Yaakov Yosef A

Yankel Berel Re. Pikuach Nefesh.

I hear what you are saying. On a practical למעשה level, I don’t think anyone holds that anything we discussed is a Heter to ignore an actual immediate PN scenario. Both on the individual level, such as Hatzalah for Chilonim even on Shabbos and even without considerations of איבה etc., and also on the tzibbur level. The reason people permit themselves to speak this way is because they know no one is asking them either way what Israel’s military policy should be. So it becomes a matter of internal polemics where precise definitions and guidelines are less critical. If by some miracle the Matka”l would convene a panel of Satmar/Eidah Rabbonim to seriously listen to their input on למעשה level decision making, I think you would hear a very different tune (which would still be very different than current Israeli policy, but fully grounded in Halachic and practical reality.)

Another related but different issue is how much of what is bandied around as “pikuach nefesh” really meets that definition, and to what extent is IDF tactical and strategic policy based on pikuach nefesh as opposed to other considerations. Take for example something that has been in the headlines for the past few days. The return of the dead ‘hostage’. Jewish lives were risked, and in other similar episodes Jewish lives were lost, in order to return a dead body for proper Jewish burial. This is something that has no Halachic heter whatsoever. Simply an emotional reaction which is more prevalent by Chilonim, because death and burial are among the few things they associate with religious emotions. Yet somehow this is all self-understood and even celebrated, even among Frum Jews, which shows the extent foreign Hashkafos and emotions have seeped in.

Bibi in particular excels at creating a constant atmosphere of “pikuach nefesh”, in order to distract from the many problems he doesn’t have solutions for and to scare people away from voting for Left-wing politicians. (Which may be good for us too politically, but it isn’t a heter to drag a war on forever and get soldiers killed.) So, you are right that this doesn’t make pikuach nefesh less important, but it begs one to think more critically about what actually is PN and what isn’t.

v32itas – I don’t know what translation you are using, but you seem to be confused by it. You would do yourself well to buy an Artscroll Chumash, and even better a set of Artscroll Rashi translated. “The Living Torah” translation by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan is also an excellent resource. The terms you listed are synonymous.

AAQ – As I have tried to explain many times, ‘Chareidi’ is primarily an attitude and value system, not the external ‘results’ of that value system. You also seem to keep identifying all Chareidim with the Litvish subtype, or conflating ‘Chareidi’ with ‘Kollel Yungerman’, although they are two different things. That said, if EVERYONE will be Chareidi (or perhaps more accurately some sort of ‘critical mass’), so then most of the reasons for avoiding certain endeavors and occupations etc. will no longer be relevant. So it will be easier for those Chareidim so inclined to pursue at least some of the options you mentioned.

Before, during, or shortly after that ‘critical mass’ is reached, the Supreme Court will absolutely need to be removed from power ‘by any means necessary’. Their toxic and divisive influence cannot be overstated, and they do everything to prevent any sort of rapprochement between the different groups in Israeli society, especially when it comes to the Chareidim.

I also believe that the more ‘Chareidi’ side of the RZ world will grow in numbers, resulting in a shift of the RZ balance in favor of R as opposed to Z. (For the same reasons described in the post on demographics.) That group already has doctors, professionals, etc., and will continue to produce them. At any rate, I’m not worried about a shortage of doctors or engineers in Israel in the foreseeable future. Unless everyone goes into high-tech, which is a totally separate problem… At any rate, I think this will somehow develop as an organic process of growth, together with the numbers.

These are my personal thoughts only, I don’t speak on behalf of any specific group or Shittah.

mdd1 – Re. Rambam

In today’s terms that may be what is called ‘deterrence’. Milchemes Reshus can only be initiated by a Halachic King, with the approval of the Sanhedrin. What does that have to do with anything after the Churban Bayis Rishon?

ujm – Probably, but that is a general worldwide trend. I suspect though that the most religious Muslims (and therefore the most Jihad oriented) have a higher rate. The publicly available data doesn’t break down the Arab statistics by how religious they are.

