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I went to a school a bit like that. It was interesting. Great in some ways, not in others. It’s much more unusual for girls, though.
Definitely boys’ schools court the better boys, as well, even if it’s not a stated policy.
I do NOT think that Trump is like Hitler (I found the hand-raising video creepy, but I’d never go that far) but I do think that some of the attitudes that helped Hitler get into power- a nation in distress, a perceived outer enemy (or two or three…) and the xenophobia coming with it, the desire to rally around someone who says aloud what people are only willing to think and glorifies nationalism and populism, dreaming of a return to some kind of prior greatness that they feel has been challenged by “the other”- have disturbing similarities. While electing Trump won’t be electing Hitler IMO, what scares me is that if Hitler were running, people probably would vote for him for the same reasons they like Trump.
The populism especially concerns me (and this is about Trump as well). It’s never been good for the Jews in any of the countries we’ve lived in. Ever. Not to be boring by quoting Neimoller, but still, the xenophobia that is directed at others could turn to us at any point, particularly given Israel’s complicated political situation in this day and age. (To be fair, though, I find it generally disturbing as well- I don’t think it should be directed against the others either…)
I mentioned things that are either more expensive in Israel for an inferior product (makeup) or just nice to have your regular brand for (sanitary products). This was also advice given to me by Israelis who prefer the American stuff.
I spent a year eating Telma cornflakes- I just prioritized what I felt was important enough to bring.
Actually, certain cosmetic/sanitary products, truth be told. (If this doesn’t make it through moderation, smh but I understand.)
Ziploc bags.
Netiv has the potential to flip a guy out. Be warned. It can really depend which shiur the guy ends up in. Torat Shraga, etc are similar but I think less so.
Just saying, TALK TO PEOPLE about each yeshiva. Not just on the internet. Since each yeshiva is different and good for different kinds of kids, it’s super important. There are serious mixed reviews on some of these places.
ToMo is NOT MO. Some MO guys go there, but it’s a yeshivish place. Everyone I’ve known who’s gone has been yeshivish already, not just flipping out- similar to Mercaz, etc.
KBY, Shaalvim and Gush all have mixes of boys- as do all yeshivos. But all of them have the capability for a really serious boy to succeed and grow. Shaalvim has more of a reputation for being warm, KBY has a reputation for being serious, Gush (kind of) has a reputation for being more open-minded, though that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. I don’t know much about Maale Adumim’s Anglo population.
(Before anyone asks- my information comes from sisters of attendees, Israel coordinators at MO high schools, and a very close family member who works for one of the above schools and through whom I’ve had a pretty close view.)
About that dog- that literally just happened with the family of someone I know. The mother really wanted a dog, so she bought one. A week later, she was advertising for a home for it, as she’d just been told that having a dog could ruin shidduch chances for her daughter. I was super shocked.
Track down the 2017 Seminary Spreadsheet (or whatever the equivalent is this year). It has a lot of helpful information.
And actually, shopping for some stuff now might be a good idea- you can get wintry clothing on sale as the season’s ending. But most stuff you can wait for (I started packing a week before, with most of my volume packing being the day of, though I did have some weird circumstances).
apy: It can also depend on the perceived quality of the kid and how badly the yeshiva wants him… I’ve known kids who have applied to the same mesivta where one was treated royally, was called a few days after his farher with his acceptance, etc and the other kid was treated very perfunctorily and got his letter a few weeks later- because they had a few GPA points different on their report cards. Seminaries are at least egalitarian about that sort of thing- they want the best kids, but they treat everyone basically the same.
DY: I can see your point 🙂
I just don’t think that the average costume is non-tznius throughout the year, so it worked for me…
I should really run under my usual assumption that if he says it I don’t agree, I suppose.
Oh my gosh, I agree with Joe.
