yankel berel

@Neville

I understand that kasheh
[why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994]
, but it always just turns into a machlokes hametzius since habad are just going to deny that they ever held that way before 1994.
—————————
It is not a machloket bemetse’ut, since they have not ever denied that they held RAMBAM as the last authoritative posek for their mashiach matters.
They have not denied their own use of RAMBAM’s YAD HACHAZAKA to further their own rebbi’s candidacy.

I vividly remember them using RAMBAM in service of their mashiach craziness.

So please, let’s start calling a spade a spade ….

@menachem
It was not a church session.
It was an outdoor ‘event’ comprising of xtian tourists in EY.
They were congregating outside a habad house which was showing a video of their rebbi which passersby were free to watch.
He was standing close to them, so he happened to overhear their comments.
I also happen know which habad house it was.

@Neville
The following was the original post [on page 21] re habad accepting / rejecting RAMBAM’s words re mashiach
————–
Habad does not reject Rambam’s criteria for Mashiach.
Not at all.
At least until a certain day in 1994, that is.
Until that day, habad was extremely busy trumpeting Rambam’s every word and how it corresponds oh so meticulously with their leader.
So, notwithstanding Shmei’s erudition, after bakashat mehila, I don’t think he will be able to furnish you [and the rest of us] with a logical explanation why Rambam’s words stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 …
————-
The question was – and still is , until some answer will somehow appear ….

why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 ????

That question has NOT been addressed at all, to the best of my knowledge.

Nu ???

@menachem
I am an avid reader of your comments defending habad and I have NO RECOLLECTION of any of your comments on this particular topic . Would you mind copying and paste them here ?

@ non political

You are correct, I used the apikorsut and avoda zara interchangeably.

It depends WHY this particular person believes that a tsadiq cannot make a mistake. If it is that he thinks that HKBH shields the tsadiq from a mistaken sin, then he is not an apikorus, just an am haarets . He doesn’t know the gemara.

But if he does know the gemara , and still holds by his shita that his [!] tsadiq cannot make a mistake simply because he ‘is HKBH himself’ [afra lepumayu] , and like God by definition is infallible, so too is his[!] tsadiq, infallible

That is apikorsus.

Clear and Pashut.

@non political
… ‘If He chooses to prevent someone from making a mistake He can do that’ …
=========
No one ever claimed that God cannot protect a tsadiq from sinning beshogeg.
All I said was , that THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT A TZADIQ cannot transgress the torah beshogeg , even if due to a mistake of theirs.
The tzadiq can sin by mistake , and we find holy Tanna’im , who did, as is clearly documented in Gmara.
Therefore, to argue otherwise is close to apikorsus, as there are clear guemarot saying the same.

@non political
…. one believed that Hashem is committed to guiding leaders such that they won’t make a mistake ….
———————
This is against a famous tosefot , based on guemarot, that HKBH only safeguards tzadiqim from mistakes pertaining to food ingested into their bodies, but not on any other mistakes.
That’s how holy tana’im erred and came beshogeg to isurei de’orayta.
Infallibility belongs to God only.

Yes, it is the vast majority. .
It is logical , as that’s what their rebbi himself promoted.

@somejewiknow

Without the idf ,now, there is a mass pikuach nefesh.
You have not given ANY OTHER WAY to take away this pikuah nefesh.

So, if you cannot find another way to take away the p/n and you do not give a VALID reason not to be drafted in the idf [if they really need you] …. then you are just shofeh damim.

Shofeh damim shel Rabbim !

@qwerty
The Ibn Ezrah is in Jonah 2:1 as far as I remember. Although he doesn’t say it exactly the way I quoted him.
Have a look at the Malbim, at Radak and Metsudot.
Think it is the Malbim who clearly references the lack of air.

@philosopher
Think it was you who mentioned the issue of Jonah being in such pain [not be able the breathe] for such a long time , for 3 days ? [Same about Yaakov forever]
Cf. Rashi and other commentaries who reference hazal who were medayek in the psukim that in the beginning he was inside a male fish, and Jonah did not see a need to pray, so the male fish spit him out and when he was inside the female fish , he was uncomfortable so he started praying.
It couldn’t have been too uncomfortable inside the male fish , notwithstanding the lack of air.

@philosopher
Correct and valid.

