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@aaq
even when hungary was ‘independent’ pre – march 1944 , there was huge institutional government sanctioned antisemitism against jews with hungarian citizenship
they were allied to hitler , fought on his behalf in russia and did who knows what, to the local jews there
they deported masses of jews to the germans in poland ukraine and czechoslovakia only to be brutally murdered there
granted – it was ‘better’ than after march 1944 ….
or rather — after march 1944 it became much worse …
thats way more accurate ….
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.@aaq
… Poland was at actual war for 6 years, occupied form the beginning by Germany and USSR. How Poles behaved varied …
[aaq]—
poland was terrible for jews , overall
even after the war , were there pogroms against the jews all over poland with many jewish fatalities hy’d
compare with denmark , also under german occupation for similar time …. over 90 % of jews survived
in poland …. over 90 % of jews were murdered …
testimonies from survivors abound about the general attitude re the jews within poland during the war
diaries written as events were taking place, give an accurate idea of whats was going on at the time …
diaries tell of hasidie umot haolam who risked their lives rescuing jews , begging them to keep their heroic deeds secret even after the war
lest they suffer adverse consequences if their jew loving activities become public …
a damning indictment of the general mood of society …
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.even the people who ‘like’ habad do not support their falsifications of yahadut
everyone agrees on this point
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Rightjew should go a midbar and proclaim his terrible advice to all interested parties and leave us alone …
why is a yeshiva news site publicizing such drivel ?
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.your response only proves my point …
.@square
the secular are the ones who belong amongst the non jews
after all they are the ones who keep on copying them …
.hitler sincerely believed he was following common sense
he was not lying
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so did millions of his followers and admirers
read up about them …
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so did the soviets and the communists in china under mao.
so did the ancients in sparta
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.ujm is not at all achieving his objective by using the N slur
instead of lowering the reputation of the israeli police to the level of the nazi’s ….
he is succeeding in one thing only — elevating the nazi’s reputation to the level of the israeli police , which admittedly happens to be a very low level ….
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.lol.
according to somejew , his debaters are
A] fools
B] priests
C] reshaim
D] ignoramuseswhat does that say about somejew …..
about his humility …..
about his midot …..
Besides the point … legufo shel inyan … od chazon lamo’ed ….
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.“Anyone” is falling into the trap of classic habad propaganda
which focuses on the good habad does and thereby covering for the radical theological changes from milenia old yahadut
no one disputes the good habad does , the issue is the changes habad introduced
if ‘anyone’ wants to defend habad , he should explain those changes .
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very simple question
what would the nazi answer when questioned about his beliefs ?
would he claim to follow common sense , or not ?
could he be sincere about it ?
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ujm is again invoking the N slur
objectively , there is no comparison at all between what the nazi’s did to what the israeli police does
as much as the israeli police are to be condemned
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@shalom al israel
all this serves as a timely reminder that the yehudim in EY are in galut in their own land between their own brothers
very far from any athalta degeoula ….
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.quotes from dershowits are not holy at all
but when he talks sense we should listen
in this instance he talks perfectly sense
there is no use in putting our heads in the sand
that’s outright dangerous , and besides …. reality will not change by one iota
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.Seems that in somejew’s tanach it says “veameich kulam reshaim” instead of “veameich kulam tsadikim” …..
it seems that somejew has a different torah , different to the torah of klal yisrael ledoroteihem …
in somejew’s torah there seems no place for elu ve’elu …
in somejew’s torah , facts and logic don’t seem to matter
in somejew’s torah , there is no openness to arrive at a conclusion kedarka shel tora
in somejew’s torah every maskana is predetermined to be subservient to a rigid and narrow ideological straightjacket
no wonder that somejew ends up being megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha and in the process being mevazah gdolei olam ….
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humility …..
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.am not being stupid ,
dont have a sword , so cannot put it down , sorry
you still did not answer my question
what you define as ‘common sense’ is to a large extent derived from your surroundings
you view it as an objective criteria , used to judge whats right whats wrong
you dont realize that it really is a subjective yardstick , a reflection of your surrounding , their and your biases
there is no person and no society without biases
hence the very different ‘common senses’ in vogue in different societies
so the question is alive and kicking – how do you know which ‘common sense’ is the correct one ??
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maharl diskin says that those who are dan lekaf chov are not harming the people they are dan
they harm themselves ….
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.anon1m0us ‘ s post to UJM is plainly despicable and has no place on a yeshiva news site …
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.Why did rescue not answer the question ?
Is it because he has none ?
