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katan :
Finally, in addition to all that, the midrash notes that the final geulah is something that must come from Hashem alone, not from man’s efforts (other than Torah and mitzvos, of course).
—katan would have us believe that man cannot make any effort for the final ge’oula ….
so how exactly did r akiva think that bar kochba was mashiach ?
.
.was r akiva so badly mistaken ?
or is rather katan badly mistaken ?
.
.@somejew
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….and now i’m trying to find any meforshim that have the same hava amina as you ….—
it’s not a hava amina , rather it is a maskana.its not the same as “me” , rather the same as the overwhelming majority of klal yisrael and their gdolei talmidei hahamim
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somejew:I believe we can both agree on the following:
If there is an imminent threat to the life of a jew, one is allowed to stop the murderer, even in galus.
That is also allowed on shabbos, because of p/n.
One is not allowed to organize an army and fight a ruling non-jewish king, as that breaks the 3 shavuos.ad kan divrei somejew
—no , absolutely not
we totally cannot agree on your words
.
.in the case of the tsorerim who come al iskei kash , mentioned in shulhan aruch . how exactly are you fighting them ?
only one man at a time ?
come on . there is a rabim who are coming and there is a rabim who are defending .
the rabim who are defending are told to do so by a certain non agadic sefer called shulhan aruch
written by the master of halacha , the bet yosef .
.
.i rest my case.
==============================================All your problems in understanding this berayta and psak in shulhan aruch stem from one source only :
– your insistence that
A] not like shut avnei nezer [sof YD] …. the shavu’ot are binding lehalacha
B] even if the 3 shavu’ot , would be binding lehalacha ,
pikuach nefesh , while docheh everything else , including actually swearing false or contravening a previous shavu’a
is for some mysterious reason not docheh those shavu’ot..
.
.
Change – for one moment only – your insistence about A and B ,and you will see that all your problems in understanding the shulchan aruch , the tur , the rambam and the berayta will disappear in smoke.
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try it .
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.fact is and remains that xtianity is using the habad mashiach fiasco and theological jokes , for their own nefarious purposes.
.
As some examples of their misuse of habad theology:
if menachem mendel can be a navi – against long held jewish tradition
then j could tooif menachem mendel could come back as mashiach – against long held jewish tradition
then j could tooif menachem mendel could be characterized as “pnei adon hashem”
then j could tooif menachem mendel is worthy of being prayed to
then j is tooif menachem mendel is the resting place of ein sof
then j is tooand the list can go on and on ….
.
.habad ‘s daring theological innovations are not daring .
they are downright dangerous …..
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.
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.…… there is still a very, very big difference between this group of minim who are mesisim uMedichim on the largest imaginable scale (the Zionists of course) versus a “mere” rasha (not a min, but a rasha).
ad kan divrei katan .
—the russian tsar [and the russian empire] was a rasha merusha ,and caused much trouble beruchniyut uvegashmiyut, not less than the tsionim ,
and nevertheless , rav mibrisk credited his building of the Siberian railway for the rescue of thousands of yehudim [including the Mirrer yeshiva ,the only yeshiva to have collectively survived the war]
this is a good example of yachin rasha vetsadiq yilbash
any difference between the types of reshaim is only a consequence of your stubborn refusal to push the reset button on long held dogmatic belief
=============
katan:
For example, if a rasha builds some mansion – and nobody ever even heard of this rasha – then there doesn’t seem to be any concern that his rishus will be validated by his palace going to a tzaddik. Even if they did hear of him, people buy and sell houses all the time and almost nobody cares who originally built his house unless there is some prestige or other gain from that.Whereas, if the Zionist State were to be the basis for the geulah (which is impossible, of course, but in theory, if it were), then it would clearly cast a positive light on that idolatry and heresy (which it factually is according to the Torah).
ad kan divrei katan
—like the siberian railway does not “cast any positive light on that rasha merusha , the russian tsar”
and like the famous beit halevy who similarly explains that the reshaim the roman empire , who burnt our bet hamikdash and mass murdered our nation , do not get any s’char for their building highways and bridges which helped the yehudim of EY, , but was nevertheless an example of yachin rasha vetsadiq yilbash.
they do not get sechar because of their evil intentions
and the roman highways and bridges which helped the yehudim of EY , ” do not cast any positive light on that roman empire of rish’ut” either
and nevertheless factually still helped the yoshvei EY
same with the infrastructure built by the reshaim , the tsionim ” do not cast any positive light on the of rish’ut of mesitim umedichim” either
and nevertheless factually still helped and still helps the yoshvei EY the tsadiqim who still benefit from said infrastructure.
yachin rasha ve tsadiq yilbash.
