his name mentioned without appellation…..
.

@qwerty
yes

@menachem
REALLY TO ALL

I took Menachems advice and was not relying on mere ‘hearsay’ as it was quoted to me by the habad hasid in EY [who claimed that there is a part of the sicha which is NOT PRINTED and only for PNIMI , only for habad consumption] but checked it out in torat menachem itself ,and want to share with the readership here the bottom line of the sicha

1] The chazon ish missed out on learning tanya

2] Therefore Chazon ish , now in olam ha’elyon , is jealous of a simple student of the habad yeshiva

3] The chazon Ish is standing now , begging to be let in to hear this simple student learning tanya, but he is refused entry and has to stay outside

4] seemingly there is no hope for him – ever,

but 5] after Thchiyat hametim when mashiach [! – guess who THAT is …] will teach the pnimiyut of the torah , then EVEN the chazon ish will be permitted to enter to hear and learn from mashiach [! – again ,guess who THAT is ….].

6] that is how the passuk ‘ki lo yidach mimemu kol nidach’ [which customarily is invoked as teaching that even the greatest sinner will merit olam haba] will be fulfilled …..
.

I will leave an empty space here for the reader to fully digest what was said here .
And to fully digest what the desired and obvious results of these words are ….

@menachem
R Chaim was not habad . In non habad context , you are right .
.
In habad context – reality proves you wrong .
.
This a unique habad phenomenon .
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It is a pattern , obvious to all non partisan people .
.
As mentioned in previous posts , you are biased and therefore cannot sit in judgement on your own ‘father’ in this regard [even though you spent countless hours learning his words]
.
You cannot fathom [the obvious] that he would manipulate his hasidim to apply those concepts to him , himself .
.
Ki Ha Shochad Ye’aver ……

@qwerty
you’r hilarious

@arso
thanks

@menachem
[Quote]
I didn’t say it about “those who have kashas on Lubavich”. I said it to explain my occasional silence on this thread (to answer the childish claim of “shtika k’hodaa (no, I don’t ch”v mean that the klal is childish. I mean that it’s childish to apply it to this context)).

My point is very simple: Over the 26 pages of this thread, it is quite obvious that (some of) the opponents to Lubavitch on this thread (especially yankel and qwerty) are staunchly opposed to Lubavitch, and will attack (almost) any argument that I make.
Honestly, the same is the other way around: I am staunchly Lubavitch, and I’ll probably disagree with (almost) any attack against Lubavitch made here on the thread.
—
Stop , stop please . Misunderstanding . Am NOT attacking habad as a whole.
Only certain aspects of it . They are our brothers and do have a lot to offer . Hope that’s abundantly clear from all my posts until now . Repeating this here ‘lehotsi miliban …
—
This is the reason why this thread (and many other similar threads) are just going in circles with endless arguments and questions. Questions that are really meant as תירוצים for explaining the “problems with Lubavitch” or the “maalos of Lubavitch” (from each side respectively).
—
Here we get to the kernel of the issue .
we are NOT discussing the ma’ala vs. the chisaron of habad . Far from it . If you think that , you are missing the point . The ma’ala is agreed on .
The argument is whether there is something problematic here [irrespective of the maala] or not . We say there is , you say there is not .
——
Therefore, when I’m being pummeled by dozens of questions on many different ideas, and I know that most of what I say won’t actually change the minds that are already set – I’m not really interested in working on answering every single question.

To say that this implies some sort of admission of guilt is ridiculous.
———-
“Shtika ke hoda’a” is referring to specific arguments made , specific questions , when they are met by the chief habad defendants on this thread , menachem and nomesorah , with either totally ridiculous assertions , sidestepping [nomesorah] or ‘retreat to the bunker’ tactics [menachem].

Again , not regarding habads ma’alot [of which there are many] . But of habads Chesronot or problems . When REPEATEDLY the issues are not dealt with .
The question is – why are they not dealt with ?

Obvious reply is , there IS NO ADEQUATE ANSWER . Hence Shtika Ke Hoda’a ….
Now – according to Menachem there is a rebuttal – R Chaim !

R Chaim absolves us from answering , because the kushiyot are teirutsim .
If someone can make head or tail of this argument , please , I am all ears ….
—-
P.S. Regarding your later point:

I agree that Lubavitchers have an agenda. They feel that their derech will immensely improve the avodas Hashem of all Yidden, which is why they feel the need to spread it to anyone they come in contact with (however, I disagree with many of your examples).

—-
[As a Side point]
Problem is that there are strings attached to their derech .
Acceptance of a ‘personality centered ‘ avoda . As opposed to a ‘Boreh centered’ avoda .
Acceptance of totally illogical twists and turns ,designed to further their own position ,while trampling on time honored and commonsense traditions .
Acceptance of innovations and inverted realities .
.
Same derech of habad – without any of the above would find nearly no resistance .
.
BOTTOM LINE
There are valid questions raised in this thread – with NO VALID ANSWERS ….
If there are answers out there, please …..
Is it Shtika KeHoda’a ? Or Not ?

