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Right, so everyone says that. I probably took the most academic classes possible (like the 9-credit chumash class…) and I had VERY little work. My Machon Raaya friends had much more. We just had the good learning. I was almost unique in that I had four classes with more than one test per semester, or even per year. Most classes are either midterm-final, final only, or final-project only. If you pick your classes right, you’re essentially on vacation. (I picked my classes right and learned an insane amount, even if I did work a little, so it’s what you make of it 🙂 .)
There’s a weekly parsha quiz, a term paper (which I’ve heard they’ve gotten rid of!) and a yedios klalios test. Much less than my friends at BY seminaries. Compared to my friends at MO seminaries who had literally no work, though, we were working our heads off.
I think the reputation may come because they have reasonably high standards for admission, not because the school itself is hard.
NOT Bais Shraga.
Good school but definitely yeshivish, discouraging college (they’re not allowed to take the SAT).
(But we’ve had the yeshivish-or-not discussion already 🙂 )
Shaar HaTorah in Queens? I don’t think it’s super yeshivish at this point, and it seems to be fine with college, considering it offers APs.
EVERYONE EVERYWHERE will use the word geshmak.
Unless you’re looking more for a yeshiva high school like MTA? Can’t really tell from your post.
Whether or not it’s muttar to serve drinks at a simcha, it is not muttar to crash/sneak into a simcha in order to drink their booze, even if the baal hasimcha let you in to get some cake and especially not if the baal hasimcha kicked you out.
#truestory… sigh.
I’d be really surprised if more than one or two mothers wore pants at all.
The parent body is very diverse but not to that extent.
I know some alumnae who wear pants but that’s a personal thing. Their mothers don’t. (I also know a BYR alumna who wears pants. People do different things.)
ASHAR might be more likely to have mothers who wear pants, but even then I don’t know how common it is. (Actually, Joseph, you may be mixing them up, as R Fink was involved with ASHAR about fifteen years ago.)
I have a lot of different feelings about Ateres but I will say that it’s a really warm and welcoming school and that’s a great thing for students who want that.
Hashemisreading: Yes, that’s true, but that’s more because of a concerted effort to keep up with BYM. By now, yes, on average they probably are more yeshivish. (It’s literally a contest, apparently…)
MRS PLONY: Yes, Bais Rochel is not all chassidish- just very, very heimish. I do know very, very yeshivish people who send there and teach there. It’s just still not on the radar of those considering most of the other schools here.
I’d change that to “less yeshivish BJJ,” but otherwise that’s pretty accurate. Lots of homework, quizzes, tests, projects, education courses… They take a lot of pride in the amount of work, which they translate as “academicness.”
I went to Michlalah, where I felt like I learned just as much without homework being so emphasized. However, I also have friends who loved Machon Raaya and didn’t think the work was crazy at all, so…
It’s down to BYM and BYR.
There are one or two girls who go to Passaic, maybe…?
If you look at my definitions of the terms, you will see that we seem to have different definitions of the word yeshivish (which is logical- I seem to be coming from a less yeshivish mindset than you are.) I know Breuer’s pretty well- I have close relatives there- and the school is absolutely yeshivish. Not as yeshivish as BYM or BYR, but definitely yeshivish in ideology, specifically compared to Ateres, MHS and Bruriah.
I defined yeshivishness generally by the hanhala. If there was a disparity between hanhala and students, I noted it.
The majority of the people I know of who go to BYM (and I live in a yeshivish enough neighborhood that the majority of the people on my block go there) are very yeshivish. Their parents are in chinuch or other klei kodesh and they will go on to BJJ, Hadar, Nachlas, Bnos Sara, etc (just a few people have gone to off the top of my head). For years BYM was known as “the most yeshivish” of the Monsey high schools. BYR is working hard to catch up. My mom went to BYM when it was a community school- chassidish girls as well as girls in pants. No uniform, just a dress code. That’s a community school. BYM is definitely yeshivish. Yes, Breuer’s is as well.
Student body wise, the schools are definitely a mix. 100% true. But each school still has a certain character.
While I personally didn’t go to a Monsey high school, I grew up here, still (basically) live here, and have siblings and friends who have gone to the schools being discussed. I’m not pulling this out of a hat.
Maybe, maybe not. The system’s raised the bar, but not everyone benefits from the bar being raised on them.
