write or wrong

Imaofthree-no, he doesn’t get an allowamce. He has some money from when he used to study during vacation, and the school paid them. He also got some Hanukah/birthday money. But basically, since he as SO MUCH time on his hands, we’ve told him that if he isn’t in school, then perhaps he should work and earn extra money. The truth is, he’d probably spend a large part of it on cigarettes unfortunately…

aries2756-you are right, I’ll take the baby steps over no steps at all. Another baby step is that he’s been coming home at night, (maybe bc it’s getting cold), but I’m happy nonetheless…

Syag Lchochma/aries2756-I don’t know why he stopped (I don’t know why he started either). I know that he took a tiny break from staying out all night with his chevra, and then suddenly he told me to remind him to put on tefillin. But now he stopped. Should I do anything, or just keep quiet?

Don’t know why, and I’m not asking any questions, but my son put on tefillin yesterday. Perhaps it’s the light of Hanukah trying to break through!

zahavasdad-I don’t want to minimze what this man did to my son, but at the same time, I wouldn’t label him as an ‘abuser’. The word ‘abuser’ has a more sinister and ongoing connotation, and whether he is or not, I have no idea. It is sufficient for me to say that he lost control of his emotions, or he is misguided in what he thinks the Torah tells him to do, or both.

Regarding your comments about calling the police vs going to a Rav, I am reminded of a saying I once heard: “It is more important to be smart than right”. I may have reason to go to the police, and if this were more than just a (known) isolated event, I probably would. But at this point, I think it is sufficient to take him to a Beis Din.

Syag Lchochma- Thanks!

aries2756-I will discuss it with my son and see if it’s something he’d be willing to do. I do agree with you that it would be very healing/therapeutic for him and his chevra if they would agree to do it. Perhaps, noting Syag Lchochma’s comments, they could each write a letter to their aggressor, and my younger son could write the letter to this man. For the older boys, it doesn’t really matter if the letter ever really gets to their aggressor, what matters is that they vent and get it out, rather than letting it brew inside them, and cause them to ultimately hurt themselves. I like the idea.

zahavasdad-I agree with you, although I am more saddened by the Talmid Chacham who gets it wrong, bc of the terrible abuse of his title, and the resulting chilul Hashem.

crisisoftheweek-Imaofthree has a good sense of what the repercussions would be if we went to the police. The truth is, it’s not so simple. There would be a lot of backlash, and since this man is a part of a community who tend to be quite vocal and, dare I say, physical, I’m not sure I wouldn’t be rocking my own boat moreso than his.

With all this said, I still haven’t ruled it out.

Imaofthree-when my husband and I met with him motsei Shabbos, at some point, he had enough of our complaints against him, and he said, “So what do you want now?”. My husband said he wanted him to apologize to my son, but I said, “I’ll tell you what I want. I want to call the police” at which he threw me a surprised look. I think the threat was obvious, and if he dares to touch any of my children again, I won’t wait for permission from anyone to take this to the limit. I do have the names of the witnesses, as we all live in the same neighborhood. There is another option other than going to the police, and that is to take him to a Beis Din. Don’t know yet what to do. I guess we’ll see if he has the decency (derech eretz???) to apologize to my son.

zahavasdad-In a way, I’m still torn as to whether or not I should have called the police and opened a tik on him. I know my son feels badly that we didn’t do it, bc in his (immature) eyes, we ‘didn’t do anything”. He got hit 2 times, was pushed and embarrased in front of dozens of kids, and all this guy got back was that we ‘spoke to the Rav”. In his eyes, it wasn’t equal. Yet I know the police just love this kind of stuff, bc they are already so against the religious.

aries2756, hudi,zahavasdad, Syag Lchochma and Imaofthree: Yes, we explained to our son how wrong it was what this man did, and we went to great lengths to demonstrate this as well, by speaking to this man directly as well as 2 Rabbonim. But I would hate to have to depend upon the possibility of my son finding more appropriate role models later in life, in order to undo the distorted, abusive impression of religious people this man gave my child. Of course, that is what has to happen, that he’ll see the ‘bigger picture’, that not all religious people are like this, that this was, in fact, a sick man and that his “Torah” is actually no Torah at all. But look at how much suffering my other son (and us!) are going through, waiting for HIM to see the bigger picture. He also had some negative experiences, and there’s no guarrantee that he will come out with his yiddishkeit intact. Baruch Hashem Imaofthree, you were able to do it. I can only pray that Hashem will send the right shaliach to help my son as well.