AAQ said “absolutely, but we also should not go to another extreme and denigrate something just because anti-religious people started it.”

YYA: The problem with Zionism is not simply that “anti-religious people started it”.

AAQ: “If you find common positions with Israelis who are not charedim but are observant, or traditional, or even non-religious but not anti-religious, then those remaining anti-religious attitudes will be marginalized. These are not 1950s any more.”

Absolutely true. But there are certain lines that cannot be crossed.

AAQ: “When I asked the speaker later in private – his take was that yichud and such can lead to irreversible tragedies, comparing with limited damage from nezikin [I am not commenting]”

YYA: He does have a point… That isn’t a reason not to learn and be careful with דיני ממונות or הלכות שבת. Just a reason to be extra careful with הלכות יחוד, something many Rabbonim have pointed out.

AAQ: “How do you explain pages of Gemorah explaining medical cures and safe travel instructions? Was it to provide medical parnosah to students or because the rabonim genuinely cared for their health? about being careful how you dispose glass pieces? about tzadik (or tzadekes?) that provide shovels for funerals? [yes, it says that learning gets bigger zechut].”

YYA: You correctly answer your own question. Being careful with all of these things is part of what the Torah teaches us. That is part of גמילות חסדים which is one of the pillars of the world and a big part of Torah itself. As the Ba’al HaTanya and Reb Yisroel Salanter are both quoted as saying: “Someone else’s גשמיות is my רוחניות.” You don’t need to spend 10 years of your life on medical school and residency and specialization etc. in order to do Chessed.

AAQ: “Do you think developing missile defense or brain surgery are less of a chesed? Just try to disassociate this from zionism or secularism of colleges and look at the issue itself.”

YYA: Potentially these things could be chessed, and someone who for whatever reason chose that career path could do his work with genuine כוונה to do chessed (which would certainly make him a better doctor, maybe even a better missile defense contractor). We could disassociate this from Zionism and secularism, but not from college… In the case of the brain surgeon, huge amounts of college. You don’t need to go to college in order to do chessed. And there are plenty of Goyim out there who are surgeons or missile designers etc. If Israel will become so Chareidi that they will need davka Chareidi surgeons for lack of any others, then long before that the colleges will be cleaned out from shmutz… More likely Moshiach will come first and ועמדו זרים ורעו צאנכם.

AAQ: “I think I know where you are going, but I don’t fully agree, maybe needs to be re-phrased. Hashem created all these interesting things around us – surely, not for us to ignore, but to apply our Torah approach to the world. While I agree with your “accusation” that I am repeating my own opinion on Charedism, I found a similar view in R Soloveitchik in 1950s: ,if we claim to have knowledge of the world from Hashem, then we should not be hiding in the caves, but rather engage with the world.”

YYA: Simply being alive in a physical body with physical needs and having a wife and kids and supporting them etc. (without davka going to medical school for 10 years) is enough “engaging with the world” to be יוצא according to the Torah.

mdd1 Re. War with Ammon:

I wasn’t self-assured that I remembered the exact sequence of events, so I opened up Sefer Shmuel and checked. Thank you for referring me to Divrei Hayamim. I checked there (DH 1, perek 19, posuk 8) and although there are some additional details, the Jewish attack is clearly framed as a preemptive response to Ammon mobilizing their forces for an attack. Which says something about Dovid HaMelech’s military strategy, but is not an example of “fighting for honor”. Aside from the fact that when a new head of state (Chanun ben Nachash) takes charge of the country next door (which had an on and off history of hostility that continues down to today), and the first diplomatic delegation sent to him is physically assaulted and abused, that says something about his intentions more than simply being an affront to “honor”. We see that Dovid HaMelech was not averse to staging a preemptive strike when he held it was necessary.

