Can I STRONGLY disagree with lilmod about Michlalah (especially as I’m unclear why she thought it was a bad idea)? It sounds like a great place for you! You will find a lot of girls very similar to you (I know one girl almost certainly going there next year who I could actually see you being friends with from your description of yourself 🙂 ) and it’s an amazing place. I believe they’re getting a new program director who will bring it in a slightly more MO direction than it is now (it’s currently being run by a charedi woman). But there is a serious mix of teachers, and you can definitely pick the ones who you work best with (I did, and I had an amazing learning experience).

I wouldn’t necessarily pick a BY seminary- they are much more likely to try to dissuade you from dorming in college. I do agree with lilmod’s recommendation of MMY. (Again, I’m unsure why she recommended it over Mich.) I have several friends who went there and loved it.

If you want something more on the quirky-BY side, perhaps Midreshet Tehillah? I know a girl who went from there to Harvard, and she described it as a balance between a bit hashkafa-driven than Michlalah and yet still very intellectually motivating. The girls are probably more modern than the average Mich girl, and about the same as MMY girls. (However, MT is more likely to get LW BY girls, and MMY is more likely to get RW MO girls. Michlalah gets both.)

If my personal background makes a difference- I went to a middle-of-the-road, BY type high school and am now in Stern.

My personal effort has been to not put myself in the shidduch market, making way for the older single girls. 😛

It’s so funny how everyone’s assuming that frum people wouldn’t have voted for Hillary. I know plenty who did, even if they didn’t like her, in order to vote against Trump. Most people I know, though, either stayed home or voted for everything but president. Where I live went blue just barely- but there are for sure frum people who voted Hillary and nonfrum/non-Jewish people who voted Trump. I don’t assume one way or the other.

Do you prefer an outright Zionist, unapologetically MO place? If so, what about MMY or Shaalvim? There will be a mix, but there will be plenty of girls like you.

Michlalah is a little bit moving charedi-ward but is technically “nondenominational,” and DB has basically totally charedi staff, pushing kollel, etc while the girls tend to be more BY-light. (It’s a great school, though, from what I’ve heard, the question only being whether it’s you “type.”)

I went to Mich-

Michlalah is Zionist but not MO. Great teachers, most of whom are charedi but also most of whom do not push a charedi hashkafa. You will get answers and discussions if you want them, and you can also select your schedule to get the mix of hashkafa and textual learning you want. The student body is quite varied, and there are people from all over the place (one of my best friends from there comes from a place without a Jewish community at all). You’ll find a LOT of people like you. I don’t know whether gemara is something important to you or not, but Mich does not have it and MMY and Shaalvim do.

kj- cut it out.

It takes a lot of decision making for someone to decide to go on meds. It also takes a lot of adjustment, tweaking, and acclimating to get to the point where meds are helpful. This is a decision which nobody makes lightly, and it’s a serious decision- meds which are brain altering can literally change personality.

So there are probably plenty of people out there who should be on meds but aren’t- and that’s a valid call to make. I am close with people who are on meds, should be on meds but aren’t, and could go either way (and generally have not elected to start). It’s such a weighty decision that you can assume that those who are on meds are taking them with great care and under the guidance of medical professionals- and many who should be on meds are not necessarily under any guidance. If done well, meds can be amazing for many people, and certainly, there are risks- but there are much bigger risks than going out with someone who is on doctor-controlled medication. (I would recommend only going out with someone who has been on the same medication successfully for a reasonably long period of time- different meds can wreak havoc on a person if they’re wrong and it can take a while to hit upon the right med at the right dose.)

tl;dr- yes, I’d go out with someone on meds. And a good chunk of the above argument came from someone very close to me in her decision to go on meds even as she was concerned about shidduchim.

