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akuperna – Many critical turning points in history (political, military, financial, etc.) could be described as ‘lucky’. Jews call that ‘Hashgacha’. For that very reason, there is no need to get overexcited about any בשר ודם, although he certainly deserves credit for the good things he did.
ujm – if there is no room on Mount Rushmore they could always carve his face on Mount Fordow… To send a subtle message…
As AAQ pointed out, Jewish New York goes back to the mid-17th century. The first Jews sailed in from Brazil about a decade before Shearith Israel was formally founded. BTW, New York was a major trade and financial hub (and the first capital of the new United States) long before the Erie Canal (which, together with the railroads, made Chicago into a major transportation hub). This is the story of Galus ויחנו ויסעו. Parts of Europe were home to huge Jewish communities for close to a millennium. Bavel/Iraq was the preeminent Jewish community for almost 1500 years straight (from יכניה מלך יהודה until רב האי גאון), and remained a major center of Jewish life for another millennium until the 1950s. Almost nothing remains on location from either of those, although the Talmud Bavli, Rashi, Tosfos, Rishonim and Achronim etc. live on with us forever. Remember that in Germany in the 1920’s Jews had more rights and opportunities than anywhere else in Europe. There were some pesky political extremists with antisemitic views, but who took them seriously?
Square_Root said – How much difference is there, between the meraglim and the Chareidim?
Um, maybe because at the time of the Meraglim Hashem told us through Moshe Rabbeinu to go conquer Eretz Yisroel, and they (for whatever reason) refused? So, unless you claim to have a Navi who commands us in Hashem’s name to all go to Eretz Yisroel (and join the army, or whatever you are trying to equate here), there is no שייכות whatsoever to your comparison. Actually, the Chareidim are the ones who (at least try to) listen to Gedolei Yisroel, whereas the Meraglim did the opposite… You don’t seem to get the idea that this is not a matter of convenience, or taking the easy way out. If it WAS so much easier and more convenient, so let any Chiloni who doesn’t feel like going to the Army join a Yeshiva… Who is stopping them? The very simple answer is as the Chovos Halevavos says – the battle against the Yetzer Hara is longer and more difficult than any physical war.
AAQ – According to the Rambam (and everyone else for that matter), the main job of Moshiach is to bring about a מצב of כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה׳, where all of כלל ישראל will be keeping the Torah perfectly (including in middos and בין אדם לחברו), and even the אומות העולם will behave themselves in a normal and peaceful fashion. That being accomplished, there probably won’t be much need for ‘government’ in the sense we know it today, because basically everyone will be doing what they’re supposed to be doing voluntarily. Why Shmuel Hanavi was not happy with the request for a monarchy is actually not a סתירה to the above at all. They asked for a מלך ככל העמים, i.e. muscle power, Make Israel Great Again, etc. To that Shmuel Hanavi said ה׳ הוא מלככם, i.e. a רוחניות leadership of נביאים (supplemented in the גשמיות department by ad hoc שופטים) is obviously better than that, unless a king and standing army etc. is necessary, which it may not have been just yet at that time. The מלכות of Moshiach will clearly be of the ה׳ הוא מלככם variety, even though Moshiach will hold the title of king and will (בפשטות according to all our מקורות TTBOMK) wield absolute power over all of mankind. At any rate, it isn’t our problem to give suggestions what will be then. The Rambam cautions against trying to predict the details of what will be and how it will be. The Ribbono Shel Olam can take care of that, and rest assured that it will be very very good.
AAQ said – Are we 100% sure that Moschiach will run a monarchy?
It certainly seems that way from all of our sources. Although in a genuine Torah Malchus, the King isn’t above the ‘constitution’ – i.e. the Torah, so Jewish מלכות is ‘constitutional’. Even when Izevel wanted to ‘help’ Achav confiscate the vineyard of Navos, she had to concoct an elaborate plot with false witnesses to give the appearance that he was really חייב מיתה, and Achav couldn’t simply take it by force. And that was by Achav, who obviously wasn’t a big Tzaddik.
AAQ – Rambam says there will be no difference except that Yidden will not be governed by others.
According to Rambam there will be no difference in the physical order of nature (literal וגר זאב עם כבש for example). There will be huge differences in society both within the Jewish people and in the world at large compared to what we are used to. Everyone will have an iPhone without any filter, because there simply will be no more shmutz in the world. When the Sanhedrin will be Mekadesh Rosh Chodesh, or declare an Ibbur year, the Calendar App will automatically update. Moshiach’s Shiur will be broadcast live on all of the telecommunications channels in the world. India and Pakistan and whatever will be left of Russia and Ukraine will be best buddies… Bibi will probably go into voluntary and honorable retirement… All this aside from the Beis Hamikdash with Korbonos and Aliyah Laregel etc. So a lot of stuff is definitely going to change for the better… במהרה בימינו אמן.
AAQ – An interesting question whether every yid nowadays is a tinok shebnishba. Consider posters here. Regardless of which side of every argument you take, you would agree that half or more of the posters are confused in their learning. Even people who went to Jewish schools are not protected from misunderstanding of core concepts…
You are making a crucial point, which is central to the whole concept of לימוד זכות. The Chazon Ish (among many others, and the basis is in Chazal) basically held that the מידת הדין works in proportion to the degree of clarity a person is expected to have given the sum total of his circumstances IN HASHEM’S EYES (not qwerty’s or ujm’s). So, when we had a בית המקדש, people could be executed for some עבירות, even at age 13. Not now. Certain things are מורידין ולא מעלין, but unless someone is trying to physically kill someone ר״ל (or forcibly do certain other issurim), we don’t do that nowadays. We don’t whip people or put them in חרם anymore. So there are actual Halachic ramifications to the reduced מידת הדין. None of this is meant to condone any non-Kosher behavior of any kind or degree, for ourselves or others, but we certainly don’t need to GO LOOKING for people to be מבזה and criticize. ‘Go looking’ as in out of your own daled amos… I also don’t get why people are so excited to yell “there is punishment!” etc. Of course there is. Are all these chevrah so sure of their own tzidkus that they want to ‘wake up’ the מידת הדין ר״ל? Chazal teaches המוסר דין על חברו הוא נידון תחילה. Who needs that? And to do so NOW, when millions of Yidden are in real danger, is just vulgar and insensitive, and according to the Chafetz Chaim (based on the Zohar) downright dangerous. So who needs these debates?
ujm – Do you make the same comments in defense of, when others publicly criticize, Rabbis…
Some of the names on that list I don’t even recognize. You guys don’t get it – I am not INTERESTED in wasting my life klerring chakiros whether this one or that one is right or wrong. Hashem is not going to ask me (or you…) to give a דין וחשבון why I wasn’t מבזה Rabbi So-and-So because of some krumkeit he may-or-may-not have had. I have enough things to fix in my own life. Not because I think I’m a big Tzaddik and holier-than-thou etc., but because I DON’T think I’m such a Tzaddik that I have the privilege to judge others. What is so hard to understand? These silly debates have nothing to do with תוכחה, it’s just a sort of תאוה to win, like a video game. I stumbled into this mess inadvertently. My original message, which has been completely ignored, is that it is very inappropriate, at a time when millions of Yidden are in danger, two dozen killed, and hundreds wounded ר״ל, to spend time judging and criticizing other Yidden. (It’s never a good idea, but to do it now is disgusting.) There are many other Mitzvos for you and me to do before getting around to this (614th…) ‘mitzvah’.