WRT Keren HaTorah, is that my personal kovod that you accuse me of being “self assured”? I am assured that Hashem will not abandon the Yeshivos, who are the home of some of His most loyal Yidden, who deserve to be assured more than me. If the support will come from this campaign or the next one or from some other source, is for Hashem to take care of. Don’t worry, the Yeshivos aren’t going anywhere.

Yankel Berel said: “but closing up shop as you say …. the ‘gesheft makes no sense’ ….. is equal to …. inviting clear mass pikuach nefesh permanently tenable or not tenable … is language to be used only when discounting the RBSHO chvsh rabenu yonah [shar gimmel] writes that the hiyuv of bitachon includes the ‘carrying of yeshuat hashem belevavo’

YYA: Seriously, do you think that Bibi et al “carry Yeshuas Hashem bilvavo”? So what are they thinking? Do they even think they have a long term strategy of any kind? We obviously do not discount the Ribbono Shel Olam ח״ו. They do. So how on Earth do they think the IDF will protect Israel forever?

This is not a thread about “dismantling Israel” or the IDF, or what Israel’s military strategy should be. I don’t see any point in discussing those issues, because no one asks us our opinion anyway. What this thread is about, which is very נוגע to us (to avoid), is the culture of lionizing the IDF and ‘sheepizing’ the real Kedoshim of all the generations (as well as the misguided set of priorities and values that leads to such an attitude.) Which is the core of Zionism. The attitude that “Jews were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army yada yada.” Something that is not only כפירה גמורה, but is also wrong במציאות too.

Israel (via the IDF) usually does an OK job of cleaning up its own mess, or putting out the fires that it started, or whatever mashal you want to use, minus 20,000 or so Jewish lives lost over the last 78 years. Vastly more Jews than were killed EVERYWHERE ELSE PUT TOGETHER over the same period of time. Contrary to popular belief, there were many 78 year intervals during the Tekufah that we didn’t have an army when fewer Jews were killed. So מה הועילו חכמי חעלם בתקנתם? Can we safely disband the IDF now that we’re stuck here? No, we cannot. Are the poor kids sent to be cannon fodder possibly to save Jews and possibly to keep Bibi in office or other considerations doing a Mitzvah? Maybe. But they are dead. Why is this idiotic מצב anything to be proud of?

Yankel Berel said: “the same One who carried the jews in EY in His embrace for the last 80 years in the face of overwhelming odds can … and will …. continue to carry them , so whether some countries do or do not have nuclear weapons is really irrelevant to the final outcome”

YYA: I don’t understand your thinking. ממה נפשך – If you aren’t a Zionist, so what changed 80 years ago? Before then Hashem didn’t carry the Jews in His embrace? Yes EVEN DURING THE HOLOCAUST. More on that in the next paragraph. So what did the IDF or Israel in general add to the equation? For the secular who don’t rely on Hashem’s embrace, only on the IDF, then it takkeh does make no sense… So what are they thinking?

As for the Holocaust, the IDF would have done no good whatsoever. More SOLDIERS were KILLED fighting the Nazis than the TOTAL NUMBER of IDF soldiers who ever existed, even if the soldiers from ’48 would still be alive and combat ready today… 6,000,000 MORE Russians (22,000,000!) were killed in WWII than the entire Jewish population of the world at the time. It is a joke to think that the IDF could have stood up to the Nazis. Pathetic non-starter. If a nation with the scientific, technological, financial, and manpower resources of Germany would want to eliminate Israel and only the IDF would be in its way, על פי דרך הטבע the odds would not be good.

So, bottom line: Israel will do whatever they do. The IDF will do whatever they do. No one is closing up shop or trying to do so. The poor kids slaughtered like sheep usually succeed in temporarily ‘mowing the grass’ and hopefully at least get a Mitzvah. Those who are still alive to thank we do thank. The Israeli leadership past and present get absolutely zero credit for ‘saving’ Klal Yisroel. This whole bloody mess is nothing to be proud of. I sit together with six million Jews between electrified barbed wire fences and the Mediterranean Sea and yes, indeed, אין לנו על מי להישען אלא על אבינו שבשמים. And I am very proud to be part of the עם השם who keep the chain of קבלת התורה going, and I hope all Jews everywhere will also “share the burden” and get with the Ribbono Shel Olam’s program. במהרה בימינו אמן.

