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Tell you what: personally, I’ve never really had any particular urge to learn gemara (my dad asked me if I wanted to when I was younger and I kind of wrinkled my nose and said it sounded too complicated), but I’d feel a lot better about not being able to (by the system, at least) if someone would give me a reason why. The discussion recently came up in a class in school led by a very well-known rav who was asked the question and said it wasn’t part of the mesorah. A girl then responded that until the time of Sarah Schenirer it was just barely part of the mesorah to teach women any Torah in-depth at all, but now it’s acceptable- would gemara ever gain that level of acceptability? He looked very uncomfortable and completely skirted the issue (which I’ve discovered usually entails repeating whatever was said already in an authoritative voice and then going into a whole convoluted mashal that doesn’t really apply in the hopes that by the time it’s over we’ll have forgotten the question already).
If the girl’s point was incorrect, then why didn’t he say so? If she was right, then why not give some other answer if there is one?
Is there a real answer besides mesorah and the whole thing about women’s brains working differently that we’ve chewed to pieces on that other thread? If women want to, why can’t they?
RF: I could be misjudging people, but most of the men I know who wear black hats aren’t bedavka doing it because they’ve looked up the halachic sources and decided it was the right thing- they do it because that’s just “what you do.”
RF: I could be misjudging people, but most of the men I know who wear black hats aren’t bedavka doing it because they’ve looked up the halachic sources and decided it was the right thing- they do it because that’s just “what you do.”
RF: Getting in does not mean very little. Harvard Law’s acceptance rate is about 15% and its graduation rate is 99%- meaning that her odds of either happening are roughly the same assuming she’d accept the offer.
There are plenty of other fantastic, Top 14 law schools- someone above mentioned NYU, which can be a bonus if only because of location. Others include Columbia (a good choice for a similar reason), Cornell (where I believe jfem said her husband goes- correct me if I’m wrong), UPenn (also lots of frum Jews), etc. Harvard is not the be-all-end-all. In fact, for what it’s worth, Yale is ranked above Harvard.
As far as the $200 is worth, that’s precisely why I didn’t do it. Obviously the people who did it didn’t worry about that. The fact is that those who did had the stats to at least be in the running for Ivies. (One of them, IIRC, applied to Columbia and actually ended up going- this was a while back so I could be confusing it.) Face it, people have different priorities and different outlets- exceptional SAT scores aren’t exactly exalted in the frum community.
PBA: That would be a first…
I’d say at the very least to take an SAT or ACT if you didn’t already and see what happens. If you really don’t want to then perhaps do as Vogue says and try a community college.
Did your high school or sem advise you at all (even if only to tell you to go to Bulka or burn in gehennom)? Take the time to make a list of your financial parameters, your high school GPA, the HS classes in which you got the best grades, the subjects you most enjoyed, and what careers you’ve envisioned for yourself over the years. That can help you figure out whether you should go to college at all, if so what type of college, if so for what kind of degree, and if so which college/type of program.
RF: If she didn’t want to go to Harvard then she lost nothing- the fact that it’s so selective is a point in her favor because, after all, she GOT IN. Turning it down is her prerogative.
I have known frum girls who have applied to Ivies just to see if they can get in (I considered it but I decided to save my parents the $200 even though they said it was fine). While most did not get in, as the acceptance rates tend to be in the single to low-double digits, the ones who did turned them down because they were just satisfied knowing that they COULD HAVE gone.
Coming from someone who makes pizza on a pita in the toaster oven, I’d say appreciate what you’ve got.
If that many frum people go there, where’s the prestige?
If it’s some crummy place like Harvard Law where any guy off the street with a BTL can get in, then I don’t see the point.
Besides, isn’t the whole point of that that you then have it hanging up in your office behind the desk to intimidate all the clients? Usually in some archaic language that nobody can read?
If you’re looking for alternate places to keep it, I know someone with two advanced degrees from a very prestigious college (almost as good as Touro) who keeps her diplomas stacked in the corner of her daughter’s room.