Being מבזה תלמידי חכמים is playing with fire. And ספק דאורייתא לחומרא… And if you are SURE you are right, well, so was Korach… So, good luck…
ujm said – Rav Ahron Feldman shlita made his comments as a public statement, ltoeles harabim. How could you possibly not care?
No one automatically has to be מקבל anything that any given Rov says, ברבים or not, unless he is his Rov/Rebbe. Otherwise, what do you do when two different Rabbonim/Rebbes/Roshei Yeshiva take opposing positions on an issue? But to be מבזה one Rov, because another Rov criticized him, is a very not Kosher thing to do, and כלל ישראל has suffered from this sort of thing for centuries. שנאת חינם doesn’t mean without ANY reason, just that in Hashem’s eyes the reason isn’t good enough… If you and ‘qwerty’ and friends are so sure of yourselves that you are doing a ‘mitzvah’ of ‘rebuking reshaim’ (anonymously and from the comfort of your home, no sweat on your part), then be well and enjoy…
You guys don’t seem to get my point. Yidden are being killed/wounded daily, and you @#$%&! don’t have what to worry about except hocking a chainik about Lubavitch or Zionists or who cares what. Get a life.
qwerty613 – Wishing you a רפואה שלמה. You completely missed my point. Will not comment more on this thread.
ujm wrote – Rav Ahron Feldman shlita called out Manis Friedman as an am haaretz who is spreading heresy. Do you disagree with Rav Ahron Feldman?
As I mentioned before, I really don’t care either way. It isn’t my place to judge any Yid, let alone Roshei Yeshivos or Rabbonim of any kind. If Rav Ahron Feldman holds something Rabbi Manis Friedman said is problematic, then let them meet each other and discuss it privately. Why do I need to be involved?
All of us have more important things to work on in our lives than this. Its just more fun to fix others than to fix ourselves…
qwerty613 – Frankly, I couldn’t care less about ‘winning’ this silly back-and-forth with some anonymous character I know zero about.
If you recall, my first involvement in this thread (which I thought would be my last) was as follows:
The Ribbono Shel Olam already has one Satan whose job it is to accuse people for their aveiros. There is no need to volunteer to be his assistant. That (according to the Zohar, brought by the Chofetz Chaim) is the deeper meaning of the posuk-לא תשא שמע שוא meaning loshon hara, in order that – אל תשת ידך עם רשע not to assist the רשע הידוע, i.e. the Satan – להיות עד חמס, because on his own he is only one עד and by ‘joining’ him there is now a full eidus ח״ו. PLEASE, NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THESE STUPID DEBATES. Do it as a זכות for the millions of Yidden in serious danger now.
I actually typed that in the middle of an intense barrage of ballistic missiles, which resulted in Yidden being killed, although not in my immediate area. That is what caused me to be upset at the inanity and callousness of pointless debates about ‘Zionism’ and rabbis in Minnesota, at a time when.Jewish lives are in danger.
To that I added one line referring to the Chazon Ish, who also spoke about תינוק שנשבה, and the fact that the greater the הסתר פנים, the greater the לימוד זכות, which mitigates מידת הדין. I also pointed out, three times, that since Rabbi Friedman is alive ONE CAN SIMPLY CALL HIM AND ASK HIM HIMSELF what’s the pshat in what he said. For that, I got back ridiculous ad-hominem attacks on myself, and on a Lubavitch rabbi in Minnesota I have no connection with, and probably neither do you, although for some reason, during a week in which over two dozen Jews were murdered, you feel this is a very urgent and important subject to discuss in a forum with only one Lubavitcher, and no one from Minnesota. I made the mistake of trying to engage you in discussion.
The bottom line is – I have no issue with you, and you have no issue with me. If you have an issue with Rabbi Manis Friedman, then CALL HIM AND ASK HIM WHAT HE MEANT, and you can direct your criticism, if necessary, directly to him, באפי מרא. If not, then the whole thing is a waste of time, and possibly multiple איסורים. More than that, I really don’t care. You can consider yourself to have ‘won’ the ‘argument’ or to have ‘saved’ the poor readers from ‘apikorsus’ or whatever you are trying to do here. זאל זיין געזונט. Same goes for ‘ujm’ and all the other tzaddikimlech here who bravely fight the מלחמות השם from the comfort of their home in America. Over here we have more important things to do.
qwerty613 – I wasn’t referring to the similar statement in the Gemara in Succah, but to the Gemara in Eruvin סה עמוד א, and before you jump on me from the מסקנא לכאורה of the סוגיא there, note that no one understands that Gemara to mean anyone is פטור even from תפלה, rather the whole thing is בדרך לימוד זכות, with the average American Jew today with zero background being שיכור כלוט in the רוחניות sense… The idea being that due to the ירידה and הסתר פנים of Galus there is less מידת הדין on those who were already נכשל, making it easier for them to do Teshuva, not חס ושלום to give anyone a היתר to go do aveiros רחמנא ליצלן. That should be obvious to any Frum person, if not for the anti-Lubavitch שנאה that causes some people to look for anything they can find. Let me ask you a question. Do you seriously think that Rabbi Friedman is advocating eating treif of doing other aveiros? Does he eat treif? Does he serve treif in his Chabad House? Or is he working to bring Yidden back to Yiddishkeit, despite whatever background they may have? And the bottom line, which you ignored twice – Don’t take my word for it, ASK HIM WHAT HE MEANT. What is so hard? If you didn’t do that, there isn’t any היתר to call him a kofer ר״ל, or to otherwise write לשון הרע about him. So much מחלוקת could be avoided by simple common sense. It’s hard for me to understand how people who are presumably upstanding Frum Yidden can read through the articles about what is going on here, with graphic pictures and video, and then move over to the ‘Coffee Room’ for the next round of name-calling and שנאת חינם. Do you need to hear the explosions from your house in order to care?
qwerty613 – There’s a video in which he states that because of the long exile…
So call him and ask him what he meant. What is so hard? If you don’t remember the relevant Gemara, google ״יכולני לפטור כל העולם כולו מן הדין״, then look at the Meforshim there. That’s probably what he meant. But – you can ask him.
Both of them , I would suspect are closer and therefore are more knowledgable about the real shita of the SR .
