write or wrong

changing123-Thanks for posting. We are in connection with a Rav, and we do think my son needs therapy, but he won’t go. How do I force it on him? I keep waiting for a ‘soft’ moment where I might be able to reach him, but so far, it’s not forthcoming.

daniela-the truth is, I haven’t told my parents, who are in the States. I’m sure there wouldn’t be a sympathetic reaction, probably more of a tough love approach. My in-laws know, and they have tried talking to him, as well as my brothers-in-law. But he couldn’t hear it at the time. We have a simcha coming up soon, b’ezras Hashem, so it will soon be common knowledge, and then everyone can talk to him…if he comes.

I know I have to pull myself out of this depression, if not for my son’s sake, then at least for the other kids. But until then, I can’t yet seem to laugh…or smile.

I know we were told that things would get worse before they get better. But how much worse? Every time I try to speak to my son, he tells me he doesn’t want to hear me. When I asked him when I can talk to him, he said ‘never’. He said he doesn’t want to hear me, and that me and my husband should die. I know the focus is not supposed to be on my pain, but rather on my son’s suffering. But I can’t figure out what happened that caused me to suddenly become my son’s enemy? I tried to ask him this question, saying that I am the same mother that I’ve always been for the past 16 years, that I’m not the one who changed. I don’t know how we are going to live as a family this way. He now stays out all night, coming home around 9am. After he eats a bunch of snacks, he then plays with his computer for a few hours. Then, he sleeps all day, even into the evening, only to repeat this scenario. What should I expect from this point on, and where do I go from here?

aries2756/here to help- perhaps it’s on this issue that we can continue. Don’t think of it as teaching ME what to do (bc you feel this is not the forum for it). Instead, tell me everything YOU learned, and how it helped YOU! I don’t see that there are any other options, since Avi Fishoff didn’t answer my email, and there’s no way for me to receive the file you mentioned. Then, after me seeing the ‘big picture’ of TP in its entirety, I can decide if it’s for me or not. The only other reason I could think of why you might not want to do it here in the CR is bc Avi Fishoff doesn’t want you to teach his methodology without his permission/supervision, which I could understand. But if you explain to me what you learned and how it helped you, I don’t see how that would pose a problem. What do you say?

aries2756-thanks for your insight and advice.

here to help-the ‘concentration and adherence’ are my responsibility. My ‘focus’ is not affected by the CR, bc it’s only when I shut the computer and face my child, that Twisted Parenting goes into effect. How would it be any different if a friend/neighbor/family member were to comment on what I’m doing than if a poster did? You had strong words for me regarding my son, telling me ‘his life is at stake’. But YOU quit in the middle! You initiated all of this in the CR, and are now saying the CR is not the place. Your ‘reason’ is hard to accept, perhaps there’s a different reason… BTW, no one answered the email for TP.

here to help-I appreciate that you want to help, and that you feel it would be more productive and perhaps more successful if you could send me more info(?). But, considering there are certain limitations, I suggest we try to work within those limitations the best we can. If at some point we can bypass those limitations, then maybe we’ll continue from there. But you started off giving a lot of direction and theory, and then came to an abrupt halt. My son is crashing, and if you think you have advice that could help him, then please continue…

Sorry for your pain about your dad. How did you pick yourself up?

Wandering Teen-It’s not a matter of love, we love our son no matter what. We’d also accept it if our son was modern, but he’s not. If it were merely an issue of him not following in our footsteps, but veering off a bit, we’d accept that too. If you’ve read the posts, you’d see it’s more like he fell into quicksand, but thinks he’s on steady ground. No parent can easily watch their child do something that will hurt them, or pull them into a bad direction. It’s not a matter of him rejecting an orthodox way of life. It’s a matter of him rejecting responsibility and direction, as well as Hashem. To stay out all night with a bunch of drop outs who are looking for action, doesn’t lend itself to success in life, religious or not.