And I think that the system causes negative consequences for those in it, as well, as I’ve mentioned.
I think maybe your giving us an example of where you’re at (which elementary school, be’erech) might be helpful so we can customize.
No girls’ school on this thread teaches gemara. Several may have girls with boyfriends, though none in an “institutionalized” way. (Then again, I know a BYM girl with a boyfriend- it’s an individual thing, nothing to do with the school specifically.) For Bruriah, Modern=Modern orthodox hashkafa. For MHS/Ateres, modern (which is a misnomer that I hate)=no uniform, less BY hashkafa, looser internet, etc rules.
Yeshivish hanhalah means school emphasizing strict uniform, internet ban, smartphone/cell phone ban, kollel ideology, etc. Yeshivish student body means that the girls would have done that anyway. Some such schools have a student body which is less yeshivish.
Mentsch1, I go to Stern. There are 100% people like you describe. There are also many who definitely aren’t.
gaw: As far as charedi, I know that in the CR a specific YU rosh yeshiva was once described as being charedi. This made me crack up, as I know him personally and he would NOT describe himself that way. I asked a family member and, between guffaws of laughter, she said that he WOULD describe himself as chared ledvar Hashem, but not charedi in the Israeli sense. That makes much more sense. I don’t think that charedi in the Israeli sense exists in the US.
DY: I meant the system. I thought we’d established that. I apologize. I mentioned some effects in prior posts. You don’t have to agree with me on their connection.
I think it has much more to do with the attitude in the home than otherwise. Would you say that the later children in a family (born after the father has left full-time learning) are worse off spiritually than the older children, who grew up in such a full-time atmosphere of learning?
inquiring mind: I am sorry to say that I know little to nothing about PT programs. I do have a lot of OPINIONS on kollel. So I made my contribution where it might possibly make an impact 🙂
Um, Joe, that doesn’t make any sense. I will choose who I marry for a variety of reasons. (One may be desperation, who knows, don’t count chickens… 🙂 ) But it will all be part of a bigger picture, so your question doesn’t really follow. That picture includes me as someone who values Torah and hopes to marry someone who does as well.
DY, I just don’t see why it’s necessary to make a “better” Torah home. And on this we fundamentally disagree. I think that the only framework in which it’s bad for a man to not want to learn full-time is in a system where everyone else is, and as we’ve established, the side effects of that system are pernicious.
Online stores generally sell for a more varied crowd because they’re so accessible.
DY: Perhaps I have a different perspective because I didn’t grow up in a kollel home. I still feel like I grew up in a Torah home nonetheless. I also feel like there is value to contributing to family welfare, contributing to the best of your ability to the world (whether through Torah or through any way in which you can see your tafkid), and being self sufficient.
If my future husband learns in kollel, I will consider it a reflection on who he is rather than a “social norm” which means little. I do not believe that kollel is a necessity- I think it is wonderful for the right people, and if my husband is the right person then so much the better. But it is the “system” that I have a problem with, not the concept. (BTW, for reference- and to completely destroy any remaining street cred- that kollel would more likely be RIETS than BMG.) If my husband were NOT to want to learn in kollel, or if for whatever reason it simply could not work out financially, then that would just be how it would be. If my parents or his parents wanted to support, that would be their prerogative, and nothing mandated by a “system.”
flatbusher: 1) I’m not denying that there are multiple causes to good or bad shalom bayis. I was just commenting that there is one that is pretty darn near indisputable in whatever form. 2) As far as a career, I consider it a completely separate factor. It is something I’m torn about, but for reasons completely unrelated to kollel.
FWIW, in a Monsey weekly there was a letter to the editor about how Chanukah parties are totally chukas hagoyim…
DY- just in case… and it’s fun, instead of the two papers I have to be writing 🙂
As far as the heter meah rabbanim goes- that’s the point. In theory, all the heter meah rabbanim is is overriding the cherem. They can do that for any reason. The point here would be convincing these 100 rabbis in a variety of countries that polygamy is a good idea. It’s a test case.
DY, I’m not sure you’re reading what I say. I’m saying that financial security can help shalom bayis and financial insecurity can hurt it. That’s not rocket science. What people choose to do with that information, and whether or not that is mitigated by other factors, is each family’s business. The fact is that I know many families where, either as supporters or supportees, they are indeed adversely affected. Many, such as some of my cousins, are not.
