I was just recently talking to someone who said that her parents didn’t let her read Harry Potter until high school because of kishuf. I simply did not chap- even if little kids think that magic is real after reading them, that’s still not kishuf. And even then, it doesn’t exactly take rocket science to figure out that magic really doesn’t exist, and it’s the rare kid past the age of about ten who still thinks magic is real- even all of those kids who sat up the night of their eleventh birthday waiting for an owl from Hogwarts don’t actually think it’s really true. Shocker. *sits back and waits for the cries of “heretic!”*

(Technically, according to the Rashbam, it wouldn’t be considered kishuf if only because it’s not listed in the Torah as being kishuf- he says that if it’s not in the Torah as kishuf, it could have a natural reason that we just don’t understand because it hasn’t yet been discovered. That’s one of the reasons, incidentally, that hypnosis was permitted long before it was discovered not to be magically based.

Oh, and the Shulchan Aruch would apparently permit nonverbal spells as they don’t mention the name of an avodah zara, but that’s an extrapolation, so feel free to correct me on that one.)

I don’t really get connecting Harry Potter and Judaism, and honestly it feels a bit squicky to me, but still, I don’t get all the kishufy stuff.

And I’ve read all of the books and seen a couple of movies (to my dismay… about ten hours of my life I’ll never get back) and I fail to see specifically Christian allegories. You find them if you look for them (and that’s incidentally my opinion on literary criticism as well, so if you’re into that then we’re at an impasse here).

tzaddiq: I’d say I know both, and I’m not exactly damaged IMHO…

(Actually, I’m not sure whether I’m actually very mildly insulted or just antagonized by my head cold and projecting onto you, so sorry… but while I don’t think that watching Cinderella as a kid really benefited me so that I’d take arms and order you to show it to your kids, I don’t think it harmed my spiritual development and Torah knowledge, either.

It was a cute movie, though.)

T613: I read a really interesting book that postulated very similar things about the origins and even benefits of many recessive mutations. It’s called Survival of the Sickest. Great book and very interesting.

(Funny thing, after reading it I was talking to a doctor about it and we agreed that it was shticky, derivative and not exactly “scientific” but he confirmed that the information was scientifically founded. So I think of it as kind of Malcolm Gladwellish in that vein. Still a fascinating read, as are, admittedly, Malcolm Gladwell books.)

The fact is that there are only a few rare diseases that manifest themselves at all in carriers. Some, actually, as T613 says even benefit the carrier- according to that book, carriers for sickle cell anemia have a greater chance of surviving malaria than non-carriers.

ubiq: As everyone else said, if it is true that 1/25 are carriers and there’s a 25% chance that a child of two carriers will have Tay Sachs, then the odds of any one family (two carrier parents, 1/25 x 1/25) having a Tay Sachs child (1/4 per child) were still pretty remote on a global level. On an individual level it’s obviously terrible, which is why we test at all, but in the long run, as you picture it, there’s really not much of a difference.

Pioneers is intense!

Sorry, don’t know anything about Bais Yaakov Intensive (a bit about some other US/Canada sems though), but I just had to let that absolute (original) gem out.

They probably know.

If it’s me, then I pretty much know what I post. I sometimes post without thinking, but then it’s my own problem- I usually reread my posts and wince as they come back to bite me later.

If not, the same sense of privacy that keeps you from going over to them outright probably gives that poster a framework of what he/she considers proper to tell people.

If it’s me, just shoot me an email or send me a text- if you really know me well enough to figure out which anon poster I am, you’ll know one or the other. If you think you know who I am, then tell me; I just don’t want anyone asking me if they don’t know for sure, like, “Are you writersoul? Or maybe you’re Health? No, you’re probably PBA, right? For sure, so the type.” If you know who I am for sure then there’s nothing I can do about it already.

But probably they know what they’re doing and if they don’t it’s not your business to say.

And whether it’s me or not, leave this to email or text. In-person is just awkward. (I know this from experience, unfortunately…)

It wasn’t Mishpacha, because I didn’t read it, but why did that rub you the wrong way? I guess I’m missing something.

Like I said in the other thread, though, having a lot of genetic mutations of this kind probably indicates yichus. Just a funny thought, because that would mean it would HELP shidduchim. Not practical, but weird.

PBA, my point on the other thread was that they have the genes whether or not other people (or even they themselves) know about it- anyone who discriminates based on that would just be ignoring the fact that they probably have the same number of these mutations.

However, to prevent this thread from turning into the last one, I’ll sit back let the scientific reality get mangled.

Okay, looking back on the responses, Menachem Melamed knows his stuff. This is a moot point.

Chances are, whoever you marry (if he/she an Ashkenazi Jew by heritage, even on one side) has at least one of these mutations. They don’t affect you. They only have a 25% chance of giving a disease to each of your kids in the worst case scenario.

