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flamingOTD should use these threads not to attempt to convince others of her dangerous and unrealistic feel good illusions
but rather to listen and be ready to acknowledge reality as it really is …
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@AAQ
you are missing the point
first of all I quoted the rav mibrisk as an example of a realistic nuanced position of the kanna’i camp – unlike the lala statements of ujm , katan and somejew …
This position is one of many different valid positions
re the possible establishment of a medina
In this statement attributed by rav shternbuch to the rav , , there are no reasons given for the issur of establishing the medina
it could be the shavu’ot as you infer
– it could be the inevitable loss of innocent life ,
it could be the secular nature of the new government leading many astray
the main point he was making is – that one cannot trade
trade – meaning gaining one thing for the benefit of another
that was not the reason I quoted him btw
I only quoted him to show an example of reality based kanna’im ….
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.katan :
… Anything from the Satmar Rav who writes extensively on this with no dissenting opinions this? Like, for example, how the geulah will be by Hashem, not by basar vaDam ….————————————-
rambam hilchot mlachim clearly infers that the ge’ula will come through the actions of a basar vadam
who was sent by HKBH …..
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.not sure whether he learnt from hitler per se
but it does seem he learnt from all sorts of fascist and communist leaders who governed during his formative years
who succeeded in brainwashing millions …
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.lakewhut is missing the point …
yeshiva world does appreciate chabad’s moser nefesh …
but does not appreciate chabad using that mesirut nefesh as leverage to convert unsuspecting innocents
into accepting corrupted false messianism
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.hypocritical ujm is projecting his own hypocrisy on his opponents … how convenient ….
lets face the facts …
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.I did never dismissed SR statements as ’emotional’ and therefore not authoritative…
katan , somejew and ujm do that to rav chaim shmulevits , however ….
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.my position is unchanging and clear
it is a machloket between the rabbanim …
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.it clearly is hypocritical to dismiss rav chaim as ’emotional’ , ‘poetic’ or ‘wrong’ and a second later accept SR emotional statements
as the only valid expression of torah misinai
this is hypocritical and remains hypocritical , no matter the attempted mental acrobatics to make it appear otherwise ….
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.lol.
rav chaim is delivering a serious lecture about the correct torah way in a formal setting to hundreds of serious torah scholars …
all other details of rav chaims teachings , compiled , printed and widely disseminated , and widely studied are to be taken seriously and listened to …
it happens to be that the passage , which incidentally happens not find favor in ujm’s eyes …..
also happens to be the only passage which was ‘poetic’ … and therefore not to be listened to …
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interesting coincidence …..
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.@AAQ
ok
at least we agree on the facts then , the only institutions he ever attended were universities ….
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.ujm:
Czarist Russia and the Weimar Republic also had millions of Yidden. If you head people referring to Czarist Russia or the Weimar Republic as the Fourth Reich, would you get as bent out of shape that someone wanted Czarist Russia or the Weimar Republic to be replaced by a better entity?
——————–1] weimar did not have millions of yidden
2] huge difference between weimar , russia on one hand and the medina on the other hand
those regimes – al pi derech hateva if replaced would not signify unceasing october 7 repeats has veshalom
as opposed to the medina — anyone with even one millimeter of reality in their bones , knows that al pi derech hateva the alternative to the medina is
unceasing repetitions of october 7 chvsh — if in any doubt, have a talk with a yazidi survivor and post their personal experiences ….
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.@square
have a look in penei yehoshua on the gemara in ketubot rightjew quoted
where PN’Y says that the kedusha of EY causes a person to repent – therefore are his sins forgiven
but – does penei yehoshua add – if he ignores the kedusha of EY and does not repent , then his sins are amplified
and much worse than if he would have stayed in chuts laarets …..
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.anywhere between 600000 and two and a half million German civilians died during the 1940’s as a result of the Allies war against Germany .
Is that genocide ? ? ?
for an established scholar of genocide like yourself , that should be an easy question to answer ….