If you look at the discussion points in the frum community now, you can see that many of them are related, some more or less directly than others, to the kollel system: shidduchim (girls not finding shidduchim without clear statements of support), entitledness (among many peer-pressure kollel couples), tuition (in a community where, as I said in my last post, people are losing valuable years and percentages of income by entering the workforce later), huge amounts of money expected to be spent by parents on their own kollel children. I’d say that these are the cracks in the facade of the kollel system- a phenomenon which I thought I took pains to separate from the institution of kollel itself, which I think is a wonderful thing. The kollel system is only 15-20 years old, and around now is its moment of reckoning. It is a system where what you do depends on what yenem does to an absurd degree. It is a system where nobody will change anything unless there is a community-wide move- if you can’t afford a fancy chasunah, don’t go shouting from the rooftops for takanos or gvirim to support, make a cheaper chasunah.
I’ll be thrilled if I marry the kind of man who would want to learn in kollel. I refuse, however, to buy into a system which suppresses individual choice and which is drowning the community under the force of its own demands.
I’m not saying they do- I’m saying the kollel system intrinsically has the power to introduce a form of marital stress. I’m not saying that when you weigh all forms of stress in a kollel family and in a working family, the kollel family will for certain have more- I’m just saying that, independent of other variables, having either a steady income or a sustainable and realistic idea of how to live are decently good ideas to help shalom bayis. Other random family-by-family things will always be present, but this is just something that I’ve seen in people. (I’ve also seen kollel people who are super happy, but these are usually the kind of people who would have moved to Lakewood in 1960- they want the lifestyle for what it is, not because it’s what everyone else is doing. That is a pretty big part of my argument.)
Differently than you do, perhaps- that’s probably a question you should answer here so you can get targeted replies. Everything here has been really general- everyone likes every school for SOME reason but nobody will know what you like unless you say so.
I didn’t really use the terms (very deliberately, as I didn’t know what you wanted) but the only time I used “modern” was in the capital-M sense, about Bruriah, as in a school with a Modern Orthodox hashkafa. (Which it is to an extent- it has many types of girls- but they lean more BY than other MO schools do. And I’m not sure they officially call themselves MO.)
Like, if you were to ask me, I’d say:
BYM=really yeshivish
BYR=really yeshivish
Breuer’s=yeshivish but not excessively so
Ateres=hanhala yeshivish, students not- “modern” but not Modern
MHS=weird mix- hanhala mostly yeshivish but not entirely, mixed BY and not student body
Bruriah=hanhalah mixed yeshivish and RWMO, student body RWMO
This may make perfect sense to you or you may vociferously disagree or you may think it’s gobbledegook- it’s helpful to know what your frame of reference is.
People have a really rosy idea of an ideal polygamy. I cannot think of any purely happy polygamous marriages in Tanach which didn’t contain some kind of angst due to the fact that it was polygamous (Avraham, Sarah and Hagar; Yaakov, Rachel, Leah, Bilha, Zilpa; Shlomo and his thousand wives; Elkana, Chana and Penina; the Pilegesh beGivah; etc.). The only person who is legitimately told that he can marry multiple wives- with strict regulations- is a melech Yisrael, which is possibly why Dovid’s marriage problems did not relate to his polygamy, IIRC. The prototypical marriage mentioned in halacha and in Tanach is between one man and one woman. Just because something is muttar doesn’t mean that it is a good idea. Besides, IIRC (and I could be wrong) in the time of R Gershom, the issue wasn’t with actual polygamy but with men not needing to divorce their wives in order to remarry. That’s not something we want happening again (even if we do have the heter me’ah rabbanim…).
Hey, you know what? Heter me’ah rabbanim! Put your theory to the test. Find a couple who would want a “sister wife,” find an older single who would want to marry the guy, and find 100 rabbis to sign agreement and you don’t need a whole big patchke of rescinding the whole thing.
As far as guys learning and then going into the working world later- this isn’t always “just as good” as going out to work younger, or at an age more comparable with the rest of the world.