I personally dress up. I find it really fun. When I was in Israel I toned it down a bit, but as a general thing I see no problem with it. I guess if you look at the day and think “hey, would I wear this on a holy day, albeit one where my male family members are all getting absolutely smashed,” you’re probably good.
apy: I’d like to think it’s not. If it’s a problem for shidduchim, it’s the same type of problem as any- it’s hard for many girls, whether they went to sem or not. Nobody pretends it’s a cure-all for such things to go to sem. As far as societal pressure- I didn’t have a lot of things I wanted when I was a kid. If my parents hadn’t been so pro-sem, who knows if I would have done that either. I know girls who weren’t able to go to sem for financial reasons, family reasons… everyone has different circumstances, and people are a lot more open, understanding and reasonable in person than they’re given credit for. My sister’s not going (she simply doesn’t want to) and while she gets some annoying comments from people saying things like “you should totally go to where I went!” people by and large don’t say boo.
wannnabegood: Some sems do brainwash. I’m not even sure whether that’s a bad thing or not, but it’s definitely true, as I know from going to a sem which is known for not being a brainwashing-type sem where girls still came home that way. It’s an environment where girls are isolated from their families and very open to new ideas- it’s the perfect environment for that sort of thing, and the teachers take full advantage (as many of them, from various schools for both men and women) admitted to me.
Just a word in favor of seminary…
I loved my year. I would 100% do it again. I grew in ways that I didn’t even realize until long after I left, and none of it involved brainwashing. I had an amazing time with my friends (and yes, had “chavayot”) while meeting and visiting many families (and buying them hostess gifts…). I learned an insane amount of Torah and gained teachers who continue to inspire me. I’m in college now and wish I were back, and while I was there I was scheming all these different ways that I might not have to go home. But oh well… 🙂
How was my year successful, while many people don’t feel that way about the years that they or their children have? A few reasons I can think of:
1) I chose the seminary that was right for me. It has a certain name- a fantastic one in many ways, but if I had cared about the yeshivish reputation I’d have dropped it like a hot coal. And then I wouldn’t have had the amazing experience I had- and I don’t think it would have happened in other schools (though I could have had an experience that was great in other ways). I picked the school over the rep and it was the best thing I did.
2) Probably the most important- my parents and I were on the same page every step of the way. They were actually the ones who encouraged me to go, so that I could not only learn (as I could do in any country, really) but also to get a year of Eretz Yisrael in a way I would be unable to otherwise in a supervised yet reasonably free framework. They were extremely supportive, especially once I realized how much I wanted it. With my sister, they did not convince her, and she’s working on other ways to go to Israel. We both agreed on the place I would go to, we agreed that I’d arrange to get a year of college credit, we agreed on a budget/spending plan, and we agreed that I would not be doing Shana Bet. They put no pressure on me about reputation, no pressure about shidduchim. And beyond that, once they had checked out their end and set up these ground rules, they were satisfied that they could trust me- which was humbling. They expected me to do the right thing and I hope I did. They knew the hashkafa of my seminary and expected that I had the potential to come out a certain way, theoretically. They knew how much it might cost and prepared for that- and indeed they often had me pay my own way on things they didn’t consider essential. But we were always on the same page, and that’s probably the main reason why we’re all really happy with how it came out.
Nobody has to go to seminary- it is a decision between the parents and, most importantly, their daughter. Everyone should have leeway to choose one way or the other. But to write seminary off as a wasteful extravagance is to write off those who make the decision to send not as a default but as a best option.
Didn’t see them, but they had a lot of books on Nach, so I wouldn’t be surprised…
Why don’t you contact Feldheim?
As far as the tangent above, only a small section of the seforim sale sells gemaras. They also sell other valuable books, such as the Lipa Schmeltzer Haggadah.
Both, that’s the point 🙂
(All right, sorry, I know this is the yeshivaworld, shouldn’t make jokes like that… been here too long.)
An observation (which could be totally off base- I’ve only been to Lakewood once and basically everything I know about it is from people who live there):
I think that this situation and the shidduch crisis can be compared in one aspect, which actually comes from Lakewood- everyone’s looking for the same thing.
