yankel berel

This seems like an established pattern

A] somejew posts something extreme and objectionable

B] other posters reply and disagree

C] somejew replies and calls them priests , fools , idolaters etc

D] the other posters respond in kind and somejew receives the same vitriol back in his own face

E] somejew gets offended and disappears

F] after a while , somejew gets over it and starts afresh

G] back to A again ….
.
.
Good to recognize a pattern …
.
.
.

@ujm

I did not check all countries in your list

but Syria ’11 was not the US at all …
.

@qwerty

the argument is not against the habad people who as you keep on saying , are wonderful people

not ‘crazy’ at all

the argument is about their newfangled baseless brainwash

to which they were subjected by their rebbi going back to the very first moment in 1950 when rayats was niftar

their rebbi himself was a wonderful person too

but the brainwash is plainly indigestible and totally foreign to our millennia old yahadut

the problem is that new generations are being raised , all spoon-fed with that very same drivel …
.
.
.

YYA

it seems we keep on agreeing …

but the rhetoric from satmar is not as you portray it

they seem to sincerely believe that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

and that it would ‘better’ to chv’sh lose all of the yehudim in EY , rather than have the IDF fight for their survival

I hear this from their rabanim , from their posters here and from their people on the street

it is that principle that I am questioning …

they base the resistance to the draft on that principle of theirs

whereas all the other haredim base their resistance to the draft

on the obvious danger to yahadut …

there is a huge difference between the two ….

dont forget — with the future demographic trends as they are

the non frum segment of jews all over the world will decline

conversely the frum will become an ever increasing part

with result that the voice of the frum will inevitably sound louder

on questions of outside support for the medina …

are we prepared that the governments around the world get the message from their jews that the medina should close shop ?

this is an issue which needs to be hashed out , in my opinion at least …

The Chareidim actually have ‘Efrat’, which is a Chareidi organization whose sole purpose is to save Chiloni babies… Think about that for a second. Chareidim, for themselves, don’t need the services of Efrat at all. But they pay for it and volunteer for it. Is there any comparable Chiloni organization that ONLY helps Chareidim? [Efrat has nothing to do with Kiruv and doesn’t in any way mix into the lives of these children when they grow. They do their עבודת קודש simply so that these Jewish babies should live.]

[yya]

—

extremely powerful argument
.

vayidom manages to contradict himself in the span of only 2 sentences

he needs the haredim

and also wants them to submit to a process which remakes their children into non haredim ….

hmmmm……
.
.

YYA

maybe I did not explain properly

my question was not on maharal

it was on the widely held belief that SR holds that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

how does that square with SH’A YD 157 ?
.
.
.

you claim that SR agrees that p/n is doche the shavu’ot ?

any discussion I had with satmar people on this topic , yielded the same result

p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

it does not sound that they all are mistaken in the shitah of the SR

just last week I asked a satmar aligned rav who used to give public shiurim on vayoel moshe

this very same question re p/n being docheh the shavu’ot according to sh’a

he said that SR held that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

when I asked about the pashtut of the shulhan aruch YD 157

he said that he does not know and has to be me’ayen
.
.
.
besides:

Its not just an ‘omission’ in the mechaber and rama

As far as I remember they state that in all other issurim the klal of yaavor veal yehareig applies

technically the shavu’ot [if indeed applicable lehalacha as SR holds in his sefer] are included in she’ar issurim

thats the pashtut

so we do have a statement that all issurim are nidcheh mipnei p/n , including the shavu’ot ….
.
.
.

What do you think ?

YYA

Hope it is clear to you that I am not a zionist , nor should the medina be considered a lechathila

the issues I raised , are totally separate and very clear :

1] is p/n an issue now ?

only a fool or a dishonest person would answer with a no

2] is the existence of the IDF versus its non existence, ameliorating p/n in the present situation ?

I cant see a way out here – picture both scenario’s and we end up with a choice between a bedieved versus a literal catastrophe chvsh

3] is p/n doche even the most machmir explanation of the shavu’ot — according the normal halacha formulation process ?

again I cant see a way out — in a normal reading of poskim and SH’A YD 157 it is clear that p/n is docheh the shavu’ot
.
.

so in cold and dry halachic decision it follows that the IDF is mandated to fight in protection of the people in EY

this halacha does not change because the tsidkut or rish’ut of the PM or the army brass or the SC

nor does it change because of the grandfathers of present tsionim were arsonists

nor does it change because the tsioni leadership nowadays are arsonists

p/n is p/n

rav michoel ber weissmandel zatsal organised his hatsala comittee in slovakia in conjunction with a prominent zionist lady called gisi fleishman

rav weismandel had plenty to say about the zionists , I can assure you

nevertheless he collaborated

with a zionist ….

because of p/n

so why is IDF’s hatsala activity , treif across the board ?

again , a haredi bachur has no place in the IDF

but that is a total separate issue

Where am I going wrong in my logic ?