@arso
will try bln to check
you probably saw menachems reply.

@qwerty
Simple . Question is whether the so called ‘looking down’ is a hasid initiated practice or initiated milema’ala.
If said sicha is true … , that is .
Hope that makes sense.

A) I am not Chabad….
Irrelevant to the discussion

B) Most people don’t care about theology. When it is printed in some public forum, most people read right past it.
—
Theology promulgated by your rabbanim and backed by your rebbi ? Theology regarding identity of mashiach ? theology re timing of his coming ? theology re existence of nevua ?
Come On ……
Seems like am older than you and have seen more than you .
Remember those times myself . ALL RELIGIOUS JEWS followed the escalating pronouncements from 770.
This argument reminds of a cave man who has never seen the sun trying to convince the guy standing outside that the sun does not exist .
I WAS THERE . I LIVED THROUGH THOSE TIMES . I MYSELF ….. You are telling me whether people were or were not paying attention ….Totally Absurd .

C) Associating ideas (Such as the reebe is moshiach.) with theological notions, is not theology. It is polemics or propaganda. Or it has another meaning. This thinking tool is so crucial to any conversation about the Ikkarim, that I doubt you have any real grasp on them.
—-
So here you are at odds with the habad rabbanim mashpi’im and their rebbe himself . They used theology . they based it on theology . They proved it from theology .

D) I think that when one only sees emunah problems by one group of yidden, that it is hate.
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Circular argument . Your statement is only valid if at the conclusion of the argument it has been established that they be’emet have no ‘problems’ [as you call them] and one still ‘sees’ clear non existent problems.

E) My understanding is that prophecy is always attainable. The fact that we are lacking in even one prophet giving directives to others, doesn’t have any significance to me.
—
Last recorded nevua I know of is Chagai Zecharia and Malachi.
Am happy to be updated with more [concrete names and dates please plus acceptance by klal yisrael]

F) I understand most of The Rebbe’s teachings in a kabbalistic sense. I don’t know what you think about them.
—
the relevant ‘teachings’ to this discussion [time of mashiachs arrival , identity of mashiach , nevua] are not kabbalistic at all .

G) I see Lubavitcher teachings as a whole much more traditional then most other groups.
—
How The other teachings ‘are seen’ is a matter of opinion [they might be seen by other people the same or different] and in my eyes irrelevant here . The issue I mentioned are those mashiach / nevua pronouncements mentioned before , and they are clearly ‘not traditional ‘.

H) Not every word of Torah that is taught is intended to fit with every other word that was ever taught.
—-
So ?

And this is were Chabad is getting hit from both sides. When there is an internal rational for something that Chabad is already doing, (Like not sleeping in the sukkah.) then it is seen as an affront to others, Why don’t you realize that it is merely a justification for what they do, and is not intended for others (that do sleep in the sukkah)?
—
never mentioned anything about the sukka , [although it is problematic]

But then when Chabad spreads their core teachings that most groups are oblivious to, then it is “don’t you realize that we are not Chabad”?!?! So then why did you assume that the other stuff applied to you. (Chabad isn’t going around that others should not sleep in the sukkah to bring the geulah.)
—–
again , never mentioned anything about that either [although I understand where they are coming from ]

And what is even funnier, is that you have a whole bunch of missionaries on this site, for Zionism, Anti Zionism, College Degrees, No Secular Education, Republicans, Democrats, Trump, and nobody tells them these are not important in my crowd. Comes along a Lubavitcher and hints to how moshiach will enlighten the world, and all of a sudden, it’s how dare you bring that up to us! We know that an Anti Zionist, Democrat like Trump with no secular education is what the world really needs!!!!!!!!!!!
—
again , never mentioned anything about that either

@menachem
you misunderstood me .
my question is very simple . R Chaims obvious intention was that it impossible to argue back on something which serves as A COVER foe something deeper [in his case discarding of yahadut] . You brought RC as rationale why you are not answering .
My question is , and was
– WHAT IN YOUR OPINION IS COVERING OUR QUESTIONS , thereby absolving you from answering ?
Are we going to get an answer on this one , [or does RC apply to this question too] ?

@CS
they lost face at the time of their first uturn . After years of strenuously accusing those who said that habad is [secretly] promoting their rebbi as mashiach . They accused them of sinas chinam [sounds familiar ..].
It was all one big libel against them .
They even mobilised all other hasidim to defend them against those ‘haters’ , who accused them of this blood libel , as if they want to promote their rebbi as mashiach .
Then they made a [huge] uturn, discrediting themselves .
Acknowledging their own rebbi’s messiahship.
And in the process , give huge credence to those so called ‘haters’ , who were busy with so called sinas chinam ……
That was only uturn number one ……

@menachem
Qwerty,

If you think we misunderstood you explain yourself.