You’re turning these into bogeymen.

oomis: Worthy of Beatrix Bloxam.

I actually read a children’s book recently called Baxter, The Pig Who Wanted To Become Kosher. It’s pretty much how you’re picturing it in your head now.

Look, if you’re going to not read what I wrote- and you obviously don’t need to, this is a random online forum- then don’t abuse me for stuff I didn’t say. We disagree. Fine. You have with a lot of people.

I honestly don’t see the difference between knowing you’re the carrier for A genetic disease and knowing which one. I’d tell you to just call me an idiot, but you already have.

Being a carrier- except in the case of very few diseases, none of which (to the best of my knowledge) are Ashkenazi Jewish genetic diseases- DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING unless you marry someone who is a carrier of the same gene. Then, there’s about a 25% chance that each child may have the genetic disease. THAT’S IT. Still important, but just for the kids, not the parents.

And I’ve said about 50 times that it doesn’t matter, not that it does. Please tell me where I indicated that it’s a big deal to have a recessive mutation- I should know so I can be clearer in general. To sum up- having a recessive mutation is (in most cases) technically harmless. I, personally, along with many others, might possibly like to know WHICH I have, just for curiosity’s sake.

Look, you don’t have to believe me. You’re a random guy on the internet, I’m a random shnook.

By the way, if any sciencey people happen to read my stuff (and I admit, it’s really, really long- I’m sorry for that, but even if I had the time to write a shorter version I don’t know that I could) and tell me where I’m wrong, please do. If I’m making mistakes, I like to know.

Basically, I’m repeating myself a lot.

Shavua tov.

If I find out my genetic predispositions, rest assured that I won’t be telling anybody. Besides, due to the way in which Dor Yeshorim works, I’ll have no idea of which gene mutation Yosef has. Neither will he- I certainly won’t be telling him which one I have so that he can compare. Neither of us will ever know based on our Dor Yeshorim results solely. I will know my personal, privately discovered results, which means that I may or may not infer from this his results (depending on how many genetic mutations I have- if I have more than one, how do I know which he has?). If this were Dor Yeshorim’s fear, that some random girl will know some what genetic mutation some random guy- who she won’t even be dating- has, then they’d make it a lot harder for you to find out your genetic profile after the fact. Perhaps that’s impossible and this is the best they can do- I don’t know. I’m not saying that I don’t get why they do it- I’m just saying that it’s annoying. Call it my personal bratty vent, if it makes you happy.

How on earth can you know the “only reason” why I’d want to know a particular piece of information? As someone very interested in genetics, medicine, genealogy, history, etc., personally, one of my biggest and most impossible desires is to create a genetic family tree. Just to be able to follow all the different patterns of genes, dominant, recessive, homozygous, heterozygous, X-linked, mitochondrial, codominant… I’ve done this on a smaller scale in biology and genetics classes, but this would be huge. It’s impossible without an INCREDIBLE amount of time (-travel) and effort, but it’s something that I’d absolutely love to do. If you can’t relate to that, then you can have NO idea what my “only reason” for wanting to do something is. Everyone has their own reasons and interests. What do you think it would do for me if I found out I had a Tay Sachs gene? For me, it would be the same thing as having a Dor Yeshorim test, just more personalized. I think that’s fascinating- if you disagree, that’s fine. If you thought I’d be completely flipping out, you’re wrong. I’m not sure what you think, exactly. I’m really confused about the point you’re trying to make. The stigma would seem to me (correct me if I’m wrong) that having an Ashkenazi Jewish genetic disease mutation, even if it’s recessive, would be seen as a “flaw”- at least, that’s the reason I’ve been given as far as the reason why Dor Yeshorim was created in the first place. My point is that it is not, as I’ve explained. Zehu. If it’s not a flaw, I fail to see the stigma.

That said, I’m not sure I would find out if it weren’t for the whole marriage part of it. If that weren’t a worry, I’d probably skip it, the same way I’m skipping finding out whether I have the gene for, say, albinism, as that’s a lot more common in other populations. I’d find out about these particular genes because they’re truly important for me to know- however, truthfully, I probably will go through Dor Yeshorim and not investigate further. It will depend on my mood at any given point, but right now I think I’ll skip.

While it’s obviously not mindless, once you know what you’re looking for (and for these mutations, they obviously do), genetic testing is really not necessarily that complex. Some, in fact, are downright simple (comparatively, at least), such as those for which you can use restriction endonucleases and gel electrophoresis, in which case you don’t have to sequence the DNA at all. (I did this myself in a lab for AP Bio.) While you do need to find the right restriction endonucleases, once you have, it’s practically a rote process. For those that need sequencing, once you know what gene you’re looking for, it’s a lot easier than it seems. What’s really difficult is figuring out in the first place what genetic mutation causes a particular result- that can take years or even decades. Once that’s known, however, finding it again is a lot simpler than that.