When you say “at-risk,” do you mean at risk of leaving “the derech” (whichever derech you may mean) or at risk of dangerous behaviors? I think that the conflation of the two problems is a huge issue, as it can mean that people think of leaving a Torah (or even just a specific hashkafic) path in the same way as engaging in behaviors which can risk their lives. (Before anyone starts about how risk to the soul is as dangerous as a risk to the body- if a person dies, or even is injured or damaged enough physically, there’s no going back. There is no equivalency between someone leaving “the derech” and going to college and getting a productive job and someone leaving “the derech” and living on the street taking drugs. I’ve heard it way too often and it’s awful to suggest such a thing.)

If you’re talking about being “at hashkafic risk,” I think the best you can do is provide good and wholesome education in childhood and keep on providing adult education for those interested. After that, in the cases of both meshama and guf, adults are adults and are ultimately responsible for their own decisions, and when it comes to maintaining physical health and well-being should always be supported to make sure that they remain safe (to the best of one’s ability, without being stifling).

One thing that I never understood is the people who make a huge effort to make baal teshuva yeshivos and schools for kids at risk to be welcoming, inclusive, enjoyable and full of opportunities in both academic and social ways and nobody makes the same effort to those who can more automatically slide through the system. If we turned all schools into “baal teshuva schools” or “at risk schools,” we could have the refuah before the makkah. The current system seems the epitome of reactionary behavior.

LF: Lol, I’ve been here five years, I just stopped posting so much within the past few years- but thank you for the good wishes (and right back atcha! 🙂 )

Mods- I have to say, I understand the logic you mentioned about letting Joe’s posts go through, but it really does seem like there’s a bit of a double standard/blindness to certain issues in letting through some posts and not others, especially as relate to women. If someone weren’t to respond to a Joseph post (and many people give up after a while), would you delete it after the fact? I’ve occasionally been that person to respond and respond and then give up, because I honestly have better things to do. It’s not other posters’ job to keep Joe in line. To be honest, it’s yours.

It’s hard to say from the perspective of a poster how the things you let through compare to those you don’t, as we’re not privy to the rejected posts. But if you’re letting through posts by people who have been dismissive of women to an absolutely absurd degree, whether Joseph from a “lomdishe” perspective or Health being just plain (apparently) inappropriate (which I’ve complained about in the past, and you’ve taken a post-by-post approach to deleting his stuff which is starting to feel not enough), then it raises the question of whether it really matters to you.

I hope this doesn’t sound too harsh, but while I’m not around so much anymore, what I do see here doesn’t make me too eager to return. (That in particular may not be a particular problem to anyone, but it seems as though some of the same things dissuading me are bothering other posters as well)

edited slightly

I gave out candy all through high school! It’s a great boost in self esteem, if your idea of ideal popularity is among 4-8 year olds :). But it was loads of fun. I would have this year and last year except that I forgot to buy stuff and my family’s reached a point where we don’t automatically buy candy anymore. I wouldn’t say it was meaningful, but definitely fun, and (at least at that point) a step above talking awkwardly to neighbors I never actually see during the year (I’m not a major shul goer).

I didn’t go at night this year, but during the day I went to a small shul with the majority of my extended family. On the one hand, it was nice, because I got to see my relatives and play with their adorable children, but it was in a tiny cramped basement and the women couldn’t even see into the men’s section (where they were, depending on personality, being spiritual, boozing and having a blast, or a combination)- I just started talking to people and basically forgot I was in shul, which wasn’t a great feeling. I did catch up on Nach learning that I’d fallen behind in, which was nice.

It’s a shame- I’d love to go to a shul where women dance on Simchas Torah. Not with a Torah- I was at a shul like that (as a guest) in seminary and was weirded out, not to mention that I ended up in a massive argument with a friend over whether it was muttar. But going off into a separate room, no sefer Torah, no official hakafos- many women experience that joy of limud haTorah and it’s a shame that for so many people, including me quite often, Simchas Torah for women is sitting around bored and disconnected when there are deep feelings that can be brought to light.