Lakewood has been growing more and more diverse over time. But it’s still seen both in its eyes and the public eye as an Ir HaTorah, with a social system based on that, even as people move in from other places, change personally, etc.
Somewhere like Brooklyn, or Monsey (where I live), when parents are looking for a school, they look for one that matches their child, one that matches their hashkafa on an individual level. In fact, for many it’s the other way around- schools will accept them, but parents will choose other schools if they don’t feel that it’s the right fit. I would not have been happy in many of the stricter BYs where I live, and I therefore didn’t apply to them and didn’t go to them and felt no stigma because of it.
In Lakewood, everyone’s expected to be a similar type. There is much much much less of a spectrum, and what spectrum there is isn’t so much on hashkafa or values but on prestige, for whatever reason. Every school is expected to have basically similar values. The families too are meant to have similar values, whether they do or they don’t, and either way it’s a bad situation- if they do fit in the mold, then there has to be some kind of groping for a TINY difference to set people apart, because you really CAN’T fit every kid in the same school, and if they don’t, then they have to make it into the “right” schools so that people think that they do. Because it is a community ideally based on a certain ideology, there is precious little room for variance. And, therefore, there is much more at stake when it comes to getting into “the right” school because there is some kind of an ideal which must be worked up to, while in other communities, the ideal is more what works for you. (No, it’s not that simple entirely, there’s peer pressure everywhere, but not like THIS.)
Of course, the same thing happens in the shidduch system, as every girl runs herself ragged looking for the same kind of guy, as every guy fits into the same mold and spends nights looking through practically identical looking resumes of girls who also are squeezing themselves into that box, and the distinctions are like a chut hase’arah.
Thanks for letting me know.
I’m a cynic without being all that wise…
(and I’m young!)
Weird- looked it up and I guess you’re right. Totally doesn’t look or sound like him in that video, though… I guess when he drops the yeshivish persona and havara he transforms 🙂
FTR, I thought that the Skinny Pinny one was funnier and the Xtreme Loifer one was less offensive 🙂 … (not-thin person here- I think it was offensive, but while I don’t usually find offensive things funny, this one was hilarious, I guess because I can identify not enough that I’m insulted and enough that I’m “allowed” to laugh at it 🙂 )
Are you sure that was him? The Lose4Autism one definitely, but the guy in the Skinny Pinny one doesn’t look like him, and it’s not credited to him (but to someone named Binyamin Miller, who could theoretically be him- dunno his name- but given the evidence probably isn’t).
Hashemisreading: Nope. Waste of time. (If I took shabbos naps it might be different, but I currently have no reason to change.)
I went to a high school where the shabbaton was a huge fashion show and I go to Pesach hotels every year. I wear one outfit at night, one during the day. Bringing only one outfit is leaving too much to chance (okay, fine, it’s abandoning hishtadlus…) and more than that is (to me) excessive.
DY: I agree with CTLawyer, but either way, a menahel has a brief interview with candidates, not the years of study which a talmid chacham would have in the beis midrash of his rosh yeshiva.
ubiq: Sorry, I wasn’t clear. “Pulpit” didn’t mean a standard pulpit rabbi. More of a “lectern, shtender, table in front of the crowd” type. You know, anyone who may speak at an event.
Why does the qualification of rabbi come AFTER getting an actual shul position? Don’t you try to get rabbis who are already rabbis on their own merits?
I understand where you’re going with much of what you’re saying- that because these positions are positions of power and respect, they need to be given titles which the people under them will respect. But it works the other way around as well- people who are given the title will be given more respect, whether they deserve it or not. (While certain recent events may come to mind, I’ve been making this argument since long before that particular story popped up.) The title gives the person more respect in EVERY sphere, whether the bearer deserves it or not. A person should have the title which befits his/her stature, not which will simply AID his/her stature. Nobody will call a nurse or PA “Doctor” in order to accord them more respect.