Hey, I SAID it was easy…
(Though to be honest, I wouldn’t have guessed it before I went to camp- before that, I only knew the chorus. If I’d done that, you could have rightfully kicked me out of the thread for contempt.)
Harder one, then (or at least I think so):
“Their hearts are filled with emptiness,
Confusion takes its toll…”
If you know any people taking the class with you, maybe try studying with them or getting their notes. I’ve both studied with people who needed help and taken people’s notes when I needed help, and from both sides I know that it can sometimes be embarrassing to ask but that people are usually very willing to give.
I’m still in high school so luckily I don’t have 150-page quizzes (YET- there are some teachers I wouldn’t put it past), but I know that what can help is, as someone mentioned, highlighting key terms. When I do that I then make a list of these terms and make sure I know them cold. Then I read through everything again and I tend to understand things a lot better and make connections between ideas a lot more easily. If you’ve gotten your quizzes back, you may want to familiarize yourself with the content and format of the quizzes to make sure that the way you’re studying is effective and to figure out what type of knowledge is most often needed (I’ve found that by me, for multiple choice tests terms tend to be the parts most often tested, for example, which is helpful because you can then just get familiar with everything so that you can recognize it and not have to straightforwardly memorize detail, and that for fill-in quizzes the questions tend to focus on bigger topics, which means that I generally skim over the tiny details. Of course, this is not universally applicable- these are just examples of ways that knowing the format of quizzes can help you study effectively). Also, if this is such a standard class, there are probably sites like SparkNotes with good notes and explanations of ideas. The only time I’d say that SparkNotes is a bad idea is if you read it INSTEAD OF reading the book assigned in lit. In addition, okay, but you do miss out on details and the general learning experience if you only read the SparkNotes. In other classes, though, they can be very helpful- I’ve filled in gaps in my knowledge with their notes in math, poli sci, bio, psych, history, etc.
I hope I’m helping! Bear in mind that learning disabilities are not one of my nisyonos- my methods may not be suited to those who do have them. Perhaps a special education teacher or even just a web site or support group can suggest ways that people have used to study well and effectively.
Hatzlacha!
VM: Maskimah. Either that or TAOM’s emunah was stronger than she thought- an idea I can definitely understand (TAOM, keep reading).
TAOM: Good luck in your new ventures! I’m sorry to see you leave- besides for your seeming like a very sweet person, one I’d be thrilled to know in real life, every mature teenager (like me 🙂 ) on this site is a benefit and a gift (in my utterly unbiased opinion)- and the maturity is evident just from this post. What you write is absolutely a fantastic point- it was one of the several reasons I took a hiatus a while back but I ended up returning anyway. I’m not always sure it was a good idea to come back. Maybe the reason I’m still here is because I wasn’t so sheltered in the first place, I don’t know. But I absolutely respect you for making a decision and sticking to it (though if indeed you are sticking to it, you’ll probably never see my response here…).
We’ll miss you!
DaMoshe: Was it? I haven’t been here for a while…Sorry :(. It just happened to be on in the kitchen as I typed.
So now an easy one to make up for it 🙂 :
“We learned in a dark, frigid cellar…”
VM: That’s actually very logical in some ways.
Think about it:
-We already know a LOT about Judaism. We’d probably have to learn some Gemara and more Halacha, but we’d be starting from a higher place.
-Services are Sunday- we could be home for a regular family Shabbos and then just go to work Sunday.
-Pretty good money. (Probably less now that it’s dying a bit, but still.)
-For the rest of the week, a flexible schedule- we could even get other jobs.
My grandfather says that we should all do exactly that and become Reform rabbis to support husbands in kollel.
I got a mailing from JTS from Student Search Service- maybe I shouldn’t have thrown it out… (Conservative probably works the same way, no?)