I don’t think for a second that any of the Satmar Rebbes would be in favor of Yidden of any type being killed רחמנא ליצלן, so there must be a different pshat both in the שיטה, and in the episode you mentioned. At any rate, now is not the time for debates and criticism of Yidden.
qwerty613 – I don’t know about what Rabbi Friedman said. To be honest, this is the first I’ve heard of this parshah. He is however alive B”H, and can be reached by email or phone, so you could ask him himself what’s pshat in his statement. If you or someone who reads your posts has a practical נפקא מינה whether you can be סומך on Rabbi Friedman’s ehrlichkeit for something נוגע למעשה, then there may be a תועלת to this discussion, otherwise, not so much. Be that as it may, my comment was mainly directed at the incessant anti-Zionist vs. Zionist debates that fill this ‘coffee room’, between people who don’t even live here. Forgive me if I was harsh, but the sound of ballistic missiles with 1500 pound warheads does wonders for putting priorities in perspective…
qwerty613 – The Chazon Ish (who’s Litvish credentials can’t be challenged) said basically the same thing. Our job is to be Mekarev Yidden, not to judge them. The Ribbono Shel Olam already has one Satan whose job it is to accuse people for their aveiros. There is no need to volunteer to be his assistant. That (according to the Zohar, brought by the Chofetz Chaim) is the deeper meaning of the posuk-לא תשא שמע שוא meaning loshon hara, in order that – אל תשת ידך עם רשע not to assist the רשע הידוע, i.e. the Satan – להיות עד חמס, because on his own he is only one עד and by ‘joining’ him there is now a full eidus ח״ו. PLEASE, NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THESE STUPID DEBATES. Do it as a זכות for the millions of Yidden in serious danger now.
To HaKatan, UJM, and friends. – Perhaps you should now do what the Divrei Yoel זי״ע did during the Six Day War (which he wrote a whole Sefer opposing) and say Tehillim בדמעות שליש for the safety of the millions of Yiddishe Neshamos who reside here. Set aside for now חקירות about Zionists etc. If Haifa and Bnei Brak were hit in the same missile barrage, that should tell you something… Wake up and get the message.
Yankel Berel – I am not in the business of judging other jews , not whether they are destined for olam haba , nor on anything else.
I didn’t think you were, and I agreed with your conclusions on the למעשה level. My only point was just to clarify that krum hashkafa can in fact be a big deal, even without qualifying as ‘halachic heresy’. But אין הכי נמי, it isn’t our business to judge that for others, only for ourselves.
I only attempted to isolate the so called krumkeit of Z . and thereby arrive at a correct valuation of the extent of that krumkeit.
I got that part. To that I responded that contemporary ‘Zionists’, who are almost all of the Religious Zionist sort, encompass a wide range of people. Some of them are very krum, and many maybe not at all. Today’s Israeli ‘kofrim’, who are really גלאט תינוק שנשבה with all the hiddurim, are mostly ‘Progressives’ who are opposed to Zionism. Go try to explain that to some of the chevra who post here…
This went past without any correction from satmar
I suspect that the Divrei Yoel would not be pleased with that מהלך. He is on record, in internal Satmar sources, as having said that the lomdus of the Shalosh Shevuos is not for Goyim, and a Goy who claims to be opposed to ‘Zionism’ is really opposed to Jews… Chuck Schumer and his shtusim notwithstanding, I don’t think anyone from Satmar called Khamenei ימ״ש to tell him not to bomb their mosdos, and I don’t think any of them are saying Tehillim for the success of the Iranians רמחנא ליצלן. (Except for the 20-30 psychopaths who don’t answer to any Rebbe, Satmar or otherwise, and who Baruch Hashem we haven’t heard from in the past few days… Maybe they went to daven by the Mosque of Karbala or the Kever of Haman or someplace else in Iran.)
Menachem – Notice that I specified that Chabad is anti-Zionism, not necessarily anti-Zionist
Exactly.
Chabad treats (today’s) Zionists as any other Jew who is unfortunately confused in derech haTorah
A lot of the quotes bandied around by hotheads looking to be mattir vildeh shtick in the name of ‘fighting Zionism’ date back to a tekufah when many of the Zionists/Maskilim were real hard-core שנה ופירש אפיקורסים. Among people who self-identify as ‘Zionists’, that type doesn’t exist anymore, and neither does the hetter to shame them.
ujm – I’m not a Rov or Dayan, so I don’t have to worry about someone’s Kashrus as an עד bedieved. אין הכי נמי, it’s not a poshut shaila. But טהרת המשפחה is not connected to Zionism. There are couples out there who married when they were holding at a lower level of observance, and later one spouse became more frum, and they do keep טהרת המשפחה. There are also couples where both spouses might not fully keep Shabbos, but they both want to keep טהרת המשפחה. At any rate, these are completely private inyanim, and nobody’s business.
Yankel Berel – I didn’t disagree with your basic line of argument on the למעשה level, my intention was just to point out that it is possible to be very krum, and maybe even a bona-fide אפיקורוס, without technically crossing any Halachic lines (of the type that would make someone פסול לעדות יין נסך etc.) Also, that most aspects of Emuna in general fall under the category of חובות הלבבות which only Hashem can judge. So there is what to think about there and be careful (on all sides of the fence). I agree that a person can be a fine Ehrilcher Yid who also happens to believe in building settlements down the road from Shechem, and that doesn’t make him an אפיקורוס, probably not even according to the Satmar Rebbe. The type of Zionism that ‘somejew’ and others are thinking of pretty much no longer exists. I also posted here more than once that it is possible to be a Satmar Chossid with 100% impeccable anti-Zionist credentials, and still help build Jewish life in Eretz Yisroel. (Something many such people actually do.) Someone who starts a conversation among Yidden by asking for suggestions on what would be the best way to do something that בלי שום ספק would jeopardize millions of Jewish lives is not Satmar, he’s stam a troll or a ‘pyromaniac’. If a Goy would write the same thing he would clearly be an antisemite.
AAQ – The Lubavitcher Rebbe actually made that exact point using the Theory of Relativity. He also noted how quantum mechanics demolished the notion of determinism, which was the bedrock of science for centuries. Newton’s ‘Laws’, according to modern physics, despite being an accurate way of predicting WHAT USUALLY happens, are not the real REASON WHY they happen. Similar to how we believe that each individual outcome is the result of Hashgacha Pratis, although on the macro level everything seems to more or less follow deterministic ‘laws of nature’.
AAQ – Maybe there is a moment now, again, to try to join together, whether in the army or in Tehilim.
All noise to the contrary notwithstanding, on the person-to-person grassroots level, there is much more אחדות here than you may think. We hope to Hashem אך טוב לישראל ברוחניות ובגשמיות.
AAQ – Making this into a ‘crisis’ is all about the political שאר ירקות and nothing else. The Army doesn’t need more canon fodder or potato peelers. The truth is, there are voices within the Army for years already pushing for a smaller and better trained army, as opposed to automatically drafting every 18 year old kid as a matter of principle. Just look at a picture of Gilad Shalit. Who was the idiot who sent that kid to active duty in Gaza? The truth is, Israel doesn’t need ALL the kids, but they do need more than a volunteer enlistment program could provide. But who’s to say who is free to go? So they are stuck with a general conscription law they themselves aren’t always thrilled with, because every new recruit costs them money and resources, but the ROI in the long term isn’t always worth it. They much prefer to invest in pilots and commandos, or advanced technology. What happens is that the Army itself looks to get rid of potential recruits they suspect will be a headache for them, and there are many ways to do that (with or without laws on the books) as everyone here knows on both sides… ודי למבין So don’t hold your breath waiting to see 10K new Chareidi recruits anytime soon…
Yankel Berel said – The fact is that one could be a bona fide religious zionist nowadays without any agadic heresy either.
