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ubiquitin: Of course cancer is devastating- but I think we’re both right. You’re looking at it in the aggregate, where cancer- the group of illnesses- is everything you say it is. I’m looking at it from the point of view of someone who has cancer or someone who has kidney disease. You can’t necessarily say, sight unseen, which one is suffering more.
And because this subject is weirding me out (which horrible, devastating disease is worse?), I think that I’ll cut this short. If you have anything else to say, feel free to have the last word.
When you spend a limited (by necessity) amount of time looking into someone who would be exactly the same as the person on the next resume if not for the different name, symbols become important.
Which I think is an issue with the shidduch system more than a vindication of shallow people. But that’s apparently just me.
oomis: That’s pretty much the case with 99% of harmful words (I think I touched on this in a different thread with LAB)- they may, in themselves, have no intrinsically insulting or harmful meaning, but the meaning given to them by the majority becomes pervasive and sticks. After all, it’s the majority of consumers who define what you say, not the writer. Which I think is one of the coolest things about language, but that’s not the point.
Think about curse words- actually, don’t think about curse words, but if you WERE to, half of them are just things from the Bible that we mention whenever we want in Hebrew because to us, what’s the problem? When something like that becomes a curse word in another context, the original meaning may as well just curl up and die, because it’s irrelevant. Context is king.
It’s like the whole thing “sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me”- um, words themselves are just combinations of letters, but if you know the context, the meanings behind them and how they were meant to be understood in the current setting, they can be painful. There are plenty of pejoratives for Jews- half of them don’t mean anything that offensive when you just pick apart the etymology. Would you get insulted if someone called you by one of them? At the last vote, that is an insult, so unless you want to reframe the word in the minds of every English speaker, that’s what it is right now.
And that’s why, IMO, using “yeneh machalah” is harmful. It’s not just a way of getting around saying the C word- it’s a new word, by common consensus, that sounds really creepy and threatening, a word that just inflates the thing it was meant to obscure until it’s now twice as terrifying.
ubiquitin: You obviously don’t know the boy at my relative’s dialysis center who has been on dialysis since he was three and will be for the rest of his life. The point, though, is that while obviously a global look at the situation is helpful, as it helps establish needed organizations like RCCS, on a case by case basis, which is what, quite honestly, scares me, there are plenty of diseases as harmful. I AM NOT DIMINISHING THE SUFFERING OF PEOPLE WITH CANCER. Cancer does NOT need to be the biggest, worst thing (I’m sure cancer sufferers agree with me) and there are other terrible diseases as well.
Which is a moot point, as why would ANY disease NEED a euphemism?
ubiquitin, LAB: True, but there are many, many diseases with just as low or lower survival rates and just as much or more suffering. Why single out cancer? Simply because of its pervasive nature? The number of cancer sufferers does not inform the individual person’s suffering (in fact, it may actually help because it would lead to more resources to help)- look me in the eye and tell me that, say, ESRD is not “as bad” as cancer.
But only cancer gets that “bogeyman” distinction.
I mention ESRD because a close relative of mine has suffered from it for many years. When people would talk about it all hush-hush and not say what was actually going on, I was completely freaked out- all those blank spaces in my knowledge were filled with nightmares. As those blank spaces were filled with real, hard fact, it became a lot easier for me to grasp- I now know that as devastating as it is, it’s a part of life, and therefore potentially solvable and finite. They’re not a ghostly shadow, scary and ten times bigger than the thing it makes a shadow of. It’s like Voldemort vs He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named (sorry, best example I can think of off the top of my head)- which one is scarier?
LAB: But you don’t need to let them name you. That’s what I was saying- if the word they made for you doesn’t mean what you want it to mean, just use a different word.
I wouldn’t call myself a homophobe. Make of that what you will.
Don’t let them decide what you are. Invent a better word. Because since the meaning of language is in the eye of the beholder, you will be misunderstood, unless you don’t care.
What do you like to do?
I tried Tomchei Shabbos once- most BORING experience of my life. I just don’t like taping cardboard boxes, and I don’t feel bad about it because chances are someone else does, and really, there are things I’m much more suited for, like helping with special needs kids and adults.
Play to your strengths. Not that it’s not a chessed if you don’t enjoy it, but chances are it’s more of a chessed if you do- you’re likely to put a lot more of yourself into it.
LAB: For sure. As they’re the ones who give legitimacy to language (meaning is in the eye of the beholder), don’t bend to the propaganda! For better or for worse, the ball is in their court- there’s no need to let them define you.
It’s kind of sad that when I first read The Gift of the Magi, I was like, “this old plot again?” because I’d read so many Jewish stories with that format already.
Vogue: You too with the inserts? My shoe inserts always bunch up in my flats. The problem is that heels cause a whole host of other problems so I just end up with smushy insoles instead. But the rare times I do wear heels, the insoles work SO much better.