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.Have not forgotten about you …
How could I …
You are the only one from whom I get such terrific compliments …
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.Lol.
somejew is in a good mood lately …
somejew , whenever he is struggling with reading comprehension … gets in to good moods and dispenses compliments in a real royal fashion …
kdushat levi said that crooked logic should be employed in order to be melamed zhut on yehudim …
for sure , if straight logic is available , straight logic is preferable …
but when according to straight logic there is no limud zhut , then we should employ crooked logic …
and that , says the famous kdushat levi zhuto yagen aleinu , was the purpose of the creation of ‘crooked logic’ …
for example it is recounted that kdushat levi , when encountering a yehudi polishing his carriage in the middle of shmone esreh , lifted his eyes up to
heaven and said RBSH’O – look at your precious nation , even in the middle of polishing their carriages , they pray …
now — using this type of crooked logic to be melamed hov … runs according to kdushat levi , counter the purpose of ‘crooked logic’s creation
hope somejew understood it the second time around ….
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.yechiell lives in lala land.
he doesn’t have the foggiest idea what gestapo did , and what they stood for …
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yechiell is reminiscent of a fool ….and that is a much more accurate statement than yechiell’s …..
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.??
.koifer beikur
chose an appropriate nickname …
a mevaze talmid haham is similar to a koifer beikur …
another name he could have used is … mehutsaf ….
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.heard that the famous kdushat levi once remarked … why did God create crooked logic ? What is the point ?
whereupon he answered that crooked logic was created to be used for melamed zhut on the yehudim
think of that famous quote from this famous melamed zhut , whenever I hear crooked logic being used to be melamed chov ….
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.was referring to another heter — not apei tlata …
.interesting how members of the most ‘conforming’ sects run around in hospitals supporting the most ‘non conforming’ people imaginable ….
just one small example of the widespread other side of the coin you totally ignore ….
re your observation of the ‘rich’ wedding — it seems that you could do with some improvement of your ‘ayin tova’ ….
in yiddish its called farginnen …
in german … the original source of yiddish it does not exist , I am told ….
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.I seem to remember that there is no issur lashon hara on something which is anyway clear public knowledge
thats not referring to the ‘heter’ of apei tlata
might be wrong here …
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.from your responses I realized that I did not explain properly
does judaism oppose ‘conformity’ in itself ? absolutely not
does judaism impose ‘conformity’ in of itself ? absolutely not
judaism demands nothing less nor more than … judaism
now … if judaism is enhanced by ‘conformity’ , than judaism would be advocating for it , in that particular circumstance
…. if judaism is hampered by ‘conformity’ , than judaism would be advocating against it , in that particular circumstance
imagine an orthodox jew in the late soviet union — judaism would stress he should not ‘conform’ …. by every fiber of his being !
if everyone in shul talks in the middle of hazarat hashatz — again… judaism would stress he should not ‘conform’ …. by every fiber of his being !
it is extremely simplistic to say that judaism demands conformity … and extremely wrong too …
I would venture to say that the entire essence of judaism is “non-conformity” , meaning … not conforming with the outside world …
it is correct to note that in many subgroups within judaism there is a high level of conformity …
but does judaism perse demand that ? … I have not found any source within judaism demanding this …
I would suggest the members of the conformist groups are conforming … as a way of coping with being “the non conformist” vis a vis the outside world
besides this …
there is tremendous creativity within judaism …
walk in to any serious, self respecting bet midrash … and only look at the walls … you are literally surrounded by untold levels of creativity ….
you call that ‘stifling’ ????
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@somejew
A] disagree with all of your answers but will look at SH’A 157 again.
B] your answer is not addressing the question —
the question is re the immediate p/n resulting from inaction of the IDF [!] …. not about the situation WITH IDF’s ACTIONyou attempt to prove the lack of p/n in EY from the fact that no people run away in the present … you totally ignore the fallacy of this proof …
the reason they do not run away is a result of the IDF’s activities … the question was re p/n WHEN THE IDF is INACTIVE …
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you are straw manning my words — I never advocated for mass aliah to EY … I advocate for an honest open minded FACT BASED normative halachik analysis of the situation
without being pre-obligated and biased to zionist ideology , nor to antizionist ideology
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firstly – this entire discussion IS ABOUT the potential dismantlement of the medina and the IDF
secondly – there IS NO SERIOUS ATTEMPT AT ALL on your behalf to provide exact details of a replacement government
thirdly – you totally ignore the plain fact that ‘evil parties’ are right now , as we debate , threatening lives …..
and you totally ignore the main issue … not whether there SHOULD be the option to leave ….
rather the main issue is whether there WILL BE the option to leave ….
what SHOULD BE is totally irrelevant ….
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so -the question again :
What is your reasonable practical plan how ‘running away’ is going to preclude the p/n resulting from the IDF being inactive ….you are talking about millions ‘running away’ … all ages ….sucklings and grandmothers …. healthy people and sick people ….
…. wheelchairs and stretchers … double buggies and pregnant mothers ….What is your reasonable practical plan where this ‘running away’ is going towards … towards which country ….
you have not furnished any reasonable practical details …What is your reasonable practical timetable re how long this ‘running away’ of millions is going to take …
and what reasonable and practical safeguards do you have for the safety of those millions while the ‘running away’ is going on …..