As far as “rebbetzin”- it simply does not have the same significance. That is a fact. I understand that you disagree, but it’s true. While their two speeches may- MAY- be viewed in the same way, if someone were to hear “Rebbetzin X said that we should do Y,” there would not be the same reaction as if it were “Rabbi X said…” This is because, even if the word “rabbi” apparently no longer means anything, it still has the CONNOTATION of meaning something, which is why this is such a big deal. “Rebbetzin” has always been simply the wife of a rabbi, and therefore does not have the same significance. I see here that we disagree, though, so perhaps we should just agree to let it rest.
Sorry for the verbosity… I got painfully little sleep last night and it kind of shows… 🙁
DY: If they went through a smicha course, great. If they spent ten years in intense study in Lakewood or wherever, also great, I just wish that there was some way of saying, yes, I learned with X person, this person will attest to it and agrees to my adopting the title.
From life and context I will say that it would be weird if a cheder rebbi was not called Rabbi, but in theory, who cares? There’s no equivalent for women, and they do fine… but as it’s the accepted thing, and hopefully those who teach have put a decent amount of work into achieving a reasonably high level of scholarship, I’d just put them to the same standards as I mentioned above- someone who will vouch.
Ubiq:
You make a lot of assumptions. (Yes, even after I ignore the thing about female rabbis, when I’ve made it EXCRUCIATINGLY clear that I mean the exact opposite.) One of these is that the way that things are is the way that it should be, that anyone who takes up a pulpit can achieve a title. You make the statement, unironically, that “some may be more valid than others.” That automatically insinuates that there is some value to the title of rabbi and that some people who may not deserve it are adopting it. Is this something that should be happening? What does the title of rabbi mean to you?
See, here’s the problem- the title of rabbi implies a certain level of unconscious respect which the titles of rebbetzin and morah simply do not have. Some, like Nechama Leibowitz a”h, took the title of Morah and made it their own, and some rebbetzins have taken advantage of the title which marriage gave them to do great things. But neither of those has the same cache that the title of rabbi has- and for that reason, I at least viscerally understand what is going through the minds of women who call themselves rabbi, though I heartily disagree with what they’re doing. The title of rabbi has its own significance, both within the Jewish world and without, which lends prestige to its bearer. Women have no such title. If there is a reason for a man to bear it which he has earned, then that is understandable- and yes, it is also understandable if a woman, in theory, cannot earn it the same way. But for any man who chooses to be able to adopt it, solely because of his gender and stage charisma, that is patently ridiculous.
RebYidd: Was wondering that myself…
Lol! My friend just emailed me about something I wrote in the CR… though she’s known my screenname for a good four years or so so it wasn’t a tremendous shock to either of us…
I know the identities of two or three other posters as well, with the unfortunate tradeoff being that they know who I am also 🙂
(Just saying- I make it very easy for people with the right context to know who I am- just pretend you don’t notice, awright? Makes lives so much simpler 🙂 )
DY: That when a person is called by a title, that person should be able to explain how and why that title was earned. Transparency. When the listener hears this, he/she can then decide what to think.
Ubiq, again you’re missing my point.
The OP was making a specific statement- about men WITHOUT (the current equivalent of) SMICHA being called rabbi.
Women cannot get that kind of accreditation, per Rema, because in order to do so one must be theoretically qualified for Sanhedrin, which women are not. (Among other reasons.)
Men currently can get smicha, earning the title of rabbi. Fine by me.
The alternative to the position mentioned by the OP is men with NO qualification (besides theoretical charisma) being called rabbi. The title of rabbi is one with significance. Women have no equivalent title which they can don so easily. Allowing ANY man to use it would be an innovation, and one which is, indeed, unfair. If halacha says that a woman can’t do something, I can live with it. But this is entirely outside of halacha, and therefore there is no reason to consciously produce something discriminatory.