@philosopher
So my question to you is why didn’t you tell Shmei and Arso who were arguing what the Ramban says on Rashi, why didn’t you tell them that what you told me “@philosopher Quoting RAMBAN does not convince anyone of shitat RASHI”? NOW you are saying that when I bought the complete Ramban so everyone can see exactly what the Ramban is saying?
——-
To be honest – I wasn’t following this discussion from up close as I consider it a mere distraction to the main issue. Happened to see your post so I reacted.

The main issue is habads self contradictory innovations and pretzel maneuverings , cloaked in selective and misleading quotes coupled with deceptive sugarcoated statements.
Leading to …. ?
.

@philosopher
It seems that RAMBAN and R BACHAY disagree with RASHI. They are stating their own opinion, not like RASHI.

FROM THE NEWS . ANY RELEVANCE TO OUR DISCUSSION ???

On the streets of Beirut, Hezbollah supporters are reacting in one of two ways to their leader’s death: denial or defiance.

“He is alive,” said Fatme Hosni el Age, who fled the Israeli bombing in Lebanon’s south and sought refuge in the capital.

“Everyone is saying that he is alive. They spread rumours saying he is dead, but he is alive and they hid him.”

She is one of many Hezbollah supporters the ABC spoke to who can’t believe the leader of their movement, for years a seemingly untouchable figure, was killed by Israeli air strikes on Hezbollah’s headquarters in southern Beirut on Friday.

@philosopher
Quoting RAMBAN does not convince anyone of shitat RASHI.

@menachem

Yakov would not be ‘in a deep sleep’ because how didn’t the embalmers notice his breathing ?
And his pulse ?
It says they thought him being dead ?

It could be that his brain was functioning bederech nes without oxygen supply, and that was the measure of life within his body.
Thats why it does not say vayamat.

@ARSo

Going back to our previous discussion re mashiach min hameitim-
It is clear from RAMBAM that he was concerned about lack of credibility .

That any and all pretenders to the throne can and therefore will attempt to usurp it.
He [in igeret teiman] states with certainty that it [false pretenders] will happen in the leadup to the true mashiach.
So how are we [klal israel] meant to differentiate between the pretender and rightful possessor of mashiach’s name ?

[Rambam similarly is concerned [hilch yesode torah] about the differentiation between a navi sheker and navi emet . How can we know who is emet and who not ? ]

In the case of mashiach, RAMBAM gives us a simple test . Results.
It is results based .
So if someone CLAIMS the mashiach mantle , he is directed to the RESULTS TEST.

If he passes – he is the rightful possessor . If he fails, he is a false pretender.
Failing – according to RAMBAM [and RAMBAN too], constitutes of the claimant’s demise without the expected results.

So here the point comes. If a person failing the test [because of his results-less demise], is accorded a second chance to produce results, then per force there is no test whatsoever. He can ALWAYS claim a second coming during which he produces the results …..

Thus by sheer logic , there CANNOT be a second chance nor a second coming.

But in the case of Daniel, or anyone else similar to him , who never laid any claims , never failed any test. So why should someone like him be disqualified ? Provided of course that the RBSH’O is willing to revive him first , that is.

Am happy to hear any question on the above.

@ARSo
You write that someone who argues on rishonim and meforshim about pshat in gmara is apikorsus.
Not necessarily so. But I will grant you that it is foolish to do so.
About your other comments – od hazon lamo’ed.

@ARSo
a] As far as I remember RASHI says ‘kegon’ Daniel. Not that Daniel is the only possibility if its min hameitim . There are other possibilities.
So j would NOT be excluded according to that pshat of RASHI.

b] I am not ‘concerned’ about RAMBAN excluding j [because of his death], because he is contradicting RASHI. He contradicts RASHI many times.

I am rather, ‘very concerned’ why RAMBAN sees fit to present to vulnerable Jews AND powerful gentiles alike, a proof , which is so easily refutable.
Refutable with DEVASTATING CONSEQUENCES.

Its refutable by the gmara , even without RASHI, as you correctly noted. The gmara could be telling us that a dead mashiach is not automatically disqualified.
And that puts into doubt the whole premise of RAMBAN, the foundation of the yahadut upon which he exhorts all yehudim to build their emuna.
And even more so, since RASHI possibly interprets the gmara that way.

c] Re having it back to front.
Not at all , this is very simple. The mashiach job is a very appealing job.
Admittedly not to everyone, but certain types of individuals would be VERY attracted to it.
As history amply bears witness.