.
no difference in the type of rasha , roman murderers or a murderous tsar or mesitim umadichim under the zionist guise , or communist guise or whatever guise.
yachin rasha vetsadiq yilbash
this principle applies , no difference who the rasha is .
==================================
katan:
….. , the Brisker Rav surely knew that Rambam at least as well as anyone today, and he still stated exactly what he did due to Chazal’s dictum that Hashem causes zechus to come from zakai, and the opposite from the opposite.
—
I do not believe rav mibrisk ever said it is impossible that any good could ever come from a rasha
evil romans and a despotic Russian tsar are excellent refutations of such a dogmatic approach.
============katan :
…. The Satmar Rav actually went further and drew a kal vaChomer from min sheKasav Sefer Torah that it must be burned. If we need to go that far to ensure a min’s name is not relatively well-known, then surely Hashem will ensure that nothing (significant?) – he was referring to infrastructure, if memory serves – from the Zionists will remain when Moshiach comes.
ad kan divrei katan
—a min who builds a house , the house has to be burnt ?
hordos was a ma’amin or a min ?
the building on top of me’arat hamachpela has to burnt ?
the stones of the kosel have to be burnt ?
moreover the second beit hamikdash after hordos’ renovation had to be burnt ?
by a sefer tora there are special requirements, absent in other places
======================katan :
Finally, in addition to all that, the midrash notes that the final geulah is something that must come from Hashem alone, not from man’s efforts (other than Torah and mitzvos, of course).ad kan divrei katan
—we will need the exact source for such a medrash
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.================================================
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.Hope katan is not running away , like his buddy , somejew did recently …..
Hello
Mr somejew ??
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@aaq
aaq:
[re khazars transgressing the 3 shavu’ot]
“technically, they did not! The king first was the king and then did giyur. So, kingdom was “grandfathered in”……—
katan fraudulently maintains that lfi hahalacha , and I quote
“It is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political rule there before Mashiach comes.”
—
note it’s not ***establishing*** political rule which katan prohibits
it is “for jews ***having*** political rule before Mashiach comes, which katan prohibits.
—
which is clearly disproven by total rabbinic silence over hundreds of years in the face of the continued existence of a jewish kingdom .
.
.
.to qwerty
you are right
harav mibrisk has been reliably quoted – when he read the first sicha of their rebbi , after they took the so called ‘nesi’ut hador’ from the rashag [r shmaryahu gurary] the oldest son in law of the rayats .
that this newly minted rebbi fantasizes that he is the mashiach
interesting how certain people can see things beshoresh while others barely see them even when begaluy.
.
.where is somejew ?
if that was one of the ikarei emuna as satmar so loudly proclaims the rabanim would have written about this .
such a flagrant beach of the yesodot of our faith ….
what do you think , we did not have rabanim of the caliber of satmar rav in those times ?
why did r yehudah halevi not mention one word about this in his monumental sefer hakuzari where all other even minor aspects of judaism are elucidated ?
come on, where is common sense ?
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.re a menuval being used for a yeshu’a
have a look in rambam hakdama le mishnayot where he writes that God will help a rasha to build a huge palace in order that a tsadiq will years later be able to rest in its shade
and finishes the rambam , that is the pshat in the pasuk ‘yachin rasha ,ve tsadiq yilbash’.
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so according to rambam it is possible that a tsadiq would benefit from the menuval ,and moreover , said menuval receives his siyata dishmaya in the merit of the tsadiq
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.Nu ..
khazars transgressed the shavu’ot ?
?
waiting …..
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Somejew disappeared …..
was that a disappearance because of lack of answers ?
who knows ….
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.hakatan :
It is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political rule there before Mashiach comes.
—
WRONG !—
khazar kings dissolved their kingdom straight away when they converted ?have any of the rabbanim instructed them to do so ?
why not ?
.lets see katan wriggle his way out of this one ….
he will probably just ignore it ….
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.
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.sechel:
Calling the rebbe a … Is apikorses—-
I called him a non navi .
is that apikorses ?
.ujm :
Eretz Yisroel is in Golus. Anyone who claims otherwise is an apikorus. Theodore Herzl did not end golus and David Ben-Gurion was not Moshiach.seems that ujm is qualified to argue with one of our gdolei hador , Steipler in karyaneh de’igrata vol 1 clearly writes that one who subscribes to athalta dige’uola ideology ,
while wrong , is not an apikorus.
.
.fyi be careful with your posts
tosefot yom tov made that connection , not just anyone
re your difficulty
heard r salamon explained that punishments came because of any averot , but in a normal setting people would pray
and thus avert the gzera
however if someone denigrates prayer , said prayer is powerless to help him , with the result that the punishment stays.
.
