yankel berel

It seems like that the habad propaganda machine has run out of steam . We should give them some time to recuperate.
They were working overtime, seems like.
It must have been too much.

So it might be our turn to offer to provide answers to their questions now. Such as Why do you ….

You the neo habad sceptics , for lack of a better name…
Or all non habad yehudim ….

Why are you sceptic only about our wonderful movement which is the only contemporary embodiment of all of Judaism’s generations from Abraham Avinu to today ?

Is there anything beyond simple sin’at hinam at play here ?

.
We should attempt , unlike CS, to provide honest and clear answers here .

To the point answers and not shirking anything.

Whoever wants to join – is welcome.
.

@hakatan

Regarding ikar 12 –

How is establishment of medina a denial of mashiach ?? Why can’t they both exist ???

He still yearns for and believes in Mashiach who will restore the Bet hamikdash , metaher klal yisrael and meishiv them bitshuva, take away the lev even mibsarhem ,bring back malhut bet david , take away the nations’ hate of the yehudim , bring the shechina back down to this world and the kiyum of all of the nevu’ot of the nevi’im.

and in the meantime, while he awaits and yearns for all this , he brings parnasah for his family … and he governs himself too.
Does that HAVE TO BE contradictory ???

How so ?
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@hakatan

rav kotler zatsal did support the medina’s needs klapei chuts when speaking to the US administration .

Yadua lakol.

Maskana :
Mere Existence of the medina is not heresy .
.

@hakatan

None of the rabbanim in mainstream Orthodoxy .
None . [maybe some extremists within satmar]

1] Have ever declared wine touched by a fully frum believer in athalta d/g as Yayin Nesech .

2] None have ever declared kidushin formed with the edut of a fully frum believer in athalta d/g as invalid .
None have ever declared subsequent kidushin to the same kalla by a strange man as valid and binding .

All mainstream rabanim would not require a get , even lehumra , from the second mekadesh.

They would ALL , totally invalidate the second kidushin , on the basis of the validity of the first kidushin.
Which is valid only b/c of the edut of our fully frum athalta d/g believer.

3] EVEN IF OUR ATHALTA D/G BELIEVER IS AN EX SATMAR HASID WHO ONCE KNEW THE ‘TRUTH’ AND CHANGED HIS HASHKAFA.

So much for halacha’s acceptance of the so called ‘heresy’ of athalta d/g.

For contrast – lehavdil , if our ed for the first kidushin would be a fully mitsva observant conservative jew , or a fully mitsva observant member of Jews for “j” , it is clear that all Orthodox rabanim would invalidate the first kidushin and need a get from the second one.

Which gives a clear illustration that even those who do talk about ‘heresies’ , do so in a theoretical manner only , but not in practical hahacha manner.
Leharchik et ha’adam …
Etc .

Maskana lehalacha :
Athaltah d/g is not heresy.

@hakatan
The Steipler in Karyane DeIgrata VOL 1 clearly says the belief in the medina as athalta digeoulah ,while a big mistake [!] , is not kfirah.
Al pi ha’emet , It is a descent into a more dark form of galut than previous galuyot .
To experience a galut between our own errant and hateful brothers.
But this mistaken belief of athaltah d/g is definitely not kfira.

Please check inside the sefer.
It is not kfirah .

Black on white.
Its there.
——
None of the rabbanim in mainstream Orthodoxy .
None . [maybe some extremists within satmar]
Have ever declared wine touched by a fully frum believer in athalta d/g as Yayin Nesech .

None have ever declared kidushin formed with the edut of a fully frum believer in athalta d/g as invalid .
None have ever declared subsequent kidushin to the same kalla by a strange man as valid and binding .

All mainstream rabanim would not require a get , even lehumra , from the second mekadesh.

They would ALL , totally invalidate the second kidushin , on the basis of the validity of the first kidushin.
Which is valid only b/c of the edut of our fully frum athalta d/g believer.

EVEN IF OUR ATHALTA D/G BELIEVER IS AN EX SATMAR HASID WHO ONCE KNEW THE ‘TRUTH’ AND CHANGED HIS HASHKAFA.

So much for halacha’s acceptance of the so called ‘heresy’ of athalta d/g.

For contrast – lehavdil , if our ed for the first kidushin would be a fully mitsva observant conservative jew , or a fully mitsva observant member of Jews for “j” , it is clear that all Orthodox rabanim would invalidate the first kidushin and need a get from the second one.