Bwahahahaha
Okay, that’s good 🙂
Guys often have very little supervision in EY, much less than girls do. (Much much less.) The year in EY can often be a huge waste, if not handled well, while staying in the US can mean staying in a more structured place, being more focused, and getting life moving more quickly.
ubiquitin: You missed my point.
My point is that there are at least previously-determined reasons why those other things differentiate. (If you’d like to get into a discussion of whether those are valid…) But this would be creating something new. To CREATE a double standard of whole cloth and excuse it by saying “well the Torah has loads of double standards!” is really not okay.
…not to give non-rabbis a title which they have not earned….
Hashemisreading: Sorry!!!! Don’t mean to be that irritating…
But if it helps, I know little about Lakewood (know almost nobody there) but my impression has been that you’re probably right 🙂
Joe: Increasingly large numbers of students are coming in from RCSD, but still not that many in relation to the numbers of kids in ERCSD. Also bear in mind the kids (for sure in Monsey, not sure about Lakewood) who take private buses (as they have in many chassidish schools), or that the Monsey total includes a decent number of kids attending other forms of private schools. I don’t know how many kids in Lakewood are going to non-Jewish private schools, but Monsey has a reasonably large number.
2scents: Depends on the block. Just like happened with my neighborhood around when my family moved in, neighborhoods which start off wholly non-Jewish or mixed can turn over REALLY quickly- and many of them are.
Ubiq: Not the same at all.
The halachic differences between men and women, for example, are laid out.
Running on the assumption that in fact modern-day semicha candidates (even if technically semicha was discontinued), as the Rema said, need to be eligible for Sanhedrin and must therefore be male (there are other reasons but that’s probably the most overarching one), the same applies here. So far so similar.
But here we’re not talking about someone who earns the title of rabbi. We’re specifically someone who did not get (the modern equivalent of) semicha. The rules are open at this point. Should any man be considered to earn this qualification? How is that right, if women can do the same things- none of which are part of the traditional way by which rabbanus is achieved- and not get the same title? When we are specifically speaking of ADDING privileges onto things which historically did not contain them, we can talk about fairness.
No, that’s the point. I don’t care what my title is, but I’d like to be judged on what I am now, not on where I came from. That’s all.
Basically, AFAIK, there is no chassidish community in Pomona 🙂
Hashemisreading: My point is that calling them a chassidish community is a misnomer. They are living a lifestyle which they find fulfilling and blend in upon many other families who are not ex-chassidish. They don’t have to be labeled by how they used to be. You mentioned something about an actual chassidish community in Pomona, which is what I was surprised at. To hear that many ex-chassidim are living among the many never-chassidim in Pomona doesn’t shock me at all- I know many of them myself.
If they are the same as chassidim- at what point does the statute of limitations end? My great-grandfather was an ex-chassid- does that make me a (really old, soggy and smelly) tuna beigel? Let people live their lives without past titles.
Joe, etc: My point wasn’t that women should be called rabbi. My point was only that it is a double standard that even when men and women fulfill the same function, only the man gets to be called by an elevated title he hasn’t truly earned. (And no, as RebYidd said, Rebbetzin doesn’t count.)
Right, yes. I was just providing a different perspective than Basmelechpenima’s (batteling the “there are no black sheep in Scotland” argument, if you will).
Joe: What about women?
Interesting- I hadn’t heard of a chassidish community in Pomona, though some developments are going up just over the line on the New Hempstead side of Viola…
Yeah, I definitely see chassidim a lot (though in other places!)- my point was much more that no one segment of the community is indispensable to a business unless they make themselves so, such as by appealing to that population.
fhw: What’s PBK? So confused… And by “tuna type” I presume you mean tuna beigel- which (if we’re going to be grouping like this, which I actually shockingly don’t think is necessary) I wouldn’t group with chassidim, as they tend to join other areas like Airmont and Pomona.
I learned an incredible amount on an intellectual and textual level in seminary. It is by far the most impactful thing I got from my experience. For me, if I’d heard hashkafa speeches all day I would have been miserable. The act of learning Torah is what made the spirituality really a part of me.