PBA: Have you heard about 23andme? It was a company that uses a body sample (I believe saliva and not blood, which would explain its popularity) and it tests ancestry and gives raw genetic data. It used to give health related information until the FDA shut that down very recently, because people would look up their illness related genes just stam, which they didn’t feel was necessary.

People didn’t need to know what genes they had, or whether they had genes for specific diseases. There were options to test for a whole gamut of disease-related genes, even potential Alzheimer’s-related genes, just because people are interested. One reason it was shut down was that people found they had genes for, Idunno, heart attacks, things they couldn’t really do anything about, and they were panicking to their doctors. All for nothing, because what should they do besides what they’d be doing anyway?

In this day an age, people simply like to know things. Perhaps now that 23andme, which I believe is the only non-doctor-related system that did health-related tests, has been closed down, there will be less of a frenzy now that people will probably be more likely to base it off of a doctor’s recommendation. However, you certainly still can get genetically tested like this, and the same resources that allow Dor Yeshorim to test for Tay Sachs can allow the scientist checking for BRCA1 to test for Tay Sachs as well.

So,

1) Yes, they can. I’m sure you know that genes are just ATCG and there isn’t an essential difference between the gene predicting Tay Sachs and the gene predicting breast cancer besides for order, methylation, which chromosome, etc. The same effort it takes you to test for mutations in the BRCA1 gene as for mutations in the HEXA gene (Tay Sachs). Very different from going to Key Foods.

2) I don’t particularly currently want to get tested for Tay Sachs. Many do. Before 23andme closed their health testing division, my dad wanted to get tested by 23andme. He has no particular reason, he just wants to know about his genetics. I think it’s a slippery slope, but it’s definitely a legitimate viewpoint. Whether you think it’s stupid or not, people DO think that way and people DO get tested on their own. That’s the issue at stake here- that people do do it on their own, not whether they should.

And for the record, if I did want to know, it would be out of (intellectual? or am I fooling myself) curiosity, not out of stigma. I don’t know where you got the idea that would be why. I don’t think it’s a stigma to have a recessive gene, as I’ve said a number of times.

3) Of course that’s the explanation, and that’s why I acknowledged that this isn’t a monopoly so much as a niche. Their model makes perfect sense insofar as it goes. I honestly don’t have a real tayna with them as an organization. I just don’t see why they care if I figure out my own genes. It’s not so much that they don’t give me my results (that’s not their job) but that they care if I find out another way.

Basically, I know that while Dor Yeshorim exists there will never be a perfect answer. All I’m trying to say is that there is a reason why people might conceivably want to be tested twice. If it was accepted in my personal circles to test at somewhere besides Dor Yeshorim, where they give results, I would do that instead without a second thought, but while this system is in place, I will do it twice if I so decide.

As far as stigma is concerned, I don’t even think that a stigma could start from knowing the results of Dor Yeshorim testing, because the likelihood of an Ashkenazi Jew NOT having a recessive gene for SOME Jewish genetic disease is incredibly remote. That’s the POINT of Ashkenazi Jewish genetic diseases- that they’re COMMON in Ashkenazi Jews because of inbreeding. In fact, the people with the most of them (or who are most likely to have them) are probably the ones with the best yichus (as they’d keep marrying into other families with comparable yichus, which are probably related to each other- as in chasidishe rebbes’ families), so the ones with the fewest mutations for genetic diseases would have the stigma, and they’ve already got one :). I accept if people don’t want (others to) know, but I still don’t think it makes sense.

I don’t remember what I wrote- what was edited?

Just out of curiosity.

We were actually talking about this at the Shabbos table and my sister thinks that Roald Dahl’s books should be banned for kids. I think that she’s out of her… I mean, I think that she’s wrong.

You know that feeling when your friend tells you that she was glancing around the CR, that she opened up a thread in which you have posted a lot, and that she read your post that REFERENCED HER? You start to wish that you did a lot more lying on YWN.

(Hashem loves me- she didn’t figure out it was me. If she’s have known to look it would’ve taken her about thirty seconds.)

Popa, DY: I don’t think that it’s a monopoly on purpose, but effectively it is one. If I decided on my own that I wanted to be tested by 23andme, bd”e (whatever I may think of the advisability of that), should I really not be able to be tested by Dor Yeshorim? Having whatever recessive gene should not be a stigma, but as it does seem to be one for some people and everyone wants to be tested for these diseases, you kind of HAVE to go through Dor Yeshorim, which prevents you from doing anything else beforehand. (Afterward, sure, but by then you’ve already used them…)

I’m not saying that they’re TRYING to have a monopoly, and their logic makes sense (once you come to terms with the fundamental assumptions about stigma), but it’s frustrating that there IS such a monopoly.