Yankel Berel Re. Maharal

You asked me for how the ויואל משה explains pshat in the Maharal. That’s what I wrote. The wording of the ויואל משה doesn’t suggest he agrees הלכה למעשה that the שבועות are ייהרג ואל יעבור, and he admits that the Maharal is a Chiddush, and even adds additional kashes on the Maharal. But then your Kashe is on the Maharal, not on the ויואל משה. Siman 157 is a very short siman on a very big topic. There are many more relevant and realistic (for the time of the Mechaber and Ramah) scenarios not spelled out there, or even in the Meforshim on the ‘daf’. And the bottom line is that as we both agree there are bigger problems with Zionism than this.

DaMoshe said: “why do you say the IDF is the “supreme temple of Zionism”?

YYA: Because it is the focal point of their value system (to the point of being what some call a ‘secular religion’). As in “Jewish Pride”TM, “Never Again”TM, etc. Just look at what some RZ write about the IDF in nearly Messianic terms (maybe not just ‘nearly’). “Dying al kedushas IDF” is to them what dying for one’s Judaism is for us.

DaMoshe said “If I had to pick something to describe as the main element of Zionism, it’s Eretz Yisrael, and due to the religious aspect.”

YYA: Because Zionism originated as a religious movement… Yearning for the Kedusha of Uganda… Love for Eretz Yisroel has nothing to do with Zionism. I moved here and I am not a Zionist. The fact that ex post facto the RZ read into Zionism “good כוונות” that weren’t really there doesn’t change reality.

DaMoshe said: I’d love to see a frum government running things in Israel. I’m still a Zionist, even with that view.”

YYA: I agree that those two statements need not contradict each other.

mdd1 said: “the Rambam paskens that a Melech Yisroel is allowed with a premission of Sanhedrin to go to a war of reshus.”

1. Melech Yisroel (The next one will be Moshiach.)
2. Permission of Sanhedrin (Who sat in the Sanhedrin? Chilonim?)
3. Urim VeTumim (Mentioned in Gemara.)

Basically permission of the Ribbono Shel Olam Himself, so what’s the problem? Fighting under such conditions is a Mitzvas Aseh like wearing Tefillin. Nothing necessarily even to do with Pikuach Nefesh. Even if Israel would operate as a completely Halachic state, none of this is remotely relevant nowadays.

As it happens, Dovid HaMelech never went to war for fun and profit like the ancient Gentile kings constantly did. All of the campaigns described in Sefer Shmuel fit a pattern of “cleaning up the neighborhood” and subduing hostile elements. He also conquered Syria to create a “security buffer zone” to the north… None of this has anything to do with ‘honor’ and certainly not “dying with honor”. The war you referenced with Ammon was started by Ammon… Read the Pesukim.

mdd1 – Did you read the Perek (שמואל ב י) inside, or are you shooting from the hip? Look at Posuk 6 for who started that war…

Again, if it isn’t sufficiently clear yet – none of this is a סתירה to the concept of הכרת הטוב towards soldiers or anyone else. ‘הכרת הטוב’, ‘respect’, and ‘veneration’ are three separate concepts. A simple example – one can and should have הכרת הטוב towards President Donald Trump, independent of whether he deserves the other two items. But that isn’t the same attitude we have towards true קדושים, both those who die as Kedoshim and those who live as Kedoshim – i.e. those who we venerate as the pinnacle of our values and aspirations.