BOND-thanks for writing. Did it help your son to come back? My son does see us davening, and he tells us not to waste our time. Thanks for your blessing, I hope it comes true!

here to help-I’m not saying ‘Twisted Parenting’ is not an option, only coming to NY is not an option. It is not financially nor logistically possible, given our situation. I’m hoping we can continue here…can we?

aries2756-I spoke to my husband about it, and he thinks that in a million years, the RY would never admit any wrong doing, let alone apologize to my son. It might have to come from us, but at a time when my son would be more receptive to hearing us. My son knows that we have always been on his side, and there were times when we wanted to go speak to the RY, but my son told us not to. He was always afraid it would make things worse for him in the long run.

The pain of all this does make a person feel very alone. It’s nice to know I can come here and feel support.

aries2756-he meant that he can’t be religious by just following in my footsteps. Maybe I was naive thinking that bc we have a loving relationship with the kids, and shalom bayis, that all would be okay. You are right about the RY picking and choosing which mitsvos to follow, and giving the kids the subtle message that they can do the same. I am remembering a few incidents where my husband and I didn’t like what the RY did, and we felt it was a terrible message for the kids. But who knew it could have such serious repercussions? What could I possibly do to repair that type of damage? Do you think it would help if we spoke to the RY about it, and then ask him to speak to my son (about how wrong he was!!)?

My son came home now, and he is as happy as can be! The truth is, I couldn’t even look at him, he hurt me so much. None of my previous coping skills are working. I tried reading Tehillim, which I do every day, but I just couldn’t concentrate. Maybe one day my son will find himself, and heal. But he ripped out a piece of my heart, and it can never be replaced

The email is actually from YWN giving me a twisted parenting email address. Unfortunately, coming to NY is not an option.

It’s 8am here in Israel, and my son still didn’t come home. How do people cope with things like this?

WhatIthink-It makes sense what you said. But it seems hard to compete with the temptations that are out there, even if the family is happy being religious. It could be that the mitsvos just don’t make kids that happy, especially when you see the secular world appearing to be ecstatic from other things. My son has been listening to secular music for a long time, and now he had the chance to go with his chevra to an outdoor beach party with some singer or DJ that he likes. Hundreds of kids dancing on the beach, loud music, beer… the intensity overpowers even the happiest of religious events. My son said the most telling thing as I was pleading with him not to go. He told me that he can’t be religious bc of me. I guess that is the bottom line. I feel like I’m in aveilus

We are in the middle of a battle right now. My son just said he is going overnight with his chevra (I am guessing to Ashdod). He won’t say where, with who and when he is coming home. How am I supposed to react to this? I’m not handling it very well.

here to help- I just noticed an email address emailed to me from Twisted Parenting. Is that you?

here to help-so where are the mods??? I feel like I’m hanging here…

No One Mourns the Wicked-we do have a therapist we are working with, and he seems to be in sync with aries2756 and some of the other posters.

Imaof3-I don’t think he is, although I do think he communicates with his chevra on facebook. Mostly he’s watching movies, and downloading games.

here to help-I don’t see any other choice. Perhaps we can just continue, and ignore any diversions. Afterwards, we can respond to any questions/disagreements.

Speaker-so then, what’s the goal of Twisted Parenting?

Speaker-thanks for sharing your situation, and I wish you much success! So,then Twisted Parenting is for the family, not the child?

daniela-I don’t think my son is dangerous, but when he has his temper tantrums, he makes a lot of threats. I guess, if we pressed all the wrong buttons, G-d forbid, he could go over the edge, like hth said. But usually, we back down, and try to diffuse his anger. I hear what you’re saying, and believe me, I wish it could work out the way you say, that sensibility would just ‘kick in’. But for some reason, it isn’t kicking in, and I’m not optimistic. If he wants to buy something, he might just take money from the pushka. And if I don’t iron his shirts, he’ll just stop wearing them and borrow a tee shirt from his friend.

here to help-We are commited to doing this, and are ready to continue. But just as an aside, I’m not sure a therapist would agree against setting boundaries. Perhaps, ‘giving in’ more has therapeutic value, but to give up complete control feeds their insecurities and fears of abandonment…

BTW, what kinds of kids would this approach NOT work with?

aries2756-We did try to direct him to his room, but he didn’t go there until he spewed out all his anger first. He wasn’t able to listen to reason at that time, and I’m sure whatever we would have said, he wouldn’t remember. If I’d dare to video/tape him when he is in his prime, I’m sure he’d be furious with us, and I wouldn’t want to take a chance he’d break the camera.