Alternatively, I can become popa’s BFF and be a rabbah. My halacha teacher already suspects that I want to become one.
ultimateskier: People go to Sarah Schenirer, TTI, Bulka… that’s what my cousins are doing. (At this rate, I’m going to be the first one in my extended family to go to a regular college for something besides nursing.) You have options like graphic design, nursing, special ed, therapies, nutrition, teaching, accounting, bookkeeping, and probably other stuff that I can’t remember off the top of my head. If that floats your boat then you’re set.
I also find that once you’re married it’s considered more acceptable to go to regular college, particularly for a master’s degree. One very yeshivish cousin did TTI for her BS and is now married and in a secular master’s degree program. (Her husband is in kollel.)
It’s basically either that or parents supporting, but there are a lot of gradations in between.
potpie: Understood- the way that was said is just a bit simplistic.
Seeing as “enrichen” isn’t a word (at least not in English…) never heard of the song but are you sure it’s not enrich?
Now I’ve got one- my dad likes this one:
As we go on this journey that our fathers walked before us
As we go on this journey in search of the ancient wisdom…
There are different types of sems, to the best of my knowledge, in EY as opposed to the US- the ones in the US seem to be overwhelmingly Bais Yaakov as opposed to more of a variety in EY.
My cousin went to seminary close by and was home for Shabbos once a month and all of the yamim tovim- something that was important to her.
Then again, Eretz Yisrael is just, well, Eretz Yisrael…
I wrote a post responding to HaKatan, but it’s not here, meaning that either I typed it and forgot to send it or it got deleted.
Oh well. I haven’t got time to rewrite it, but essentially, HaKatan, as WIY said, the FACTS contradict your claims. Nobody lives in the ideal situation because it doesn’t exist- everyone has his or her own problems with life. However intuitive what you say may be, it doesn’t seem to be backed up by fact.
Out of curiosity- which would you think better for a child, a traumatic situation in which the child loses a parent through death or divorce or a situation in which the child has two healthy, loving parents?
A situation in which the child has a father and mother who are abusive or even simply absent or a situation in which the child has two loving, caring fathers or mothers?
I’m not advocating gay relationships- I just don’t think this is THE REASON to ban gay MARRIAGE.
If money is an issue, then Brooklyn and Queens College are probably good ideas- loads of frum Jews without Touro’s cost (if you live in New York- I have no idea what the NJ equivalents are). If you have (very) good SAT scores (I assume you’ve taken the SAT/ACT- if you haven’t, do so NOW), you can apply for scholarships at both CUNY and Touro.
Is this a seminary question thread?
We did a roleplay of this in class and I just crashed and burned and said that I would just want to travel through time and space (like a madwoman in a box) and interview/talk to EVERYONE. Sorry, can’t pick.
If I had to pick one? There is a person in Tanach who I find inspiring and is also linked to me because she shares my name; therefore, I will not be sharing with you who that person is 🙂 but in a sem interview I’d probably just pick her.
Have you thought at all about Rebbetzin Assaf’s sem?
I know someone who went to Toronto and loved it, if it helps.
I jaywalked across a very quiet cross street in Manhattan. What can I say- the two feet I would have had to walk to get to the crosswalk and the two seconds I would have had to wait to get a green light were just too much for me.
And I’ve still got a couple decent years of teenageriness left… who knows what other super-rebellious stuff I’ll be able to do!
rebdoniel: Women can’t daven? Just because they can’t do what you need them to do doesn’t mean that they’re freeloading.
WIY: Sorry, I wasn’t clear. Of course I don’t equate the two. I was responding mostly to the question in the thread title.
“bet[ween] the torah world and the “jewish” world”
Huh? So what’s the Torah world as opposed to the Jewish world? After all, just like hat=wizard and wizard=hat, Jews=Torah and Torah=Jews, no?
And the quotes around Jewish are necessary why?…..
“If you deserve to be in Bnos Sarah, you will get in without making a single phone call.”