Agree with you 100%, although it may depend on the specific flavor of ‘Dati Leumi’ in question. The DL world itself is a broad and colorful spectrum from people who are Chareidi plus in their lifestyle and עבודת השם, but also believe that building settlements on the hills of Shomron will be מקרב the גאולה, to people like Naftali Bennett, who I wouldn’t take לכתחילה as an עד for anything, but not because of the ‘Zionist’ stuff…
However, it is also perfectly possible for someone to be fully observant of Orthodox Judaism, at least outwardly, and still be an אפיקורוס, only based on his krum beliefs or lack thereof. Just to give an easy example: One of the 13 Ikkarim is belief in תחיית המתים. There is no נפקא מינה in day-to-day behavior or observance of other areas of Halacha directly connected to that belief. One could even theoretically believe in שכר ועונש and עולם הבא (in some form other than what our Mesorah says), yet לכל הדעות failure to believe in this particular doctrine (which you may call אגדתא), clearly triggers Halachic consequences and makes a person a bona-fide אפיקורוס who is פסול לעדות etc. There is precedent in Poskim (at least לכתחילה) to avoid taking as an עד someone who clearly denies or is מזלזל in beliefs, minhagim, or aspects of the Mesorah that have been accepted by כלל ישראל, even if he doesn’t technically deny any of the 13 Ikkarim or violate any Halacha.
Menachem Shmei – Someone from Lubavitch put out an entire Sefer several years ago called יהדות ללא פשרות, collected from all of the works of the last Rebbe זי״ע. There is a long chapter on his opposition to Zionism, both the theory and the practice. He was also the most formidable force battling the infamous מיהו יהודי law, during which time he called out many Israeli politicians, including religious ones, in no uncertain terms. (I’m sure you are well aware of this as a Lubavitcher, just mentioning it here for the benefit of the others.) On the other hand, the Rebbe engaged in positive dialog with many Israeli leaders, including some very secular ones, JUST LIKE HE DID WITH EVERYONE ELSE WHO WAS INTERESTED IN DOING SO, and he found ways to their hearts באשר הוא שם, again like he did with everyone. In other words, he totally rejected their השקפה, and in practice he sometimes even fought them far more than ‘anti-Zionists’ ever did, yet he was able to relate to them as people, and fellow Yidden, and to whatever extent possible, to ignite their Pintele Yid. This is something many people need to learn from. Even someone who is not בר הכי with ‘plaitzes’ of the Lubavitcher Rebbe to engage in dialog with people who have krum hashkafos or behavior, doesn’t have to write them off as Yidden or imagine scenarios of how they will die or be ‘dismantled’ ר״ל. Remind me which of the Rebbes said that the way to chase away darkness isn’t with sticks, but with light. (I remember with certainty that the quote comes from Chabad, but I forgot which Rebbe.) That is the real way to defeat ‘Zionism’ (which doesn’t really exist any more in its original form, but for argument’s sake I use the term to refer to the entire gamut of secular krumkeit in Israel.)
5TResident – Of course, you live comfortably under the blanket of security of the Five Towns, while complaining about the way we deal with the complex situation here. There is a lot more going on here on all sides than you will ever see on YWN, so it is disingenuous to just throw out cheap complaints. The Poskim, Roshei Yeshivos, Rebbes, etc., who live here and dedicate their lives to helping and guiding Yidden here, are not ‘complaining’. They are dealing with very real problems that even the (more serious end of the) Dati-Leumi do not deny exist. Are you aware, for example, that there is a movement of Dati-Leumi women lobbying to protect their husbands (who serve in active combat units) from ‘gender integration issues’ in the Army ודי למבין…
On a practical level, the Army needs the Chareidim like a hole in their head. On the Secular side, this is all about Right versus Left, Supreme Court versus elected government, Only Bibi versus Anything Other Than Bibi, Yuli Edelstein trying to send his boss into retirement and become the next boss, Bennett taking another shot at the Piñata and not caring what will happen the day after, and other שאר ירקות that are very relevant to the security needs of Israel. There are plenty of Tzfonbonim who go to college in Europe instead of going to the Army, or else do a short stint in an Army office or media outlet. On the Chareidi (and a growing portion of the Chardali) side, this is primarily about והיה מחניך קדוש, which is a very serious issue that can potentially be יהרג ואל יעבור, (for girls, literally יהרג ואל יעבור, as paskened by the חזון איש). If you don’t know what a ‘Tzfonboni’ or a ‘Chardali’ is, then you may want to educate yourself more about the nuances of Israeli society before formulating your opinions.
SQUARE_ROOT – So come live here yourself, big talker… It’s somewhere between amusing and annoying for Yidden who actually live here to watch the nonsensical give-and-take between the armchair Zionists and anti-Zionists sitting thousands of miles away…
HaKatan – He wrote that the Zionists could go to the gentiles and tell them to take over without hurting any Jews CH”V, and the gentiles would figure out a way.
If he said that at all, as a לו יצוייר, I don’t know. תכלית למעשה he refused to participate in any demonstration or other activity where Arabs or other non-Jewish agitators would be involved. This fact is solidly documented. The geopolitical map has changed dramatically since 1948 (when there may well have been better alternatives, but that is a totally moot point now). Which ‘Gentiles’ would you suggest contacting now? The British aren’t interested in coming back. America has no desire or legal framework to take over a foreign country, despite Trump’s meshigassen about Canada and Greenland. The UN of course have proven themselves as being very pro-Jewish and effective peacekeepers… Maybe offer Erdogan a head start on rebuilding the Ottoman Empire? Or offer ‘Haman’ a new Persian-Iranian Empire? Seriously, get real. The Divrei Yoel זצוק״ל was not in favor of mass murder of Yidden רחמנא ליצלן. Try to get the idea.
Yankel Berel – WRT your distinction between ‘Halachic’ heresy vs. ‘Aggadic’ heresy.
I agree with you in principle that in order for heresy to trigger Halachic consequences in a Beis Din Shel Matah there must be a crossing of some sort of threshold that can be measured and assessed by human judgement, just like anything else subject to דין של מטה. That doesn’t mean that a person who has krum hashkafos in Hashem’s eyes will not be subject to דין של מעלה, potentially even to the point of losing Olam Haba ח״ו. In other words, the fact that something may be a דבר המסור ללב, doesn’t necessarily make it less WRONG, just not ENFORCEABLE. The last perek of Sanhedrin discusses various attitudes that brand one as an אפיקורוס, including ׳מאי אהני לן רבנן׳, something that shows up in the comments section on this web site almost every day… If one uses the cop-out of calling ‘Aggadita’, then THERE IS NO HALACHIC DEFINITION OF אפיקורוס ANYWHERE ELSE IN ש״ס. This is עד כדי כך, that there are people out there who claim openly as if Judaism doesn’t have anything to say about ‘belief’, only ‘actions’ ח״ו, which I assume you agree is itself clearly אפיקורסות (even to the point of יין נסך etc.) בקיצור, if one ח״ו writes off אגדתא as not binding להלכה, then the Gemara doesn’t tell us ANYTHING binding להלכה about what to believe, which is absurd. As it is, the רמב״ם derived most of the 13 Ikkarim from that Gemara, and codifies them in his introduction to that פרק. He also codified הלכות יסודי התורה and הלכות דיעות based almost entirely on Aggadita. So, whether anyone likes it or not, Aggadita CAN AND MUST in fact also be binding למעשה. The question then becomes – תכלית למעשה how do we know what, when, and to what extent? Here there is much gray area and דברים המסורים ללב, and it is specifically in this area that דעת תורה becomes essential. HOWEVER – seeing as we don’t have a recognized Sanhedrin for כלל ישראל, no particular group can impose its שיטות in דברים המסורים ללב on any other group, except to the extent that all normative Orthodox Jewish traditions agree. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a big deal what you believe, it is a HUGE deal, because it permeates all aspects of our relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu, which is the Tachlis of life itself.