I’m in the middle of the opposite problem- I talk too quickly, and I have to give a very important presentation in school on Monday. So I need to practice my presentation OVER and OVER to make sure people can actually tell what I’m saying.

Actually, I have the same problem with people, like if I know what they’re going to say I have to avoid finishing their sentences. I then had a DMC with my cousin who stutters and she told me how horrible it is when people finish her sentences, so I’m working REALLY hard to stop it.

Whenever it really annoys me, I just focus on how annoying it must be when I talk a mile a minute and people can’t tell what I’m saying, and I feel sorry for THEM.

My first grade teacher never said, “and then, kinderlach, Moshe Rabbeinu said, ‘Dasan and Aviram, you are reshaim!'” She told us the story and that they were reshaim. Which, as Little Froggie said, is in the Torah.

So she will be able to sleep in peace tonight. Or grade alef-bais worksheets or whatever it is first grade teachers do.

This is just nitpicking already.

Especially when you’ve got so much better stuff… Yehuda and Tamar, anyone?

So it’s not really the teachers being ignorant so much as their trying to keep the kids that way.

Most “ignorant” stuff I’ve heard teachers say is more just mixing up names in their heads. (Okay, so I’m being dan lekaf zechus here, but isn’t that the general idea behind life?)

I only do that if a story/situation comes up. I won’t quote people’s opinions unless they a) are basically mine as well or b) belong to people I actually know in real life.

Has it occurred to you that it may just be him being considerate of you?

I had two DD custard donuts yesterday.

If I every wanted to convince my sundry relatives that I’m reasonably grown-up and mature, the sight of me trying to cram the blob of custard into my mouth before it fell on my skirt probably destroyed that one on the ground.

imamom: what I meant by a sakana is if they were to give you a number without being 100% sure it was his- the way you put it now makes it sound more like a disclaimer, which even in this case I don’t think is right- if you have even the slightest safek, retest. The point of Dor Yeshorim is comparison of genetic markers in the two specific people potentially having children together. If they have genetic markers that give them a chance of having children with a disease, they are meant to be dissuaded. While you’re probably right that your son did receive the correct number, if for whatever reason he did not and you received a lovely shidduch for him with a girl who has a recessive gene that is only a problem if your son has the same recessive gene, if Dor Yeshorim gave you the wrong number, the number of a boy or girl who does not have the recessive gene, then if your son does have the gene without you or Dor Yeshorim knowing, you’re up the creek without a paddle. It’s always kedai to know exactly why you’re doing things, and Dor Yeshorim’s attitude about this is kind of disheartening. The fact is that the sakana is really the reason why you should do it in the first place- if you’re not worried about the possibility of FD or Tay Sachs then just save yourself the money. If they ADMIT that there may be even the slightest chance of a mixup, then what’s the point of the whole thing?

Hence my (seeming?) overreaction. While it probably is nothing, the whole lackadaisical attitude really gets me nervous.

I’m not thrilled about this de facto monopoly in which I can’t even get myself tested, apparently. You’re entirely at the mercy of their system. I personally don’t care about the stigma of having a recessive Tay Sachs gene (if I have one, wouldn’t know)- the point is that it’s recessive and doesn’t mean anything unless the guy also has it. So what’s the stigma? We all have recessive genes for things that will never matter in a million years, and there’s no stigma in that. We all have genes for things that we don’t even know are controlled by genes.

For a gene that is dominant and possibly even affecting the person him/herself, I can understand- I know someone who’s going through that nisayon now, but she needs to be even MORE careful about telling people because for her it’s a real thing that will actually affect her kids. For a recessive gene that will only MAYBE affect your children under certain circumstances, I really don’t understand all the hush-hush.

If there was a way to opt out of Dor Yeshorim specifically without causing a sakana, I would, but I guess I’m stuck in the monopoly.

PBA: I lost my passport so I don’t think that would help me…

Idunno, I’m just picturing “oh, so I’ll go to Rav X now- I have five minutes over there (if it takes longer than that it’s really not worth it) before I have to get to the Xer Rebbe. If I run out of time I’ll just skip Harav Y- he’s not SO chashuv.”

Sorry, ani lo meivinah.

rebyidd: so THAT’s why they send us to school…

You went into Chai Pizza and asked for a private place to sit?

No wonder they looked at you funny. That place is jam-packed wild.

“Nobody goes there. It’s too crowded.”— Yogi Berra or whoever

And besides, Sheli’s (Maple, NOT Too) is the best pizza. Hands down.

Making it easy to find makes it harder not to look for it.

Latest reports indicate 4 people killed and over 60 injured, including 11 injured critically.