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yankel > you have not internalized the calamity of OTD
aaq> so, I made several posts discussing how to deal with the danger. You did not seem to care about that, and it is me who does not care?
—
you are not responding to the point I made [which is common in your rejoinders]
I said – you have not internalized OTD as a “calamity” .
I said – you consider OTD as an “inconvenience”
.
.your suggestions how to deal with OTD, are more of an indication that you consider OTD a mere inconvenience.
.you would support sending all 10 of your kids to the army knowing full well 3 return OTD chvsh
but you could not , even after repeated prodding , support sending all 10 , knowing they return as cripples chvsh
.because …. returning as cripples – is a clear calamity ….
whereas returning OTD … in your opinion …. is obviously not .
.
@AAQ
yankel> don’t see any connection to ‘no true scotsman’ in any of my writings …
aaq > I meant that – in this case – you seem to only consider chachamim those who agree with your opinion.
—
Incorrect.
I treat both SR and r YB soloveitchik with reverence.
Both were chachamim .
Both were outliers and clearly a minority amongst the chachamim in their views.
—
What I am saying , and you did not address , is the current draft .All chachamim seeing the current draft problem with all its current realities and all its repercussions , agree not to enlist ..
aaq disagrees ….
..
.First of all, Palestine was under grave threat from the Nazi general Rommel, and Hashem supernaturally interceded to save all the Jews there from the evil Nazis ….
[katan]—
Not ‘supernatural’ .
that was not a nes .
just like Israeli military victories are not a nes
same with the military victory of the british at el alamein – it was not a nes .
both were clear hashgacha pratit.
.
.…. and for example, if the United States of America were to take over and annex that as an overseas territory, do you really think that President Trump or a similar leader would allow some savage to ruin that? No, he obviously would not.
[katan]—
Oh … after so much prodding …
finally did katan agree to let the cat out of the bag ….
the secret is out : the US is the mysterious esav who is going to administer EY .
the same US who withdrew from Afghanistan , Iraq and Lebanon after
many years ,
many dead ,
many wounded
many trillions of debt,that very same US will have the appetite to tolerate another round of their middle eastern adventures ?
and successive administrations will keep the course ?
new and changing majorities in congress and senate will keep up their support ?
..
the most important question – what will the situation be when the inevitable withdrawal will happen ?what is the situation going to be for the mothers and the children in EY ?
what is the situation going to be for the elderly in EY ?
what is the situation going to be for the fathers, the breadwinners and protectors of the family, in EY ?
what is katan suggesting ?
to have bitachon ?
.kdushat levi and r yisrael salanter both famously said that
there is no place for bitachon when someone else’s gashmiyut is at risk …am betting that katan would not risk his own house – where he should have bitachon- in such a scenario …
whoever follows katan in this reasoning , is totally off the torah derech ….
.@Square Root
Over the past 2 or 3 weeks, Zionist fanatics
here in the YWN Coffee Room have repeatedly stated
that “Chareidim are simply not interested in participating in over 20 endeavors needed by the public”.When will the person who made those false
Motzi Shem Ra attacks do teshuvah?Probably never, because lunatics do not do real teshuvah.
And brainwashed fanatics also do not do real teshuvah.When will the people who failed to protest
those false Motzi Shem Ra attacks do teshuvah?They retracted only one of the twenty – the one about hospitals ,
and let all other motsi shem ra stand …..It is erev rosh hashana ….
.
.telling a person he is naive
and that his naivete may be dangerous
is not meant as an insult
and should not be taken that way either
you cannot keep on talking in the name of ‘the law’ to force people into the army
when ‘the law’ is being trampled on in the most brazen way by the very same people who
are supposed to be the most exemplary upholders of that very same ‘law’
and are the ones fabricating on their own new laws , non existent
and never passed formal procedures in the knesset
and clearly contradicting actual laws , passed by all legal necessary procedures
if this sounds orwellian , it is because this is plain reality obvious to all besides the willfully blind ….
.
..
.