My dad works for a large financial institution which has hired (over the 20+ years he’s worked there) many, many frum people in his department. Nearly all of them were hired before their 30th birthdays, and most of those were more than ten years ago. His job is hi-tech, and companies don’t want guys in their thirties in those sorts of jobs. They barely want the seasoned older guys who at least have experience, forget about the ones who are straight out of a quickie program. It’s all about youth in the industry, especially as you can get even younger and even cheaper employees in India. It’s nearly impossible to get a job in that kind of a company now straight out of a degree program above age 24-25, and it shows in the frum population at the company. While I can only give first-hand information about my dad’s company, he says that many of his friends say the same about their fields.
In addition, every year you work technically translates to more money you are worth. If you have two thirty-five-year-old men working at the same company in the same position, but one’s been doing it for two years and one’s been doing it for eight, the one doing it longer is getting paid more. He’s also going to be promoted first. All of that is money that is sorely needed in this ridiculously expensive frum society, and holding people back from the workforce is depriving them of years that could really help the financial securities of the wives and families for whom they signed a kesuba promising to support.
People have been saying that the kollel system has been predicted to die and has still survived, but it survives only through brute strength. It is ripping up homes and causing shalom bayis problems and agmas nefesh, both among beleaguered parents and parents-in-law who overextend themselves to support their children beyond their means or among the married children themselves who either are thrust into the world of kollel without fully understanding the sacrifice or are supported on an artificial, unsupportably high standard of living and then can’t sustain it once they are no longer being “helped.”
I think that kollel is a wonderful idea. I would have no problem if my future husband were to choose that lifestyle, as long as first we had a frank discussion about it and how we would support ourselves, with no expectations from society as far as standards or our parents as far as money (beyond, should it be the case, what they should choose to give). Just like so many things in the frum community, it is once it turned into a “system” (like the shidduch system, the seminary system, etc) that it turned sour.
(Wow. I’ve been gone from here too long. That felt good. 🙂 )
zdad: DL=/=MO (as you can see in the news…). Go to Kiryat Moshe or, indeed, the Shomron and you’ll see plenty of DL with peyos.
There are many types of DL in Israel.
Girls in Monsey tend to go largely to BY Monsey, Ramapo, Breuer’s, and Ateres in Monsey and MHS and Bruriah outside Monsey (I obviously know people who went elsewhere but not in particularly big groups).
Which elementary school your daughter goes to makes a difference. Some will encourage some schools over others and some will provide an edge to get into some schools over others (it’s harder to get into Ramapo from Ateres than from YSV, for example, or it was when people I know tried a few years ago).
If you want intellectually stimulating, you may want MHS. (As I basically already essentially outed myself on here years ago, I may as well continue and say that I went to MHS from Monsey, if you have any questions.) The hashkafa might not be what you’re looking for (while it is right-wing it is not explicitly BY and there are some non-BY girls, to be sure), and the types of girls there really depend on the year, it easily has better academics than any Monsey school. I really enjoyed it, though I’m shocked at how much elements have changed since I was there not particularly long ago.
Bruriah also is out of town, has great academics (though in a different way than MHS) and is probably the most “Modern-with-a-capital-M” school on the list. I have several friends who went there and loved it.
The next best academics is probably Breuer’s. They seem to be doing a really good job in that regard, and are known for it. It is definitely a Bais Yaakov but more chilled girls feel comfortable there. I know people there and they definitely like it. The class sizes are getting smaller and they’re getting more selective, apparently trying to become more BY (though I haven’t personally seen the ramifications).
Ateres is much more chilled. The academics are probably similar to Breuer’s’, with the addition of AP and more college-level classes (including a Touro partnership). The population of girls will depend on the year. It has BY hashkafos to whatever extent but the population is largely not BY. This is a fact, not at all a condemnation- you just have to know if it’s for you. It’s definitely very warm, very relaxed, etc. The dress code aspect is good (they copied it off of MHS, which has the same thing). I have a lot of experience with the school and it’s great for many but not for all (which is the same for any school, really).
I know very little about BY Monsey currently (everything I’ve been saying about the other schools comes from personal or close second-hand experience, which I don’t have with BY).
Same with Ramapo, except that I’ve heard that they’re trying to become much more yeshivish. But like I said, I have little to no first-hand experience.
Good luck! If you have any questions, feel free to follow up!
Neville: You’d be surprised- evolution is evolution in the eyes of yeshivos and either they’ll teach it without referring to it by name (in your example about vaccines- I was once talking to someone about MRSA and referred to it as evolution and the other person was all, “that’s evolution? That’s kefira!” Nope…) or literally will not teach about it at all. That said, though, I agree with charliehall that you don’t need to be adamantly anti-evolution bichlal, or anti-science, in order to believe in the Torah.
