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I agree with Wolfman. I’m not sure where some people come up with their naive comments.

As for TheBear, the things you said are scary. I’m still kinda hoping you don’t really believe the things you wrote.

It sounds to me like you’ve paskened that “living in EY is a mitzvah sheba beavaira.” Perhaps you should share your version of halacha with the gedolei yisrael who live in EY. For every abomination here, there are way more in chu”l but you’ve conveniently decided to ignore that because it doesn’t fit into your justification argument as to why you don’t move to the holy land that Hashem promised to the Avot & Imahot.

As for my comment about the radio ad of a daf yomi shiur every day at 5am – I meant that the radio program BROADCASTS the daf yomi shiur every morning at 5! Again, this is a regular radio program that’s run by the “zionist regime.” Nachum Segal’s programs announce wonderful events and shiurim. They play heartwarming Jewish music. They even have divrei Torah sometimes. But you can’t begin to compare that to a daily daf yomi broadcast to the entire country! Oh, by the way, Nachum Segal is a religious zionist!

The rest of the stuff that you wrote is just drivel. Full of hate for wonderful religious people here who are building a home for themselves full of Torah. Talk to the meraglim and they’ll hopefully be able to remind you about why you’re not allowed to say loshon hara about our land (and people). If you don’t like something that’s going on here – in Tel Aviv or anywhere else – then come here and make it better! Not by throwing rocks or insults but by doing something constructive to be mekarev the rechokim. Your comments do nothing to improve the ills of the secular in Tel Aviv but rather drives them further away. I kind of remember my mommy telling me “if you can’t say something nice then don’t say anything at all.”

I’m quite sure you are right Confucious. Certainly the Arabs went back into their Koran and added these hateful p’sukim in at around the time of the Balfour Declaration. Before that the Arabs loved the Jews and I’m sure they would have never murdered millions of their own people and 100,000s of Jews over the past centuries. In fact, I’m positive that the only reason the moslems blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon was because of the zionists. Heck, we all know that Hashem’s Torah doesn’t tell us anything about the hate that the Bnei Yishmael have for us. All of those theories and silly divrei Torah about ma’aseh Avot siman l’banim are a joke. Everyone knows that the Jews can and should live peacefully under the governance of the wonderful brotherly Arabs.

Not sure if I should laugh or cry! Akuperma’s vision of the relationship between Arabs and Jews is way off base. Even the Arabs don’t want to live under Arab rule!! Let’s see, hmmm… you know, I can’t think of any moslem countries that treat their own people well (besides for maybe Turkey). They murder their own people in droves, they supress their rights and they are all-around not nice guys (is that PC enough for you?)

The Jews in every single moslem country have been murdered for centuries and this has NOTHING to do with Israel and zionism. The Jews in Yemen, Iran, Iraq, etc number only a few – they obediently live their lives in ghettos (sometimes under the “protection” of the moslem governments) until every so often there’s a pogrom or attack that murders a few of them. The thought that you can blame this on zionism or the idea that you can suggest that the Arabs will be good to the Jews is… I just don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

Oh, akuperma (et al) – maybe y’all should pick up a Koran while you’re learning in Yeshiva D’Palestine and learn the “posuk” about the moslems killing every last Jew. “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.” I know that you want to point to the once in a while where Jews did successfully live in relative peace with the moslems. However, they’ve always been quite direct when they say that they will fulfill their quest to kill all Jews and dominate the world when they come to power. Until then, they live in relative peace so that they can make their way into power.

Would you like some more info about the Moslem Arabs’ feelings? Check out some more of their p’sukim in the Koran here (or google “koran verses on killing jews”): http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

Just a quick, well-placed quote from that site: “Other than the fact that Muslims haven’t killed every non-Muslim under their domain, there is very little else that they can point to as proof that theirs is a peaceful, tolerant religion. Where Islam is dominant (as in the Middle East and Pakistan) religious minorities suffer brutal persecution with little resistance. Where Islam is in the minority (as in Thailand, the Philippines and Europe) there is the threat of violence if Muslim demands are not met.”