.hello ?
you are right, the rebbi – navi fallacy is widespread within habad
but toally non existent within normative judaism
this fallacy has a clear source ,
the navi himself, crowned himself , in dvar malhut shoftim 5751
and all hasidim ‘proved’ his nevua from the very same dvar malhut
and then challenged the reasonable world to disprove
something which was proven and already established as fact
as a result of the above
the following habad generations are raised to believe , with their mother’s milk
that the tekufat hanevu’a ended with the shloshe asar
instead of [as known to all jews of the last few millenia] , the trei asar
there is hagai , zeharya , malachi and menachem mendel.
all because of the dvar malhut of shoftim 5751 ….
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.
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.sechel is right about the orthodox rabbi.
[he is repeating my point here]
.sechel is wrong in mindlessly repeating the navi nonsense
and in mindlessly repeating the mashiach nonsense.
and in mindlessly repeating all of the habad nonsense which was never part of the original habad.
sechel and his fellow habadi apologists should be very, very , wary of the collective orthodox rabbi’s acceptance of their siddur kidushin ve gittin.
they are pushing the boundaries with their ever increasing nonsense.
once they cross it, it will be too late .
they will end up in the company of jews for j , the reform and the conservatives.
they ought to be very careful.
.
..
.@square root
the RZ tell their rabanim what to say
whereas the haredim listen to their rabanim
square root does not know what he is talking about
and should concentrate on his beki’ut in artscroll biographies , his only strong point.
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.You are right.
Apologise.
Wanted to make sure somejew sees it and responds.
And if he doesnot respond we will know for sure that he saw it .
And his lack of response will be the ultimate sign that he lacks a response.
.
.Somejew is so committed to deny the am hayoshev betsion their rightful halachik p/n protections because of Z, that he will even stop a soldier reporting for duty in his Arrow 3 anti missile unit .
Even though the only possible action in this unit is purely defensive .
The only possible action they could do , is shooting down iranian missiles the size of a bus with half a ton of explosives in the drivers seat.
Practically speaking , “so called dayan somejew” will paskan that said soldier should stay home .
Stay home, and as a result al pi derech hatevah , innocent civilians all over artsenu hakdosha will have to deal with five to tenfold more such buses raining down over their heads ….
And somejew still thinks that this ‘so called psak of his’ is considered as going through the rigorous process of halachik give and take as practiced in orthodox Judaism for the last thousands of years ….
I have one word to accurately describe somejew’s approach and responsibility :
UNBELIEVABLE.
.
.
.
.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.you are right.
they are 2 different belief systems .
the problem is that one side hides it.
hides it behind feel good stories and feel good teachings.
it is important to feel good and to make other people feel good.
equally, however one should not fear the emet.
the truth as it is.
the facts as they are, without any sidestepping and without any other avoidance tricks.
they would earn trust if they could bring themselves to confront the facts .
confront them head on , with truth and candor .
and with courage.
it seems that they are so afraid of the facts , they run a mile whenever challenged.
.
.you asked about the rebbi of habad being mashiach ?
—first of all , there is absolutely no reason to assume that he is .
—second , there are clear proofs that he is not.
—third – according to habad long held belief , there is clear proof that he is not
—so – the only thing left for us to explore , is the following astounding fact.
belief in his supposed messiahship is widespread within the habadi circles.
whereas in non habadi circles [- the overwhelming majority of orthodox judaism] , this is non existent.
—
which begs the question – is this unreasonable phenomenon , engineered ?
or did this just ‘happen’ by itself ?
—
important query
.
.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.Hello ?
@ somejew
Q is very clear .
So clear that I cannot understand what you dont understand.
You wrote that that the only recourse when threatened is running away giving presents or any shtadlanut besides for fighting.
Fighting is against the shavu’ot , AND EVEN PIKUACH NEFESH IS NOT DOCHEH THE SHAVU’OT.
Thats in short a summary of your writing.
And that last point which i put in bold , is THE ISSUE where you diverge from klal yisrael and all the talmidei hahamim and poskim.
—Now – shulhan aruch clearly disagrees wiyh you on that very point
Shulhan Aruch mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy
.
.and again:
… mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy ….
———————–As simple a proof as can be ….
.
.
Am waiting for a response .
.
.
.still waiting for a response to the following ???
—Shulhan Aruch mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy
.
.and again:
… mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy ….
.
Another indication three oaths are NOT lehalacha.
.
.Somejew and katan are fraudulently dreing a kop.
They all claim that its preferable to rather let millions of innocent yehudim die , than be over on their corrupted version of non existent halachik shavu’ot.
This THE line dividing them and the majority of klal yisrael.
You can find any other weasel words to get out of acknowledging this true and extremely important halachik schism between us.
But this schism exists .
And is liable to have far reaching repercussions.