Disclaimer – I am not a Satmar Chossid, although I greatly respect the Divrei Yoel as a heiligier tzaddik and gaon, and I have learned many of his works.
I’m not sure what the point is to argue over and over about the Vayoel Moshe, and who did or didn’t accept it. This thread started as a discussion about ‘dismantling’ the State of Israel through some sort of process OTHER THAN Divine intervention. That is something that the Satmar Rebbe NEVER EVER advocated. It also goes against his whole thesis that the national destiny of Klal Yisroel is outside the realm of Hishtadlus. (In other words, כחי ועוצם ידי is treif, even when applied AGAINST Zionism ודו״ק.) It is well known, and documented in all of the biographies of the Satmar Rebbe, as well as attested to by many living witnesses, that he REFUSED to participate in any demonstration against the Israeli government if Arabs would also be there. He also built NEW neighborhoods and Mosdos IN ISRAEL, and his followers continue to do so. A person can be 100% Satmar and anti-Zionist as can be, and still not want to do (or even theoretically believe in doing) any פעולה גשמית to ‘dismantle’ Israel. So מהיכא תיתי that anyone can appoint himself to speak in the name of the Vayoel Moshe about ‘dismantling’ the state and endangering the lives of MILLIONS OF YIDDEN?! As if that was even a realistic possibility, instead of pure narishkeit and ביטול זמן, aside from showing a TOTAL lack of basic Middos and Sechel. Just cut out the nonsense and go back to doing or saying something worthwhile that has some תועלת in real life.
HaKatan said – Regardless, Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was “responsible for all the tuma in America”.
When and where and in front of whom did Rav Aharon Kotler make that statement? There was a lot of טומאה going on in (Jewish) America going back almost a century before Rav Soloveitchik even arrived there. Even with regard to RIETS/YU itself, the place was what it was decades before Rav Soloveitchik got there. If you know a little bit about what was going on in America before Reb Aharon (and the Satmar Rebbe and other Gedolim) arrived, YU was א האלבע צרה by comparison… I suspect that this ‘statement’ is either not accurate or taken way out of context.
Yankel Berel – “the whole of vayoel moshe is a compendium of mostly aggadic materiel used to leharchik et ha’adam min haresha’im.”
Actually, Vayoel Moshe is mostly focused on Halacha, specifically the שלש שבועות and their ramifications/limitations as הלכה למעשה citing Rishonim and Poskim, whether Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is a Mitzvah/Chiyuv/optional בזמן הזה, and whether it is desirable or even permissible to speak in לשון הקודש for secular matters. It doesn’t deal with the issue of התחברות לרשעים as a primary topic. You may be thinking of the multi-volume דברי יואל which is mostly דרשות and אגדתא. But none of this has any שייכות to the idiotic ‘question’ that started this thread. The Satmar Rebbe zt”l never ever suggested doing anything למעשה to bring about the end of the State, other than davening for the real Geulah. There are significant communities of Satmar Chassidim, and many others who share all or some of their ideology, right here in Eretz Yisroel. Satmar donors from America donate lavishly to mosdos who share their שיטה, and help them to build new communities here. So all of these fine Yidden, who believe strongly in the ויואל משה as literally הלכה למעשה, do not see any סתירה to living here and BUILDING NEW mosdos/kehillos here, and certainly are not in favor of destroying or dismantling anything here. All of the incendiary posts by HaKatan, ujm, somejewiknow, etc., basically calling for the mass murder of millions of Yidden, DO NOT have any שייכות to the שיטה of the Divrei Yoel. It is well known that the Satmar
Rebbe refused to participate in any demonstrations where Arabs would also be demonstrating – “our fight is not their fight, our reasons are not their reasons…” Someone who doesn’t know/understand this חילוק doesn’t have the right to speak in the name of Satmar.Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan was a fascinating and very special Yid, who already was a one-man revolution both in Kiruv, and in making profound Torah ideas accessible in English, before his life was tragically cut short. He was also very much into the works of Rebbe Nachman of Breslev, and was surely aware of that מסורה when he wrote his books. (I believe he may even bring the quote by name somewhere in his many ספרים.)
לכאורה the abbreviation מלכות ב״ד is short for מלכות בית דוד, not בית דין as you seem to translate it. That לכאורה would be a kvetch to try to apply it to the present מצב… The Malbim passed away in 1879, but Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan passed away in 1983, when one wouldn’t need רוח הקודש to accurately make such a statement… There is a tradition handed down from Rebbe Nachman of Breslev, who passed away in 1810, that there will be a partial return of a large portion of כלל ישראל to ארץ ישראל before משיח, alluded to in the פסוק (Yeshayahu 56, 8) – נאם ה׳ אלקים מקבץ נדחי ישראל עוד אקבץ עליו לנקבציו – Hashem will further gather together (the Jewish People) to those (already) gathered.
There was a time when there was simply almost nothing else in America. So whoever was born in America, or had to flee to America (and needed a visa affidavit with a job offer) ended up there, regardless of whether they agreed with every aspect of their hashkafah. At that time, prior to Bernard Revel, RIETS was closer to being a regular Yeshiva. It would be inaccurate to say they ‘separated’ from the Yeshivish Velt, because they were לכתחילה catering to an American audience at a time when the mainstream Yeshiva world was still located in Europe. Post WWII, when thousands of survivors arrived in the US, regular Litvish Yeshivos were also rebuilt in America in a somewhat modified form, and RIETS itself remained more or less what it was beforehand. Once other options were available, parents and bochurim could choose where to go. It’s not like RIETS was once an integral part of the European Yeshiva Velt and then split off and went its own way…
ZSK- “Charedim call me a Zionist, the RZ public considers me very Charedi-leaning.”