DaasYochid – you do bring up a great point, a person’s contribution to society isn’t limited to finances. The problem is that MorahRach was asking for clarification about Kiryas Yoelite’s statement that chareidim are contributing to the economy. She was not disparaging chareidim but asking for specifics. Your comment asking about the soldiers’ financial contribution rubbed me wrong because it doesn’t answer the original question and (seemed like) a dig at the soldiers who give significantly more than money.

Having said that, I do think the soldiers give financially in many ways. They do their jobs for the country for a very small salary. They don’t just fight but many of them also work in medicine, dentistry, engineering, hi-tech, food, etc – all while in the army. What’s interesting is that they often take those skills with them into the market place when they’ve finished their army service. All of those jobs – both inside & outside of the army – contribute financially to the system. There are other ways that the soldiers contribute financially but that’s for another time.

Now, while I’m on the topic let me take us on a tangent – I’ve read comments multiple times claiming that the university students are given all kinds of stipends & funding but this isn’t fair to the chareidim who are learning in yeshiva but get less money. I’ve repeatedly read here that to be fair, the government must give the chareidim the same. So, this argument is wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the chareidim get funding for much longer than univ. students. Secondly, the avreichim get lots of money from the government in many different ways besides just the stipends – the yeshivot are given money to use for itself, they wheel & deal to get cheaper housing (I’m seeing it 1st hand), they get huge arnona tax breaks, etc, etc, etc. This funding is not available to univ. students and continues for yrs & yrs. Thirdly (& possibly most importantly), the univ. students take their education & start working to improve the economy – that’s the only reason it makes sense for a government to get involved with giving people stipends!!! The avreichim are much less likely to return financially to the economy as the univ students do.

That means – you have to take into consideration the huge kiddush Hashem that the government has been financially supporting Torah learning for 60+ yrs with no expectation of financial return! Had the chareidi movement expressed their thanks in a kavodic way over the past 60+ yrs, I can’t imagine where we would be now as the Jewish people in our Homeland!

Rebdoniel – yes, without a doubt I agree with your comment about the hesder yeshivot. They learn tremendous amounts of Torah. My 3rd paragraph above was just to say that “even” people who appear non-religious here also are known to learn Torah. Of course it’s not on the same level as the hesder or chareidi yeshivot but then, we’re not to judge who’s learning is doing a better job at keeping us safe – only Hashem decides that.

Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite – saying that the government willingly gave the money is not the whole truth. Firstly, the government gives the $$ because the chareidi parties strong-armed them into it. Secondly, the people paying the taxes don’t agree – as can clearly be seen by the recent voting. Thirdly, the initial argument made by shoe store assistant above is that the current situation in Israel is comparable to the story of R’ Yitzchok Elchonon. However, that story explains that both sides fully agreed and R’ Yitzchok Elchonon kept his part of the bargain by learning b’zchut his F.I.L. In contrast, the chareidi mosdot routinely shun the government, the medinah and the soldiers. They don’t make efforts to do anything b’zchut the soldiers – even something simple like saying a mi sheberach for the safety of the soldiers protecting them as they learn! Let’s be crystal clear – I’m not talking about a mi sheberach for the medinah of Israel (chos v’shalom, lo aleinu) – I’m referring to davening a simple mi sheberach specifically for the safety of the foot soldiers who are actually defending us. That’s NOT the government. They won’t even say the words, forget about what’s truly inside their hearts as they’re learning! Simply put, they don’t keep their part of the “partnership” because they don’t see it as a partnership at all – they’re taking money from the Jewish people here (via the government) against their will without sharing their learning z’chuyot with their soldier counterparts – and that, my friend, is gezel.

Just an important side point to those of you who don’t live in E”Y – The chareidi world here is very different than the chareidi world outside of E”Y. So much so that I know a lot of people who were chareidi in the US but came here to find out that they were not chareidi. I know way too many more people who won’t move here because of this divide – they are chareidi in the US but know in advance that they won’t fit into the chareidi thing here. How sad is that!?!?

This is partially to do with how people define themselves – the word chareidi is just a word and the concept behind it is a moving target.