AAQ – I don’t know if you did or didn’t see my previous comment (that this is not about bitachon and hishtadlus) before posting your last comment (Are eating and drinking bad etc.) That being said:

This thread is also not about ruchniyus vs. gashmiyus either. You (actually not just you) seem to follow a line of thinking that ‘Chareidi’ is about ‘rejecting’ gashmiyus or hishtadlus (per se) due to fear of the modern world. This is not inherently part of the DEFINITION of ‘Chareidi’, even though it may RESULT to some extent from the different set of priorities and goals. Similar to saying that laxity in Mitzvah observance isn’t inherently part of the definition of MO or RZ, even though it may result to some extent from the different set of priorities and goals…

What ‘Chareidi’ is really about (and this thread is about) is that Torah and Mitzvos are the ONLY real תכלית החיים of the Jewish People, both on the national level and on the individual level. That is the ONLY thing to celebrate and the ONLY thing to be proud of. Everything else is at best a necessity, just like using the toilet is. Not ‘bad’, not ‘evil’, not ‘rejected’, just ‘something we need to do to in order to function, so that we can get back to our real goal of Torah and Mitzvos, which is the only reason we are here in this world.’ There is no inherent reason to be proud of the Iron Dome etc. more than there is to be proud of our bowel movements (which are more necessary, hopefully more reliable, and we even make a Bracha on them.) Actually, the Iron Dome is the hospital next to the bridge of Chelm… Before they made the Iron Dome they made the reasons we now need the Iron Dome… Which themselves were unnecessary… But that is a separate topic. Missile defense and brain surgery etc. are not the reason we are here in this world. If someone can use those things for parnassah, so fine.

This way of looking at things, which is basic Judaism 101, not a modern phenomenon at all, is not inherently a סתירה to working or eating or even fighting if necessary, but it completely changes the focus and the order of priorities, and ממילא results in different outcomes. This is as opposed to the view that sees the תכלית החיים to be Olam Hazeh, just subject to the restrictions of Halacha, i.e. to have the attitudes and priorities and values of a Goy, but to (hopefully) follow Shulchan Aruch.

בתכלית הקיצור, there is a מושג that BOTH שיטות are necessary, at the same time. As in שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת on a cosmic level. This is a concept discussed in Likutey Halachos (by R’ Nosson of Breslov) in a number of places. The צדיקים who went with the מידת הדין weakened and drove away the forces of the סטרא אחרא and mitigated the קטרוג above (as in השיב את חמתי בקנאו את קנאתי), which was מעורר רחמי שמים and enabled the צדיקים who went with מידת החסד to be mekarev lost neshamos. A process that will be completed by Moshiach. R’ Nosson brings the Posuk in Amos הלא כבני כושיים אתם לי (which דרך אגב is almost always read the Shabbos before a certain date after Pesach…) where the Navi calls the sinful 10 Tribes Goyim, and not just any Goyim… And immediately after Hashem says כי לא השמד אשמיד את בית ישראל נאם ה׳ and the following Pesukim of רחמים, i.e. they really aren’t THAT bad… He explains that calling them Goyim was itself a veiled לימוד זכות, because compared to וכו׳ they aren’t nearly as bad as the Middas HaDin claims they are. These דיבורים of Tzadikkim also serve to push away the genuine ערב רב, who we cannot identify through Halachic criteria, and ultimately only Hashem can perform this בירור.

1. So it is necessary for צדיקים to both be מרחק and מקרב, and for us to believe אלו ואלו דברי אלקים חיים and not be confused by this.

2. Don’t go kill anyone thinking they are literally Amalek.

3. (Above and beyond the civility and care the Torah teaches us in dealing with human beings in general) we do need to love and care about anyone Halachically Jewish who isn’t a מסית ומדיח or otherwise a proactive danger to others. We AT LEAST need to Daven for them to do Teshuvah.

4. We do NOT need to love or respect their krum hashkafos or join projects and institutions opposed to the Torah.

DaMoshe said: “Maybe the reason they push having pride in it is so that people will be more likely to serve in the IDF? They need people to support it in order to function – maybe it’s really just a means to an end?”