My parents got married at an “older” age (at the least, significantly older than they’d’ve wanted, which is the standard by which I judge these things these days). While neither of them have ever given me systematic answers to all of your questions, one interesting thing which my mom mentioned once is that there were several opportunities over the years for my parents to have met/been introduced, but because of different priorities which my mom had when she was younger, which mellowed naturally (not because she’d “settled” or “readjusted her expectations” due to shidduchim), had she gone out with my dad seven years earlier she would probably not have married him. The fact is, people’s priorities and characters do change naturally over time, and forcing them to artificially hold themselves to a set of arbitrary societal standards can be foolish. (That wasn’t the specific case with my parents, but I’ve still seen it in action among others.)

Maybe, as you’re still the child of your parents, one of them should buy you candy? 🙂

Also, I randomly skimmed the responses to that thread just now (it’s a month older, and I figured bumping it would be a bit odd), and a couple things about the resume pattern I posted-

LUL- you responded to my description of my mom’s typical resume- first of all, I don’t see a problem with putting down your own eye and hair color. Asking for a specific one is ridiculous, and you don’t have to put your own down either, but for whatever reason it’s become a thing. By giving it, at the worst you’re making people feel better about not having a picture, they have a tiny handle on what you sort of look like.

And no, calling references is a rookie move. Of course they’re called, but at least as often, savvy people will realize that the references were primed, or at the very least picked because of their very good relationship with the person in question, so what they say is taken with a grain of salt. (A friend and neighbor of mine primed me as a reference but didn’t put me down as such on her resume, instead picking two other friends, because she knew that if someone called them they’re the type who would for sure say nice things, but since will probably look for other people to call, I’m statistically the likeliest person for them to discover and should probably be primed.) So yeah, pick nice people as references, but also bear in mind that many other people besides these people will be called as well, and that many people may pass over the references all together.

Also, I know several girls who don’t daven at the same shuls as their parents, and for reasons which could be revealing for a shidduch, so I’d still put it down. Why wouldn’t it be meaningful?

LUL- As far as the specifically Ivy League colleges, you can’t really just get in with motivation and good SAT scores. But that’s true no matter what school you come from, though people who went to the best public/prep schools do have a better chance- more AP classes, more clubs, more leadership opportunities, all of which Ivies will look to. But even people with the best records compete to get in, and if you can convince them that you have something about you that stands out, then you have a shot. But like you said, that can apply to anyone from any school.

For grad school (especially law), yeah, you need good scores. I know a guy who just went straight from a very RW yeshiva (with his last secular education having been in eleventh grade) to Harvard Law School with good scores but needing a LOT of work on writing and other foundational stuff. Not that he won’t do great, I’m sure.

Of course, if you’re trying to get into most other colleges (like CUNYs, Rutgers, YU, Touro, etc- probably NYU as well, though it’s a bit more dicey), the educations you’d get from basically everywhere on this list would get you in and you’d do very well.

Okiale- one thing- you say you’re looking for a yeshivish place, and your parents are looking for college prep- I’m sure this is something you’ve thought of, and the two aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, but have you and your parents given thought to what your trajectory will be after high school? Many yeshivish schools encourage several years of beis midrash learning before college, or doing college part time while simultaneously in beis midrash, or even going to Israel. Where are you on that, and are your parents on the same page?

Okay, so I just mixed up RPRY and RTMA in my head- RTMA is a high school in a completely different location (and considering I know people who went to RPRY, I shouldn’t have mixed them up…).

And thanks, mod, for letting me and Okiale know… 🙂 Like I said, I only know one person who’s gone there, and as a girl I’m already starting off with a disadvantage here.

Okiale, a lot of schools will be hesitant to accept you because of that, not because they see it as a problem but because they’re not necessarily equipped to deal with it (all of the classes will assume prior knowledge- not only of reading Hebrew, but of learning gemara for several years). That doesn’t make them right, but it also doesn’t make them unusual. I assume you’re working on your Hebrew and Aramaic literacy, but I definitely would recommend sticking to a place where they know your level and are prepared to work with you- otherwise there can be resentment in both directions if you’re not prepared for the classes or they’re not prepared for a student who’s on a different page academically than the rest of the class, who through quirks of background have more experience with the material. Not that you can’t get to their level! But being in an environment that’s supportive on your terms is important.