.As mentioned before, the point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here…”
You can look up the Satmar Rav’s holy words and see what he wrote. You can then take that to your LOR and ask him for details and see if he can provide to you those details if you’re really that curious. Please do not claim anything I write to be attributed to anyone’s Rebbi or Rebbe
[katan]—
in other words – katan hereby admits that he does not have a solution …
he refers ‘curious’ people to a non defined address
to explain a non defined idea …
and on top of all that, still expects the ‘non curious’ people to take him seriously ….
.
.the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.
[somejew]—
somejew clearly contradicts karyane de’igrata vol 1 …..
and contradicts worldwide accepted halachik practise in all batei hora’a
and all rabanim and dayanim
all because of some supposed obligation to fit with wrongly preconceived ideological shitah ….
.
.@AAQ
don’t see any connection to ‘no true scotsman’ in any of my writings ….
.
.He wasn’t simply “a prime minister 80 years ago”. He founded that idol “State”. But, regardless, yes, he certainly could obligate future governments.
[katan]According to katan – the first PM of the medina could obligate the medina 80 years later….
that shows the tenuous grasp on reality katan possesses ….
Not only is katan deficient in the torah and its analysis …
even to plain reality staring in to your face , to which the torah is meant to be applied, he is deficient …
how can his maskana count at all ?
.
.Would katan would use the services of any atheist/zionist/reform top surgeons …. ?
yes or no ?
. waiting for an honest answer
.katan seems afraid to answer ……
wonder why ….
.
@Avi k
Besides your shitot which are wrong
your facts are also wrong
R E Wasserman zatsal clearly refers to the term dati le’umi in his writings
at the end of kovets he’arot on yevamot
REW was murdered al kidush hashem in 1941 …
.
.
.@avi k
because the torah mandates this hishtadlut.
simple .
which protects , because they are listening to the torah
as does – not enlisting
that’s also listening to the torah
because he torah mandates listening to the sages who instructed not to enlist
the q is on you –
why do you think you are exempt from listening to the sages ?
.@AAQ
You seem to be ignorant of the facts .
And you are not addressing my point at all.
.
.politicians DID create a way to stop them.
the MAJORITY of the Knesset passed many laws to stop them ,
which were immediately vetoed by the same SC effectively blocking any voter based authority on this subject
this , while they themselves are the subject of the legislation ….
.
.your problem is that you are so naive that
in your wildest dreams they could not do such a thing
that’s why you discount plain reality right in front of your eyes
easy to check , read about it , george orwell in action , ….. right here , right now ….
unbelievable … but true …..
.
.AAQ
your approach stems from your lax attitude towards yahadut
you have not internalized the calamity of OTD , nor the calamity of OTD lemechtsa , lishlish ulerevi’a
in your eyes its not more than an inconvenience.
rav zilberstain is on record permitting hilul shabat !! mamash to avoid the draft, if the draft risks the yahadut of the draftee
thats only because halacha considers the calamity of OTD for what it really is …
.you have not yet responded to the q about the three sons returning as a cripple as result internal army policy
whether you would send all 10 of your sons
.
.learning horayot reminds us how pervasive mistakes are
so – why do you consider AAQ as more immune to mistakes than the collective of our chachamim ??
without getting personal – isn’t that a sign of hubris ??
.
.@AAQ
Reread : Previous post was not clear enough
.The SC canceled every law which they saw as touching their own authority . And that without any legal basis .
If that’s not illegal , then what is ?
.you seem to be [sorry] ok with
forming opinions without knowing fact and figures first
I rather hold of the following approach – First one gathers the facts and the figures , then one forms an opinion , accordingly.
.
..
.@AAQ
They will not transform the army .
The army will transform them .
.And that’s exactly their objective !
thousands of our forefathers lived with mesirut nefesh mamash in order to transmit the mesorah to us
its much too precious to squander it on some irresponsible ‘temporary feel and look good’ venture ….
.
.sechor sechor amrinan lenezirah lekarma lo tikrav …
al tevi’enu lyedie nisayon
Besides , once they go , the dam has burst and all will go ….
its time you should be mitchazek a bit more in your emunat chachamim ….