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.have a look in penei yehoshua on the gemara in ketubot you quoted
where he says that the kedusha of EY causes a person to repent – therefore are his sins forgiven
but – does penei yehoshua add – if he ignores the kedusha of EY and does not repent , then his sins are amplified
and much worse than if he would have stayed in chuts laarets
so not really sure who is the one obligated to weep ….
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.@AAQ
Am not ‘paseling’ anyone in a black and white manner because they never attended any institution besides universities
am putting their later statements and policies into the context of their formative years
the formative years are a very important factor into shaping their ultimate personality
thats all .
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.on this issue I totally side with katan
as do do , rov minyan and rov binyan of orthodox jews on the planet
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.how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?
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flamingOTD is the exact embodiment of her own libel of others:
Deny
Attack
Reverse
Victim
OffenderRegarding the questions about a Jew in a Palestinian town and a Palestinian in a Jewish one, my comments totally reflect day to day reality for the last 77 years
Arabs frequent 99 % of Israeli towns without any fear ,
while Israeli’s fear for their lives in most Arab towns .
THIS IS THE REALITY
as long as you deny reality your words are totally worthless …
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.I fully support most of your writings – but have an objection to the language you used here
1] habad does not believe they are the ‘master race’ … they happily accept anyone foolish enough to join them – that is the opposite of a ‘master race’ …
2] and they are non judgmental to all people provided that they do not actively oppose their missionary messianism
– also not a hallmark of a ‘master race’ …
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.your defense of @Hakatan is absurd.
it’s not very difficult: we have a Torah to keep.
In that torah it clearly says to listen to the talmidei hahamim .
Like Rav Shmulevitz.
Listening to Rav Chaim includes — not falsely and absurdly claiming that rav chaim was ‘wrong or poetic’
Listening means exactly that – LISTENING .
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.No one (except you and katan) is hypocritical in accepting satmar rav’s ’emotional’ statements and in the same breath
reject rav chaims supposedly ’emotional’ statements ….
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@AAQ
it was prohibited for the founders of the medina to establish it ,
even tough that there were clear ‘gains’ as a result of its establishment
because one cannot do business with the torah
like yaakov’s exclamation that he would never have slept at this holy place of the bet hamikdash
had he known about its holiness
although that in case of not sleeping , he would have lost out on the magnificent revelation contained within the dream
its not worth the ‘gain’ of the revelation , if it involves an issur of sleeping in a holy place
same with the medina its not worth the ‘gain’ of the refugees if it involves the issur of establishing the medina
that statement was re the actions of the founders themselves.
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.somejew :
the chraedi Gedolim still unanimously protest the existence of the state in the same way their predecessors unanimously protest the existence of the Nazi regime in Europe.—
this statement by somejew is obviously ridiculous . even a ten year old would know that …
the following statement is the real correct statement :
the NK nutjobs including the vile somejew , still unanimously lie about the position of mainstream charedi gdolim about the existence of the state in exactly the same way the Nazi regime unanimously lied about the Jewish People in Europe.
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.Katan objects to listening to rav chaim shmelevits’ statements in a shiur to hundreds of talmidie hahamim who especially came to hear the torah viewpoint ….
because rav chaim was emotianal ….
katan does not know that rav chaim was emotional when he stated that … katan desperately wants to believe that ….
but even if we will take katan at face value , which we should not …
so what if rav chaim became emotional at the time ….
does katan not listen to satmar rav when SR is emotional …. ?
such an inflexible , blind , double standard and crooked approach ….
does at least katan himself believe that katan is fair , honest and reality based ?
hope so , because none of his readers are ….
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.– the status quo is a small pikuach nefesh ‘sakana’
the sakana of your suggestion is multiplied a thousand fold
one has to be blind not to see that
blinded by terribly contorted way of paskening like an aggadic maharal – against all codifiers of halacha
blinded by an ideological inflexibility of subservience to a so called shitah hakdosha
btw, the blind are not allowed to paskan any she’elot …
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.you are factually incorrect
they clearly did turn to the government
.even more – it seems that the first one to turn to the government were the hasidim
which in turn resulted in their opponents to do the same
which resulted in the baal hatanya famously imprisoned
the kahal seemed to belong to the mitnagdim
and was used to enforce the herem
which resulted in hasidim going to the government first …
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.again ujm is moving the goalposts
it was ujm who quoted eichman to besmirch kastner
so my following post stands :
ujm blindly trusts the testimony of a confirmed mass murderer ….