C] you seem to pretend to make a uturn now , while plausibly still secretly maintaining that rav chaim is a zuken mamre
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D] I still maintain that in the past these were your claims . But you are not obligated to maintain them in the present .
so — for the present : can you clarify your position ?
Given that hatsala responds with hilul shabat to address even avoidable and previously self created emergencies …. do you agree that jews should respond with hilul shevu’a to address avoidable and previously self created emergencies ?
I have no more time now — but will bln continue
somejew represents only a fringe of judaism
and therefore misrepresentations of judaism could – and do – appear in somejews posts from time to time
—
will amend somejews post to reflect real judaism
here we go :
Judaism is neutral about
conformity
loss of individuality
suppressing personal identity, creativity, and perspectives
fitting in
avoiding challenging the status quo
avoiding new ideas
stifling ‘improvements’
inability to adapt to change
shutting down dissent
echo chambers
—
neutral —
meaning that those attitudes could be used for the good and for the bad , like most objects in this worldfire is an extreme example
it could be extremely dangerous and conversely extremely beneficial
it all depends on the circumstances and the result of its use
same here
it all depends on the circumstances , the results of , and the intention of those employing those attitudes
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.wow
thanks to ujm …
interesting …
you calling honorable people … priests , fools , nonsense , confused , malformed , lack of coherent thought , failure … apparently is not ad hominem …
but legit questions about your own musings are ad hominem …..
so much for fairness and honesty …
====
A] the pashtut in YD 157 is that barring shaat hashmad there are only 3 averot which are yehareig veal yaavor , all others p/n is doche them
meaning that p/n is doche the shavu’ot as they are not one of the three
you have not yet furnished an answer in any of your posts …
B] You claimed that the current situation in EY without an active IDF is not p/n , because the people can run away …
you have not brought any reasonable practical plan how ‘running away’ is going to preclude the p/n resulting from the IDF being inactive ….
C] Sure you insinuated that rav chaim is a zuken mamre – rav chaim clearly said in public that fallen IDF soldiers are begeder harugei lud
this appellation – zuken mamre – , was used by you so as to not accept rav chaims statement …
D] you repeatedly claim that we should ignore p/n issues in EY because everything and anything wrong in the entire middle east is the exclusive fault of the zionists … if only they would have not ‘invaded’ [using your crooked language] there would be no p/n ….
therefore we somehow should ignore this supposedly zionist manufactured p/n …
even if the facts and your portrayal do align … even then …. you have not at all explained why this is relevant to the way we are obligated to respond …
does hatsala not respond with hilul shabat to address avoidable emergencies ?
does hatsala not respond with hilul shabat to address self created emergencies ?
you simply keep on skirting the real issues ….
E] No , you did not admit to the clear words of avnei nezer
you did not admit that someone transgressing the oaths did not transgress a halacha
F] Steipler clearly limits the halachik illegality of the medina to its ESTABLISHMENT .
this is in the letter re the obligation to vote
you have never admitted to this , although this is the clear meaning of his words
=======
if you know the meaning of the word ’emet’ , you will acknowledge itand if you do not , you will not acknowledge …
your reaction to this
will be the ultimate proof as to whether you argue in good faith ….
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AAQ:
I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leavesomejew :
many jews get arrested while trying to leaveAAQ :
people who knew they will be obligated to serve in the army, chose to stay in the country, and then got arrested for violating army orders. These people had time to leave before they were called up. They did not care.
I am not sure what yeshiva is responsible for your education. You seem to be totally oblivious to the idea of emes in a discussion.
..
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bottom line
the rabenu nissim states that every jew has a right to live in EY and
no secularist and no medina and no AAQ and no somejew can take that right away from him
no one can tell him to go away and live in judenrein and dangerous places
no bet din anywhere on the globe will uphold such a claim
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.This seems like an established pattern
A] somejew posts something extreme and objectionable
B] other posters reply and disagree
C] somejew replies and calls them priests , fools , idolaters etc
D] the other posters respond in kind and somejew receives the same vitriol back in his own face
E] somejew gets offended and disappears
F] after a while , somejew gets over it and starts afresh
G] back to A again ….
====
the only way somejew is able to disprove the above post
is by supplying a point by point, fact and logic based answer , to each and every question
without running away ….
what somejew was doing till now , was plain …. running away …
it s high time somejew is accountable for the shenanigans he is posting
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.you did not answer the question about common sense …
common sense in Sparta and in Nazi Germany and in Soviet Russia and in feudal Europe and in common era USA are totally different things
nevertheless all of them figured at the time as ‘common sense’ followed by millions ….
humans in all these places found their own guiding principles to be exactly ….
what your words define : ‘ self understood principles that all human beings understand and that is self evident or self understood
but obviously they do contradict each other
so the question returns – how are you to know which common sense is correct ?