I’ve noticed a lot of American expats feel that way. We don’t fit exactly into the various boxes… Maybe that’s why we are capable of seeing that the home-grown Israelis also don’t necessarily fit exactly into the boxes they sometimes make for themselves…
somejewiknow said – “those who live under the zionists are less entitled to give their opinion about zionism as they are more noegea b’duvar”
I guess so, if they still existed. Those who are clueless about what is really going on here aren’t נוגע בדבר. In fact, they aren’t even נוגע altogether…
HaKatan said – “After 2,000 years of galus, your children have been battered by these wicked Zionists for over a century, who have now intentionally destroyed/shmaded at least three generations of Jews, numbering in the millions, not to mention the physical destruction these wicked heretics caused during the Holocaust”
To a large extent true. But those guys are long since dead. The present generation of ערב רב no longer believes in Zionism. In fact, they despise Religious Zionists, and some of them are more critical of the Army than any sane Chareidi. A good case could be made that Yair Golan and some of his buddies are genuine Erev Rav material, ditto the AG, most of the Bagatz, and many members of the Israeli ‘MSM’. None of those people are ‘Zionists’ in the classical sense, and some are openly anti-Zionist. I don’t even think YOU would be so crazy as to claim IDF soldiers kill babies for fun, but he did.
For those unfamiliar with the concept, the ספרים הקדושים, going back long before Zionism (and Reform/Haskalah/etc.) started, refer to the idea that the ערב רב from חומש still exist (at least on the conceptual/spiritual level, not necessarily biological descendants) as the רשעים מסיתים ומדיחים in each generation, and that they will be particularly active in the תקופה of אחרית הימים before Moshiach comes. The Vilna Gaon in ספר אבן שלמה describes five different categories of Erev Rav, and how to identify them… Some of the descriptions are eerily familiar. For example, one of the signs is people who are stingy to the point of cruelty towards worthy עניים, particularly תלמידי חכמים, but they gladly give generously to גויים and רשעים. (Any connection with the Supreme Court’s position WRT, let’s say, daycare for Chareidi toddlers on one hand, versus ‘humanitarian aid’ for Hamas on the other, is the responsibility of the reader…)
To help you understand, since you seem to be confused – the VAST MAJORITY of Israelis are מאמינים MUCH MORE than secular Jews in America (for example). More than 50% of the Jewish population here are ספרדים, who were and are close to אמונה and tradition, and almost NEVER ‘anti’. Even among the secular אשכנזים, there are far more who are at least ‘sympatish’ than you think. A Yiddishe Neshoma is a powerful thing, don’t underestimate it…
That being said, there was and is a very vocal minority, who may very well be connected ברוחניות to the aforementioned ‘Erev Rav’, who constantly agitate against Yiddishkeit, in favor of כל תועבות שבעולם, and for מחלוקת and hate between the different groups of Yidden who live here. They used to do this in the name of Zionism and Socialism, but those ideas went out of style. Now they just ape the ‘Progressive’ דור המבול culture and ideology (mostly) coming out of America. In one of their latest spins, they named their preferred political party the ‘Democrats’… As if that’s what we need here…
I have more important things to do with my time than to explain to you all of the intricacies of what goes on in ארץ ישראל today, and who’s on first and who’s in left field… The bottom line is – the majority of Yidden here are much closer to Yiddishkeit than you think. Many of them are descendants of the VICTIMS of the old Zionists (i.e. ספרדים and child Holocaust survivors who were taken from Yiddishkeit by force, as is well documented.) Yelling and screaming about what happened decades ago is not what will be מקרב them. If you are serious about fighting the after-effects of the old Zionists, and the current generation of ‘Erev Rav’ wannabes, IMHO the best way to do so is to be מקרב Yidden, or to help those who do.
Just a little anecdote. Shortly after the terrible שמחת תורה pogrom last year, I was in a Seforim/Judaica store near where I live (in an area with a mixed population). Someone came to buy a pair of ציצית. The seller told him that he’s out of tzitzis, and so are all of the tzitzis producers IN ALL OF ISRAEL, because someone started a campaign to convince soldiers going in to Gaza to take tzitzis to wear as a זכות, and it became so popular that ALL THE MANUFACTURERS IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY couldn’t keep up… You may recall the pictures on this site of Yeshiva Bochurim tying tzitzis for soldiers last year. It took several weeks until the stores could be restocked…
Evalimoshavlo said – “As was written in different thread, the name Zionists was hijacked, true identity theft!
The word zionist needs to be redefined and brought back home into the fold.
A zionist is someone who loves Tzion, someone who cares about what happens in EY and tries to improve whatever needs to be improved.”I understand what you are trying to say, but I don’t think you need to use the word ‘Zionist’ in order to say it. Love of Tziyon goes back way before ‘Zionism’, like back to Avraham Avinu… Herzl שר״י was not a lover of Tziyon. He famously was in favor of building a (Goyish) Jewish State in Uganda. Some good people explained to him that the Jewish people already have a homeland they yearn to return to, and that only by hijacking that yearning would his (אפיקורסות) idea gain any traction with traditional Jews, who were still the majority at that time. On the other hand, there were and are many opponents of ‘Zionism’ who were/are ardent lovers of Tziyon, care very much about what happens here, and do things to improve whatever needs to be improved. All of us can agree to disagree on WHAT exactly needs to be done, but we can also agree that the term ‘Zionism’ isn’t necessarily part of the equation.
I saw written years ago that Reb Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik (of RIETS), in his Hesped for his uncle Reb Velvel Soloveitchik (of Brisk/Yerushalayim), pointed out that Reb Velvel’s strong and unwavering opposition to Zionism was never a סתירה to his great love of ארץ ישראל and it’s people… He also noted the irony that the ‘Zionist’ branch of the family resided in חוץ לארץ, and the ‘anti-Zionist’ branch all ended up living in Israel…
Evalemoshavlo – May they come because they want to be near their great Father
Agreed. That is the real reason, and the only reason. You don’t need to be Zionist to believe in that (or practice it למעשה).
Yankel Berel – He is using divrei mussar re hitbadlut me resha’im to be halacha lema’aseh mafkir damam shel yisrael. His thick skull cannot grasp the difference between those two totally different worlds.
Not living here makes it way easier for him to confuse those two concepts, and to somehow see everyone here as either ‘Zionist’ or ‘anti-Zionist’.
Square_Root – The anti-Zionist Chareidi Rabbis also opposed Jews moving to America.
An old red herring. Pre WWI, when it was easier to immigrate to the USA, the matzav in most parts of Jewish Europe wasn’t as bad. Post WWI there were already quotas and restrictions. Moving to Eretz Yisroel under the Turks and then under the White Paper policy was not poshut even if you wanted to. My Elter Zaydie moved to America with the blessing of Reb Boruch Gorlitzer who was strongly opposed to.Zionism… (And who, together with his brothers, did much to help the Yishuv in Eretz Yisroel also… History is complicated…)
SQUARE_ROOT – With all due disrespect for the fake neo-NK, if you keep up your ‘Every member of the (bogus) NK is ___’ for another few lines, you will have more ‘every member’ than they have members… They are a few dozen (at most) deranged attention seekers. That’s all. They are protesting against a straw-man/boogeyman that no longer exists, and the more normal Yidden yell at them, the bigger an adrenaline high they get.