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anyway —the historical episode with kastner – either way
is totally irrelevant to ujm ‘s real objective …
the dismantlement of the blindly hated medina
leaving millions of innocents at the ‘mercy’ of somejews friends , chas veshalom ….
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.many gdolim yearned for EY
but none held of evalemoshiv’s rant
that in itself proves evalemoshiv wrong …
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.flamingOTD:
… You know most Palestinian supporters say the media favors Israel. I think stats back that up. According to the dataset, New York Times uses “Israel” in headlines over “Palestine” at a ratio of 187 to 1 …—
that makes perfectly sense …
she lives in an alternate universe ….
NYT favoring israel ….
proof ? 187 times mention israel over palestine ….
laughable ….
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.I am suspecting flamingOTD is not a religious jew ….
she complains about ‘sexism’ and about ‘white colonialists’ , libels the medina as being ‘genocidal’ and then infers that she is satmar anti zionist …
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.@shimon katz
you compare the machloket about the rebbi from chabad to the machloket about rav yonasan aibeshits
The way I see it – it probably is more similar to the machloket about the personality of rav kuk …
If rav kuk would have been a hasidic rebbe , they would have matched quite well ….
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.@AAQ
product of years of university studies without yeshiva studies …
whoever said that is probably somewhat biased – several years that L Rebbe spent when he was about 25-30 y.o. in U of Berlin and an engineering studies in Paris were way past his yeshiva years.
—-
the facts are — find out for yourself
the late rebbi of habad never attended any yeshiva … even during his yeshiva years ….
he probably learnt either by himself or under his father r levi
so what I wrote was accurate : the only institutions he attended were universities …
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these are the facts ..
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.correct , no need to look for unnecessary divisions. totally agree
but we can explore the facts as they are , without being divided
we are not served by living in a factless make believe lala world either
am just stating the facts as they are
I b’h get on in real life with anyone regardless of background or shitah
even with people who belong to shitot I really disagree with
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.chazon ish disagreed with the ba’alei mussar , this is widely known and not a secret at all
the steipler was not chassidish even though he came from chassidish stock
his was the litvish outlook on 95 % of the issues
you are correct that chazon ish was even more litvish than him
these are the plain facts and they are not ‘perpetuating’ machloket at all
I am the last to suggest that hasidim should disappear as you somehow tried to insinuate
neither did I disrespect any of them ….
there is no need of historical revisionism in order to keep away from machloket …
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.rav moshe sternbuch says in his weekly alon from last week that he himself heard from brisker rav
re the medina : that ALTHOUGH THE MEDINA WAS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT FOR THE MANY PLEITIM AFTER THE WAR , who were left without a roof
in that era , nevertheless its establishment is prohibited
and that we cannot ‘do business’ with yahadut
absorbing ‘losses’ by establishing a medina , and thereby ‘gaining’ a home for the many pleitim
now how is that for a kanna’i , nuanced and realistic view – for a change ?
btw. NOTHING GOT LOST IN TRANSLATION ….
—–
katan will refuse to recognize the sun , because it shines in the medina …
…
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.@square
Rabbi eliezer melamed has the same trustworthiness when it comes to information about rav kuk …
…. as somejew and katan.
they all are passul le’edut legabei rav kuk.
all are clear nog’im , one as a soneh , the other as a hasid.
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.the liar who calls himself somejew says :
‘there are zero charedi gedolim who have taught that [rav kuk] is not a rushe’ ….
imrai emet in osef michtavim titles him as harav hagaon ish haeshkolot and as someone with good midot albeit mistaken in certain issues ….
again – somejew claims that :
‘there are zero charedi gedolim who have taught that [rav kuk] is not a rushe’ ….