.

@qwerty

there is no medresh that sechels rebbi is like moshe r

not in his wildest dreams
.

sechel

where is this medresh ?

@yya

you misunderstood my position

you go on and on about arsonists and firefighters

and about bibi thinking of yeshuat hashem

and none of this is relevant at all to the issue I raise

which is the refusal in principle of taking pikuach nefesh into account in the halachik decision making process

and the danger of talk about closing shop

bibi is extremely far from a tsadiq and the IDF even worse and has veshalom that the haredi boys should be drafted

and the medina should not be glorified

totally agree to all of that

the issue was whether the mehaber and rama in YD clearly mandate to include p/n considerations into our calculations

and whether in other halachik areas we also use similar processes to arrive at conclusions

all the rest is hot air , not relevant to the issue raised

.
.

@somejew

chazon ish was not a typo

it was proofread
—

not misunderstood

he says what he thinks and he means what he says

just like all his other writings
—

needing context ….

what is that meant to mean ??
——————————————-

in other words somejew claims chazon ish is …. wrong

this is the character of somejew … to keep in our mind … when we read all his other shenanigans
.
.
.

not needing context

YYA

so why does shulhan aruch , rama or any of nosei keilim not mention that for the shavu’ot one must sacrifice one’s life ?

Am not asking on maharal himself who is not bound by shulhan aruch

am asking on those who claim that shavu’ot is yehareig veal yaavor halacha lemaaseh …

and are therefore disregarding pikuach nefesh in practice ….

why does shulhan aruch not mention this as one of the averot one is obligated

to give your life for ?
.

.
is there another area in halacha where halacha pesuka is arrived at in such a similar manner

relying on a maharal who wrote on agada

seemingly contradicted by all poskim including shulhan aruch and nosei keilim

or is that only done in this particular sugyia ?

and on top of that in the sugya of hamura shebachamurot — pikuach nefesh ….

and not only pikuach nefesh … but mass pikuach nefesh ….

.

you write that this is part of behukotai and therefore kfira and therefore included in the prohibition of saying i am not a jew ….

that is meant to explain the negation of pikuach nefesh considerations in whether to keep the IDF intact …

I cannot see why a Jew who openly proclaims he is a Jew and proclaims fealty to each and every word of the torah , including behukotai

and to the shavu’ot and only supports pikuach nefesh considerations …

why should such a person be considered like someone proclaiming his not a jew ….

why should such a person be considered like someone who does not accept the torah ….

he says it clearly … he accepts … he says clearly that it is only because of pikuach nefesh which is docheh all issurim that he is over on the shavu’ot …

is that the pashtut of the mechaber and rama to include such a person within the klal of someone denying his jewishness ???
.
.

YYA:

We also had an army on October 7, which didn’t prevent the biggest bloodbath of Jews AFTER the Holocaust either…

—-

I take issue with that oft repeated statement by many people

I find this statement to be utterly baseless

WRT to the korbanot who died , this is correct

but WRT to the millions saved , this is incorrect

imagine the attack of 7 october … WITH NO IDF at all …. who would stop those barbarians al pi derech hateva ???

what number lo aleinu would you realistically put on the korbanot in such a case ?

who exactly would stand in their way ???

lemaaseh — it was the IDF who bsd stopped them

this is the fact of the matter

so the IDF failed [begzerat elyon] in protecting one thousand people but succeeded [bsd] to protect millions …

in a rough estimation this is about one in ten thousand – meaning for every 99.999 of people who were protected – one was not

you are right to consider this a failure because we do have super high standards — even one person is an olam maleih

but when you compare the existence of the IDF versus its non existence …

the difference is simply staggering
————————–

the second bone I have to pick with you is the comparison of the necessity of moving one’s bowels with the necessity of the IDF

chevrat hatsala … is that also similar to moving one’s bowels ? ….. both are ‘necessary’ …..

why is the hatsala part of the IDF not similar to ….. hatsala

both are mitsvot … or not ?

the only point which I would grant you … is that the IDF is not only engaged with hatsala actions whereas the chevrat hatsala is

You are correct the IDF is engaging in many averot too

which should not be whitewashed

but the hatsala part is still a mitsva — no less than the activities of chevrat hatsala

as much similar to moving the bowels as the chevrat hatsala’s activities are ….

somejew claims that somejew is ‘sincere’ …

hitler and the nazi’s —- somejews favorite nickname —-

were ‘sincere’ too ….

they ‘sincerely’ worked for the destruction of the jews

my dear somejew — ‘sincerity’ is not enough ……

we need some HUMILITY too

humility in realizing that other jewish sages have more and better understanding of the torah

humility in accepting their understanding and gaining the flexibility of changing your own thinking as a result

humility …. humility …. humility …..
.
.

yes r somejew

klal yisrael with its rabbanim and tsadiqim are not zuken mamre’s

and if you find yourself at odds with them

that is a sign that you are one who is in danger of turning into a zuken mamre …

not them ….
.
.