RASHBA and RAMBAM and the rabbanim after tach vetat, for example, could tell you a thing or two about this . They all had to counter false messiah claims in their generations.

How can we know the difference ? The difference between the real and the plastic . The difference between the authentic and the forged ?

It’s obvious that RAMBAM is concerned about separating the chaff from the wheat : how will we know how to differentiate ?
Only as RAMBAM rightly points out [hilch melachim] : RESULTS.

The plastic and the forged will not be able to produce verifiable results.
Whereas the true one, will.

Now , let’s ask you . If the plastic and the forged one [or his followers for that matter] are able claim that a so called second coming will clear up all the left over mess, then we are back to square one.
Any failed , forged or plastic one , will say – I am still the right one . Just wait until I reappear.
.
Think about this.

@ARSo
a] There is no reason at all to believe RAMBAN should not have had RASHI . He Quotes RASHI countless times, al hatorah and on shas. I imagine it reaches into the hundreds if not more. Btw, RAMBAN lived 200 years after RASHI.

b]I don’t understand what you mean by the disputant ‘believing’ in RASHI.
He [or better- they] for sure did not believe in RASHI.

They believed in only one thing, victory.
They [meaning a massive apparatus consisting of catholic clergy, the superstitious commoners filled with hate and envy against their Jewish neighbors, and the state machinery combined] all wanted VICTORY and get rid of this thorn in their side.
They wanted mass conversion of the Jews or alternatively their forced exile.
Victory at all costs.

They even aimed to prove j’s messiahship FROM THE TALMUDS OWN WRITING .

If RAMBAN would disprove j’s messiahship, they would give anything to be able to refute RAMBAN’s words from the Talmud itself .
Now, think for a second, there is a clear gemara contradicting RAMBAN , which seems [to at least possibly] say that mashiach could be from the dead.
Isn’t that gmara a virtual g-dsend to RAMBAN’s opponents ?

And didn’t RAMBAN think about that gmara ?
Why would RAMBAN advance a proof , so easily and obviously refutable from a gmara ?

Answer is very clear : RAMBAN knew that his line of reasoning is not against that gmara.

Why not ???

c] Am amazed ARSo could even claim that the rebbi of the habad hasidim did not start the process.
Did he not accept and encourage petitions from his followers that he is mashiach ? For sure he did.
Wasn’t that the prophecy that he prophesied [like a full fledged navi, that mashiach is here – meaning himself ?
Mashiach self proclaiming his messiahship and telling all yehudim mashiach is here to take you out of galut.
If this is not a claim as a mashiach wannabe , then what is ?

Kavod for resha’im should be avoided.
But the methodology employed by these resha’im [and non reshaim] should be carefully studied and if successful in saving lives and property, should be emulated. Like a non frum doctor who happens to excel in his field, patients should be referred to him.
With no need to give him undue kavod.
Same with other military pikuach Nefesh dilemma’s.

@ARSo
j started the process by claiming to his followers that he is the messiah, they got it from him.
According to his followers’ claims, at least.
It is them who claim that he was the messiah.
And it is them who claim that they got this idea that he was the messiah from j himself.
They do not claim to have dreamed it up.
They claim that that they are acting according to his instructions and guidance.
And it is them who RAMBAN debated.
Whether their claims could be valid or are per force invalid.
Where RAMBAN stated in the absolute negative , because of lack of realization of the nevu’ot in j’s lifetime .
Stated publicly in a major high stakes debate in front of the absolute ruler of his country, in the presence of the Jews’ most implacable enemies.
And disseminated far and wide with the express intention that Jews all over should base their belief on this rock-solid argument and withstand the enormous pressures they were facing.
Which obviously could not be ‘open to further discussion’.
Possible discussion being- maybe gmara sanhedrin does lend its support for j’s possible candidacy.
[obviously not taking j ‘s personality into consideration]
This was clearly unthinkable.
Why ?

@ARSo
1] We cannot fully appreciate what it means to live under a medieval absolute monarchy. With a medieval populace.
We also cannot fully grasp the ahrayut of being at the helm of a vulnerable Jewish population, not only vulnerable in physical manner at the whim of the above, but also vulnerable in a spiritual sense where huge chunks of this population were torn of it, converting to the overwhelmingly dominant religion of Xtianity .