—-
now can we believe somejew on this topic anymore ?
or did he lose his chezkat kasrut ?
it seems that whenever somejew reads , hears or smells anything that starts with the letter z , he simply takes leave of his senses ….
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@shimon katz
The התנגדות that you mentioned was in fact (whether you like it or not) directed against the totality of Chabad, with undercurrents of the original Machlokes against Chassidus itself, which is why the other Chassidim didn’t join in. Why should the Litvaks expect to be able to force the (non-Chabad) Chassidim (the majority of voters by all accounts) to toe their line? This was the root of the split in Agudas Yisroel, Chabad was just one of the more high profile triggers. None of this is intended to belittle in any way the Heiliger Tzaddikim and Geonim of the Litvish camp, just to put the Chassidish POV in perspective. Machlokes between Tzaddikim unfortunately has been with us since the time of Yossef HaTzaddik and the Shevatim. It isn’t our business to butt in, as much as there is a Yetzer Hara to do so.
[shimon]
————–the hitnagdut I mentioned was NOT against the’totality’ of habad . It was against the totality of the late rebbi of habad , rather …
there was no hitnagdut against the early rebbeim of habad .
this is a canard spread by the current habad hasidut and patently baseless . there were no ‘undercurrents’ of machloket against hasidut themselves, either.
this was a macholoket to be had on its own merits … without hiding behind irrelevant earlier issues.
—–
I did not bring the issue of the historical split within aguda here for its own sake , who is right or wrong ….
it could very well be that the hasidim had more voters , thats not the issue
the main issue is that in one of the main arguments of the general hasidim vs rav shach
rav shach has BEEN PROVEN right – hands down .
this should serve as a major point in regard of whose methodology and whose approach is more reliable ….
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.Dear Shimon katz
I regret the upset caused to you by the various descriptions of the late rebbi of habad. That certainly was not the intention , rather a davar she’eino mitkaven . Nor was the upset you alluded to when complaining about my ‘copy and paste’ use of some of your words.
Not one description I used was my own . Each and every one is sourced in major and widely accepted torah leaders . As you noticed , I did not take sides in the two sides of the controversy re the personality in itself.
This should not be any different to the two yesh omrim’s which are often mentioned in shulhan aruch. Two valid opinions within torah.
As you rightly noted , I should not get involved in things above my pay grade. Which I do not.
But my original point still stands . You cannot use the personality itself as proof for the acceptability of certain misguided beliefs within habad , when said personality is clearly controversial in itself. This is simple logic.
Anything I wrote was merely as a reaction to claims that somehow because …
…. he “accomplished enormous good in the world, and left behind a rich legacy in writing, in other media, and in the people he inspired, which continues to generate more good and be mekarev countless Yidden to Hashem and His Torah literally worldwide” …
therefore …. the distortions of judaism contained within the mashiach/navi/atsmut/illusions of grandeur/superseding moshe rabenu xtian like drivel
should be accepted or ignored as being part of normative judaism as we knew it for the past thousands of years .
That’s all .
Barring this detrimental and false garbage being normalized , I have no interest at all in discussing the historical merits or otherwise of the late rebbi of habad.
Hope that clarifies my position to you and to yya …
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.I am not sure why yya keeps on including my name re manis freedman’s alleged kfira
I never saw him , never heard of him and therefore never commented about him
I simply have no idea and therefore no opinion about him
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.@aheimisher
the overwhelming majority of gdolei yisrael were against zionism , not only talmidim of the mosdot you mention …
on the other hand – it still could be that certain things satmar rebbe said or advocated for in the 1950’s , are not relevant in todays world …
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.ujm’s post from December 5, 2025 12:55 pm on page one of this thread :
somejew obviously means he davens for the Hamas soldiers defeat and destruction.
Hopefully you do as well.
—-ujm and somejew call hamas murderers by the unearned moniker of “soldiers” ….
thats like calling mengele or the ss camp guards —- soldiers
they are not soldiers at all
they are plain criminals
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.evalemoshiv is a pity to behold
he is convinced that he is the only one who sees the light …
all gdolei yisrael kdoshei elyon beki’m bechol hatorah be ‘iyun , yerei shamayim muflagim are in the dark …
only evalemoshiv knows better ….
is there a medicine for evalemoshiv’s illness ?
