write or wrong

zahavasdad-the good news is, yes my son likes girls. But the bad news is that, yes my son likes girls…

Well, the news is out My son pierced his ear, and is soooo happy about it. Now he wants more jewelry, like necklaces and bracelets.

I didn’t react too much, we were kind of ‘prepared’ that it was coming. But needless to say, my husband is quite upset. The past few days, he’s been mechalel Shabbos more openly, mostly in his own room, but he also made phone calls from the kitchen. It’s such a bad feeling that my home is not shomer Shabbos. I’m so angry that he did this to us. At least, I want my home to be Shomer Shabbos, and when he gets his own home, let him do whatever he wants. Do I have the right to tell him this? Can I insist that at least while he is in my home, he should be respectful of this?

aries2756-I didn’t realize that some threads were ‘safe’ while others weren’t. Don’t they all basically work the same way? I just thought that it would be too confusing if there were different agendas going on at the same time. Also, the people that might be able to help her wouldn’t necessarily come to this thread, bc the topic is different and it wouldn’t necessarily bring them. But if you feel it would work out, then feel free…

soliek-So good to hear from you again!! Thanks for your insight, and I’m sure you’re right. But the problem is, that I don’t think he feels our love. If he’s home at all, he’s usually so full of anger, that it’s hard to have any peaceful conversation without his anger errupting, and us trying to gracefully pull out of the conversation. I told my husband not to even talk to him at all right now, bc EVERYTHING makes my son blow up and talk chutzpadik to us.

David Hamelech-Thanks for your words of chizuk. You have a lot of insight and it helps to hear it. I hope you are right, that he will come back one day. I just hope I survive until then..

Derech Hamelech-I wish I knew their secret, bc when I look back at our situation, I can’t figure out why my son doesn’t feel like that, why doesn’t he feel that he can’t hurt his parents? I always had a great relationship with my son, we used to talk a lot, and he confided in me. My husband and I are very loving to our children, affectionate, communicating…what went wrong? A part of me still can’t believe that this happened, when we seemed to have such a good realtionship with him. I keep thinking he’s going to wake up one morning, and be back to the way he was. I miss him so much. I don’t just miss his look, I miss my son’s personality, his smile, his wisdom, spending time with him. I could never have done/said some of the things he does/says to my parents in a million years! The chutzpah has no limit and no remorse. My husband said it’s ‘the generation’, a sign of the times. We know families that get the same chutzpah/disrespect from their kids that we get. I just know, that I could NEVER have hurt my parents like this. I even had guilt moving to Israel, bc I didn’t want to hurt my parents. I actually asked for their consent (and mechila) to move here (I was already married with kids) bc I couldn’t bear the guilt.

I think those of you who have questions, whether it’s about Hashem, His Torah, emunah or anything else, you need to speak to someone one on one, someone who knows you, someone you trust to open up to. There are loads of resources including books, shiurim, seminars and Rebbes/Rebbetzins who have the sensitivity and expertise to deal with any kind of question. Or, you could start a thread asking questions, and see if you get the answers you seek..:)

ultimateskier-how old are you? You sound mature, and perhaps a certain maturity is needed in order to make the decisions you made. I don’t think my son is there yet.

Derech Hamelech-thanks for your wise suggestions. My husband is also in terrible pain over my son, but he deals with it differently. He is angry with him for what he’s doing. I just cry.

daniela-we are in kesher with a Rav, and have direction. But it helps tremendously to hear from others who have gone/are going through this or who have some experience in dealing with this.

As I write all this, I realize that you all have a 2 day Yom Tov (we have only 1). It’s a mitzvah to be happy at this time, and we are really trying to be happy, even though we have hardly seen our son. It is truly a nisayon. It drizzled a little on Sukkos, and I’m hoping that as the rainy season comes, my son will spend more time at home. Chag Sameach to all..

David Hamelech-Thanks for your insight and suggestions. I’d like to be able to do some of the things you mentioned, but my son is so rarely home, there’s almost no opportunity to do things with him. What helped you to come back?