LAB: Strangely profound.
LAB: HomoPHOBE and xenoPHOBE are a bit strong, though…
I have two friends with mothers who converted. One of them was at a shiur and she was hearing all this stuff about how important yichus is, and how it’s such a major deal in shidduchim, and it’s just not the same when you have a convert or baal teshuvah, and tzaddik ben tzaddik, and all that kind of stuff. She came out of there looking like she was about to cry. It happens to be, she has married siblings who found great matches. I just told her what jfem mentioned about a built-in filter, because it’s totally true. I wish I had one like that.
Actually, when I think about it, being overweight and not pretty, I DO have a built in filter. Handy.
I’ve gotten stuff at the man with the truck… it was when I was a lot younger though.
If you don’t mind an investment, Land’s End stuff lasts FOREVER. I spent my whole childhood in their dresses and my family has passed their tshirts down through multiple sisters, cousins, etc. and it just stays looking new. Hanna Andersson is similar though not quite as long-wearing.
“who said that cancer, if you think about it, is ONE CELL IN THE BODY THAT DOESN’T GET ALONG WITH THE OTHERS CUZ ITS DIFFERENT.”
Not exactly- more like one cell that grows more and more until it takes over the whole body with itself, which is another interesting point to ponder. Very similar, but more of a “keeping up with the Schwartzes” thing IMO.
Or one cell that doesn’t recognize boundaries and keeps going and going…
This is turning into gematria. I’m starting to agree with jfem on this one (and MCP, that apikores bit was SO out of line) and with whoever mentioned about the fact that yes, maybe you can do tikkunim or whatever but there is NO direct cause->effect chain.
MCP: After hearing all of the abuse, why would someone who actually wears stilettos and would have experience and advice actually come out of the woodwork? 🙂
oomis: Of course they’re not ACTUALLY orthopedically healthy. I’m just saying that they are compared to the heelless 6-inch heels I saw on Pesach. (I’m not kidding- they’re six-inch heels but they just cut out the heel so that you’re standing on your toes. Insane.)
The fact is that shorter shoes (between 1-3 inches) are just not really considered “cute”- and because that’s the case, people don’t make “cute” styles in those heights. It’s a vicious cycle. Personally, I wear flats usually because I physically can’t wear heels above a certain height. If you want to go any higher than that (and I, being oomis’s height, really do sometimes), it’s kind of hard without buying toe-busting, foot-mutilating, “I’m-pritzusdik” high heels.
Though, to be fair, I’ve seen very tasteful high heels, so don’t blast Vogue for that necessarily. If you have good balance and the shoes aren’t really flashy it’s 100% possible to pull off.
I don’t have advice for you, Vogue, but wear your shoes in good health!
interjection- I’m wondering if you’re someone I know… 🙂
OOM- The number of people I know who are going to Machon Raaya defies description. (Okay, so it’s fourteen, but still.) I have no idea whether they’re Pratchettians, but I’ll probably apply anyway, so chill :).
Happens to be that I do love my high school, but if I do go to sem I want to USE it.
A lot of people just need (or, to be honest, just like) having a couple added inches in height. I would wear heels except that I already have orthopedic problems- I wore them to my cousin’s wedding and it felt so cool to actually be able to see over people’s shoulders. They can also sometimes give a more polished, sophisticated look to an outfit than flats can.
One problem is that “in” heels now are usually either espadrille-style wedges (average about 5″) or stilettos- shorter and more sturdy heels are not really being worn very much. You’re limited by what they sell. Four inch stilettos are actually very chilled and orthopedically sound compared to what I see people wearing.
mdd: True, but I was taking “unaffiliated” at face value. Of course, if the people already identify with, well, I guess a way to put it could be Judaism as opposed to Yiddishkeit, then your job is made a lot easier.
It’s if Judaism is an absolute nothing in your life (as was my probably unfounded assumption) that you’re REALLY in trouble.
Once one has some form of Jewish identity this all becomes a lot easier.
LevAryeh: that is EXACTLY what I was thinking. I just didn’t have time to write it.
Why should someone who isn’t affiliated be proud to be Jewish? Why be proud of something you demonstrate that you couldn’t care less about?
The ONLY thing I can think of is what you mentioned about accomplishments. It’s like when an alumnus/a of your school from ten years ago goes on to do something famous and every time you hear their name, you’re like, “Wow! That’s so cool! I KNOW that person!” even though you two never met in your lives. You just went to the same school ten years ago, but the school is a community you identify yourself with so that you identify with other members of the community. But I think that’s coming at it from the wrong angle. First you need to establish the connection, the feeling that it’s important that I’m Jewish just like he is. If Judaism isn’t an important part of your life in the first place, why would I care about or identify with someone who’s Jewish?