.
..
The only ones who would have those details would be those in political power, not ordinary commenters on this forum.
[katan]—
Katan agrees here that he himself does not have those details …Meaning he himself does not know which esav country would be willing to assume control of EY ….
And which esav country will be accepted by the Arabs in EY …
And still assumes that he is able to convince his readers of the practicality of his suggestion in 2025
without him self even knowing what he is suggesting ….
am wondering whether his readers should be insulted …
insulted by the apparent lack of basic intelligence katan is imputing to them ….
.
.Those details aren’t needed because the point addressing the OP was sufficiently made without those details …
[katan]—
There are questions remaining even after your post . Seems that your point was not sufficiently made …..
.AAQ is insinuating in his latest post that he would send all ten even when having clear foreknowledge that three will come back OTD …
I don’t have a problem at all with his strategy of minimizing risk
but sometimes reality is such that losses will for sure occur
and AAQ has let us know that even in a case of a certain loss of three of his children’s religion , he would still send all ten
.here is the crux of the issue , here is THE point where AAQ deviates from the unanimous haredi sages’ position.
AAQ is willing to sacrifice three of his sons’ religion
on the altar of ‘sharing burdens’ and on the altar
of the false hope of finding favor in eyes of those who disdain us
while the haredi consensus is
that our children’s religion is one of the most precious things one can have, not to be bartered for anything in the universe
—By the way , AAQ has not insinuated at all , about what he would do if he had foreknowledge that 3 of his sons would come back as cripples chv’sh , not as result of combat , but as result of internal army policy ?
From his lack of answer we could safely assume that he would not send any of his ten sons ….
.
and here comes the million dollar question –
MA NISHTANA between 3 sons without religion and 3 sons without their health [both chv’sh] ???
I suspect that AAQ considers – like all other critics on this page , and all around the world for that matter …-
loss of religion, a relatively minor problem , while a lack of health a major one ….
.
.
The difference between the Sages and their critics is this following point :
how tragic and how major is the issue of decline in yirat shamayim or the issue of OTD ?Is it a calamity ?
or an inconvenience ?
.if you support forced haredi draft, it is an inconvenience .
if you resist haredi draft, it is a calamity.
.
.quite simple…..
.katan :
The point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.”
—Why are the details not relevant ?
Why are we not obligated to provide them ?
Do we have those details at all ?
.
They obviously believe that the Torah protects. Thats why they are learning whenever not protesting.
The reason why they protest is because they listen to the Sages who advised to protest.
Because the torah commanded them to listen to the Sages.
So , listening to Sages is another form of listening to the Torah , which protects.
So yes, protesting protects from the gezerat shmad which is imposed on them by your friends.
.katan :
Any objective observer would conclude, as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. This blows the mind of the Zionist idolaters, but that’s the reality. The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.
—Utter folly.
SR wrote that in the fifties or in the forties when huge nations were ruled by colonial empires.
This era is long gone.
There no Arab populations being governed by esav anywhere on the globe for a long time.
There is a valid reason for that , just in case you don’t know …
They think that they can do a much better job.
Right or wrong , but that’s what they think .
So once mr katan will agree to this reality , which even a ten year old can grasp ,
then we are in business …. Arabs will not agree to be governed by outsiders , esav or not , SR or not .
Katan claims that he has some big secret in his bag , which for some mysterious reason we are not allowed to know about ….
the details of the future governing power in EY ….
he has let on that it is esav , but the rest we still have to guess …. why ???
Aha , because we are “idolaters” …..
Thats seems a fitting punishment for zionists like us !
We are sentenced to mandatory guessing games ….
—
When will katan and somejew be honest enough to agree that they do not have a solution for the pikuach nefesh needs of the jews in EY ?
When will that happen ?
Because , without honesty , it is exceedingly difficult to have real debate ….
.
.Come on ….
Inter – Arab violence and clear mass pikuach nefesh in all 12 instances I mentioned which happened over the last 20 years are because of the Zionists ????
Hamas throwing Arabs off high rises is because of zionists ??