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.6] why did you ignore the questions posed to the qualified genocide scholar going under the name of flamingOTD ?
will repeat the questions , so that our eminent scholar will be able to give her erudite opinion :
what happens to a jew who walks by himself into most ‘nongenocidal’ arab towns in the middle east ?
what happens to an arab who walks by himself into most ‘genocidal’ israeli towns in the middle east ?
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.ujm blindly trusts the testimony of a confirmed mass murderer ….
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anyway —the historical episode with kastner – either way
is totally irrelevant to ujm ‘s real objective …
the dismantlement of the blindly hated medina
leaving millions of innocents at the ‘mercy’ of somejews friends , chas veshalom ….
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.flamingOTD is concerned about innocent children blown to bits in a war
very humane …
she even pretends to be a frum satmar minded woman , who is qualified to decide those issues of nefashot on her own , by listening and reading the news
and then using her own intuition
and voila , we have a ready judge and jury , a crime and a criminal .
no matter that the results of her libels are going to endanger many more innocents.
—
I have a few questions for our self appointed ‘kitchen genocide scholar’ …
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.1] how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?
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.2] given that hamas – and the majority of so called palestinians supported by many millions more,
want israel and its jewish inhabitants to literally disappear from the face of the earth
why do you describe people dying in israel’s defensive wars as dying to ‘make space’ for it ?
why are they not considered as dying to defend their own brothers existence ?
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3] why are you blindly parroting the distortions by the biased media ?why are you ignoring the fanatical armed men hiding in between those innocent children who are the real criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of those children on their hands ?
why are you so shallow to judge a book by the biased cover it was given by biased so called journalists ?
why are you not using some critical thinking instead of blindly following what biased people are feeding you ?
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4] why are those fanatical men not offering the usage of their hundreds of kms of tunnels to those innocent children ?is it because they are hoping for [!] those innocent children to be blown to bits ?
and hoping for flamingOTD to write heartwrenching ‘humane’ posts about those evil zionists ?
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5] why are you prepared to be the prop and the useful idiot in the hands of those very same criminalswho are the ones who have the blood of the children from their own community on their own hands
and are counting on you to do their bidding ?
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.I am suspecting flamingOTD is not a religious jew ….
she complains about ‘sexism’ and about ‘white colonialists’ , libels the medina as being ‘genocidal’ and then infers that she is satmar anti zionist …
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.ujm:
If you observed anyone referring to the Republic of Ireland as the Fourth Reich of Ireland, would you get as bent out of shape as you do when you hear the State of Israel being referred to as such? If not, it appears you give the Zionist State some sort of messianic categorization.
—complete shtuyot vahavalim .
I do not give any sort of messianic categorization to the medina
and nevertheless deeply resent people calling the medina anything close to the ‘Fourth Reich of Israel’ …
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.the fact is that the medina is the place millions of my brothers call home
and the millions of fanatical barbarians who want to do away with the medina AND WITH MY BROTHERS who live there
are the ones who employ this very same language to justify their barbarian blood lust
to do away with MY BROTHERS who live there chas veshalom
it is stupid [or evil] to disregard this obvious fact ….
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.Thanks to katan and to ujm who by their omissions and sidestepping confirmed :
not all gdolim considered rav kuk to be a rasha …..
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.I probably misquoted what I heard re emuna uvitachon
He was asked why did you write against the baalei mussar and not against the hasidim ?
– he answered that he was afraid of the reaction
when challenged that he did write a critique of the ba’alei mussar ?
he answered that that they are –after all , baalei mussar ….
.
I heard it from a mekor ne’eman .
.for once I agree with square
the historical episode with kastner – either way
is totally irrelevant to ujm ‘s real objective …
the dismantlement of the blindly hated medina
leaving millions of innocents at the ‘mercy’ of somejews friends , chas veshalom ….
.
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