So the first step would seem to be to get the people to identify with being Jewish. But how do you do that? By making them proud to be Jewish. And so the cycle continues.
But either way, nfgo3, I so agree with you, happens to be.
That’s womyn to you, Sam2.
interjection: What sem did you go to?
(I’m a high school senior)
Bringing in someone like Rabbi Mechanic won’t help kids who actually have doubts. If you have a kid (like in the “why I’m still frum” thread) who has logical problems with Judaism, it’ll take a lot longer than one speech because the kid, in a search for answers (and yes, the kids WANT answers, in many cases- it’s not just trying to be rebellious), has already heard it all.
Torah613? But wouldn’t PBA leave the CR if we elected a maharat?
Eli51: But if the rabbanim are only relying on the guy getting signatures for their information before signing a letter that will influence the way people vote….
….that’s scary.
Sometimes, it’s nice to live in Monsey where the elections are fixed before you ever hit the polls.
To whomever mentioned that saying Good Shabbos can lead to flirting: does that mean that when I say Good Shabbos to my father’s friend, a guy who’s married and has seven kids and three grandchildren, that can lead to flirting?
My mind honestly rebels.
There are gedarim and there are gedarim for gedarim and there is a concept of going too far. If you flirt with a girl, it’s NOT because you went to say Good Shabbos to her- just a shot in the dark here, but could it possibly be vice versa?
I don’t think they’re alike at all.
I think he might know my cousin’s husband or something- definitely a real person.
Okay, not a reference, but I was just rereading the thread, noticing that the Neverwhere radio play was mentioned, and feeling duty-bound to report that it is available on YouTube.
It is amazing. Mamesh amazing. Really good distraction from packing for camp.
tzup: So what do YOU think happened? 🙂
I’m going to camp and when I get back I’ll be interested in seeing what has happened… you have all been warned.
“Writer Soul, even in Monsey I get strange looks. Which honestly, makes it even more fun for me.”
EVEN in Monsey? Depends where you are. My neighborhood is VERY yeshivish.
Don’t buy the stereotypes 🙂
“‘I’m fine with people ignoring me’
“I’m not – whether it is ignoring you OR me.”
Well, if they think it makes them more frum, that’s their business… 🙂
Shopping: Then it’s you, me and that guy, because I’m me. Cogito ergo sum.
Then again, that’s probably exactly what I’d say if I were a troll trying to convince you I wasn’t, so take all this however you want.
Ooh, whoops, that was meant to be gefen. NO idea what happened there…
wdik99: For sure, but if the pain is still there, having it scared out of them won’t get rid of it.
A story like that would need to be only one in a large chain of events.
Thanks!
It would be funny for me to wear the same frames for four years and then suddenly replace them as soon as I get contacts… but still, I will be wearing them, especially by school, so I probably will :).
writersoul: I think I meant scare in a different way. Yes, it’s sad, but is that why I’m making up? If that’s the ONLY reason why, because I’ll feel guilty if I don’t, then I’ll just keep resenting it.
I’m not saying that I think that this is a be-all-end-all solution for you, just that people seem to think it is sometimes in the stories like the one in Mishpacha. I genuinely don’t get it.
I am proud to say that I am only one poster. (Being more than one would just be a headache.) I MIGHT believe that everyone else was just one person behind all the screennames if not for the fact that honestly, what would be the point?
oomis: Yes, that’s it (I’m a teenager). I emphasized “women” because you said “young” :).
I think it’s just a basic menschlichkeit issue when it’s with people of the same gender. I mean, I guess it depends on where you live (you bump into way more people in Brooklyn than in Monsey) but it’s still just a nice thing to do.
I’m fine with people ignoring me (I mean, if they ignore me, I ignore them 🙂 ), but my only thought about the guy crossing the street was that baruch Hashem there wasn’t a car at that moment…
I’m not sure whether or not to be insulted…
Kidding. 🙂
Probably a bunch, but no time or patience to type out.
Luna: Scarborough Fair is cool :). I don’t really love Simon and Garfunkel’s music (though my father is trying to convert me) but that one’s really good.
My first music was an instrumental cover (cello, piano, and, I think, electric violin) of a non-Jewish song. I have no idea which. It just sounded AMAZING. I think I’m in love with string instruments.
Now the first song I PLAYED was Sunrise Sunset. It’s really pretty on the flute :).
oomis: I have the OPPOSITE problem: when I say good Shabbos to women they kind of pretend I don’t exist. It’s disheartening. Aren’t they the ones who are supposed to be modeling proper manners to the rude youth of today?
In my neighborhood the best bet when it comes to saying good Shabbos to men is to see if they say it first. If the guy’s a friend of my father’s (or possibly MCP 🙂 ) he probably will, and then I reply. Usually, though, they either ignore me or, in one strange case, switch sides of the street. That was weird.