Shabbos was better. He was so tired from having stayed out so late the night before, that he couldn’t get up ’til past midnight. His chevra apparently had been looking for him, but when they couldn’t find him, they left without him. He actually went out looking for them, but came back after he couldn’t find them. It gave us a chance to talk a little, which was nice…

aries2756-but he keeps bouncing from one direction to another. Now, he took off the tsitsis AND the kipa, and went out with some other kids.

He went to Neilah bc he heard that it would erase all his aveiros, which is fine. But then only a few hours later, he’s right back to doing them. I should just be completely quiet and not say anything?

I hope everyone had an easy fast!

Well, we seem to be on a roller coaster. Erev YK, my son went out with his friends, ripped blue jeans and all, and stayed out all night. I was hoping he might feel something, but the intensity of the day seemed to slip right by him. Until Neilah. Suddenly, he showed up in Shul, black jeans and a white shirt, and davened Neilah!! I was so excited! I couldn’t believe it! I didn’t realize how much I miss seeing him in black and white. I know it sounds superficial, but it’s the way I’m used to seeing him, and that look has been gone for about 5 months. Anyway, my simcha was short lived, bc Motzei YK, he took everything off, reverted back to a t-shirt, and stayed out all night again with his friends, angry as ever. I’m not sure what to make of this?

shein-what’s the point of CY doing that? Do they discuss the topic afterwards?

S1/Ultimateskier-I’m not sure he really wanted us to know it bc it came about in a round about way (and maybe it’s not even true??). At the Shabbos table, he started to hit a younger brother. When asked why he was hitting him, he said it was bc he dropped challah crumbs in the salad. So I said, why should he get hit for that? He said, bc he deserves it. So I said (I couldn’t resist), if that’s what he deserves for dropping challah crumbs into the salad, what must someone deserve if he is being mechalel Shabbos? That’s when he said he doesn’t mechalel Shabbos. He said that he decided on Rosh Hashanah he would try to stop. Ya think it was genuine?

Well, we had a bit of a shock this Shabbos, although it didn’t last. As my son was going out Friday afternoon, I noticed he was wearing Tsitsit! So I asked him why he was wearing tsitsit? He said, he wanted to see how it looks with jeans. However, when he came home, he promptly took it off bc it was ‘itching’ him. The other interesting development was that he said, on Rosh Hashanah he decided he would try not to be mechalel Shabbos. I’m trying not to get too excited….which was easy bc he was extremely angry with us all Shabbos.

S1-Your post concerns me. First of all, you must get in touch with a Rabbi/Rebbetzin that you can speak to one on one. You need more than encouragement, you need to believe in yourself. What do you mean you were ‘becoming so good”? You ARE good, you are intrinsically good and nothing can change that. Perhaps you are confused, or don’t feel strong enough to fight the yetser hara. If you like to read, there are wonderful books that can help strengthen your emunah and bitachon. Whenever we feel challenged, for whatever reason, ie a child OTD, a sick family member etc, we MUST strengthen our emunah, bc ultimately, it is a test for US. I found the following books to be very helpful:

1. Don’t Give Up by Rabbi Leib Pinter

2. Trust Me by Rabbi Eliezer Parkoff

3. Chizuk by Rabbi Eliezer Parkoff

ganse-knacker-thanks for the suggestions and your offer to help. You are right about the communities being very polarized, maybe that’s part of the problem. Right now, my son wouldn’t consider traveling anywhere. But we have considered moving to a different neighborhood. A lot of other things are also at stake, so we are evaluating the pros and cons right now, and haven’t yet come to a decision.