The 2nd part of this story is that we did go speak to the kehilla Rav, who was horrified at what happened. He wanted us to make sure that my son knows this man was wrong, and that he is completely against what this man did. Yet, he said that there is NO SOLUTION! When I asked him to go speak to this man, he said that he could, but it wouldn’t do any good. He said that these people don’t listen to anybody. To make it worse, you wouldn’t believe it, but he is a very chashuva Talmid Chacham. It’s enough to challenge your own yiddishkeit…..

It doesn’t look like my son is going to continue with yeshiva at all. He hasn’t gone to school for a few days, and I don’t know if he’s going back. He says he prefers a yeshiva with a dorm, but he hasn’t really done anything to get into one. He looks depressed, but he won’t open up. I keep asking him, what can I do to help him? I am so desperate to help him, but he pushes us away and stays out all night with his friends. I don’t think he’s happy with them, bc he comes home angry and short tempered.

As an aside, I want to tell you what happened to my other son this past Shabbos. I am digressing for a reason, bc it shows how in some ways, WE are responsible for PUSHING kids OTD. My other Bar Mitzvah boy was playing in the park on Shabbos, which was packed with kids. The park is next to a Shul on one side, and an open valley on the other. Apparently, my son was throwing rocks into the valley. A religious man came over to my son and screamed at him that he was mechalel Shabbos. He then hit my son hard in the back of his head, whereby he fell to the ground. When my son got up, he grabbed him by the collar of his shirt and pushed him, so that he fell close to the edge of the valley (according to 5 eyewitnesses). By this time, he was crying, and some kids belonging to my OTD son’s chevra, came to his rescue, and helped my son away from this man. Needless to say, I am beside myself. My husband and I went to the park to find this man, who apparently had left. I spoke to numerous kids, who all said the same story as my son. Truthfully, I really just wanted to call the police.

After we calmed down and Shabbos was over, we tried to meet with the Rav of our kehilla, who wasn’t available until later today. B’ezras Hashem, we will speak to him later. In the meantime, my husband spoke with his Rav, who told us to try to resolve this with the man. We went to his home last night, and spoke to him at length. He very, matter of factly, admitted hitting my son bc he was mechalel Shabbos.

My husband tried to explain to this “Talmid Chacham” that what he did was worse than what my 14 year old did. He just kept saying that my son was mechalel Shabbos. He never even considered trying to explain to my son that he was doing something wrong…or to speak to my husband about it. As my husband was so calmly speaking to him, he just kept saying “I hear you”, but never once did he say “you’re right, I understand, I made a mistake”. In fact, he said the opposite. He said, by halacha, HE WAS RIGHT TO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it any wonder that our kids hate religion and are going off the derech? I am only a protective mother, and I can’t do anything to change the way some people see things. But there is something terribly wrong with the beliefs of some people, and perhaps their Rav, or SOMEBODY should speak to them about the terrible damage they may cause someone. They may think that all their hours of studying gemara is winning them big points in shamayim, but they may find out once they get there, that they killed a few yiddishe neshamas along the way, Hashem yirachem. I don’t want this thread to turn into ‘religion/religious bashing’, but I do want to bring attention to the fact that we need to address some of the causes of kids going OTD, or we will just be running on a treadmill, trying endlessly to save our innocent children from the terrible mistakes we are making, Hashem help us.

kkls45-I agree with you completely. I always tell my husband, after we’ve spent hours brainstorming what to do, that there really is only one thing we can do, and that is to daven. I hope your parents are trying to get some help for your brother, before things, chas v’shalom change for the worse. A rebellious child is more at risk, and should have someone to talk to.

aries2756-I don’t mean he should go to a regular yeshiva with a dorm. Apparently, there are many low pressure ‘yeshivas’ where he doesn’t have to wear a kipa, he can wear jeans and an earring, and they don’t put any pressure on them to observe mitzvos. They learn a minimum amount of Torah, since that’s about all they can tolerate, and the rest is secular studies and classes that teach them a profession. I almost believe he would study Torah an entire day, if all the kids in his chevra were doing it. He is ‘following the crowd’, but every once in a while, I try to insert the voice of reason by showing him how these kids are all doing what’s good for them, even at his expense, so shouldn’t he do what’s good for him? He just has to figure out what that is exactly.