There is way more to it than that. The IDF (as the supreme Temple of Zionism) is a value system, a culture, and an entire ideology, that seeks to replace Judaism itself as the focus of Jewish identity. It is not just some glorified macro-version of Shomrim. There are those who would argue that the opposite of what you said is true – the purpose of the IDF is to bring “pride” to the Jewish people (לשיטתם). This was and is expressed again and again by the Zionist leaders themselves, and by the RZ, and is the direct source of statements such as “slaughtered like sheep” etc.

Regardless of whether it was even מותר at all, there certainly was never any חיוב to make an army, or a state for that matter, and the endless cycle of פיקוח נפש is a self-fulfilling prophecy. There was and is no need for a Jewish army to protect the Jews outside of Israel, and who asked anyone to concentrate 6,000,000 Jews in the Middle East behind electrified barbed wire (Israeli border) fences, while poking all of the bears in the neighborhood? So what do we do now? Good question, but not the subject of this thread.

Yankel Berel

Re. R’ Chaim Shmulevitz.

Thank you for the source. לכאורה the precedent of Harugei Lud comes to mind from a number of angles, including also the Halachic possibility of giving one’s own life to save the Tzibur (there is much more to the sugya ואכמ״ל). It would still require Emunah that there is a Metzaveh Who gave us the Mitzvah of saving others, not simply the regular duty of a soldier anywhere. Although from my experience far more “non-Frum” Israelis believe that (as a matter of Emunah, on some basic level) than somejew may think (קל וחומר RZ soldiers, despite other issues, the Harugei Lud themselves were not otherwise Tzadikkim, which is part of the Chiddush of the sugya.) What actually goes on in Shomayim only Hashem Himself knows. But none of this has anything to do with the concept of ‘pride’ because someone ‘went down fighting’, which is a completely Goyish concept that has no source in the Torah.

Re. Sefer Chassidim

That assumes he was in fact doing a Mitzvah. Doing battle in an actual Halachic army (i.e. Sanhedrin, Mashuach Milchamah, Urim VeTumim, etc.) is itself a Mitzvah regardless of outcome. Nowadays הלוואי it isn’t an Aveirah, and עוד פעם הלוואי that it actually saves Jewish lives instead of making the מצב worse… Many considerations go into the tactical decision making of the IDF other than achieving the best possible protection of Jewish lives with minimum losses, and they don’t usually ask the Urim VeTumim or the Neviim…

SomeJew said: “No, I do care. I hate the reshoyim and cry for the tinukos shenishbu like those trapped at YU and HUC and Mirkaz Hara. עד כאן

YYA: Why are those ‘trapped’ at YU and Mercaz Harav ‘Tinokos Shenishbu’? ממה נפשך, if you hold they are Kofrim ח״ו, then they are מזיד, because they learn Torah and should know better. If you hold they are just confused because of their circumstances, so קל וחומר those born and raised non-Frum… Do you even realize how far you have drifted from any semblance of logical thinking?

SomeJew said: At might [my] shabbos tish, like many, we encourage our kids to eat the chulent saying “yeder bundel hargit a tziyoni”.” עד כאן

YYA: I heard years ago from my Rebbe זצ״ל (who was a big anti-Zionist) that there are people who say this. To put it VERY mildly, he did not like the idea and said it is horrible Chinuch… This is the first time I have ever encountered anyone who admits to actually saying such a thing to his children. So, let me ask you. Where does this הנהגה come from? Why, in the middle of your Shabbos Seuda, do you and your children need to think of Zionists and violent death, which would probably upset your Oneg Shabbos unless you are psychopathic sadists? And if you do need to wish death upon someone in order to enjoy your chulent, so why not say ‘Amaleki’?

Another question: What do you think about more often – Hashem, Torah, or להבדיל Zionists?