Chizuk, if wanted/needed: I have a friend who’s brilliant (National Merit finalist and highly ranked academically at her very competitive public school) who showed up to seminary with very little Judaic studies knowledge (frum family, but had never lived in a frum community and had learned everything she knew with a phone chavrusa). I was her chavrusa throughout the year, and since she was given room to grow and knew she could learn at her pace, she made huge strides, caught up to basically everyone, and is now being recruited for a Judaic Studies grad school program only a few years later. So give yourself flex time, learn as much as you can on your own, and know what you’re getting into, and you can really soar.

Aha. College prep. MTA would definitely be the best solution then- and I got a bit of that from your post, which is why I suggested Shaar HaTorah and Ohavei Torah, which both provide relatively good educations in secular studies and whose graduates often go on to college with success.

Bear in mind that it really depends what college you want to go to- most places which would be willing to take you in and accommodate you (read: not the elitist yeshivish ones) have good enough English that you could for sure get into a state college, even if they wouldn’t actively encourage it. I have several cousins who went to schools which actively discouraged college, in fact, but provided educations which, while not great, were enough to prep them for the SAT and college.

Maybe try, as someone above mentioned, Chofetz Chaim? They seem to have a good English department, and might be willing to accommodate you. Or maybe a school like MAY in the Five Towns or Heichal HaTorah in Teaneck- still part of the yeshivishe velt, but due to being in more “modern” communities, with a greater emphasis on secular studies (generally due to parental interest, which is often absent in other places- someone I know in Monsey opened a yeshiva and at the open house was asked by a parent why he was offering “too much” English). Ohavei Torah is the same type. On the other hand, these schools might or might not have the tools to help you in limudei kodesh- but it’s worth a shot. That said, none of these schools will make it a priority to educate you for Harvard- not that you might not get in anyway (I know girls who got in from BY type schools which did not have that goal either), but it will simply not be a goal for them.

Actually, one caveat about MTA- you know how people have said that it depends which rebbi you get? It’s tracked, so I’ve heard great things from more right-wing people who ended up in the higher tracks as far as the chevra- but in the lower tracks, you might end up with guys who are less on your wavelength if you see yourself as yeshivish. (The guys in the higher track might not be yeshivish either, but even so there may be a difference socially, depending on what you’re expecting/used to.) There are other yeshiva high schools in the tristate area, like RPRY, TABC, etc, but they may have a similar situation.

If you’re already considering dorming (and I have no idea where you live so this may or may not be practical) why not look into schools in places like Chicago or LA? I don’t know much about it, but Skokie seems off the top of my head like a good place for you, somewhere in between MTA and one of the “modern yeshivish” places I mentioned. (If I’m wrong about it, let me know*- I only know one person who went there so I might not right about that.)

*not quite what he’s looking for

ubiquitin: Like you said, it’s subjective. I also refer to R Moshe Feinstein (my grandfather’s rebbi) as Reb Moshe, with obviously the utmost respect. My grandfather calls him Reb Moshe or the Rosh Yeshiva (obviously with even greater respect, having spent many years exposed to his greatness). But in that scenario, it is the convention to say this as a marker of respect. I don’t know if it is the case that in the past just saying JB was considered respectful, but in the current climate it is not, so one cannot use the subjectivity excuse anymore. If there was an era when it was considered respectful, it has long passed. I’ve heard lectures from many of R Soloveitchik’s prominent and close talmidim and spoken intensively with one of them and none of them have ever called him by that name (and one was very outspoken against it). It is “the rav” or “R Soloveitchik.” So it does seem as though whatever convention which may have justified some potential subjective okayness of calling him “JB” has passed.

I had a teacher in high school who referred to him as JB. My friend, the daughter of a close talmid of R Soloveitchik, was horrified. I don’t know where the term originated, but it’s currently only used by the yeshivish/chassidish community- Modern Orthodox people say “the Rav.” Especially in these communities, which have so much respect for rabbinic authority, I personally don’t see how people don’t consider how disrespectful it is to call a rabbi solely by his initials. (In writing, people might write RJBS or RYDS in the same way that they’d write RMF for R Moshe Feinstein- but that retains reference to the respectful title and is merely writing shorthand. Just JB is beyond that.)