Gluckel of Hameln wrote a lot about arranging marriages for her preteen children- but they got MARRIED when they were preteens. Gluckel herself had gotten married as a very young teen.
Some things are probably better off having changed…
I’m currently a bio major at Stern. While I already took Bio 1 and 2 in high school (AP level), where we did learn evolution (and the teacher was basically “no arguing with me, this is what you need to know if you want to pass the AP, don’t dismiss it stam, I have some books, etc,” which I thought was a reasonable response). Upper bio courses rely on their being an understanding that evolution as a biological concept is in fact a thing. (And it absolutely is. You can debate about the macro, millions-of-years part if you’d like, but on a micro level it is a foundation of biology.) Evolution=/=denial of God, just BTW.
I don’t think that you will find anyone anywhere who will completely ignore evolution in an upper level bio course. They may tell students to disregard it, but it’s pretty fundamental in understanding how stuff works, even if it’s not constantly engaged with.
I agree with oomis 100%.
technical- the thing is, there really aren’t many places like that (I’d say except Machon Raaya, which was attended by many of my quirky friends who loved it). I said Michlalah because many of those quirky friends had it as their second option. I understand if it isn’t the right image (it very probably isn’t) but if in theory she were willing to compromise on image, there are actually amazing BY-type girls and fantastic teachers who she’d love. Class makeup depends on the year but there are usually pretty bug chunks of BY type girls. (A lot of them were my friends.)
I understand the “my cousins went there and if it’s for them, it’s not for me” approach, though- I said the same thing about BJJ and Bnos Sarah :).
Anyway, I wouldn’t dismiss it totally. But you’re right, it doesn’t seem to be off the bat what you’re looking for.
That said, I wouldn’t give up home on Machon Raaya at all.
Shopping: Yeah, I made the assumption that once I mentioned which Michlalah once it would hold in previous posts, which was kinda dumb of me :). Yeah, it’s still Michlalah Yerushalayim, still the one with the chutznik program, still the MICHlalah :). They advertise this program all the time. No links, but they have a website (along with a second website for the Anglo program, if it floats your boat) where you can probably get their office number, to find out about the Anglo-Israeli program (like I said, IIRC the coordinator is Mrs Shifra Goldstein). I really don’t know much about it or if they ran it this year but they often advertise it.
Michlalah. They advertise it every year on the bulletin boards but I have no idea how it works. If you have the college’s phone number, ask them about it. I know the coordinator last year was Mrs Shifra Goldstein. I’m not entirely sure how it works, but it’s worth checking out. Though if the Anglo program sounds good to you, that may be worth giving a try as well.
A good idea trying out newer sems- they may be more willing. I know that one Israeli I know of who went to Binas found it a lot easier to get in because it was immediately post-Peninim scandal and a lot of people canceled.
As long as you don’t mind a shell/sweater and/or skirt, I’ve had luck at Lord and Taylor, Macy’s, Nordstrom (super expensive, though), etc.
You don’t even necessarily need a skirt under anymore- longer dresses are coming back in. It’s amazing. (I’m lucky enough in this area to be on the shorter side, though…)
I was there often on Shabbos and it was very weird davening at a tourist site- but if you ignored it, it was awesome.
I was also there Yom Kippur (singing leshana haba… not at the kotel but as close as you can be to it basically without being there, which was a bit surreal), and while I was walking to davening before neilah, I saw a crowd of tourists sitting on the plaza with their cameras out, waiting to watch the Jews do their ritual. It was… interesting. I was glad I was davening indoors.
Oh, no way, nobody told me this was back!
When suddenly… the door opened and a flood of artificial turkeys came charging in, screaming for revenge for their brethren sacrificed for the sake of seasonally flavored lattes.
(Oh, and Ecuador’s lovely this time of year, thanks for asking.)
Shopping: I went to Michlalah (American for the Anglo program at R’ Copperman’s Michlalah, or HaMICHlalah as I often heard Israelis call it 🙂 ) and while I don’t think they’ve had Israelis in the American program for a while, it’s definitely something they’ve done in the past. One thing though (and I’ve heard this from several people) is that many sems will discourage Israeli girls attending as it can disrupt the program- most girls from out of the country stick together while an Israeli who can go home whenever will not necessarily feel part of the cohesive program. Could be shtuyot, but it’s what I’ve heard.