AnIsraeliYid:

The classical definition of “Kadosh” in this context is someone who CHOSE to die in a genuine ייהרג ואל יעבור scenario. There are sources that extend it to include those killed specifically for being Jewish, even if not given a choice to renounce their Judaism. Defending Jews doesn’t have anything to do with it per se. Interestingly, it isn’t pashut at all that it is even PERMITTED to GIVE one’s life to defend another, or even a tzibur. It is permitted to RISK one’s life (ספק) to save others from ודאי danger, but to go on a literal ‘suicide mission’ or even ספק קרוב לוודאי danger is not pashut at all. None of this has anything to do with הכרת הטוב which is a completely different concept, and would certainly apply to ANYONE who did ANYTHING to help ANYONE. (My guess is that non-Jews who gave their lives to protect Jews are in a WAY better place in עולם הבא than the average עכו״ם, simply because אין הקדוש ברוך הוא מקפח שכר כל בריה, but that is not the same thing as a קדוש.)

So, what is the point of all of this? Because the concept of ‘Kadosh’ reflects a value statement. This is the pinnacle of our ideals. Like we say every day in Krias Shma בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך. As in: “What you are willing to die for defines what you live for.” For almost 3300 years every Jew said Shma twice a day and before going to sleep, and we knew what we are willing to die for – Hashem and his Torah. Secular Zionism sought to change the focal point of Jewish identity and values from “Hashem and his Torah” as in כי עם קדוש אתה להשם אלקיך, to a “nation state” as in France – French, Germany – Germans, Israel – Jews ח״ו. That is why there is a major problem when ‘defending a secular political entity’ (even when worded as ‘defending Jews’) is presented as replacing Hashem ח״ו at the top of the Kedushah pedestal.

There is much more to this subject, but this is the core of the Chareidi/Zionist divide.

DaMoshe: “R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach famously said that the soldiers buried on Mt Herzl are kedoshim, and he advised his students to go daven there before the Yomim Noraim, instead of traveling to other areas.”

YYA: I have heard various versions of this quote, some more sensational than others. But I have never been able to track it down definitively to a reliable source. (Not automatically denying the possibility that he said this, or something resembling this, but suspicious.) Do you or anyone here know with certainty who heard him say that and in what context? Also, did Reb Shlomo Zalman זצ״ל himself or anyone close to him actually go there?

DaMoshe: “You are also misunderstanding the words of davening. We are not proud to have been led like sheep to slaughter. If anything, that is a taaneh against Hashem (if such a thing can exist) – we are proud that we didn’t forget Him, despite having been led like sheep. We recognize that it came from Hashem, and even so, we still follow Him.”

YYA: Agreeing that the main emphasis is on ובכל זאת שמך לא שכחנו, but we certainly aren’t ASHAMED that we were slaughtered. The entire ״טענה״ so to speak would also make no sense if we attributed our suffering to “not having an army.” You very correctly acknowledged this yourself in the last sentence: “We recognize that it came from Hashem, and even so, we still follow Him.”

We still are left with no Torah source for the idea that someone killed fighting is somehow more ‘honorable’ than someone ‘slaughtered like a sheep’, especially if the latter consciously chose to die for his Emunah in Hashem.

SomeJew: As the Chazon Ish says, we must judge each person individually.

YYA – So now you are gores the Chazon Ish…

SomeJew: And, poskim have been clear that !!!***we must always be machmir on all sides when concerned for pikiach nefesh.***!!!

YYA: Thank you. That is what I was waiting for you to finally be forced to admit. What about Ruchniyusdige Pekiach Neifesh?

SomeJew: I’m not sure what “pligsa” you are referring to.

YYA: The same one you just referred to…

SomeJew: This is all besides the fact that with a known rushe merisha, I’m pretty sure the reasons for saving their lives include “aimuh”, threats of jail as punishment (especially for emergency workers), as well as loss of future privilege by those organizations that help enable their lifesaving work.

YYA: Maybe, although there aren’t many of those, and having ones life saved by Chareidim can cause even real hard-core ‘anti’ types to rethink their attitude… Something that has happened in real life. For the record, the היתר you are referring to was never said with regard to during the week, only to allow even chilul Shabbos, and usually in the context of עכו״ם ואכמ״ל ברשות הרבים.