Which gives a clear illustration that even those who do talk about ‘heresies’ , do so in a theoretical manner only , but not in practical hahacha manner.
Leharchik et ha’adam …
Etc .

@hakatan

“….. Establishment of any state before Mashiach comes , is a violation of :

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

Hashem said that you are forsworn not to return to the land (certainly not en masse and with force and politically and against the nations – all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated) until I return you to the land….

[Hakatan to YB]
============================

Cannot understand your logic at all-
If someone sincerely believes that a certain food is permitted by the torah , while it really is prohibited,
DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A VIOLATION OF …
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah , and
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah ???

Obviously those haredim [and many of the national religious] who support the existence and establishment of the medina do not consider this against the torah ??

Read all the posts on this thread , all of them keep claiming that the torah AGREES to Zionism and a medina.
You might argue that they are MISTAKEN in the way that they understand the torah ….
But REJECTION of the torah – man dechar shemei ???

Would you say that in each argument about the real pshat in torah that the mistaken opinion is in violation ikarei emuna 8 and 9 ???

——

Besides that , AVNEI NEZER [end of YD] clearly paskans that establishment of a medina before mashiach is not against halacha.

How can you say that someone who paskans not like DIVREI YOEL is kofer in 8 and 9 of the ikarim ???

Hafleh vafeleh !!! How could you even say that ???

——

And regarding ikar 12 –

How is establishment of medina a denial of mashiach ?? Why can’t they both exist ???

He still yearns for and believes in Mashiach who will restore the Bet hamikdash , metaher klal yisrael and meishiv them bitshuva, take away the lev even mibsarhem ,bring back malhut bet david , take away the nations’ hate of the yehudim , bring the shechina back down to this world and the kiyum of all of the nevu’ot of the nevi’im.

and in the meantime, while he awaits and yearns for all this , he brings parnasah for his family … and he governs himself too.
Does that HAVE TO BE contradictory ???
How so ?

.

@DaMoshe
the only response you can get from CS and her fellow travelers is a choice between jokes , sidesteps, issues being ignored and obvious non answers.
There is nothing else on the menu.

Read through the last pages on this thread and the other [discontinued] threads , on the same topic.
Always the same.

Wonderful people . Special people.

Lousy theology. Non existent logic.
.

ta’anit dibur applies to someone who has something to say and keeps back ,,,,
Seems like there is nothing left to say ?

@katan

@somejew
You are not responding to my Q.
The essence of the Q was whether the establishment and / or existence of a medina before mashiach in theory by non zionists and by shomrei torah . Is that against the 13 ikarim? If yes which one ? And how so ?

@AAQ
It is well established fact that in Europe and the ME before the medina ,the Zionists were a substantial force for abandonment of yiddishkeit
Likewise after the medina .

My question is re the theory of a medina without any repercussions. Is that against ikarei emuna ?
Katan wants us to believe so.

But all he does is quoting others.
He has not once explained which ikar it contradicts and why.

Lets wait and see how long they can hold back .
For the record – there are NUMEROUS unanswered questions here.
Is this going to be the ultimate proof that habad lost ?

@hakatan
you seem to say that rav kotler zatsal did not say to support the medina’s needs klapei chuts when speaking to the US administration ?
Do you really stand by that ?
This is yadua lakol .

@chaim87

The most you can say is – that Zionism used the torah to give itself credibility.
I cant see anywhere in the torah a hiyuv to establish a State.

Zionism , however, was a trojan horse , planted within religious Judaism , through which untold Jews defected from Yiddishkeit.
Many times in a piecemeal fashion, slowly slowly.

So Zionism as a movement had a very detrimental effect on Judaism.
This seems to be agreed all over.
Hence the overwhelming disapproval of the gdolei torah toward the Zionist Movement.

That does not justify stupid and/or extreme shitot like those of hakatan and others which come up on these pages.

@hakatan
Besides your quoting R’E zatsal , I have not heard yet from you what ikar from the 13 ikarei emuna the medina is opposing. Besides the fact that most of its leaders and supporters are heretics.

Waiting for you to specify exactly which ikar are they contravening by establishing a medina before Mashiach’s coming ?
And how that is considered a contravention ?

A clear and detailed answer if possible .
.

@hakatan
Fact is and remains that although the Steipler for sure did not think that the State is ashalta degeoula. Aderaba it is an even bigger galut than before. A galut between our our own erring brothers.
Nevertheless someone stating that it is ashalta deguola , IS NOT AN APIKORUS.
He said that while observing the first three decades of the medina in actual operation.
Wrong – yes. Apikorus – no.
Clear from him that the essence of the medina is NOT kefira.
You cannot use a ma’amar of Rav E’W ztsal, which was said much before the medina’s existence.