Chaim_Baruch – I reside in Israel for close to 30 years, although I would describe myself as ‘non-Zionist’ more than ‘anti-Zionist’. If Zionism in its original form still existed, then I would be anti-Zionist… I am opposed to Yidden not knowing about Yiddishkeit, something the dead Zionists are major shareholders in (but not exclusive shareholders.) The remedy for that is יפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה, not yelling and screaming.
ZSK – I would go further and say that those who are actually familiar with the matzav here understand that the entirety of Israeli society (Chareidi, DL, Mesorti, and Secular) is nuanced and multi-layered. The most radical opponents of classical Zionist ideology today are probably the Meretz/One-State-Solution/IDF=baby-killers types. I doubt that ‘ujm’ knows anything about them, and if he would see them, he would probably think they are big Zionists because they are big atheists… He probably doesn’t know the difference between Noam Chomsky and Bibi Netanyahu… Or between ‘Mamlachti’ DL and ‘Har HaMor’ or ‘Noar G’vaot’… Or even the nuances of local intra-Chareidi politics…
ujm – Jews in London, NY, etc. are entitled to whatever opinion they want on any subject. There is a separate question of how seriously to take your opinion… That depends (among other things) on how familiar you are with the subject matter, and how seriously you take your own opinions (by acting on them in a meaningful way.) On this topic, that is something greatly affected by whether or not you live here. If you think that today’s ‘Zionists’ are located in Tel Aviv and Haifa, that shows how much you know about the demographics and society of ארץ ישראל today… That will affect how seriously people take your opinions…
Coffee Addict – Is she someone who died “על קידוש ה׳”?
There is a חקירה (IIRC already among the Rishonim), whether someone like this who was killed because she was Jewish, but not offered a choice of יהרג ואל יעבור, is considered to have died על קידוש השם. There are מקורות that she is, but on a lower level. What happened to her is probably a very big תיקון for her נשמה. At any rate, this is only relevant in the בית דין של מעלה, and there they are capable of figuring that out…
ujm said – “Miss Milgrim was a member of the local Reform Temple in her hometown in Kansas.”
So ממה נפשך. If she was Jewish according to Halacha, so she was a תינוקת שנשבה למהדרין מן המהדרין לכל הדעות, because she didn’t even grow up in a place where she was likely to encounter Orthodox Jews of any kind. If she wasn’t Jewish כהלכה then she wasn’t doing anything wrong by planning to marry a non-Jew… At any rate, as has been pointed out, the filthy רוצח who killed them didn’t check their יחוס first. If your point is that the secular Israeli State and its overseas agencies spread confusion on the subject of מי הוא יהודי, then yes, that is a big problem. But people with basic human sensitivity understand that now is not the time to talk about this issue.
“At the Israeli embassy in Washington, Miss Milgrim was assigned to work with homosexual groups and women’s organizations, and she was in charge of outreach to progressive and social justice-oriented groups.”
If you learned Maseches Sanhedrin and Maseches Makkos you would know that even someone who actually did חיובי מיתה במזיד, and was executed by בית דין, we say כיון שלקה הרי הוא כאחיך. If you have complaints or ideas about where her נשמה is going, you have to take that up with the בית דין של מעלה, but I don’t recommend being in a hurry to visit their office… Honestly, I don’t know if you and I are better in Hashem’s eyes than her. She really and truly didn’t know better. In her limited understanding of Judaism, she probably thought that working at the Israeli Embassy was a very wonderful Jewish thing to do. Is it sad that innocent נשמות are confused by all kinds of meshigasen, including but not limited to those promoted by the Israeli Government? Yes, very much so. If that bothers you, (and it should), so either engage in קירוב רחוקים or donate to those who do… You’d be surprised that right here in ארץ ישראל you can find many fine Kosher anti-Zionist Yidden who are big into being מקרב our brothers and sisters, and are capable of communicating with them in a way they can appreciate. If you can’t do that, then at least don’t do damage.
The murderer was looking for Yidden. So he hit a Christian by mistake. What happens to her Neshama and his whatever is the Ribbono Shel Olam’s business. בפשטות she was a תינוק שנשבה and was murdered for being a Yid. Do you think for a second that if I you and I were there that he wouldn’t have shot us? Now, knowing you, before you start telling me he was looking to kill ‘Zionists’… A certain non-Jewish politician once came to visit the דברי יואל zt”l. Not knowing his audience better, he started giving a whole shmuez how he’s so pro-Israel etc… The askonim in the room kept quiet, but were obviously uncomfortable… After he left, the Rebbe told them “A Goy doesn’t know the sugyah of שלש שבועות and all the things Jewishly wrong with Zionism… When he says he likes Israel, he means to say he likes Yidden. And when a Goy says he hates Israel he means he hates Yidden… So stop trying/pretending to be more ‘Satmar’ than the דברי יואל himself…
AAQ – “This is again picturing the other side as the extreme”
Please read carefully: To make a ‘binary choice’ between a GOYISH VELT that increasingly brooks no compromise on THEIR ‘hashkafah’, and some sort of real Torah hashkafah. Stretching that term as wide as possible still can’t accommodate LGBTQXYZ_who_knows_what_next+++, and not accommodating the flavor-of-the-month will get you ‘cancelled’ professionally and academically.
I.e. – When I said ‘Goyish Velt’ I meant literal ‘Goyim’, not ח״ו any Jew of any sort. And yes, the ‘goyish velt’ REALLY IS extreme. If you are aware of what is going on today on college campuses etc. it is EXTREME. My only point (which I spelled out multiple times already) was that in the eyes of today’s Progressive Post-Modern 400 gender Goyish velt, even YU are ultra-right-wing extremists, no less than me (and probably you, for that matter…) IMHO, this is going in a direction that will eventually leave the more serious MO “Chareidi by default”. Sort of ‘we didn’t leave Modernity, Modernity left us’…
Just nudge your community to accept modernity to the extent R Twersky did.
Rav Twersky himself, in his books, pointed out that in his day college campuses were very different than what they have become today (he wrote that about 30 years ago…) In his day, the main challenge was from Kefirah, and he avoided that by going to a Catholic college IIRC… Nowadays (again, writing in the mid 90s…) the biggest issue on campus is פריצות, which is a more difficult challenge for most people. It’s true that since he wrote that new options have opened geared specifically for observant Jews, but those who insist on only the most prestigious degree from a regular university cannot hang their hat on Rav Twersky… He also never self-identified as ‘Modern’ in terms of מדע לשמה… He knew and used whatever he needed to do his job and help people, even if that was a lot, and that’s it… Everything else about his lifestyle, family, חינוך of his own children, etc. was 100% heimish.
and respect others that do – and let’s talk then.
