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Oh well, mods, it was worth a try… BMHEE, the sites I linked to (attempted to link to, that is) are pretty easily accessible on each college’s web site, though it can take a bit of maneuvering to get to the right part of the Touro site. (I therefore picked Stern… 🙂 )
Also, sorry about the somewhat incoherent style above- I was trying to corral all of my thoughts together in the ten minutes I had before Shabbos :). If you need any clarification of what I wrote or have further questions, PLEASE let me know.
I’d honestly advise that your daughter apply to both schools early decision. There is no downside that I can see besides for earlier deadlines.
Popa: Saying that I know more people from Stern than from Touro who have gotten married is not erroneous or flimsy. It merely means that my friend who I’m going to Stern with has a bunch of sisters and sisters in law.
Actually, based on this totally empirical study we seem to have set up here, judging from my perfectly researched evidence, the most people get married from Sarah Schenirer. After all, my cousins…
Popa, anecdotally, I know people married from both, but I know more people from Stern who are married than I know people who are married from Touro.
BMHEE: I speak from a LOT of personal experience here. (I’m basically about to blow my cover on here, but as I barely post here anymore I don’t care so much. In fact, if your daughter goes to my school she may know me.) I just went through this process, and I know a lot about each school.
I’m assuming your daughter’s in eleventh grade- otherwise you’re a bit late.
Stern currently costs $36,600 plus room and board (mods, please let this link through- it’s all of the information they have sorry, no links ). I actually think that Touro may charge per credit- I cannot make head or tail of their website (located here sorry, no links – mods, again, please let this through)- plus room and board. Stern’s room and board costs more than Touro’s does.
Apparently Lander Honors has gotten more picky this year- they raised the SAT score necessary for scholarships. What’s your daughter’s CR+M score? Both Stern and Touro ignore writing.
Stern no longer gives full scholarships- they give up to $30,000. Touro does give full scholarships. Your daughter is definitely in the running for one- I know people with similar stats who received them.
Your daughter will NOT be overshadowed with her current stats. Most of my friends- who got into both colleges with generous scholarships- had similar or lesser stats and did absolutely fine. A better SAT score will not hurt you, but it may not help either.
Both do take applicant interest into account. If you really want to get a good scholarship to Stern, apply ED- they get a lot of applications from day school kids who apply as a safety if they don’t get into Ivy League schools, so if you show you’re really interested you’ll get first dibs at the scholarship money. Same with Touro, but as they have a built in student base (the kind of students who won’t consider Stern at all) they also have the luxury of being able to turn people down who are on the fence. Either way, apply to both ED- if you cannot swing it financially after receiving scholarship offers, you will have the opportunity to back out within a certain time window.
Both also rely on interviews for their honors programs. In Stern, the interviews are a BIG DEAL. Your interview can REALLY make or break your scholarship package. In Touro, it’s somewhat less so- the interviews are more chilled and I’m pretty sure they carry somewhat less weight.
All else being equal (which it may or may not be for you), I’d say that Touro is more likely to give a better scholarship.
(For full disclosure, I applied to both schools’ honors programs with the same SAT but a worse GPA. I’m going to Stern with a scholarship.)
Hatzlacha to your daughter! If you have any other questions about the application process at either school, please let me know.
I always do to women. They only sometimes respond. (I live in a neighborhood of Brooklyn expats.)
Men it depends. If they’re walking with women then of course. If not, it depends which neighborhood I’m in. In my neighborhood, which is very yeshivish, I won’t unless they say it first, and generally they only say it first if they know me (friends of my dad’s, etc). It doesn’t necessarily come up, of course- I’ve often walked down the block and seen a guy cross the street when he saw me approach. Not sure whether to be offended or flattered… 🙂
I don’t think that saying good Shabbos is INHERENTLY flirting. I will definitely concede that in many cases it can be (walking a few shabbosim back with a couple of friends who were prettier than I am, we got a good Shabbos from them that was definitely not just politeness and concern for our well-being…), but it can also just be politeness, which seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
Syag: I didn’t mean to be offensive, but calling something common that people do that is not objectively problematic “the wrong thing to do” (especially without any substantive reason why it is wrong) is condemnation, and the tone felt self-righteous. You bring up “staying true to your beliefs”- I can see how the whole Pesach cleaning thing may be a belief that is important to you, but I honestly think that what other people do should have nothing to do with your beliefs unless it is outright cheit. This isn’t.