Well, maybe. It depends on the neighborhood. Meal Mart tried to open that chassidish-style restaurant in the Wesley Hills area and it bombed, because it was the wrong neighborhood for it. There are very few chassidim in the area to go. But there are many successful businesses in that shopping center which do fine without chassidish clientele.
It’s for sure easier to do well if you have things like chassidishe hashgachos, particularly in the 306/59 area. (Yogenfruz motzaei Shabbos is basically all chassidish couples.) But I’d dispute that in Monsey the only way to keep a place open and successful is to appeal to chassidim. I see all the time how really huge even the non-chassidish population of Monsey is, mostly because I live in a very non-chassidish area.
It’s been a long time…
And a lot of them were stam Aramaic names, just like we use Yiddish names now. And who knows what will be with those in a few hundred years…
Ugh I hate this. So so much.
In NYC, they build up. Obviously, that’s problematic, which is why people are moving. It’s valid to think that planned suburban neighborhoods should stay suburban, but I understand if you disagree. The main issue is that infrastructure- not just housing, but roads, parking lots, sidewalks, etc- is just not capable of keeping up. There is some serious sakanas nefashos, besides for the monstrosities. (They are also often not safe- the one built next door to where my grandparents’ house used to be has a huge courtyard, below street level, with no railing. At least one car has gone off the road and through someone’s window because of that. People are taking advantage of the housing boom and being slapdash, which can produce awful results.)
(Mostly Monsey here, as it’s where I live 🙂 )
Schooling is hard in both places. The more on the modern side you get the easier it is, but even so, even the more moderate yeshivish places, like YSV, are very crowded (there is a freeze on the number of classes in the boys’ school, and it’s mostly siblings and children of alumni). The chassidish places are apparently impossible.
Home prices depend on the neighborhood. I know little about Lakewood, but in Monsey, housing has been getting more and more expensive, especially in the main areas. Home prices on my block, for example, have quite literally tripled over the last fifteen years. In some areas they’ve quadrupled. If being near shopping and many minyanim is important to you, be prepared to shell out. There are outlying neighborhoods which are cheaper, though, so if that’s an option for you, look into it. House sizes depend a bit on the neighborhoods, but there can also be a variety of sizes in the same neighborhood, depending on when it was built- some blocks are developments, some are older…
Commuting times to where? Monsey is doable to Manhattan, Lakewood is much farther.
I believe that you need cars for both. Monsey has very limited public transportation largely dependent on neighborhood- there are several areas where public transportation is a reasonably viable option, but it’s really not common.
Monsey’s also very safe. (Ramapo was the second safest town in the country in 2011!) There has recently been some crime, but it’s still bH very rare.
We’ve got public parks, decent (if crowded) infrastructure, mandated school busing, the Palisades Mall, some nice new restaurants… it’s a cool place 🙂
There was a pizza shop, though I think it came a little later. It was definitely there in the 80s and 90s, when my uncles worked there. (Same location as Shelly’s 1.) There was definitely a pizza truck also, of course.
Yes, Bais Midrash Elyon was definitely the beginning kernel, like I said, of the more steady, year-round presence in Monsey.
And BY Monsey has definitely been around for a long time… though a lot has definitely changed over the years. My neighbors don’t even believe what it was like back when my mom went there, or even before.
And yes. I don’t care who lives in the houses, but when I drive down 306- or even formerly quiet, residential blocks- and due to the congestion and huge numbers of families on tiny streets I am eternally scared that I will ch”v hit someone, it’s really frightening. These tiny cul de sacs were not built for 50+ families to live on. I do love, though, how the increased population does bring more and more different types of businesses here.
birdson: Not cynical, but realistic (which is what we all say…). I went to Michlalah (which, while obviously not a hesder yeshiva :), is still an American program in an Israeli institution) and we all knew that our money was supporting the rest of the college. Our tuition was many times more than the Israelis would ever have dreamed of paying.