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write or wrongParticipant
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You are right that it was an attack on my emunah, but I just spoke with someone who gave me a huge emunah boost. I asked her, how could it be from Shamayim that my son went OTD? Does that mean Hashem wanted my son to go OTD? And how is his going OTD l’tovah? She said all the circumstances that lead to his going OTD were pre-ordained bc he was meant to have this nisayon. This is the path my child needs to go on, for whatever reason. It is my child’s tikkun, and I can’t change it. (I always thought that it can’t be l’tovah bc my son’s not doing the mitzvos), but it is l’tovah bc it is a tikkun for him, as well as for me and my husband. My job, she said, is to love and accept him (and accept the nisayon with simcha, knowing that it is a tikkun for all of us), and daven for his return.
I know you guys have all been telling me this in different ways for the past 10 months, but truthfully, I need to keep reminding myself of it bc every once in a while, I start to feel guilty or depressed that things aren’t the way they used to be. Usually this happens every time I see a yeshiva bachur in black and white, or I’ll pass my son’s old yeshiva, or I’ll see another kid from his class…who’s now doing great in yeshiva gedola….
write or wrongParticipantinterjection-I hope you are right. I can’t wait for some maturity to ‘kick in’. I just wonder, if there are any statistics correlating the age at which a child goes off the derech and the chances of coming back, or if ‘how long they are off’ affects the chances of coming back. Also, does it matter how severely they went OTD?
My husband told me not to pay attention to statistics, hakol m’Shamayim…
write or wrongParticipantI just re-read an article that said, “One year or two years in the off-the derech lifestyle pretty much guarantees a point of no return.” Do you think this is true? We are getting close to the 1 year mark where my son started to hang out with a ‘bad’ crowd, which eventually resulted in him not wanting to finish school. I know the sooner they come back, the better, but is there really a point of no return?
write or wrongParticipantaries2756,Imaofthree, Superme, ThePurpleOne, Nechomah-thanks for your support. Unfortunately for us in Israel, there are not as many organizations/people who have real PROFESSIONAL experience/knowledge in dealing with this issue as you have in NY…
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-something else has come up, but I don’t want to post it. I wanted to ‘talk’ to you, but the mods wouldn’t let my request come through….
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-I have a matsav with my son…
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-you are right. But I’m so worried that either they will throw my son out of the school, or he will quit. He just told me that most of the kids aren’t going back, some are taking another few days off, and some are quitting! I don’t think he has the self confidence to do what’s good for him in spite of his friends. And it’s true, he has to suffer the consequences of his choices, yet he seems content to go wherever ‘the wind blows’, without any real motivation to achieve any particular goal. I hope I’m wrong..
write or wrongParticipantaries2756/Imaofthree-Apparently they are going to meet with all the kids who didn’t show up, next week and decide what to do. I also hope they keep him in the program, bc the alternative is coming home, and staying out all night with his friends again. This has been a challenging week….
write or wrongParticipantThs school called my husband, bc they are pretty upset that no one showed up this week for school. (They all took off this week for the wedding!). They are calling a meeting to determine who’s serious and who’s not, then they will decide who can stay/what to do with each student. I told my husband that we shouldn’t discuss it with our son, instead, we should let him feel the consequences of his choices…
write or wrongParticipantThanks aries2756.
Imaofthree-those were exactly my concerns. According to my son, he says they gave him permission. Although it doesn’t sound right, it might be true bc of another incident that happened recently. According to the rules of the school, they wanted my son to cut his hair, but he refused. Instead of kicking him out, they actually bent the rules for him bc they like the way he studies! Go figure…
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-great advice, but it won’t work on my son. It’s his friend’s brother who’s getting married, and my son’s friend is al hapanim, and doesn’t have the maturity to think the way you mentioned. I’m starting to think that maturity is a big part of this problem..
write or wrongParticipantaries2756, are you still here?