I mentioned previously my respect for Reb Yoshe Ber z”l and some of his talmidim… I am aware of his hashkafah, and I don’t see that as an automatic סתירה to respect. I do wonder what his take would be on Post-Modernism and where it’s going today, as well as this idea of mine about MO eventually facing a crossroads that will force them to define who they really are. He probably would write something with a title like “Halachic Man and the Rupture of Modernity in a Post-Modern World”…
Never forget – everyone here has at least 613 things that we all can agree on… And we will all celebrate that in a week and a half from now…
Uncle Ben – אין הכי נמי, for the one-in-many-thousands of people born with PHYSICALLY ambiguous features there are Halachic guidelines what to do… That is not the same as MENTALLY disturbed people making up their gender as they go along, and imposing on the rest of the world to go along with them…
AAQ – “But if we are talking of the essence – using chochma, I don’t think academic craziness should be of concern – as long as you know how to filter information out (or someone can do it for you)”
I think we agree in practice, but we define the term ‘Modern’ somewhat differently. “Using chochma” per se does not make one ‘modern’. There are plenty of professionals etc. who fully identify as Chareidi. What makes one ‘Modern’ (at least YU style) is seeing secular knowledge as an IDEAL – לשמה. This also extends to secular knowledge which isn’t simply dry technical know-how, i.e. literature, philosophy, ‘humanities’, etc. which contain VALUES. There is a world of difference between the two approaches. Most important, those who see secular knowledge and philosophy etc. as an ideal also tend to seek approval from (and ape) the secular world that they admire… How many MO do you know study (for example) Hindu literature and try to ‘reconcile’ Torah with that? So why is Western philosophy inherently any better? At least the Hindus believe SOMETHING created the Universe…
My point was, Western philosophy and ‘hashkafah’ is deteriorating at a pace that IMHO will soon leave no room for a sincere Yid of any flavor to IDENTIFY WITH AND ADMIRE it, or even BE ACCEPTED by it in anything more than a basic business-like fashion. In other words, MO who are ehrlich בין אדם למקום will eventually find themselves sort of Chareidim by default…
somejewiknow – The Ramban (parshas ki savo) says the Divine promise of protection for the Jewish people is specifically for the Jews in chitz l’uretz – making Eretz Yisroel the most dangerous place for Jews.
Not exactly… The Ramban only says there that once the Jewish people go into Galus in חוץ לארץ (which we did…), then the גזרה of חורבן ends, and the promise of לא מאסתים ולא געלתים לכלותם kicks in.
AAQ – “This starts with the discussion that Avos observed mitzvos but Yaakov married 2 sisters and made matzevah, Amram married his aunt …”
That was before Kabbolas HaTorah… Which happened at Har Sinai in חוץ לארץ…
Breishis 26:5
For the Commandments are the ordinance of the G-d of the land, even though we have been charged with personal duties in all places. Our Rabbis have already alluded to this secret, and I will yet call your attention to it with the help of G-d.‘Personal duties’ includes כל התורה כולה except for מצוות התלויות בארץ and קרבנות… The secret is that even ‘personal duties’ are imbued with an enhanced level of Kedushah when done in Eretz Yisroel.
Vaikra 18:25
These [mitzvot] are not compulsory in the Exile with the exception of personal obligations, such as tefilin and mezuzot.‘Such as’ again includes everything in the שולחן ערוך. The Ramban didn’t start a different religion חס ושלום.
And the Sages explain that this is so in order that [mitzvot] will not be novel to us upon our return to the Land of Israel, because the primary observance of all of the mitzvot [can be performed by] those living in G-d’s land.
‘Primary’ as in special level of שלמות הקדושה previously mentioned. When משיח will come we will be זוכה to do the mitzvos on such a high level of Kedusha and Deveykus that everything we did in גלות will pale in comparison. However, there is a bigger מעלה in Hashem’s eyes, so to speak, to the mitzvos we do now, because the nisyonos are so much bigger…
This thread is still going?
1. It’s very easy to be a Zionist or an anti-Zionist from the comfort of your home in America…
2. ‘Secular Zionism’ (originally known as ‘Auto-Emancipation’ before Herzl ימ״ש found out that ‘Zion’ existed…) is the belief that Jews can be the ‘masters of their own destiny’ and solve their problems (especially antisemitism) by establishing their own state (anywhere, no connection to ארץ ישראל). That, according to them, would result in the Goyim accepting the independent Jewish State as an equal member of the community of nations i.e. ככל הגויים בית ישראל. That is straight כפירות ואפיקורסות גמורה לכל הדעות.
3. There was and is a separate idea of hishtadlus to speed up the Geulah, particularly through יישוב ארץ ישראל, (which as a mitzvah in itself may or may not apply today altogether). This idea of speeding up the Geulah through hishtadlus, but not denying that only Hashem is in control, was the hashkafah of the חובבי ציון movement, which predated Herzl by two decades, and remains the hashkafah of the various forms of Religious Zionism. It is WRT this idea (not the other one) that there were חילוקי דעות among Gedolei Yisroel of that era.
4. Fast forward 120 or so years… (I am not interested in wasting time on rehashing and debating the history, קל וחומר on klering chakiros what could have/should have/would have been if only whatever…) Millions of Yidden live here. Secular Zionism has long since gone out of style. No sane person can claim that Israel has been accepted ‘as an equal member of the community of nations’, or even is in control of its own destiny… Most (all?) of the politicians only care about political survival, not any particular ideology. Those who oppose Yiddishkeit in Israel today do so mainly in the name of Progressive/Post-Modern ideology. Religious Zionism ironically still exists, despite also being despised by the Progressives…
5. This leaves us with a practical set of facts on the ground that have to be dealt with. There are different approaches HOW to deal with the State once it exists, הלא הם כתובים על ספר דברי הימים. I do not consider myself qualified to judge תלמיד חכם זה נאה ותלמיד חכם זה אינו נאה, so I’ll leave it at that… Since we live here, unlike you, we don’t have the luxury of contemplating theoretical scenarios that start with ‘What if?’. Even Satmar etc. agree that there is no scenario על פי דרך הטבע to shut down the State any time in the foreseeable future without massive loss of Jewish life ר״ל. I don’t think any Yid not mentally ill holds that to be an option. And if NOT על פי דרך הטבע, it might as well be ended by Moshiach… Hence, my earlier post. None of this is a סתירה to not believing in either type of Zionism, just a practical reality.
Gadolhadorah – “So much of this debate, both in the U.S. and EY, is framed as a binary choice where the only two options are the far-left, woke liberals who embrace every extreme toevah and the so-called “torah-true” yidden who reject any compromise on matters of hashkafah and reject the YU/REITS/MO etc. segments of the tzibur.”
I don’t know if you are referring to my posts, but if you are, my point was not to judge the MO/YU etc. My point was, that sooner or later, the MO world who want to be honest with themselves and with the Ribbono Shel Olam (I believe most are, certainly within the RIETS orbit), will THEMSELVES have to make a ‘binary choice’ between a goyish velt that increasingly brooks no compromise on THEIR ‘hashkafah’, and some sort of real Torah hashkafah. Stretching that term as wide as possible still can’t accommodate LGBTQXYZ_who_knows_what_next+++, and not accommodating the flavor-of-the-month will get you ‘cancelled’ professionally and academically. They will not be able to have their ‘modern’ cake and eat it.
There can be coexistence without compromising individual values and hashkafah.
Sure there can be. IMHO, the reason there is less than there could be is simply because in big cities each individual community is big enough to do their own thing with little interaction with others. That also affords the luxury of circling the wagons and criticizing others… In out-of-town settings you do see much more cooperation.