I’m sorry- I’m not nearly as objective as I like to be (or, at least feel) when I comment. I’m sure everyone can relate to the feeling that it’s not pleasant to have someone say that something that you’ve been doing for many years is wrong or despicable (though I admit that that one sounded like a troll to me), especially when it absolutely is not. If that’s made me nasty (nastier than usual?) then I do apologize. I just don’t believe that something this innocuous should be blasted like this, apparently with little cause.
Here I step back, so feel free to have the last word.
Syag: Have you ever been to a hotel?
Most people think that it’s all like those glossy ads in Mishpacha, with Pesach in Venice or on safari or what have you. Some are, some aren’t.
Do you know anyone who goes to a hotel, whether one of these or any other (and yes, there are others that are not like Versailles ignoring the poor of Paris, “let them eat sponge cake,” etc etc)? Happens to be, I do go to a hotel. I also clean and cook for Pesach every single year. (For full disclosure, I go with my father’s side of the family for two days of yom tov and chol hamoed and spend the other days of yom tov at home with my mother’s side.) As I experience both ends every single year, I can tell you that in my personal opinion, my yamim tovim at home are not inherently more spiritual in any way than are those at the hotel. At both I have had beautiful sedarim with various sides of the family. At both I have had amazing food- whether I made it myself or someone else did. At both I have experienced family meals and togetherness- and actually, as I’m sure you’ve realized over the years, all that the waiter service does is ensure that it’s more enjoyable. On Pesach the slaves were freed- there is no inyan that the women HAVE to be tied to the kitchen. There is nothing about the hotel experience inherently against anything that Pesach stands for- just against the image in people’s minds.
I have no problem with people who prefer the comforts of home- I can definitely see the appeal myself- but self-righteous condemnation of the way that someone else chooses to enjoy their yom tov is, IMHO, to quote your above phrase, “the wrong thing to do.”
achosid: After such a nice and non-confrontational opener, I’m just thrilled to open up to you about how I go to a hotel for part of Pesach.
Try again, please, from the top.
OURtorah: Okay, so I seem to have understood this differently than HaLeiVi and dveykus did. I thought that as you’re a girl, you were talking about changing in order to fit the criteria some guy (in shidduchim) is looking for, or for a specific guy you’re dating. They say that it’s about a guy changing.
I guess the options are covered, otherwise I echo what PBA said.
dveykus: How could there be organized mentor groups? You can’t assign someone to a mentor- the point is that it should be someone the person individually decides s/he wants to emulate. It can’t be assigned because everyone is different and requires different things of a mentor.
Why davka without a mentor?
Nobody (not saying this in the context of guys, because I have zero experience- just in general) is worth making you change- unless you would want to anyway. Doing something completely for someone else just causes resentment.
Imagine if a guy asked you to wear a purple sheitel because he likes it. Would you do it automatically? People think that because something involves spiritual growth it should be a given that you just do it, but just like anything else it can involve emotional upheaval and require readiness that may not yet be achieved.
Work at your own pace.
Unless it was changed TO an incorrect spelling, I don’t think it is…
dveykus: not that easy, though, no? Especially as the point in training in something is to get a job as soon as possible afterward, so training in more than one thing with the plan of only working on one field would seem to be wasted time.
What might make sense, if you’re planning on doing something with a master’s or higher, is to major in something that will give you the prereqs for several relevant fields in case you want to change career paths later on…
Just popping in to say LOL at the URL, mods :).