Sorry, but life doesn’t work that way. I have about ten girls in my grade applying to Bnos Sarah. I’d say that 99-100% of them “deserve” to be in Bnos Sarah. But logistics matter, and realistically, they probably won’t all get in.
Sem is cutthroat. There’s really not so much “deserve” about it.
Signed,
A jaded high school senior
It’s as Chinese as Chinese checkers and Chinese jump rope. In other words, I have no clue.
It’s basically a bunch of separate raffles that happen to be in the same room and benefiting the same cause. There are a lot of prizes, each with its own pot and with the tickets for it bought specifically and separately.
This question drove Kevin Carter to suicide.
(Well, not exactly. Other people asking this question drove Kevin Carter to suicide.)
It’s a really depressing story.
VM: I’d say the best fiction is not the best fiction because it is challenging- rather, it is the best fiction sometimes in spite of it being challenging. Of course, the challenge can sometimes contribute to the quality, but many times just the fact that it’s still gripping and fascinating despite being difficult to read is a credit to the author.
I love Les Miserables. While in and of itself it’s not a mentally challenging book to wrap your mind around, it is long-winded and occasionally confusing, especially when you’re a lot more used to Terry Pratchett :). Even so, it’s a fantastic book and I really enjoy reading it, even if I occasionally only end up skimming the fifteen chapters about the French monastic system and ergot mold. I definitely think that’s a credit to Victor Hugo (the well-told story, not the ergot mold).
HaKatan: I have no idea whether or not she has a “normal” life. Then again, do kids of divorced parents, widowed parents, etc have “normal” lives? This girl’s life may not be “normal” but she may easily be happy. “Normal” is subjective. For all I know, maybe kids do OPTIMALLY need one male and one female parent at home but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be well-adjusted without them.
It’s clear that the law COMES FROM the acceptance and not the other way around. Even just taking into account the history of the United States- there have been gay people the entire time, but why is it only a law now? Because gay relationships are accepted. Perhaps a tiny number of people have come out because of the new laws, but the same environment that made these marriages legal has ALREADY prompted gay people to come out.
Acronyms?
SAT- Scholastic Assessment Test
NMSF- National Merit Semifinalist
HALB- Hebrew Academy of Long Beach
MTA- Marsha Stern Talmudical Academy.
Actually, if you didn’t get what I said, then it’s obviously not things you’re particularly anxious about (which makes sense- they’re not THAT major of a deal usually in frum schools) so just disregard my post except with regard to the secular studies in YOT being quite good.
I don’t know anything about the bochurim but I get the impression that the secular studies department is one of the better ones available in yeshivish boys high schools. (I’m not going to swear as to what the level is objectively, but…)
They talk a lot about high SAT scores, but that doesn’t say very much when that’s really a lot more reliant on the individual student than on the school- maybe smarter kids tend to go there, I don’t know. They didn’t have any NMSFs, though, for what it’s worth. I think the only frum boys’ schools (in New York) that had any this year were Yesodei Yeshurun, HALB, and MTA.
I generally tend to get the conclusion that the secular studies education of yeshiva high schools can only truly be considered good in comparison to that of other yeshiva high schools.
VM: I deeply apologize.
You may want to invest in a new screen name for serious posts.
Shopping: I agree, this isn’t a very nice post. I kept that in mind in my post- I have no idea who it was who did it (if it happened at all) and I really don’t care, but if it did happen or if it happens to anyone else then I definitely empathize.
I’ve learned to take VM’s posts with a couple of oceans’ worth of salt, but in case this helps, I fell through a chair recently (though not because of my weight- the chair had been broken… then again, I suppose they WOULD tell me that…) and it was both painful and mortifying.
If the guy didn’t offer to pay, it’s probably at least partially because he wants to get it out of his mind. Falling through a chair is embarrassing- forgive him for not wanting to dwell on it. If it was a serious financial loss then MAYBE ask nicely about it, but if you can be mochel it, I’m sure he’d appreciate it.
What’s black and white and red all over?
A yeshiva bochur on a shidduch date.