They have no regard whatsoever for human life , not their own and for sure not about their perceived enemies.
This is not written as a passing of moral judgement .
This is merely an observation of reality.
A reality which cannot be wished away .
A reality which has to be dealt with .
Same with all other 12 examples of totally depraved barbarities
depicted in real life right in front of our very eyes over the last 20 years all around the Middle East .
katan and somejew remind me of the proverbial ostriches
instead of burying their heads in the sand
they turn the clock back to the 1880’s – voila , no problems at all ….. all solved …..
its all the z ‘s fault ….
as if that changes reality by a millimeter …..
..
Re R Steinman
I think the answer is simple.
Did he support the draft ?
Absolutely not.
But he recognized that we do not live in an ideal world , and that necessitates pragmatism
he recognized that haredim are a minority living in galut.
the binary choice would -in his view- be
between all out war with the majority as it unfortunately became the case now, and
a tacit approval for the weaker non yir’at shamayim element , or better said the hefker OTD crowd who still wear haredi levush
to enlist and have a rigid framework , while all other haredim , including the working element legally deferring or being exempted.
So , barring a clear cut case of haredi levush but already OTD , he would advise not to enlist
that’s my understanding of his approach , and may be wrong …
.@AAQ
If you think they are violating some rules, then other parts of the system, like Knesset, should be able to override them …Fully agreed.
They should be able to override …
You are not updated, seems like – they did override them , multiple times …
They canceled every law which they saw as touching their own authority . And that without any legal basis .
If that’s not illegal , then what is ?
you seem to be [sorry] ok with something called the ‘ostrich approach’
I rather hold of the following approach – First one gathers the facts and the figures , then one forms an opinion , accordingly.
.
.@AAQ
thanks for the correction about the mareh makom of the turei zahav
my memory is not exact enough
there is no difference between a ben torah and talmid chacham , however ,
the principle of turei zahav stands regardless
.@non political
you are 100 % right in your observation
.
.the question I am repeatedly posing to AAQ , and did not merit to receive a straight answer to — yet , is
a hypothetical one
AAQ obviously does not have 10 sons eligible for the Israeli draft , and
obviously he has no foreknowledge what is going to happen to them
.but AAQ [in addition to countless others] is very quick to pass judgement on the leaders of haredi judaism
for their advice discouraging the draft.
AAQ himself , even after numerous direct and targeted prodding , declined to answer 2 simple questions
.It is safe to assume that the reason of his repeated non answer is
because he knows that any honest answer will include a negative – no , he will not send any of his sons
.in the case of three of them returning as a cripple, for sure not
and in the case of three of them returning OTD , also not.
.so AAQ himself in regard to his own children would advise them not to enlist …
.why is he critical of gdolei yisrael who advise the exact same to
their students who alpi torah are considered like their own children ?
.
.it is becoming clearer and clearer that criticism of non enlistment
is rooted in either a lack of care for the individual to be enlisted, or
a lack of care about the overwhelming calamity of this individual going OTD
.
.… it’s not very relevant what to expect from Arab rule in the holy land …, because nobody suggested that Arabs should rule there …
[katan]—
plain incorrect .
somejew is clearly on record , claiming repeatedly that Arabs are respected and should be trusted with government in EY.
I asked 12 realistic questions – no answer whatsoever has been forthcoming ,yet ….
katan, however , claims some ‘unnamed esav’ should be trusted to take over government
katan consistently declines to name that country , however.
it seems it’s meant to be some sort of surprise …. in the ruach of purim maybe ….
when katan will deign to specify which country is going to be trusted to shield EY’s jews from a wild and hating Arab populace
we should ask him too whether the same wild Arab populace of EY , has agreed to be governed by this ‘esav country’ ??
very important question …
maybe katan knows what we do not know ….
maybe katan knows of other Arab populations which are governed by ‘esav vountries’ ??
he should share their names with us
just in the very unlikely case that we will be met with deafening silence as an answer [or with sidestepping]
which will cause us to take this an admission that there are not any esav countries governing Arab populations on the globe
the next question will come up – why not ??
why are no Arab populations governed by any esav countries ??