Also – Hafets Chaim writes explicitly that a rebbi is allowed to exaggerate the sakana of a bad influence , in order to impress his talmidim to keep their distance from that influence.
So – it could very well be that R’E exaggerated and used inexact terminology to define this Zionist movement which was indisputably a bad influence on his talmidim and on the rest of klal yisrael.
This is not revisionism .
This is cold torah logic.

@hakatan

fyi. Rav Elhanan W zatsal wrote that in his opinion one will not be able to keep the torah and educate one’s children in a future medina.
In practice this has not come to pass.

So – what Rav Wasserman zatsal thought about how the medina would develop , was not the same as how the medina actually turned out to be.

So – R’W zatsals shituf association which was said re the old time zionists might also not pertain to our medina.

RW zatsal did not see our medina.

So – our medina may not be subject to his shituf association, and our medina supporters are not necessarily ovdei a’z beshituf even according RW ztsl.

Rav Aaron Kotler zatsal , someone who was on the same shitah with R’EW zatsal before the War, and did see the medina , advocated that the haredi Jews klapei huts towards the US Government should vigorously defend the Israeli Government in world affairs – notwithstanding the very severe ta’anot he had against them.

RE’W would have been of the same persuasion had he seen the medina as it really was.

Revisit to CS’s answer-
“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”

Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc [CS to YB]
————————
The basic difference according to Tanya between Tsadiq and Beinoni is that although both refrain from ALL AVEROT, the beinoni still has the pull to do bad inside himself , but he strengthens himself and does not transgress at all , whereas the Tsadiq does not have this pull at all anymore , like David Hameleh who killed his yetser with fasting.

So if CS would still have a shred of honesty left, she should here publicly agree that her answer is totally off.
Lets say he did not do any avera – how does this have any relevance to his ‘Tsadiq status’ according to Tanya ???
.

Dear reader
Please contrast CS’s actual responses [without honesty] against those with honesty. Kirchok mizrah mima’arav.

“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”

A tzaddik is totally in line with Hashem’s Ratzon, so his “mistakes” don’t come from yetzer hara but are also directed by Hashem (remember Aharons argument to the malach hamoves?) There is a rare scenario of a tzaddik not advancing in his avodas Hashem, and slipping to do an aveira (like Yochanan Kohen Gadol), but it would be obvious as the Posuk states ba zadon vayavo kalon.

For a regular YB to think HE knows, or anyone that didn’t top The Rebbe in yiras shomayim, knows, that The Rebbe made a mistake, because He knows better, is utter foolishness, but just arrogance and bizui TC. I hope that clarifies.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”

Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. How many tzaddikim of Tanya there are today is a different question which I cannot answer. I keep my nose out for them.

“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”

Not sure what you mean. And even if it is, it answers.

“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”

No one is making you become Chabad. As for me, it’s my honour and privilege.

“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”

See the answer to 1, and you’ll know why.

I will [for CS’s benefit] , attempt to fill in the answers to those simple questions in her place IF SHE WOULD BE HONEST AND HUMBLE ENOUGH to do so.

“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”

No , I cannot because he nowhere addresses this.
I happen to have MY OWN IDEAS about this. But they carry no more weight than that. I am not able to invoke the Tanya’s authority for them without clear proof from his words.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”

No , because there is no such source to be found . Again – I and my fellow travelers happen to have OUR OWN IDEAS about this. But they carry no more weight than that. We are not able to invoke any klal yisrael wide authority for this besides that this happens to be our own subjective opinion.

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. But as this was not the question asked , the answer to the Q is , no. This concept is not widely accepted in klal yisrael outside of hasidi circles.

“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”

I understand what you mean , because I took the time to reflect on this and used my honed intellect to process this Q. To be truthful, I never looked in this direction because I was programmed to repeat everything I am told by certain people without any of my own critical thinking.

“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”

I don’t really know [refer to previous answer] .But my well-honed intellect tells me somehow that if there are other, better explanations to those mamarei hazal , then the authority lent to Tanya’s explanation is reduced to the Tanya himself and not to the Amora’im who said those ma’amarim.