Apparently they also have some kind of a program for Anglo Israelis, but I feel like availability depends on the year, so maybe call them.
I have friends who went to Chedvas, though I’m sure you’re looking into that already. The dorms are apparently shvach, but they loved the program. I also know of Israeli girls who went to Binas and Machon Raaya, but I don’t know them personally so can’t say much about them. Apparently, one of them had to push her way in.
I also know Anglo Israelis who went to Ofakim and actually really enjoyed it, but I can understand if it’s not for you.
Good luck!
Joe, women physically cannot grow mustaches. (Unless they’re very unlucky, but there are ways to deal with that.) A woman physically can smoke- though both men and women who smoke are idiots who apparently have lived under a rock since the 1950s, when the first definitive studies on the horrendous harms of smoking came out.
Oh, I remember my kiruv krovim speeches in HS… I left five minutes in as I found some of what the speaker was saying and particularly how he was saying it breathtakingly offensive to the people to whom he was speaking. I told my principals I was never going back to one of those speeches. When I told them why, not one of them could argue with me. It didn’t stop them from hiring the speaker back, though.
I honestly don’t think I missed anything, even if I had liked the speaker. I find it difficult to be like R Meir and Acher and eat the fruit and throw away the peel, but somehow I don’t think it would have helped/have been necessary in this case.
Hahaha, as if Machon Raaya was Zionist…
If she’s flexible about being in the Bais Yaakov mold or not, then Michlalah might be a good fit. (It’s an amazing place and I love it so so much.) Michlalah DOES have its Zionist moments, if that matters to you (Yom Haatzmaut tiyul, etc)- I know you’re not the one who brought it up but it’s worth a mention. It really depends what her version of open-minded is- it’s easy to come out of there with Bais Yaakov hashkafos if you want to, but others may not see her that way and it sounds like she wants to be seen that way.
I know people at Bnos Avigayil who seem very happy, but I don’t know anything about the academic level except that the girls I know who are there are very bright.
Machon Raaya sounds like a great place for her! If she’s top of the class and if she has her sem coordinator/principal advocating for her she should have no trouble getting in. Many, many of my friends went there and loved it. It’s tricky to find a runner-up- from some perspectives Michlalah sounds ideal and from others a place like Binas, Nachlas, etc would seem better- I guess you’d have to balance the value of the Bais Yaakov reputation vs the openminded aspect. From how people describe Bnos Avigayil it sounds great, but I just don’t know enough about it to list it.
Wait… where did your post go?
Do you want an American program? Most Anglo-Israelis (as in, girls who made aliyah from Anglo countries, speak English at home, live in RBS, that type) went to Chedvas or Ofakim. I’m sure there are others as well. I went to Michlalah and they apparently have some sort of program for Anglo Israelis, but I’m not sure how active it is. I know that a lot of American seminaries don’t like taking Israeli girls because the fact that they live in Israel disrupts the seminary experience that the rest of the girls are having. (Though I definitely know exceptions, so…)
Wow, this is so random… I only popped in here to ask a question and you replied to my six-months-ago post now :).
Yes, she is. Did you meet her? Please don’t tell her I say hi, I’m technically (if not necessarily practically) incognito here :).
If you’re just asking in general, she did mention that she had some Shabbos problems with the NY tour seminar.
Seriously, I’ve been gone a while, but I didn’t think it was quite long enough that NOBODY would have made the Discworld joke yet…
Rundown on Yerushalayim public transportation:
There are bus cards called Rav Kavs- they are green and purple and will get you on any public bus in the country (while you may need to pay extra for different locations or distances on intercity buses, they can be loaded onto this Rav Kav). They can be purchased on buses or at the Tachana Merkazit. You can load money on them either on the bus or at machines at light rail stations. (I don’t remember ticket prices but it’s cheaper than NYC and you have free transfers for 1.5 hours.)