.
.the only plausible reason I can see on
why people take the issue of OTD lightly – is that they only pay lip service to this whole scare of OTD
they do not really care about it ….
so they belittle it …
no study , no this , no that …..
.
.As it happens, though, there is a different example, Morocco, where even now the Jewish community still exists, with active support of their Muslim king who has restored synagogues and promoted Jewish heritage.
[katan]—
I hear your answer here.
But mr katan , what is your honest opinion ,
will EY under Arab control resemble Morrocco , a stable country for as long as we can remember, or
one of the other 12 examples of recent and present mass pikuach nefesh areas in the ME ?
considering the exagerated grievances the Arab locals are being fed with their mother’s milk for many generations
and considering the wide support hamas and islamic jihad receive in Arab society
and considering hamas’ stated policy of “the suitcase or the coffin” [H yishmor]
or their promise to duplicate October 7 again again , until there are no more jews left in palestine [H yishmor]
an honest answer mr katan – would you wager your own house on this ????
.
honesty – honesty , goes a long way ……
.
.@AAQ
the q is still very simple – in a case when it cannot be helped !
if it is impossible to rectify it, when you know for sure that this is a fixed result , no matter what advice you give the kids,
.A] 3 kids are coming back crippled l’o
would you send all ten – yes or no ?
.B] 3 kids are coming back without their religion l’o
would you send all ten – yes or no ?
—
no reason to fear an honest answer …
.
@AAQ
saying something is illegal when it is illegal is not “vile” at at all
it is merely stating a legal fact
Hafets Hayim would never object to that
.@aaq
Never said their position was not a legitimate position as a private opinion within the Israeli State.
According to Israeli law they can advocate for this position , run for election , and attempt that their position should garner a majority and then pass it into law.
Totally within their rights acc to Israeli Law .
But to falsely label full time torah students as criminals , dodgers or fugitives etc , when SC’s cancellation of the Tal Law was done in an unauthorized and therefore illegal way , is beyond acceptable .
The people acting as enforcers of this illegal decision, are legally nothing more than kidnappers .
This is a plain legal issue , not a call to violence at all.
The SC cancelling Knesset’s law regulating the SC’s own authority is nothing more than one big farce. Even a ten year old sees through it.
This not “vile” ,
this is accurate.
.My imperfect understanding that politically the law was damaged by lack of results – while it proposed a path for charedim to integrate, that did not happen. That was a chance for some compromise, but I guess both sides decided to risk and press their advantage.
[aaq]
—Yes, I do agree that yours is an imperfect understanding , sorry about that.
The ONLY reason Tal law is not officially in force now – is the SC .
Nothing else.
They used non-existing authority to cancel it.
So it legally follows – that if cancellation is illegal – the law is legally still in force.
.
Simple.
.@AAQ
its a mitsva for a ben torah to be asleep at 3 am
he needs to concentrate the next day
cf. turei zahav EH 23.
.
@AAQ
Got news for you .
Majority of Knesset is of the same opinion as me .
They acted already .
They passed laws curtailing the SC’s illegal activities .
Which were illegally overturned by that very same SC.
Those illegal rulings by the SC were illegally enforced by thugs, paid by leftists , who virtually stopped everything.
And threatened to destroy the whole country if SC’s power is diminished in any way.
They were aided and abetted by the MSM and the corrupt judicial system .
So without any recourse , the Knesset was rendered practically powerless …..
Unbelievable – right ?
I couldn’t make it up …
These are the plain facts….
Follow the Israeli news , and its all there …..
.I am still [patiently…] waiting for AAQ’s wisdom ….
.Katan is too scared to answer questions
He knows that honesty will not serve him too well ….
.A few questions for katan – which the Brisker Rav did not address …
.katan will have to use his own head ….