Well, the simcha is now behind us, and the last of my family leaves today. We hardly saw my son the whole time. He sleeps out almost every night, comes home rarely, or only to sleep. He had no school for a week bc of the war, and he spent all that time wih his chevra. I’m not joking when I say that when I saw him yesterday, I thought he grew about an inch since I last saw him. Various shlichim have reached out to him, but he pushes everyone away in order to be with his chevra. Unless he has the inner strength/self esteem to do things without them, I don’t see how he’ll ever make good decisions. He tells everyone who will listen that he hates the Haredim, but meanwhile his OTD chevra controls him.

Imma613 and hudi-thanks for your blessings and kind words.

crgo-your post really warmed my heart. I didn’t actually make much of the fact that my son and his friend came, but from your post and aries2756’s, I now think that perhaps it was a kind of victory. B’H we were able to put aside our differences, and come together b’simcha this one evening. I’m touched that you would have the patience to follow this thread from the beginning, and am so happy you decided to write. Hope you will continue..

the hock, Syag Lchochma, and Imma613-thank-you for all your well wishes. The simcha went well, B’H. It started out a little rough during picture time. My husband was desperately hoping my son would change his clothes from jeans, colored shirt and earring, to something a little more mekubad. But, it didn’t go. The funny thing is, bc of my son’s ‘look’, it added a bit of humor to the pictures, instead of all the serious faces we usually have, there was joking, and a more relaxed atmosphere to the pictures. Hope it was captured. It really was a lot of fun, and I had a great time. My friends were quite supportive, and I discovered a few more moms like me. We all agreed that there is an epidemic of kids going OTD, and that it is almost becoming ‘popular’ to ‘join the crowd’!!. So sad.

B’H, my son stayed the whole time! I was worried that he wouldn’t, but he brought one of his friends, and that was the magic ingredient. My husband and I were worried beforehand that we wouldn’t be able to be happy for the simcha, and we had to give eachother pep talks all morning (really, all month). But B’H, once the music started, everything started to melt away. Wish you were all there…….

Today’s the day of our simcha, and things are NOT going smoothly. The atmosphere in my home is definitely in sync with the rockets flying over Israel, Hashem Yirachem. aries2756, I have your voice in my head as I face my son’s anger, and am trying to see it not as an attack against us, but rather frustration at having to cope with his own feelings. But he is REALLY challenging my husband to the EXTREME with his anger and foul language. Hashem, save my family….and all Am Yisrael…….

aries2756-we would consider a secular school, college,a trade school, anything where he would learn something, including responsibility. But he considers the school he goes to now as being enough. Between all the days he missed by taking ‘vacation’ with his friends, and now with the school being closed bc of the war, it feels like he’s been out of school more than in school. I tried again to talk to him about a dormitory-like school where it would seem to satisfy his need for more independence, but he’s non commital. When you said “real life is not about hanging out and being a nobody’, you are so right. But my son can’t accept that right now. He would answer you, that that is exactly what he wants to be. Perhaps when his anger subsides and he’s less defensive, he can think things through more clearly and he’ll realize that it’s true.

My parents/in-laws are upset my son didn’t sleep home since they’re here. My mother-in-law got up every hour during the night, checking his bed. She is very sad, like me. He is hardly with the family at all. It scares me that he’s so wrapped up in his world that he doesn’t even feel anything for us.

aries2756-thanks for the hug. The family is arriving. A few shocked looks when they saw my son. A lot of kiruv going on. Maybe it will help. My son took off his earring temporarily. Hoping it will be permanent.

So far, things are going okay…

Imaofthree-thanks, I will try.