One MO person once told me that she felt offended even when people would say R JB Soloveitchik- because she felt that yeshivish/chassidish people calling him by an English name is specifically looking down on him, because many consider it an inferior way of being called and they could refer to him (as plenty do) by his Hebrew/Yiddish name. I told her that people weren’t thinking about it like that and were’t actually being insulting, but I hope that in fact she is wrong about that (the indication on this thread is that it is just retaining the way that he referred to himself, which is obviously fine). But just saying JB is disrespectful.

No, I was just giving an example of friends who went back to seminary a few years after high school. That just happened to be the reason why they were there- there were people who were there just to learn and had an equally great time. (They were there for the summer, though.)

If it’s not too personal, why are you so desperate to get married?

I agree with people who say to get more certifications (maybe even now) which can get you jobs and experience- like phlebotomy, perhaps. If you were to work in a retail pharmacy, phlebotomy would be a good skill.

Seminary isn’t just for recent high school graduates! A bunch of my friends just went as tutors to one of the seminaries mentioned above- there are classes on all levels and they had an amazing time.

Unless you’re graduating now, don’t give up finding a job! Contact the career center or bio/chem department heads at your college- they’re there to help with that kind of thing. You may even want to get an unpaid internship if it’ll help you get really valuable experience. (I assume this is a gap year while you apply? If so, then getting experience is an excellent idea.)

I don’t think so, Joseph.

Look, he could have been completely correct about the minutiae of the halacha. To be honest, as you may have guessed (and are probably relying on), I am not well versed enough in the inyan to disprove his halachic statements. But it doesn’t matter- it’s one thing to know halachic facts and principles and another to apply them. There is an inyan for rabbanim to be rachmanim even in halacha- such as the rabbis who do everything they can to try to find a heter for a questionable chicken for a poor family, or after the Holocaust to find a heter for an agunah to remarry. Rabbanim can know the halacha backward and forward and be able to make a statement within the first ten seconds but still immerse themselves in research in order to potentially find a way to be merciful and apply the halacha mercifully. This is undoubted.

The thing is, the blogger is being very emphatic about being dan lekaf zechus when it comes to Malka Leifer and is showing no such inclination toward her accusers. He explicitly accuses them of being money-grubbing, casts aspersions on their desire to achieve justice (stating that they have no interest in her defending herself), and engages in victim shaming, casting blame on long-time victims by saying that after a certain amount of time it should be considered consensual if the victim hasn’t outwardly protested. He completely disregards and misreads current psychological wisdom about predators targeting abused and suffering children who are less likely therefore to see a way out- in fact, reading it the exact opposite way, as is the exact way which many proven molesters intend as they seek out victims. In all of this, there is NO HALACHIC ELEMENT which he is invoking to make these statements- besides being dan lekaf zechus, which he is IGNORING.

The fact is,

1) There are predators who are not pedophiles (though there is an equivalent for teenagers, if you must know), but gravitate towards teens because they may be in a position of power over them. It’s a similar concept to when we see a rabbi or therapist having an illicit relationship with a client or community member- there is an imbalance and misuse of power which is wrong in and of itself.

2) Israel is not, for better or for worse, a purely halachic state. According to its laws, it CANNOT judge her in front of a beis din and it CANNOT even judge her in a regular court. The only way for her to be tried is to be sent back to Australia. By being against this, no matter his protestations, he is in fact tacitly agreeing that she should not be forced to face up to the accusations made against her. I know that there are different interpretations of the extent of the requirement for dina d’malchusa dina, but he does have to understand that he is taking a position which has no basis in the legal realities in Israel and Australia.

3) Halacha is halacha. But middos are middos, and this man is displaying none. Rationalizing potential abuse (both physical and of power) and blaming the victims is just terrible middos. Halacha does not demand that- all it demands is an open mind. This man, I’d almost say, is being a naval birshus haTorah- using halacha as an excuse to make repugnant statements.