There are many local buses in the Geula/Meah Shearim area, as well as a bus station that has buses to probably 95% of the cities in Yerushalayim you’d probably be interested in visiting. There are two area buses, the 1 and the 3, which will take you directly to the kosel, but like people said they do go through an Arab neighborhood for a few minutes. 99.9999% of the time there is no problem, but I definitely understand preferring not to take them (especially as I was among the .00001% of people who did once have a problem…). It is also a quick walk from Meah Shearim to the kosel, but you will probably want really good directions or someone to show you around.
You’re also a quick walk from Meah Shearim to the center of town, including Machane Yehuda. Many stands have great hashgachas, including Eida Chareidis.
If you’re there for Sukkos, I also recommend going for Birkas Kohanim if only so you can just see the huge numbers of klal Yisrael all in the same place.
There are kosher beaches in Ashdod, Netanya and I’m sure other places as well.
There are several buses to Beit Shemesh, including the 415, 417, 418 and 420. They all go to roughly the same places but have different routes, so check with your hosts for the bus you should take. You will have to buy a ticket on the bus (though you can buy a return ticket to be put on your Rav Kav). If you want to go to Ramat Beit Shemesh, take the 417 specifically.
A good bus tour can be a great way to get a lot of sights in that you otherwise would have to get to yourself. Basically, sightseeing in Israel is either cheap or convenient. I’ve done both routes- the pay-for-a-bus-and-get-ferried-from-kever-to-kever route and the so-the-bus-to-the-nearest-town-comes-in-an-hour route- and for a tourist, a bus is definitely worth springing for. You can get basically anywhere by public bus (including Yam Hamelach like you mentioned) if you really want to, but you should probably look into more practical methods.
When in the Old City, don’t freak out but also stick to main areas unless you know where you’re going. While people there are really nice and mostly speak English, if you’re not familiar a lot of the streets look the same and can be really confusing.
Have an incredible time!
Joe: “all things equal”- it rarely is, is it?
Look, there are already schools that say what you do and focus more on limudei kodesh. No contest. All I’m saying is that there is no obvious, constant correlation between time spent on limudei kodhesh and its quality.
And as far as funding goes- I’m from Monsey, where families are taxed through the roof to pay for a failing public school system. I know what you mean. But it’s the principle behind basically everything in life- he who pays the fiddler calls the tune. Right now we have a system where there is public school available to those who want it and private school for those who have other wants or needs. Taxation at this point finances the public schooling which everyone is entitled to and, in some cases, benefits for private schools as well (all my years of in-county school, I received public bussing and textbooks). Besides, a really big part of the issue here is the separation between church and state, which, regardless of what various frum columnists have written recently, is still pretty darn important, considering some of what I wrote above.
And Joe, a random question (if it’s prying, feel free not to answer)- you’re very articulate, and you’ve talked in other threads of being literacy teacher or something similar, I forget. Do you not want kids to have the same skills you do? Many are unable to achieve that because of their schools, and it’s not easy to teach such things to yourself. How did you achieve your level of articulacy? If it is in fact self taught, I salute you, but I wouldn’t guess that offhand.
Abba_S: “I don’t want the yeshivas to get additional aid, rather give the parents a tax deduction or maybe a tax credit for tuition paid to yeshivas for elementary & mesivtas.”
That’s a separate question, rather it’s related to Joe’s thing about taxes and the voucher issue in some states.
Yes, parents do choose their children’s schools, but as the OP pointed out, kids can end up messed up by their parents’ choices (and yes, that’s normal, but this seems something basic enough that it should be avoided), and as I mentioned upstream, there aren’t always options depending on the community. People wishing to remain part of their communities can’t always make the decisions they’d like to make. My siblings went to school with several children of chassidim who sent their kids to schools where they could get a better education and then felt alienated from their kehillos as a result. Working to change attitudes about limudei chol (because that’s also a big thing- the kids are taught not to care about them, and therefore even the tiny amount of time allocated for them can be wasted) from the inside out can stop people from facing this sort of a choice.
Joe, I don’t think that’s true. Quantity might give more potential for quality but there is no guarantee of greater quality- I wouldn’t call it a “rule of thumb” in a practical sense. It depends more on what you do with your time, how skilled the teachers are… so many more factors than simply the amount of time allotted.
Purely anecdotal, but I’ve known people to switch their sons from more yeshivish elementary schools with very little secular studies to schools which emphasize secular studies more and then need to get their sons tutors for BOTH Judaic and secular studies so that they can keep up in their new yeshivas. And these are smart kids.