No, what am I going to do with the beer and pickles and all of the ingredients for your pizza!
And the brownies!
…nah, I can deal with taking care of the brownies.
popa: #1, #2 or #3? Or are you up to #4 by now…?
My family usually ignores telemarketers- the only time we play pranks is if they’re trying to scam us. I once picked up the phone and the guy said something like, “there’s a bug in your Windows”- and I cut him off and started shrieking for my father to come, the guy on the phone said there was a bug on the window and I need him to kill it.
That was fun.
Wow, Mosh, what a clear and unbiased assessment of the situation! I love answering non-partisan, non-leading questions!
Mods, please close this thread before I say something I regret.
(Kidding. Ish.)
In seriousness, though…
…what Syag said, and whoopee for your community, but you can raise yourself up without putting others down.
Syag: Sorry, I’ve been gone for a while- why don’t you think that it’s true that the problem with videos has been the content? The fact that frum people, who would otherwise not watch TV are buying Megillas Lester, frum exercise tapes, Step It Up, etc. would seem to indicate that that’s the case…
At least that’s the impression I’ve gotten from the (many) people I know who are raising their kids without TV- they just don’t want their kids exposed to shmutz, though they’re thrilled that they also won’t “loll and slop and lounge about and stare until their eyes fall out” (per the words of the great Roald Dahl) at some screen.
And I’m not using the fact that (I think that) I turned out fine as an argument for anything- I’m simply stating it (for what it’s worth) in case someone will point in the direction of my scarred and tumadik neshama and use THAT as an argument. I absolutely don’t think that EVERYONE turns out fine- I just don’t think either that EVERYONE doesn’t.
As far as the whole thing about “who am I to think I’m better than my parents,” a) trust me, I know the difference between what my parents watched and what they’ve got on today (which is why I don’t watch very much popular TV at all yet I can sing you the Gilligan’s Island theme song) and b) I’m not saying that if my parents did it I should assume it’s the best and I should do it too, I’m just saying that as I’m sure my parents weren’t thrilled with the amount of TV I watched, I can’t be all self-righteous and judgmental and go on about how “I’ll never be like my parents and let my kids watch TV- my kids will do developmentally stimulating activities in a constantly wholesome environment as I serve them gourmet suppers, toilet train them at ten months and play them Mozart in the womb,” because I know enough to know that man plans and God laughs. I’ll try to keep TV at a minimum, but that doesn’t mean that I think that my parents were bad parents by any yardstick.
Oh, and as a sidenote, I LOVED 613 Torah Avenue when I was a kid. I’m actually in the background of a scene, and I know a lot of the kids who were in them.
Syag: There’s a difference, though. Having SOME way to support (I’m not talking about new cars and steak, I’m talking about [to continue the analogy] walking shoes and bread) is simple hishtadlus. Fertility treatments are one-time, immensely expensive procedures.
pba: writersoul: I don’t think you could have said the same thing
about the “most modern orthodox don’t daven with a minyan”
headline. That headline merely presented a synopsis of the
study, which was true.
Sorry, I just don’t think it is.
The data was ambiguous, the categories were undefined, and, in general, the whole thing was a mess.
Assuming that this is about Israel (or there would be nothing about “dati le’umi”), either every category is dati le’umi or none is- since no category is called dati le’umi, either the title is just incorrect in that regard or everyone is dati le’umi in the sense that it means religious and Zionist.
The only possible way that this is about all dati le’umi is if you total all the responses together, which absolutely reaches over 50% (most). If you only count “dati lite,” that’s a disservice to many dati le’umi people.