“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”

Because my rebbi taught me in all sorts of ways ,and I internalized this very well, [I actually can feel it in my bones] that my approach and that my rebbi are way more great, and way more emet , in all aspects, than any other approaches , and any other rebeim in the whole world.
He even conditioned me [and my fellow travelers] to continue to believe that ,even in the face of overwhelming evidence and immense rationality clearly pointing to the opposite.
He , therefore , even taught us to “phaiph” on said evidence and rationality.
So, as a result, said evidence and rationality are totally worthless, when it comes to convincing me of anything different to what I have been brainwashed to believe.

So obviously – it the other side who should ‘Go and Learn’ ….
.
Not me …..
.

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted …
————–
That was not the question . The Q was whether the concept of Tsadiq of Tanya is accepted outside of hasidi circles .
And I can tell you.
I know the ‘outside of hasidi circles’ better than a chabad shluha who is not interested in oxen goring people …

And I can confirm – THIS CONCEPT OF THE BA”AL HATANYA IS NOT ACCEPTED outside hasidi circles.

You are simply NOT QUALIFIED to answer this question and your honesty – if there is any left- should compel you to agree.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?” [YB to CS]

Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc [CS to YB]
———–
Your Rebbi was a controversial person. That is well established fact . There are admittedly many rabbanim who held him in high regard [in various stages of his life] but on the other hand many more rabanim are known to have criticized him on a personal level, some even very harshly so.

I think this is an accurate description of your rebbi’s reputation.

So to say axiomatically that your rebbi qualifies as a tsaddiq of tanya …. is doubtful.

To base all your ikarei emuna on that premise is like basing your investment on a 50/50 chance of total loss.

To all undecided readers of these lines I would say – hedge your bets ….

.

YB:
Only once you will be prepared to internalize that this person was a fallible human , prone to mistakes and subject his personal negi’ot, notwithstanding his many talents and mesirut nefesh, only then we will be able to see a possibility to have REAL open and honest, evidence based discussion of all of the above.
Until then we will have to suffice with shallow responses, change of topics, misplaced claims of victimhood and occasional jokes.
But not a serious discussion.
Haval.”

CS:
Apparently you never met a Tzaddik of Tanya. Sounds like the Yanuka and Modzitzer Rebbe may qualify. Go and learn.

——————————————————————-
1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?

2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?

3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?

4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?

5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]

6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???
.

@hakatan

Satmar rav vayechi is daat yachid.
Rov minyan ubinyan of gdolei yisrael disagreed with him on most of his rabid anti zionist views.

Some say that even he himself sometimes overstated his own shitah , because of the hurricane of Zionism after the war.
Now that we are much further from the war and the allure of Zionism lost most of its appeal, we don’t need this extreme rhetoric which was used in those times.

People like you, tend to view the world through this one dimensional Lense, and therefore your picture comes out crooked and unbalanced.

@CS
Not bashing you and your fellow hasidim at all.
Clearly stated that you are all wonderful and special people who try and do good .
Please do not ignore that.

But that’s not a get out of jail card for excessive person [idol/ rebbi] worship, crooked theology and successive public uturns on ikarei emuna AND your collective inability [[due to brainwash and / or lack of honesty] to face up to them.
We cannot ignore that either.

Your crooked theology has [and will further] give fuel to Xtian pretenses to make unsuspecting Jews accept the messiahship [and worse] of their discredited idol.
You [plural] have never taken all those serious issues by the horns.

You either joke about it. Or change topics.
Or pretend that an obvious non answer will do the job.

The issues mentioned in those above lines were extensively mentioned in previous threads.
With only those above mentioned responses as a result.

It seems that the source of your [plural] inability to muster anything more than the above , is your obstinate clinging to one certain persons infallibility.

Only once you will be prepared to internalize that this person was a fallible human , prone to mistakes and subject his personal negi’ot, notwithstanding his many talents and mesirut nefesh, only then we will be able to see a possibility to have REAL open and honest, evidence based discussion of all of the above.
Until then we will have to suffice with shallow responses, change of topics, misplaced claims of victimhood and occasional jokes.
But not a serious discussion.
Haval.

What’s not under discussion here is what good habad people do all around the world.
What is under discussion here is the objectionable and abhorrent belief systems which are drilled into tamimi children and youth, who totally lose the ability to think for themselves anymore.
And used to brainwash unsuspecting baalei tshuva, making them think that this ersatz coffee created from who knows what , is really a delectable drink , far surpassing real coffee.
It is high time that this fraudulent worldview should be exposed for what it really is.
So again – habad consists of truly wonderful people , all nebah victims of mass brainwash and total inability of independent torah based critical thought.