4) In that vein, let’s say theoretically that halachically, what happened was not a sin or a crime or anything actionable or punishable. But it was proved that it happened. Would that make the perpetrator blameless? There are plenty of places in halacha where we know that an injustice did occur but due to the rules of the legal system, it is not actionable (such as if there are not enough witnesses). Does that mean that no injustice was done? No, it just means that there is no way to punish the perpetrator. What this man is doing is not only removing the punishment but removing the blame from the (theoretical) perpetrator and the pain from the victim. He has no right to do that, and you cannot quote me any halacha which says that just because it was mishkav nekeivah with a woman above age 12 (daasan kalos, of course), the victim had no suffering or trauma. This man eliminated that from the picture by focusing purely on didactical matters, showing a clear agenda. Like I said, naval birshus haTorah- showing complete gasus in matters of ve’ahavta le’reiacha kamocha by ignoring real people’s potential suffering in exchange for milking halachic minutiae.

By the way, I’m also disturbed by his nonchalance about living two doors down from child molesters. I hope his kids are alright.

Yeah, reading his blog- his stuff on sexual abuse of minors is horrifying.

Joe: “writersoul, MO folks generally have shidduch resumes? I though the rule of thumb there was they “meet naturally” rather than being introduced via a shadchan.”

Not generally, but sometimes. The particular cases I mean are through a relative of mine who teaches in a MO setting and whose students “flip out” and decide they want to date the yeshivish way.

I currently know people who met guys on their own, met them on dating websites, or were set up by someone who knew both parties. I do know some MO people with resumes, though.

TOL: Yes, most of the people involved in Project Makom consciously want to stay frum. There have been people who were on the fence who stayed because of PM, but you’re probably right that someone completely turned off of religion as a concept might not find it helpful. If they still were open to discussing it, though, I am sure they have volunteers who could help with that.

What they’re really trying to do is to prevent people from feeling that because they’re no longer as RW as they grew up, that doesn’t mean they can’t be religious anymore.

I was going to walk away, but I do feel like I want to clear up one misconception. (After this I actually am going to leave this conversation.)

When I describe MO, I am describing it as a hashkafa. I believe that if you are going to take on the identity of a group, you may as well take on the hashkafa, or to be honest you’re being robbed (unless you have a different hashkafa, I suppose). Anyone can be lax, anyone can be chilled, anyone can pick and choose- I know chassidish, yeshivish, MO, Chabad, etc people who do all of these things. It is only when I see MO DEFINED by its laxity that I speak up. When there is no reference to the fact that it is an actual hashkafa and not just a get-out-of-jail-free card. After all, even if you were to define MO by a spectrum of mitzvos kept (which I would think is a mistake, to be honest, as there are other factors), the unifying factor would be the hashkafa. And that’s what I’m trying to emphasize here- that MO doesn’t MEAN laxity, that there is more to it. It can include those who are lax in the name of MO- I’m aware that this is a large sociological category in MO- but it is not only this (and, of course, many of these people do subscribe to the hashkafa as well). It can also include those who have different standards than yeshivish and chassidish people based on the advice of their rabbanim, it can also include people who from the outside look identical to your average yeshivish person, and it can include people in between.

But as what I’m saying doesn’t seem to be helping matters much, I’ll leave this here and withdraw.

Sparkly- yeah, I know (I’ve also taken classes at non-Jewish colleges)- I was saying that some yeshivish people go to secular colleges as well.

Just want to say for the record that I’m with jfem here.

Can I recommend Leaves of Faith by R Aharon Lichtenstein, by the way? (Two volumes- I’ve only read one so far.) I started it recently and it had some great stuff in it about ideals of Modern Orthodoxy. Having met the families of several of his top talmidim, I can say that they exemplify a Modern Orthodoxy which bears no resemblance to what you describe, in which Modern Orthodoxy is a derech to an unapologetically halachic life combined with engagement with the world at large.