I really astound myself with my originality and inventiveness.
Intelligent?
Thread?
Intelligent?
Thread?
*thread commits suicide*
I didn’t ask.
The first time I guessed correctly, the second I’d narrowed down to two people and one of them ended up being correct.
If you think you know who I am, while it’s definitely not that difficult to figure out if you know what to look for and while it’s not the end of the world if you do figure out who I am (there’s nothing I say on here that I wouldn’t say IRL), please don’t ask me. It’s just awkward.
sharp: assurnet addressed SOMETHING to me- he/she could have addressed it to the wrong person, because I don’t really get why what he says has anything to do with what I said, but there’s definitely something with my name on it.
“a super hero named Talisman, whose prayer shawl is impervious to attack”
GENIUS.
assurnet: I told you, I think you’re right, you can protest whatever you want. My only point is that it’s too late to say anything by this point. Maybe we’re just talking in circles.
Idunno if I am… I’ll leave that to others to figure out in my ArtScroll biography 🙂 (sorry, I’m just coming off that thread).
I really only have black skirts and a cream skirt for under Shabbos dresses. I wear cool, colorful, exuberant tops, though :). Black is just so quick and easy.
Thank you, Gamanit!
And in the last sentence of my first paragraph, if anyone paid enough attention to notice it was missing, it should finish with “…gay marriage is in and of itself harmful.”
Anonymous: Is that in response to me? If it is, then plenty of teachers do answer questions well (and I’m not talking about myself, anyway, I’m just a mucho mild example). But there’s no need to expect everyone to know everything.
I find it hard to believe that this new law will cause more gay RELATIONSHIPS. This is really a legal thing; in the secular world, gay relationships are already basically accepted. I don’t think that from that perspective, except as a symbol (which one could argue is a point but I think it’s a limited one as, like I said above, attitudes aren’t changing all that much).
assurnet: Obviously true, but what can you do about it now?
HaKatan: As I mentioned above, gay relationships are, for all practical purposes, normal already. It’s this normality that is CAUSING gay marriage to be passed into law, not vice versa. If gay marriages were not accepted, the bill would never in a million years pass.
In essence, the same people who found gay relationships unacceptable before the bill will find them unacceptable afterward. The Torah will not change with the New Jersey law.
GAW: You rock.
wallflower: “Our schools say that they welcome questions. I have a feeling many orthopraxes did not bother asking, because saying it and meaning it are two different things.” Hah. Not true. To be honest, I go to a school where they really, genuinely do welcome questions. If anyone’s figured out what school I go to, you should know that- it’s 100% true. But that doesn’t mean that the teacher always has an answer. That’s NOT a fault on the part of the teacher- teachers don’t always have the answers and I can accept that. (There was a spinoff from baiis yakov maidel’s thread a while back that discussed this.) Perhaps they don’t know, perhaps they don’t want to get into it (that one I respect a bit less but I can live with it).
But honestly, there are orthoprax people who really do want to know. (Though I agree with VM and I honestly don’t think that orthopraxy is a thing. Uninspired Jews, perhaps, but not orthopraxy.)
Basically, sharp wanted this post back on the main board so he/she (sorry, don’t know offhand) posted on it. That’s called a bump.
And these sem threads are actually useful- my friends actually seem to be reading them for advice :). (If any of you guys are reading this, take these threads with a couple of shakers of salt, PLEASE.)
There are two answers:
A) You answered your own question.
B) If they want to write Jewish books. While there is somewhat of a mainstream market for Jewish books, they’re not necessarily publishable if they’re al taharas hakodesh, if that’s what you want your book to be. (Maybe, but probably not. I remember reading that the author of Go, My Son considered publishing in the mainstream press but did not for that exact reason.) Unless you publish at a Jewish publishing house that distributes in the mainstream marked or self-publish, this is likely to happen.
Mod(s): True, and thanks for looking out for me :), but people know already how old I am (I’ve made sem threads quite recently).