.

What’s the issue that the rebbe is greater than moshe rabeinu?
It’s a clear medrash אין דור שאין בו כמשה
So the rebbe is equal and what is the big difference between equal and a bit greater????
[sechel]

—

typical habad logic without any sechel

in no jewish community in the last 3000 years was their rebbi , rav , rosh yeshiva , haham or leader crowned as ‘greater than moshe rabbenou’

not in the ashkanazi mesora , not in the sfarardi mesora

not in the mitnagdic mesora , not in the hasidic mesora

not in the habad mesora , not in the other hasiduyot mesora

not the baal hatanya , not the tsemach tsedeq

not in the liadi dynasty , not in the niyezin dynasty

not in the kapust dynasty , not in the temimim yeshivot under the rashab

this happened 2000 years ago when lehavdil a jewish man falsely claimed he was conceived without an earthly father

this is totally new and

part of the false brainwash of deification

where logic , facts and mesora don’t count anymore

and ample proof to this brainwash is shown by sechels mindless rubbish posted as a pathetic excuse for the indefensible
.
.
.

@YYA

the answer you gave from vayoel moshe only covers the gemara which limits the yehareig veal yaavor to the 3 hamurot

where seemingly SR classifies the shavu’ot under avoda zara

this still needs much thought , but that is for a different occasion

but that was not my query

my question was specifically to shulchan aruch YD 157

where shulchan aruch does not mention the shavu’ot as an avera where there is an obligation to be moser nefesh

nor does rama

nor do any of the nos’ei keilim say so

you did not address that

.

that was the question

YYA

you learned vayoel moshe and al hageulah

maybe you can help

SR quotes maharal that 3 shavu’ot are applicable even if faced with pikuach nefesh

how does that jibe with SH’A YD 157 that only 3 hamurot are yehareig ve al yaavor ??

.
.

@somejew

you wrote that chazon ish is wrong or mistaken

you also wrote that r chaim shmulevits could be a zuken mamre for going against [your understanding of] the torah

when he says that fallen soldiers are equivalent to harugei lud

which according to your understanding is against the torah .
.

so chazon ish , for disagreeing with somejew and being mistaken ….

should , using somejew’s reasoning , earn a zuken mamre card from somejew ….

.
.

YYA

sefer hasidim says that someone who dies while doing a mitsva is a kadosh

for sure if he is killed because he was doing a mitsva

@damoshe

r shlomo zalman is also quoted as bitterly condemning the zionists in the forties as having innocent yiddish blit on their hands

the quote re the cemeteries you mentioned , even if true , should still be balanced with the quote mentioned above

.

the cat is out of the bag

somejew has stated that his opinion re tinok shenishbah is right and chazon ish is wrong

and most importantly that he understands halacha better than the chazon ish

and therefore somejew is handing out ‘zuken mamreh’ cards

for disagreeing with somejews understanding

it seems that chazon ish is also a candidate for one of somejew’s “zuken mamre cards” ???

no wonder that somejew ‘s klal yisrael consists of very few members ….
.
.

@shimon

what was the kushyia on rav friedman , remind me please ?
.

@haleivi

your post re gorens proper appellation is incomprehensible to me

the most chashuv rabbanim sign publicly that his proper appellation is without the title rav

and haleivi bichvodo uveatsmo disagrees ….

haleivi deems himself as more qualified than them to decide who is or isn’t worthy of the title rav ???

.
.

YYA

The British also had no right to speak on behalf of the Arabs, something the Arabs still resent down to today ..

—

And the arabs do have a right to speak ‘on behalf of’ the arabs ?

what exactly are the criteria for the right to speak ‘on behalf’ ?

would ottoman turkey satisfy the criteria for speaking ‘on behalf’ ?

would the roman empire satisfy the criteria of haskama shel ha’umot ?

positing that haskamat ha’umot is a matir [as per your reasoning]

is kibush milhamah a kinyan al pi torah ?

cf avnei nezer where he posits that pre revolutionary russia is the private domain of the tsar al pi torah

so why is palestine not the possession of the british empire, al pi torah ?

.
.
rav zevin is on record saying that the 1947 un vote constitutes haskamat ha umot

was it ‘theirs’ to be maskim ?

maybe . it was a mandate , after all .

not clear …
.
.