I told yankel berel that he misunderstood me. Why do you write “we”? I wasn’t talking about you!

Oh, I forgot. You’re on his chess team.
————-
Hello — Menachem . still waiting for an explanation
Yankel

@ nomesorah
…….A kol korei does not reflect reality….
——-
So, according to you the reality was not that the habad hasidim considered their rebbi to be the messiah and therefore could not die before accomplishing his mission ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
So according to you , a kol korei and articles by the leading rabbanim and mashpi’im of habad do not reflect and shape opinion within habad hasidim ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
So according to you a kol korei and articles by the leading rabbanim and mashpi’im of habad do not reflect the wishes of their leader ?
An honest Yes or no answer ?
.
Honesty , my dear nomesorah , honesty . A rare commodity ….
.

@menachem
RECAP OF THE CONVERSATION
Now- R Menachem Shmei . . should we apply the klal of Shtika KeHoda’a here or not
—–
מוחה מוחה מוחה

P.S. I’m reminded of the famous story of Reb Chaim Brisker (I think). Someone was asking him questions in emuna, and he didn’t respond.
Later, he explained why he remained silent:
פאר א קשיא, קען איך געבן א תירוץ. אבער איך קען ניט געבן א תירוץ פאר א תירוץ…
=======================================================
Why did R Chaim call it a ‘teiruts’ ?
Because those ‘arguments’ were only a fig leaf for the guy’s previous decision to discard yahadut to satisfy his base desires . He needed justification , so he found some ‘kushiyot’ which served excellently as ‘teirutsim’ to absolve him from guilt feelings over his attachment to his yetser hara.
Please , in a moment of honesty – is that the case here ? The doubts about habad are A RESULT of discarding yahadut ?
—
No, it is not. You misunderstood me.
================================
So , Menachem , what was your real intention ?

@ nomesorah
I don ‘t care for any official statements from any group. Kol korei culture is meaningless to me.

I am not Chabad at all. I don’t shun them either. There is a lot of great kosher fun to be had. Like, spending a day with an bunch of frum bochurim who know how to learn and actually learn. Or an all night bull session about deep concepts without canceling each other. Sorry that you are missing out.
—————–
1] Am not habad either .
However Don’t shun them either.
Criticism of modern habad theology is not necessarily a reason to shun them .
2] Ignoring kol korei culture – is tantamount to ignoring reality .
Not recognizing that what I wrote was AN ACCURATE REFLECTION OF UNIVERSAL HABAD BELIEFS pre 1996 , is a prime example of IGNORING REALITY , which you either do willfully , which is disingenuous .
Or not willfully , in which case any further comment is totally superfluous [to put it mildly]
3] Judging from your comments ,you seem to have a vested interest in sidestepping and thereby defending the indefensible.

@potato
1] You are turning yourself into a pretsel to convince us into believing mashiach comes from the dead .
.
Do you realise that it was HABAD ITSELF ,proclaiming [in the same way as you do now] to all and sundry that mashiach comes only from the alive ?
.
Do you realize that the more you talk about this topic the more untrustworthy you appear ?
.
2] Criticism of habad theology is not hate ,nor sinat hinam . When will you realize that ?
Its just that.
Criticism .
Nothing more.

@ menachem
————————–
qwerty to menachem
We’ve kept our end of the deal, but you’ve bowed out. I agree with Yankel Berel Shtikah Kihoda, If you can’t defend your position, you have no position.
———-
menachem to qwerty

Qwerty, you haven’t answered the question that I directed at you SEVEN times.
========================
yankel to menachem

1] You also did not answer any [of the many] questions raised by me ……

2] If the only answer is
moche , moche , moche
and nothing substantial ….. that is also shtikah …….

@nomesorah
original post
D] Habad , under clear direction of their Rebbe , their rabbanim and their mashpi’im , flip flopped regarding ikarei emuna.
———————————
response by nomesorah
D] I don’t really understand why you could think that Ikkarei Emunah are in play here. If you think that everybody starts off being born with them and has to mess them up, then your position would seem tenable. It doesn’t work that way. Every chareidi propaganda publication, messes up on Ikkarei Emunah. How would they not ?
=================================
D response] you ask ‘why I could think ikarei emuna are at play here’ . Simple because thats what all habad rabbanim invoked when they issued their unanimous psak that their rebbi COULD NOT DIE. They and the Chief Chozer of Habad . R yoel Kahn .
[This response of yours creates a niggling doubt that your responses might just be nothing more than a diversion tactic] .This was not merely ‘some propaganda publication’ . This is serious stuff. This was signed by all habad rabbanim and the chozer , clearly based on their rebbi . The OFFICIAL HABAD POSITION . Then the position split . But according to both sides , this psak , based on ikarei emuna , changed .
So , did they flip flop ?
CLEARLY SO .
.
Now- R Menachem Shmei , nomesorah , sechel , and whoever else – should we apply the klal of Shtika KeHoda’a here or not ?