Either way, technically, both are based on fact in some form (the Jewish Press article is about the whole draft crisis, even if the motives were basically misrepresented, and the YWN was based on some form of statistics gathered). While the Jewish Press article was definitely much more overtly nasty, both articles displayed an element of sinas chinam; the Jewish Press could have reported on such a major news story in a more tasteful way and YWN didn’t need to report that article at all- there is no tachlis whatsoever.
play no games: I don’t think the problem with movies, TV, etc in the frum community was ever really with the idea of sitting and watching; I think it was more with the content, and the fact that kids weren’t staring stupefied at screens all day was just a convenient plus. (Disclaimer: I used to wake up at five in the morning and my parents would plop me in front of the TV with a Winnie the Pooh tape. I turned out basically fine, according to some shitos.) Now that there is “kosher” entertainment, technically speaking there wouldn’t be implicitly a problem with TV or movies.
I still think that in an ideal world I won’t show my kids nearly as much TV as I watched and I’ll try to limit their access to technology when they’re little, but who am I to assume I’ll be “better” or whatever than my parents?
I honestly just use chocolate chips. It’s delicious.
I could say the same thing about YWN’s “most modern orthodox don’t daven with a minyan” headline.
Both of them are just pretty idiotic. (The Jewish Press’s is also not well written and quite puerile. I’d guess that an intern or somebody probably wrote it- not professional at all.)
Health: Assuming I’m reading this right, that means that the pH is too low, the PCO2 is too high, and the HCO3 is on the high end of normal. I just don’t see the math problem.
Ah, you know what, I’ll just go to college first :).
Mazal tov!
My friend saw an adorable proposal not at the Kotel but in the Old City overlooking the plaza- I saw pictures and, if by some chance my future chosson is on here, he should take notes because I want one :). As ronsr said, I can’t imagine a more beautiful and significant place for something like this.
Health: Oh no… I can’t stand math. I’m not bad at it, but it’s definitely not my thing.
(I mean, as long as I’m not doing calculus all day… I can definitely handle algebra, geometry, etc on a regular basis, but let’s just say there’s a reason why I’m not becoming an engineer or mathematician.)
kayla: I was wondering that as well. For me (if I don’t become a Hatzolah [or female equivalent when someone starts one] member myself), I think that it would be a plus in a guy.
I can see, though, that some people might not like the disruption it can cause in the home, the constant dedication, etc- it might be a job full of zechuyos, but it can also disrupt the family timetable.
Health: I like both… so sue me :).
I actually like having multiple interests. (Subject-wise, I love science, history and writing, just to iron that out.)
The fact that I want to become a doctor relates to my wanting to become an EMT only insofar as both help people medically- something that I’m really passionate about.
ihear: I think that that means that guys should find a healthier outlet, not that they should get totally blitzed on a yom tov. Drinking should not be an outlet.
Health: I also want to become a doctor. I don’t necessarily have EMT as my high point as far as a career. I just feel like it’s the next step, and like mavmav said, in Hatzolah EMTs have a lot more to deal with.
I don’t know obviously that I’d go from EMT to paramedic unless I actually wanted to become a paramedic for a living (not exactly a big moneymaker…), but EMT is a much more reasonable investment and one that I think is something I can really do as I am.
Look, I don’t care if people drink. Just don’t put yourself or other people in danger while doing so. Be drunk in the privacy of your own home or, if you absolutely must go out, bring a designated driver- and if she’s your wife, make it up to her BIG TIME afterward. Don’t completely defile your environment either; every year I go to a Purim seudah across the street from the rosh yeshiva of a beis midrash, and every year when I get out of the car I have to step around piles of vomit. My cousin told me that when she went in to bring shalach manos all of the surfaces were covered in plastic tablecloths and everything breakable was put away, and for very good reason.
If you’re an adult, though, if you MUST give alcohol to minors (and I don’t see why that’s a must) be responsible about it. Don’t give unlimited access- prevent kids from getting actually drunk- bear in mind that they’re many times smaller than you and need less alcohol to get to the ER. And remember, if you’re not his parent it’s ILLEGAL- try arguing “sacramental purposes” in court and see where it takes you.
Health: I’m actually CPR/first aid certified (I’m a lifeguard), but basically what jackinthebox said. I’d like to be as confident, equipped and knowledgeable as possible- I want to be just as qualified and helpful as those Hatzolah guys, not an interim measure.