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for yazidi’s in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for alawites in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for kurds in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for xtians in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for druze in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Sudan within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Libya within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Yemen within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs in Gaza from hamas within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Lebanon within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Iraq within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
—
Assuming katan and somejew are honest enough to give accurate responses to the above questionsthe question follows –
why do they assume that the hated and demonized jews will fare any better that the above mentioned fellow arabs and fellow muslims ?
hope the lalaland somejew and katan commenters will not, like a one trick pony , broken record like, start us about the supposedly idyllic situation of the jews in moslem lands before the advent of zionism some 120 years ago.
This is totally irrelevant .
What is relevant — is what we can logically expect from the Arabs in 2025 …
the question is dramatic and immediate – MA NISHTANA IN 2025 ,
why are all those fellow arabs and fellow muslims in sakana over the last 20 years ,
and the jews will suddenly be safe ???
.
..
notice to katan –
All ‘real non-Zionist posekim’ paskin halacha lema’aseh, that
the subsequent children of a grusha, divorced with a get signed by fully frum athalta digeuola believers , to be ksherim lavo bakahal .
this is pashut and also easily verifiable .
this is fully in line with steipler who unequivocally states
its assur to speak lashon hara about dati le’umi as they are not yatsa michlal amitecha …
.
.
.Brisker Rav published a KK signed by the Gerrer Rebbe and many others that “Dati Leumi” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.”
—KK was referring to dati le’umi hinuch in their era and their locale.
Nothing more.
And , again, the KK was lesheim hitrachkut , not to entrust your children to them.
Not lehalacha.
.
Notice to katan .
sfarim hakdoshim write that ka’as is heresy .
Wine of a ko’es is not yayin nesech ….
.Rav Elchonon states b&w in kovetz maamarim that “Dati leumi” is literal idolatry.
—REW z’l did not issue any halacha psak that “Dati leumi” is literal idolatry.
Far from it.
This was a ma’amar hashkafa , and meant as mussar vehit’orerut.
Not lehalacha.
Pashut to any beginner ….
.Chazon Ish NEVER stated that dati le’umi wine is yayin nesech.
None of chazon ish devotees ever considered dati leumi touched wine as yayin nesech.
This a verifiable fact .
There are hundreds of chazon ish devotees in BB , serious talmidei hahamim .
Utter baloney.
.AAQ
the reason I employ the term ‘legally considered kidnappers’ is merely a reaction
a reaction to the tsunami of moralizing and smearing adjectives thrown in the direction of innocents
adjectives like ‘lawbreakers’ or ‘criminals’ or ‘dodgers’, which are misplaced.
full time learners , and haredim more generally, are a minority treated with disdain and derision
in a sea of powerful well-oiled secularism
not only haredim are treated with said disdain and derision –
settlers of the dati le’umi variety have the doubtful privilege to receive the same type of treatment in Israel ,
they are also a despised minority there , although the latest turn of the political wheels
made them temporarily forget their ‘special status’
the wheels in Israel turn very fast …
.@aaq
??
.AAQ
but that was not what my post was about .
my post was about the legality of the kidnappers who enforce the illegal draft
speaking in a strictly legal sense
which you did not address at all
.
AAQ
Israel is not America .
To use American tactics in Israel is naive and therefore dangerous .
You will be taken for a ride .
As experience has amply shown.
.Katan is continuing to live in lala land …
A few questions for him – which the Brisker Rav did not address …
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for yazidi’s in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for alawites in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for kurds in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for xtians in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for druze in the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Sudan within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Libya within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Yemen within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs in Gaza from hamas within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Lebanon within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
Is / was there pikuach nefesh for arabs from each other in Iraq within the Middle East in the last 20 years ?
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Assuming katan and somejew are honest enough to give accurate responses to the above questionsthe question follows –
why do they assume that the hated and demonized jews will fare any better that the above mentioned fellow arabs and fellow muslims ?
hope the lalaland somejew and katan commenters will not, like a one trick pony , broken record like, start us about the supposedly idyllic situation of the jews in moslem lands before the advent of zionism some 120 years ago.
the question is dramatic and immediate – MA NISHTANA IN 2025 ,
why are all those fellow arabs and fellow muslims in sakana over the last 20 years ,
and the hated [no difference why] jews will suddenly be safe ???
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