Ultimateskier-I have that shiur by Rabbi Rubinstein, and have listened to it a few times. I’m so happy for you that you found someone who could teach you the beauty of Torah! Maybe as parents, somehow, the message doesn’t always come across to our children even though we feel it inside. I would be interested to know who the speaker was and the name of his book. You are right that the spark has to be ignited, and that it has to come on its own. I’m just so afraid that my son has pushed away all the possible shlichim who might have had this positive influence, and traded them in for bad “friendships”. You hit the nail on the head when you said ‘he has to open up to Judaism, and from there it will get better’. Well, if Rosh Hashanah didn’t inspire him, what will? I will keep praying nonetheless. Thanks for your insight,

S1-That’s the answer…if only my son could see his chevra differently, not as the tsaddikim he thinks they are. Baruch Hashem, you were able to see it early. Right now, my son doesn’t want to change, but thanks for your tefillah..

caarpediiem-thanks so much for your insight and suggestions. Perhaps, from the perspective of one who was OTD, you are right in your assessment of things. But from the perspective of the parents, I find it nearly impossible to sit idly by while my son falls further and further. It’s not just a fall from yiddishkeit, it is a transition into a derelict, one who curses, smokes, stays out all night and (most recently, he admitted) experiments with drugs. He has already prepared us about getting piercings, and socializing with girls. At this point, I would consider anything that could help, including co-parenting. The only thing is, that I was hoping the family atmosphere of our home would help trigger positive feelings. I’m still very loving to my son (when he’s in a normal mood), and try not to react when he’s in one of his angry moods. As much as he is angry with us, I don’t think we were horrible parents and keep hoping that bc we’re not a dysfunctional family, then hopefully (any minute now…?) he’ll snap out of it. I know it’s wishful thinking, but I don’t think he went down this path bc of the home. Would co-parenting be indicated in a functional family? I googled Areivim and they are based in NY, we live in Israel. We have been trying to do Twisted Parenting, and while we agree with the principles behind it, we find it extremely difficult to do consistently. I appreciate your post, and found it to be very helpful. Feel free to offer more suggestions..

aries2756=Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think I have to do this collectively, or should I sit with each kid individually, bc each child has a different level of understanding? We are already a little worried about how his behavior will impact on the chag. He stays out all night, and outwardly defies all our house rules, not to mention he’s mechalel Shabbos. And it’s not like he’s in some unknown location, he’s right here in our own neighborhood. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad. In some ways, I prefer that he’s close to the house instead of in some distant city in Israel. However, how should I behave when I pass right by him and 10 or so of his chevra on my way to food shopping? Do I wave hello? ignore him? pretend we don’t know eachother? What if he’ll be outside our shul on RH? And what exactly should I tell the kids, their brother is lost, daven for him?

Syag Lchochma-Wow, I didn’t really think about that, but it sounds right. Maybe now that argument would work…thanks.

Every time it looks like things might be getting better, we take a turn for the worse. My son told us he is getting an earring, and my husband forgot to act ‘twisted’. He got so upset, and basically ‘forbid’ him from doing it. Now I’m afraid that it’s almost a guarrantee that he WILL do it. The twisted approach is to offer no resistance, and even buy him the earring! But what is the alternative? How can we influence him not to do it? Is it possible?

zahvasdad-you are right. I just heard a shiur by Rav Shimon Russell who is a psychologist who works with kids OTD. You can’t believe some of the sad things he talks about. Although hopefully it is not the norm, he talks about terrible chinuch mistakes that were made in the BY/Yeshiva system that influenced kids to go OTD. Even today, when we should be more educated and aware, these mistakes are still happening. And you’re right, it is a ‘sellers’ market. It’s actually easier to get into college than it is to go to gan.

Imaof3-would love to read that article. That would make sense with my son, since the kids definitely made him feel like he doesn’t belong. But today, I was thinking about my other son. He is 13 years old, and he is learning 10 hours a day! With ADD! Couldn’t this be the reason that kids begin to hate learning? Even without ADD, it is enormous pressure that we are putting on CHILDREN. They may be dressed up like men, with their black hats and suits, but inside, they are still little kids. I hope to G-d we are not the cause of our kids going OTD…

S1- maybe the age itself is rebellious, and like you said, they’ll have to find the beauty themselves. Thanks for your advice.

CR Queen-I hope you are right, that it’s just a matter of giving them their space, and they will come back.

Chloqueen- I agree that he needs other people who care about him, and not just us. We are trying to reach some of his Rebbes from the past, and ask them to keep a kesher with him. Even some of his friends from yeshiva.