I keep telling my socks that they’re being too picky in finding their zivug. So one has pink stripes and one has Donald Duck- this should stop them from building a bayis neeman beyisroel?
emesvyatziv: Why? Personally I want to become an EMT- ever since I saw someone collapse in shul and we had to wait for a guy to come over to help, I’ve known that this is something important.
There’s actually a women’s EMT course in my area that I considered taking and would have taken if not for school and pesky things like that.
There are always those things in shidduchim where people say that if he doesn’t like this or this about me then I don’t want him, and sometimes they don’t make sense, but honestly if I did end up becoming an EMT- maybe even for Hatzolah or some similar organization- and someone rejected me because of that, that would be a deal-breaker on my end also.
LF: Oh, so you’re dressing up as me too? 😛
And what happened to rebyidd’s other post? Now my other one just looks odd…
Prepared foods we generally eat for lunch.
With candy, we each take what we want out of our own shalach manos and then pool the rest together for a Shabbos grab bag for when little kids come over.
We don’t really throw things away- if we don’t want it, someone else probably does.
golfer: All I’m trying to say is that I have no idea why the Rambam said what he did and I don’t care; I just don’t think we should be coming up with any post facto reasoning as far as how smart or not smart or “differently smart” women are as opposed to men because all that’s going to occur is machlokes.
I’m personally perfectly satisfied with the idea that learning Torah isn’t “my” mitzvah- if it is then I’m even happier but if it’s not then I can live with that. I just don’t think that that’s a reason to hold me (or any other woman) back from it.
You swaggering rascal!
You mouldy rogue!
You puppy-headed monster!
I do desire that we be better strangers.
—Billy S
jfem: Yes, I meant biblical vs modern. As I use them in different contexts I love them in different ways. I write (obviously) in Ivrit, as that’s what we learn to do in school, so as far as writing is concerned I’m obviously referring to Ivrit (ie. the national language of Israel). Same thing (again, blatantly obviously) with the music videos :). But a lot of the beauty of Torah is expressed through Lashon HaKodesh, which has many distinct differences- and so much of that uniqueness is in the unique words and leshonos that are simply not a part of Modern Hebrew.
rebyidd: Brown. I just got a haircut so it’s a bit short.
Logician: EVEN by men? There still really hasn’t been any evidence shown that women really can’t handle this “unnecessary reading comprehension” or that they are harmed by the “illusion” (why illusion necessarily?) “of a comprehensive grasp.”
What on earth is unnecessary reading comprehension?
I’ve learned Michtav Me’Eliyahu and it is extremely straightforward. Maybe it’s just me, but I just don’t find it intellectually stimulating in the way I’ve been indicating- perhaps spiritually, I don’t know, but not intellectually. (I absolutely and emphatically agree, though, that full and unedited sources should be taught, not just snippets on source sheets edited for emphasis. That just makes matters worse.)
Like you said, a lot of people can become self-proclaimed experts in halacha even when the opposite is the case- with this being true for both men and women. Does this mean that my halacha teacher should be giving me a list of halachos and telling me to memorize for the test? Of course there is memorization of basic facts in halacha- but the presence of thoughtful and fascinating analysis of the issues can really mark the difference between a dull and boring spitback and application of complex, interesting ideas.
In a DMC (admittedly a 2 AM one, just like the rant I’m giving right now), a friend told me how frustrated she is by the distaste (toward both men and women) against the “kalte Litvak approach” toward yiddishkeit: how far too many think that lomdus is not a path to true dveykus or whatever it is. This isn’t the case- true joy in Judaism, amongst both genders, can be achieved through learning Torah, even among people who may not have that same stirring of enthusiasm after some kind of a revival rally. I agree with her 100% and would venture to apply the same to women in general- not all women will find fulfillment in learning platitudes, however true they may be. Chanoch lenaar al pi darko can be the key here.