@ nomesorah
original post
B] habad hasidim [near]deify their rebbi , more so than any other group or sect in klal Yisrael ever.
—-
nomesorah
B] This is debatable. But if you change “deify their rebbe” to ‘associate their rebbe with the divine’, Then I agree. This slight wordplay, is a big difference in theology and philosophy.
.
B response] The main point you left out – “MORE SO THAN ANY OTHER GROUP IN KLAL YISRAEL”
.
-whether the ‘heter’ to pray to their rebbi [given by the rebbi himself],
-whether the rebbi is defined by atsmus umehus [i.e. the essence of God] clothed in a human body [again, defined by their rebbi himself] ,
-whether the rebbi is the joyful bearer of nevua mamash [again – news delivered their rebbi himself]
-whether rebbi is the ‘head’ of the klal ,as spelt in Rosh Bnei Yisrael [RBY], where the whole chiyut and life of every yehudi [not only his hasidim] is totally dependent on the habad rebbi , and if this would stop for one second their life would immediately stop. [again , told to us by their rebbi]
.
Whether all of the above [and more] should be categorised as , [1] “deify their rebbe” OR as, [2] ‘associate their rebbe with the divine’, is not that important . As long as we agree on what’s IN the jar , even if we do not agree on the label.
.
We can agree then – That The above is COMPLETE ANATHEMA in any other sect or group in klal yisrael .

@sechel
When will you realize that criticism on habad theology is NOT at all the same as “finding fault in others” which is “spoken out against in almost every perek in shas,and you say it countless times in davening” .
Far from it .
.
You do not want to follow a lie , or believe in a lie . For that you have to shed your naivete , and examine the issues . After that’s done and you arrived at a satisfactory conclusion , you can be naive again [a wonderful ma’ala] learn hasidut and aspire to something higher [a wonderful way of life].
.
THERE IS NO CONNECTION AT ALL BTWEEN SO CALLED “HATE” AND EXAMINING MODERN HABADS CLAIMS TO MESSIAHSHIP , DIVINITY AND NEVIUT.

Dear Yankel,

“The attitude of habad hasidim toward their rebbe exceeds by far , the attitude of other talmidim towards their rebbe , and even the attitude of other hasidim towards their rebbe.”
——————————————————–
Completely untrue. Maybe you were born yesterday. Maybe you will be born again tomorrow.

That is the proper attitude of a talmid for a rebbe. Everything the rebbe says is unequivocally the Word of the Torah. (A wise student knows not to retain everything as is.)
AND IT IS ONLY HALF OF WHAT R BORUCH BER WAS TO HIS REBBE …..
==========================================================
1] Even R Boruch Ber did not deify his Rebbe .
2] His Rebbe R Chaim had NO PART WHATSOEVER in r BB ‘s respect toward him . It was TOTALLY on r BB’s part .
3] R BB ‘s respect toward his Rebbe was an outgrowth of his immense Tsidkut in ALL OTHER AREAS of yahadut . Likewise he was IMMENSELY scared of chet . He was IMMENSELY absorbed in his learning , in his kibbud av , in his chesed etc. etc. — His respect was merely a REFLECTION of his inner stature , not the result of some targeted brainwash.
4] R BB was a yachid . There is NO other sector in klal yisrael , as a klal ,comparable to habad . To reject that, is like rejecting the existence of the sun .

@nomesorah
Dear Yankel,
————————
“Re
used socks
Please check the original post .
It was not referring to hasidic socks at all .

It was referring to changing IKAREI EMUNA , things which are the ABSOLUTE FOUNDATIONS of our belief , like used socks ”
—————————————–
I take exception to your posts having anything to do with Ikarei Emunah.
===========================================================
Dear NOm
Please check the following post [the above post was referring to the following post]. There is a clear reference to ikarei emuna there ….
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
…… Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .

the bris thing was directed by The Rebbe. [CS]
——————-
There you are. The personality and picture ‘deification’ WAS directed by their rebbe.
Not by any of the previous rebbes .
Not by any of the other habad dynasties – kapust liadi etc .
Not by the Malachim .
Not by the Rashag , had he not capitulated , and had he continued with his leadership as his mother in law , the rabbanit Shneerson [the wife of the Rayats] wanted him to .
.
All the others did not have any messianic aspirations .
That is the difference .
.
As simple as can be .