Fair point, OOM.
Cocoa and a sing-along by the harmonium?
Nothing against gefen, just something I think every time I read these kinds of stories and don’t get-
Do people reconcile from hearing scary stories of how people die from machlokes? If so, do you really just want people who are scared into it? How much can that really help in the end to RESOLVE the conflict- and that’s important, because otherwise who says there will be peace in the end?
I only recently got contacts (after a lot of nudging from my mom) and it’s fantastic. I can actually SEE in the pool! (Both of my eyes are >6.00, so it REALLY makes a difference.) I was wearing my glasses on the fast and I barely recognized myself in them. (Which reminds me, I should get new frames. My old ones are AWFUL.)
There’s also this cool thing I discovered while wearing them. Peripheral vision, I think it was… cool stuff. 🙂
frum girl 101: If the guy can’t stand the brunette look, why would he even think of marrying one in the first place?
OI: Ohhh, gotcha- glad to hear it :). I’m more shutting up because either I’ve got nothing else to say, I’m not in the mood of saying it or I don’t have time to say it because I’m supposed to be packing for camp. I’m really not sure which right now. And chill about haranguing people- you’re fine. I thought I was the one who needed to be nervous about that…
oneoutofthree: I actually share an email account, and that has happened to me- my friends have chatted/emailed me when I wasn’t home but my sister was using the email account and then gotten insulted when I didn’t immediately reply.
Actually, it’s also a good excuse for when I’m on but I don’t want to answer- though I don’t give excuses. If I don’t want to answer why should I?
OI: Sounds great :). My only issue was really the weight thing, but I’ll shut up about it.
Happens to be I have a great block for this kind of thing (the one time we had an emergency like that, the only people who came out were the ones who helped us- admittedly it was an electrical box fire at two in the morning and I live on a quiet street, but still), but one thing really scarred me. My grandmother has regular (think a few times a week) hospital visits for her medical condition, and one Sukkos, when they were at my cousin’s house, the ambulette service we usually use didn’t show up in time to take her. My grandfather was forced to drive her in on yom tov- you could see that he hated to do it- and a bunch of kids outside playing were all standing by the driveway and staring, talking about the frum yid who was driving on yom tov. I was sickened.
Luckily by me that’s not the norm, and much more often people are really there to help.
No, only Klatchian coffee REALLY works.
Warning, though, you’ll be very, very knurd after.
Boy, I’m glad that I never picked up any habits with withdrawal systems when you stop for a bit… I mean, I thought that my music withdrawal was bad.
OI: It’s hard for me, personally, to judge short guys when I’m 5’2″ :). I’m just pointing out that girls do have feelings just like guys do, and point is absolutely taken that guys have feelings like that. Happens to be my family was just talking about this and I’m actually the one who got the short end of the gene stick- both of my parents are much taller than I am (NOT a common occurrence) and as I mentioned, my sister is 5’8″.
Point is, I was NOT trying to be mean. I was just pointing out (as I’m sure, upon reflection, that you knew already, so it was probably redundant) what girls think on the matter. And yes, jfem02, there are definitely girls who marry shorter guys (usually tall girls, like one woman I know who said, “What was I supposed to do? Marry someone taller than me and have my kids be giants?” Really tongue in cheek, but point taken), but not that many, which means that you and your future kallah are going to be absolutely made for each other :). I hope I don’t seem mean or snarky.
OI: Everyone will understand when you say you want a shorter girl…
For better or for worse, the predominant image in people’s minds is that while height is inborn and genetic (barring HGH and malnutrition), weight is something that is the other person’s fault. When you are rejecting a heavy girl, people feel, you are blaming or condemning her for something which may or may not be her fault. It’s like the popular image is that a heavy girl has something wrong while a short guy has whatever kind of genetics. Whether this is 100% logical isn’t the point- it has some truth in some planes and therefore many people feel uptight about it. I know I do, sometimes…
charliehall: A lot depends on where they were living. One rov in New Orleans (R’ Illowy? The name sounds familiar) gave a whole drasha about this- but then again, he lived in New Orleans.
R’ Morais lived in Philadelphia.
Your location can influence the way you think, especially during a time of war.
Were there any rabbanim who lived in the South who protested slavery? Probably not, but it’s difficult to expect them to have said anything in an environment like the antebellum South, which obviously PERPETRATED this kind of treatment and weren’t kind to those who protested it.
HaKatan: I would answer my own question, I am sure, in a very different manner than you would.
Oooooh, why did I open this thread…
But while I’m here, masochist that I am, I’ll mention that while I’m breaking my fast on homemade pizza (!!!!!!!!!), the one thing that I ALWAYS have right after a fast is hot chocolate. If I drink cold water too soon after a fast it hurts the roof of my mouth, and the whole chocolatiness is just mamash madhim after the whole fast.