Abba_S: I know people who went to YTV 40+ years ago and by the sound of it the secular studies are very nearly better now than they were back then :).
As far as the separation between church and state- that is one of Ezra Friedlander’s big, BIG inconsistencies. On the one hand, he doesn’t want an audit or review in any way of the yeshivas out of fear that they will be dictated to by the government- on the other hand, he wants some kind of free, no-strings-attached handout gift-wrapped and handed over from that same government. That’s simply not how life works and, to be honest, it’s better that way.
Everyone complains about how the government in Israel tries to mess with the schools, and they can, because they’re governmentally supported. The tuition-based financing of our schools has led for a lot of autonomy that we might not necessarily have otherwise- look at UPK in frum schools and how it means that kids in preschool may not legally be allowed to learn the brachos for their lunch food. There seems to be a culture of “magiah li” which makes people think that money can/should come with no consequences. Let him make a cheshbon- would he rather get government money and have his kids’ schools teach about families with two tatties or would he rather get on his hands and knees and work for change for his kids’ schools himself, as seems to be the only conclusion possible to come to after reading his own article?
My general rule is that if Reg Shoe lets ’em in, they’re undead.
Vampires are undead.
Stern (YU) has a science and Judaism journal every year and people tend to write about very… interesting stuff- a girl once wrote about porphyria and how it might have related to Esav (IIRC) and, of course, used the vampire tagline. It was actually a very interesting essay. Those journals are fun to read.
DY: Still confused what the difference is between zdad’s and yours… so both are independent, free-market things which each seem to be objectionable (or at least talking points) to someone or another, and which each are quite easy to avoid.
nisht doesn’t have to go to that restaurant. zdad doesn’t have to buy heimishe-stickered Twizzlers. (I have a question as far as why the sticker means anything if they’re being made in the same way, but I don’t have an objection to anything but the upped price, and it’s true, I can just buy them at ShopRite.) But you guys seem to be making the same point about each of those certifications being something that someone is paying for in a free-market kind of way. For zdad’s point, the hashkafic implications of Uri L’Tzedek don’t even seem relevant.
And Joe: While I get your objection to your post about Shmuly Yanklowitz’s statement, there is a pretty pareve interpretation you can take out of it- kavod habrios. Technically speaking.
*ducks* I may have just thrown any remaining yeshivish street cred to the dust…
Never having been on a date, I can’t help with that, but just popping in to say congratulations! That’s great! I hope everything moves smoothly on the next one and that you find the right guy at the right time! It’s great that you had a good start…
Joseph: maybe parents want to remain part of their community but have also the skills to succeed in the secular world.
So the parents can either suck it up because their schools will stay the way they are (probably illegally) or send to other schools and be branded tuna beigels…
…or at least that’s how it works here in Monsey.
ETA: Plus, there are plenty of schools that have excellent Torah studies without stinting (okay, without stinting TOO MUCH) on the secular studies. They just don’t teach in Yiddish, if that’s a problem. It really, REALLY can be done…
Am I the only person who just thought that his essay said little worth repeating, let alone worth arguing?
He spoke vapidly about mesorah with little to nothing to back it up or even explain its relevance.
If Friedlander has even read Moster’s mission statement, he would know that (at least Moster claims) that he has parents on his side who are frightened that their community standing will be ruined and their children kicked out of school if they say anything- in direct contrast to his argument.
In fact, according to this argument, the only logical course of action for him personally is to rise up and start a grassroots movement to change the secular studies quality in the schools, isn’t it? He’s the one whose entire argument is based on the fact that Moster is the wrong person to tackle the issue and not that the issue is invalid.
Does he really think more funding will help? I and most people I know attended Jewish schools across many parts of the spectrum with adequate (at the very least) secular studies who have probably less funding than these schools have. Other schools manage it- if these schools want to, they can too.
He also shows himself to know little about the closing of the Volozhin yeshiva (as a poster on the article mentioned)- Volozhin was a yeshiva with students who were well educated and the particular restrictions posed by the Czarist government were far more draconian than simply adding secular studies- it would essentially turn the school into a college with practically no Jewish studies allowed at all. (Yes, I read My Uncle The Netziv.)
Look, blame the messenger, I really don’t care. But if you do, then come up with your own better solution instead of writing a beige article which says nothing but quoting old meaningless talking points.