These Shabbos visits are quite a strain, and maybe I need some advice as to how to get through them. The only way to keep the peace, it seems, is for me and my husband to be mute, perhaps with only some nods and smiles. Then, after doing all his laundry and providing endless snacks, no real food mind you, only sugar-filled treats, we are to then hand over some spending money, cigarette money, or any other money he thinks he might need for things that might come up. Now, I can tell you, my husband and I are not playing our roles terribly well. Sometimes we do speak, and then usually a small war breaks out in my kitchen. This is bc usually we say things that don’t enforce the fantasy that everything he is doing is absolutely correct! For instance, he is planning to go to a friend’s wedding on Tue, so he’s not planning to go to school the whole week! Now doesn’t that make perfect sense? So when I questioned why he had to miss the whole week bc of it, he became enraged at me. So instead of having only a strained Shabbos,I can probably look forward to a strained week! Any advice?
write or wrongParticipantdaniela-I’m not sure kids don’t do those things. My girls babysit, and definitely help out in the house. While my boys have less available time, they’ll also pitch in when they can. But I don’t think it should be “all work and no play”. Kids should have time to ‘be kids’ without having to either study or do chores. My complaint is that they’re not so interested in the glatt kosher outlets, especially when we are surrounded by non kosher ones that appear so tempting…
write or wrongParticipantConfucious-“I’d definitely say it is easier for a BT to go OTD than for an FFB. It going back to somewhere he already was, whereas for an FFB it is breaking new ground. I’d also say it is more prevelent with BTs (percentage wise).”
I’d definitely disagree with this. A BT has made an informed choice to leave the secular world and embrace the religious one, while an FFB is just continuing in the path of his parents. It’s not about “breaking new ground”, it’s about temptation. The BT has already been there and saw the sheker. But the FFB might think the grass looks greener…
write or wrongParticipantTheBearIsBack-I really think the problem is that we’re not insulated enough from outside influences, which are goyishe in nature or filled with tumah. For instance, when kids come home from school, they feel like they have nothing to do. If you don’t give them high tech games to play with, they’re bored. What ever happened to playing a good old game of Monopoly? Checkers? It seems so archaic, that my kids look at me as if I have 2 heads whenever I suggest it. And if you don’t give your kids the high tech stuff, they will either walk aroud the house aimlessly, or end up being tempted to find “fun” other places. This translates into making connections with kids who have the high tech stuff. And there you have the additional risk of kids being pulled into the internet world (which again, translates into exposure to the goyishe, secular, tumah-filled world)) that you were trying to protect them from.
write or wrongParticipantTheBearIsBack-one more point. As you can see even here in the last dozen or so posts,a person can completely miscontrue the facts, and come to the wrong conclusion. Comments that were meant to be helpful were heard as an accusation. Perhaps this also occurs in the outside world with our teenagers? We can’t attribute all the reasons for going OTD to outside circumstances bc it very much has to do with how the person is programmed to see things.
write or wrongParticipantTheBearIsBack-Too cliche. There are dozens of reasons why a kid goes off the derech, and probably the biggest factor has to do with the genetic make up of the child. Two kids can go through the same/similar experiences, yet one can roll with the punches, while the other goes off the derech. The personality/ego strength of the child sets the tone. Then other factors like the home, school, Rebbes, friends, neighbors and quality close relationships all have their impact. Couple this with various external factors such as illness, divorce, ADHD, trauma etc and there you have the equation for risk. Temptation and mixed messages might confuse a child. But some kids will go to appropriate sources for answers, and others won’t.
write or wrongParticipantDaasYochid-thank-you. It’s so nice to be understood…
write or wrongParticipantsmc-I hope so. Actually, an amazing thing happened on his last visit home. Not sure what to make of it at this point, so we’ll see where it goes. It could just be he had a fleeting moment of inspiration, but he told us he wants to go to college and become a lawyer! I’ll keep you posted..
write or wrongParticipantpurplicious-I never said that Rabbi Goldwasser is the ‘the wrong kind of people”. I said to verify that it was actually him.
write or wrongParticipantPurplicious-I think you should verify that the call was authentic. There’s too much detail being exchanged over here, and while you may sincerely want to help, you could being doing damage if you attract the wrong people.
write or wrongParticipantShiraTobala-No. That’s not really the focus of the school. Like I said, it’s not a yeshiva, and the school doesn’t really do kiruv. It’s a technological school where he can learn a trade. If he ever goes back to the derech, I really don’t see it happening in the near future, unfortunately.
purplicious-you have to find the right person for her to speak to. Who does she respect? Who does she trust? Try to make her a connection, and offer to go with her. Tell her not to do anything drastic until you’ve had a chance to put her in touch with someone who CAN answer her questions. I don’t know where you live, but what about Arachim? The Jewish Renaissance Center? I live in Israel, so I’m not too familiar with resources in the States anymore.
write or wrongParticipantWhy was this girl referred to a male therapist to begin with? There are many qualified female therapists….
write or wrongParticipantShiraTobala-we presnted him with all the options, and in some way, we’re lucky he’s doing anything at all. He really wanted to do nothing. He’s completely against any type of yeshiva, no matter where it is. I’m hoping Hashem will send him the right shlichim to bring him back, wherever he is.
write or wrongParticipantShiraTobala-Thanks…but my son absolutely, positively does not want a yeshiva. Also, we live in Israel and we’re not looking to send him to the States. But I checked it out online and it looks good.