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.we can respect others and still disagree with them and not be ‘superior’ as you put it
only God knows who is ‘superior’ . this not for us , this is hidden from us
but that does not mean everyone’s opinion is equal
there are opinions which are clearly ‘superior’ over other opinions
people keep on mixing those two issues
you are correct about people not being ‘superior’
but you are not correct about opinions not being superior
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.Why cant i see the comments ?
YYA
How could participating in the behirot of the medina be yehareig veal yaavor when the actions of the IDF itself are not
something does not add up in your portrayal of the shitah of the SR
in any case , my post was not addressing the SR perse
I am referring to what every satmar, from poster on yeshivaworld , to the pashute man in the street to the dayan who gave shiurim on vayoel moshe
say : that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot
I would be willing to yield to you re the shitah of SR personally that he held that p/n is docheh the shavu’ot
but then my question from the start of this post comes back
and secondly — how come all satmar hasidim themselves say not like you ???
where did they get it from ?
all signs seem to point that SR himself held that p/n is not doche the shavu’ot
where am I going wrong in my logic ?
why cant I see the posts ?
you are misconstruing my argument here , with apologies
I am not arguing against the reputation of SR chvsh
which you seem obligated to defend
the reputation of SR as a kdosh elyon and a huge talmid haham who sacrificed himself for klal yisrael is well established and undisputed
that is not the issue
the point is re the underlying principle under which many people operate their thinking and their approach
with potentially enormous consequences – and that is still an understatement …
that pikuach nefesh is not a factor to be halachically counted whenever dealing with any question re the medina
that is THE point here .
this negation of pikuach nefesh is totally baseless in halacha,
and in addition, this is without equal in any other area in halacha , where so much care is given to base one’s psak
on reality , on logic , on rigorous proof from chazal , from rishonim, from our great halacha codifiers , from poskim ,
with letters of inquiry between gdolei hador , bekoved rosh …
whereas in this case all these rigorous procedures are somehow summarily tossed out of the window ….
besides the curses and unearned offensive slurs you routinely throw at most of your opponents
you also are not arguing in good faith
you have never proved that your approach fits with sh’a YD 157
you have never proved that your wonderful, ‘running away’ from EY idea , is going to solve all p/n problems
you have never owned up to the fact that you insinuated that rav chaim was a zuken mamre chvsh
you have never owned up to point that halacha everywhere is not decided by what would , could or should have been — only by what is …
you have never owned up to the fact that avnei nezer clearly says that the shavu’ot are … ‘not lehalacha’ [his language]
you have never owned up to the fact that the steipler clearly writes that the mere existence of the medina is not against the shavu’ot
you have never owned up to the fact that avnei nezer clearly writes that haskamat ha’umot will negate the shavu’ot
you have never owned up to the fact that you do not argue in good faith ….
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/
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.Mods – cannot see the comments …
yankel > I want to live in EY free from secular coercion
> and that is my definite right
[YB]This is such a modern, assimilated statements. Maybe we should call it CZ – charedi zionism. Jews lived under all kind of governments both in EY and in golus. We know how to react to them. This “rights” is a very modern position.
[aaq]every jew has the inherent right to live in EY
that is certainly not a Torah given “right”, so who is declaring such a “right” for all Jews?
We Jews are in gulis, which literally meant that we lost any collective G-d given “right” to live in EY.
Who gives you the “right” to not be coerced by secularist? Are you free to demand that you have no nisyonos?
[somejew]
————–
@AAQ:
@somejew
this is not modern nor assimilated … this is a famous quote from rabenu nissim in nedarim if not mistaken 28A that there is no dina demalchuta in EY because of every jew’s inherent right to live there … gulis or not ….
@somejew:
the torah does not recognize the ‘right’ of any secularist to force a religious jew to transgress even the slightest avera
this secularist can rant as much as he wants about nisyonot … and about fools ….
do not think it’s going to help him one iota ….
I do not know any bet din anywhere who will uphold such a claim
maybe you do ?
please forward their address …I do not know your background …
but have a question for you
you advocate for ‘common sense’ as opposed to rules
some 85 years ago in Central Europe ‘common sense’ was something very different to what it is now
how are you to know which ‘common sense’ is the right one ?
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.rescue , please
I totally disagree
one of the basics is that the RBSHO is the only true judge who knows who is ‘better’ than someone else
I reject your premise from start to finish
———-‘the rules of the book is not for us to separate above others’
I accept your premise from start to finish
———-re what comes first humanity or ideology …
have news for you — humanity is an essential part of ideology
they both come together
hello
@qwerty
the vilna goan argued with rishonim , thats truebut that has no bearing at all on habads shenanigans