A special thanks to all who took the time to post today, when you were all fasting. In the merit of your chesed, may you all have much nachas from your children..

Imaof3-I am not ‘kicking’ him out of the house. He has the choice to come home at a reasonable hour and sleep in his bed. And he has told us many times that he does have a place to sleep if we ‘throw’ him out. I’m not sure we can wait for the winter. Each day is gehennom, and here in Israel the winter doesn’t get cold until January. The question ‘who knows what will happen to him’ is the big question. Maybe something good will happen, or maybe something bad will happen that will lead to a change. (I might be willing to take the risk). Part of me thinks that he can’t hold on indefinitely to the fantasy that we were terrible parents. I keep thinking, that at some point he will miss our love, and all the good memories will start to kick in.

here to help-He already feels those things. He said he hates his life and hates us, has threatened to use drugs, join a gang, get a tatoo and become a criminal. He has become the complete antithesis of anything we might have expected he’d become. All my kids tell me that we always ‘favored’ him, gave him more, said yes more..and still do! And they’re right, bc he ‘s the bachur, and we adored him! But for some crooked reason, he never felt it. My husband and I would die for him, and yet he has told us he wishes we would die…

We had an agreement that I would give him my computer, and he would come home at a reasonable hour, and speak to us with derech eretz. After giving in so many times, even though he spoke terrible to us, and cursed, and came home late, I still gave him the computer. But terrible mother that I am, I had a limit. And when he stayed out all night and pranced in cursing us at the shabbos table in front of our kids, and embarrased us in front of our neighbors bc he hangs out sometimes in front of our building with his loud obnoxious chevra, I took away the computer. I can’t write what he said to me, bc the mods won’t let it through. I’ll just hint that if I suddenly stop writing, you’ll know that it’s bc he gave in to his anger in the most extreme way.

Even today, when he told me that he knows that I hate him (bc I am saying no to the computer), I told him that me and his father have been loving him for 16 years, and we are so sad that he doesn’t feel it. I told him that I would do anything to help him, but that this time, he went too far…that even his chevra would not be his friends if he treated them the way he treats us. My daughter just told me that the reason he wants the computer is so that he can put things on his USB, and then give it to the chevra, making him a ‘big man’ with the crowd. I’m not sure I want to make him ‘Mr. Popularity’ with his street crowd. Do you still think he should stay at home? And probably, you think I should give him the computer, right?

here to help-By the way, in an effort to be sensitive to my son’s feelings of wanting cigarettes, my husband bought him the electric ones, thinking they aren’t harmful like the regular ones. But my son used it on Shabbos, and my husband now feels like he was a shaliach for him breaking Shabbos. If he had smoked the regular ones on Shabbos, it would be on my son’s cheshbon, but…

here to help-He wants me to buy him cigarettes, so according to what you said, I should? Isn’t there any limit to this line of reasoning? He also wants hard liquor every once in a while.

Also, the more time he spends with his chevra, the more distant and disconnected/angry he is with us. If ‘the sky’s the limit’ in how much time he can spend with these kids, how will he ever come close to us again?

I hope we have a peaceful Shabbos.

here to help-no problem with 1-4. Does #5 mean he’s not allowed to know that we’d like him home at a decent time? We don’t enforce it obviously, but usually before he leaves the house, I’ll say that I love him, and please try to pay attention to the time. Should I stop?