HaLeiVi: My friend wrote a poem in JavaScript… it was incredibly cool.
I love English because I understand it and thus can fully utilize its full potential- all of the varied vocabulary, sentence structure, etc. I love to write, and it’s incredibly hard to write well in a language you’re not really familiar with- a depth to the writing is just lost. I have an excellent English vocabulary and it’s so much fun to use.
I also love Hebrew (both LH”K and Ivrit) because besides for either being the language of the Torah or being a variant of it, they are also beautiful to hear. I was listening to a mutlilanguage music video of a Disney song that included the Hebrew version and it was so much more beautiful than any other language. I also love how it’s so concise- in some classes I take notes specifically in Hebrew because of its brevity and the depth of meaning contained within so few words.
I have to agree with whoever said that they don’t like French. I’m not sure why but I’ve just never really been able to like it. Spanish, OTOH, I really like, however much I may have developed an antipathy to it after taking it in high school.
I should totally dress up as writersoul. Verbose, pedantic, and frizzy-haired.
But too many people would recognize me, so…
One of my friends from camp is going and she sounds really excited about it… enjoy, all of you! (And make friends with her, she’s amazing :). )
I just want to agree 100% with what interjection (I think it was you…) said about how girls are taught Torah in a fluffy way. I take parsha class every Friday. We are taught divrei Torah- depending on whether the teacher remembers, sometimes we get the sources. Next week, I’m having a test. We will basically have to spit back all of the information from these divrei Torah. I’ve had class like this basically every year since at latest the middle of elementary school.
This is NOT to say anything negative about my parsha teacher, an extremely sweet and very intelligent woman. It has much more to do with the attitude that makes this considered “intellectual” learning. It is to a much greater extent spoonfeeding.
I’m learning a mussar sefer in a chabura and it kind of alarms me how much people say things like, “I was reading this great book by popular-rabbi-of-the-month and it said this” with absolutely no critical thinking whatsoever. The name of the book is irrelevant even, sometimes- just the fact that a publishing company thought fit to print it seems to be enough.
While I fully accept that there are people who find this sort of learning fulfilling, there are many, including myself and some of my friends, who feel chafed. To me, for example, one of my favorite classes is halacha, which is, ironically, the closest we get to gemara. We learn the practical halachos, but we also learn about machlekos haposkim, we learn about the logic behind various rulings, and we use our critical thinking skills to try to understand.
So, golfer, I really do think that, as interjection said, it is conditioning. Plenty of women, if given the opportunity, would jump at the kind of learning that you say they are incapable of. True, men’s and women’s brains are different, but I disagree as far as this application.
Yes, this innocent-looking green apple was gushing blood! And screaming!
On the surface, VM, what you’re saying makes sense. What makes it worse is that many seem to only go to the gedolei haposkim in order to get “yes-man” approval for what they already believe (think the famous Rav Steinman video- gaavah gaavah gaavah! Well, I guess that one didn’t work). Like you say, once someone has come out in support of one side, especially if it’s the more chumradik side, it can be futile to come out on the other.
On the other hand, people do ask their own rabbanim. If they don’t and rely on circulating kol koreis, that’s a problem. I’ve known many people who have thought that the halacha went one way and then actually asked a posek- I know that R’ Elyashiv zt”l answered my grandfather’s sheilah in a way he never expected. The mishna says aseh lecha rav, not aseh lecha pashkevil. Every situation is different and sometimes you need a real live human on the other end of the line to really answer the question.
Bottom line IMO: If what you say is really true, it shows more of a problem with the people than with the poskim. You shouldn’t be able to be convinced of a de’ah or derech via ad campaign.
My parents let us at bas mitzvah. My sisters basically went the next day to get holes drilled in their heads. I declined.
I think that at that point you can rely on kids to stay on top of it and understand the consequences (yes, it’s going to hurt).
Ender: based on his posts, pick a number from none to five.