It was under these circumstances that RAMBAN struggled to provide physical protection to his flock [losing a high profile disputation like this one , could result in exile deportation or worse] and spiritual protection for them , as they were constantly bombarded by zealous preachers whose threats, blandishments and bribes they were forced to listen to.

It goes without saying that RAMBAN fully realized the ultimate stakes of this debate and the impact it would have. And prepared accordingly.
This wasn’t just a flippant conversation over coffee and cake.
He for sure took into account any possible rejoinder from his opponent[s] and its possible repercussions.

Nevertheless he stated , and publicly disseminated written records thereof , that a mashiach who died or disappeared without fulfilling the nevu’ot is unequivocally a mashiach sheker , exhorting all of Spanish Jewry TO BASE THEIR BELIEF on this.
Did he not expect or anticipate a challenge [by believing Jews or lehavdil learned apostates] from sanhedrin about Daniel , according to one pshat in Rashi ? What would he say if he would be challenged ?

Saying : “I disagree with Rashi ? BASE YOUR BELIEF on my interpretation”, if there exist valid alternatives ?
The fanatical debating clergy would seize this like a hungry wolf would a fresh carcass.
All this per force went through his mind. And he nevertheless stated that a mashiach who died or disappeared without fulfilling the nevu’ot is unequivocally a mashiach sheker , exhorting all of Spanish Jewry TO BASE THEIR BELIEF on this.

It is obvious , therefore, that RAMBAN considered the gmara of sanhedrin as a non challenge.
For the simple and logical reason I mentioned – Daniel never laid claim to Messiahship and did not start it. Therefore he did not fail and is unsullied .
As opposed to j who clearly started and claimed messiahship and failed .
This distinction is so ironclad and obvious that RAMBAN was prepared to BASE Spanish Jewry’s TOTAL BELIEF on it.

2] Re Ramban arguing on RASHI whenever he disagreed with him. I am unable give an ultimate absolute positive answer. But , go through his peirushim al shas and al hatorah , on halacha AND ON AGADETA , there are countless places where he argues and raises objections with RASHI explanations.

Why would he stay silent on this one ? A quite important one, if you ask me.
Again , this is not an argument for example, about makat dever whether Egyptian animals in their houses were subject to the maka or not ? Which happens to be an argument between RAMBAN and RASHI.
Remember ,we are talking here about something which people have to use as yesodot for their ikarei emuna.

RAMBAN is not arguing with RASHI on this. There is no reason to assume so, aderaba , there is ample reason to take on the other way, as mentioned.

@ARSo
Re RAMBAN agreeing to RASHI whether Daniel could be mashiach.

1] I cannot imagine RAMBAN giving a public answer in front of the King and afterwards sending written accounts all over Spain , all the while knowing that RASHI , the foremost mefaresh on the gmara , is disagreeing with his pshat. If RAMBAN uses that as proof klapei huts and klapei pnim [for his coreligionists who were under constant pressures to convert] , It must have been in RAMBAN’s own opinion ,totally ironclad.

Not something which someone could come tomorrow and say – hey, this is against an offene RASHI in sanhedrin.
Per force that he agrees with RASHI.

2] RAMBAN consistently brings , and argues with RASHI wherever he disagrees with his pshat , whether al hashas or al hatorah. If he would argue with RASHI in sanhedrin, why is he keeping quiet about it ?
Per force that he agrees with RASHI.

3] So , if RAMBAN agrees with RASHI that Daniel is a fitting candidate even though he was niftar already , then why is he disqualifying j on the grounds that he died ? The answer is simple. There is no problem in dying in of itself. There is a problem ,however, in dying WITHOUT realization of nevu’ot hanevi’im.

Why is that a problem ? Because we cannot have a situation of a free for all vacancy, where first come first served, the mashiach job is open for all wannabe’s who happen to lay claim to throne.
So, to lay a claim and start the mashiach process and FAIL by dying [dissappearing/hiding/going on permanent sick leave] without realization of the nevu’ot , is a reliable filter to keep out all plastic mashiachs.

Daniel, however, never started , never lay a claim to the throne, so why should he be any less qualified than a living person who would want to lay a claim and be equally subject to the reliable filter we mentioned before ?

So, there is ample reason to reject j ,according to all of RASHI’s explanations, on the sole grounds that he started and subsequently failed
Ditto with habads late leader .

There is no point whatsoever going into whether Yaakov Avinu died or disappeared. This is totally irrelevant here.
.