They should go back to the root of their mistaken thinking and carefully retrace their halachik deliberations to make one hundred percent sure their reasoning is foolproof.
Otherwise they will be guilty of megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha and on top of that be guilty of being mafkir damam shel harabim.
.
Somejew and katan are fraudulently dreing a kop.
They all claim that its preferable to rather let millions of innocent yehudim die , than be over on their corrupted version of non existent halachik shavu’ot.
This THE line dividing them and the majority of klal yisrael.
You can find any other weasel words to get out of acknowledging this true and extremely important halachik schism between us.
But this schism exists .
And is liable to have far reaching repercussions.
They should go back to the root of their mistaken thinking and carefully retrace their halachik deliberations to make one hundred percent sure their reasoning is foolproof.
Otherwise they will be guilty of megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha and on top of that be guilty of being mafkir damam shel harabim.
.
.
.Satmar , somejew and katan are fraudulently dreing a kop.
They all claim that its preferable to rather let millions of innocent yehudim die , than be over on their corrupted version of non existent halachik shavu’ot.
This THE line dividing them and the majority of klal yisrael.
You can find any other weasel words to get out of acknowledging this true and extremely important halachik schism between us.
But this schism exists .
And is liable to have far reaching repercussions.
They should go back to the root of their mistaken thinking and carefully retrace their halachik deliberations to make one hundred percent sure their reasoning is foolproof.
Otherwise they will be guilty of megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha and on top of that be guilty of being mafkir damam shel harabim.
.
.
.The problem with their false meshihiyut is that this was a project very long in the making .
This was cunningly conceived and in a drip drip fashion administered.
Reminds me of climate change [referring both to the dissemination of its theory and the actual climate change]
Chinese expansion is also similar .
They all happen , gradually.
In minute increments.
You do not realize its really happening , all the while it is happening .
And then , suddenly it’s there .
Suddenly it’s there ,growing right under your nose …
Without you ever noticing ….
The decades came and went and suddenly there is a whole established mashiach fantasy , right across your fence.
.
.Wow.
.
.
.But r shach for sure held that habad nowadays, harbor substantial departures from our collective mesorah.
@ejwebb
thanks .
you are right – dismissing them entirely means losing something precious.
.
This blow up of the so called three oaths halachot, is a minority satmar shitah.
Which is overused for polemical purposes
And not to be taken literally .
Feel bad for katan and somejew who naively are taking it at face value.
Even SR himself did not consider this literal halacha .
Nor did he consider the medina as literal kefira
He used language and stirred emotions normally reserved for real halacha and real kefira in order to accomplish great things in distancing the haredi world from Zionism.
Period.
.
.katan is spouting rubbish again , as usual.
Why do you post things that are against the Torah and that are also baseless? Giluy panim baTorah sheLo kaHalacha is not a joking matter.
Three oaths are omitted by yad halacha [rambam] . tur and shulchan aruch .
Says Avnei Nezer [gadol haposkim before the first world war] is clear proof that it’s not lehalacha.
.
.
.
.
Besides the above , Shulhan Aruch mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy
.
.and again:
… mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy ….
.
Another indication three oaths are NOT lehalacha.
.
.
.
Remember Mr. katan – Giluy panim baTorah sheLo kaHalacha is not a joking matter.
.
.Rav shach said clearly in public that the rebbi from habad was an apikorus.
He was very seriously against habad’s leader.
Question is only whether this was in his mind halachik kfira , apikorusut , or not .
If yes , then all meat shechted by habadi’s would according to him , automatically be treif, all gittin ve kidushin with habadi witnesses , invalid.
Which would have huge consequences.
My guess is that he did not consider them to be full fledged halachik apikorsim .
.
.
.The problem is – in my opinion at least – that they are good people , nice people.
With lousy theology.
If you attack them , there is a guaranteed backlash .
Such nice and good people do not deserve to be attacked .
And the backlash – again in my opinion at least – is correct.
They – as individuals , as human beings , do not deserve it .
The chochma is to differentiate between the people and their ideology.
Which happens to be true .
Wonderful people , with a substandard and self contradictory ideology , designed and packaged for mass brainstop.
Or mass brainwash , as one prefers.
.
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.Negi’ot are just like blinkers.
A horse doesn’t perceive what outside his vision as reality.
The above seems the only way how a normal habadi does not see the inherent contradictions and inconsistencies in his own belief system .
If someone is noge’a bedavar , he is as good as blinkered .
Ki hashochad ye’aver …..
.Powerful.
.And ok maybe that’s not a nevuah so what???
Maybe it’s nevuah but a different level! So.. point??—
Its not halachik nevu’a .
but anonymous rabanim allegedly ‘paskened’ that it is ?
Come on …
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