A mamin-Amen, thank-you…and may Hashem answer your prayers!
write or wrongParticipanta mamin-I didn’t say anything negative about the Satmar community, nor any other community. I don’t have any personal connection to them, so I’m not familiar with them too much. It could be that this man just had exposure to the wrong types of people within the Satmar community. My son will tell you the same thing about the Haredim. Instead of focusing on the various individuals who hurt him, he generalizes his hatred to the Haredi world. And I think, as you mentioned, it also has to do with the various weaknesses and personality of the person who was hurt. For some it may feel like a scratch, and for others it feels like major surgery…
write or wrongParticipantThe main isssue brought up by MorahRach shows that the man’s questions were never answered. This is something that could have happened within any community. That should be the focus, and perhaps every community should self examine how they deal with this issue. As far as whether or not someone is really a Jew, it is a halachic decision based on whether or not you were born of a Jewish mother, like aries says. Period. Unfortunately for that man, he may really know that. But the rejection from his community just compounds the underlying problem, that he couldn’t find reasons to stay a practicing Jew. That’s the real issue. Calling him a non-Jew is just a terrible, misinformed, hurtful response to his going OTD. And I’ll tell you the truth, I think there may be other groups of people or individuals who could be just as hurtful…
write or wrongParticipantMorahRach-That is very sad. I agree with aries2756. Maybe you could also mekarev your SIL before she strays further.
One thing I’ve learned from this whole saga with my son going OTD, is that I don’t think it was one particular thing that caused my son to go off, but a culmination of various different events/people…to the extent that if even one of the things didn’t happen, he might not have gone off. This shows me that despite all my soul searching, I can’t help but see the hand of Hashem in this painful picture. Everything was so perfectly orchestrated so as to give my son the full disappointment with the religious world. Perhaps it is his nisayon, and maybe your SIL’s boyfriend’s as well, to separate the ‘actors’ , whose performance was poor, from the Script….
write or wrongParticipanthudi-‘torture’ sounds like the right word.
superstar-I’m not so sure the boy feels badly, but there were a number of adults who probably inflicted just as much, if not worse, emotional damage. I have cried in front of my son periodically, but I try very hard not to bc it only makes him angry. It doesn’t elicit the sympathetic response you might expect.
Imaof3-I know you are right. I wrote my previous post at a moment where I was feeling pretty badly, I don’t blame the Haredim as a group. It was a few select people that probably inflicted the most damage, and it had nothing to do with being religious. I’m hoping one day my son will see that as well. And you are right, Baruch Hashem he is learning.
Thanks to all for your comments!
write or wrongParticipantWell, this Shabbos was pretty much a repeat of last Shabbos. We hardly saw my son. He didn’t come to any meals, and stayed out late at night with friends. He actuallly went to a club with mixed dancing, which is really breaking me. He is trying so hard to become secular, and keeps telling me and my husband how he hates the Haredim. How on earth did he get to this point? I told him that he shouldn’t forget that the 2 people who love him the most are Haredim, but it really makes no impact. I’ve done so much soul searching since this whole thing started, and basically, relived his entire childhood over and over again in my mind, trying to find my mistakes. I can only chozer b’teshuva for what I might have done….but what about all the Haredim who hurt my son? Do they even know who they are and what they’ve done? It’s such a terrible mark on the “Haredim” who are destroying neshamas under the veil of Torah, who walk around with arrogant pride at their achievements, while looking down on all the lost souls who have left the derech….perhaps bc of them. Hashem yirachem.
write or wrongParticipantImaofthree-that is so wonderful to hear! Your friend must be happy beyond words. I will keep davening, thanks for giving me hope.
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-I just hope he doesn’t forget it!
Imma613-thanks. I’m looking forward to the ‘maturity’ part!
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-thanks. Today he actually called me from school, which was a nice surprise.
write or wrongParticipantZeesKite-Amen!
aries2756-so good to hear your ‘voice’!
I talked to my husband about this, but he’s afraid my son would find out we were behind the mechila, and then we’d also need mechila from my son! My son would be very upset that we approached this kid and ‘discussed’ him, and we couldn’t trust that this kid wouldn’t tell him. But we are looking into the possibility of other shlichim speaking to the boy.
Any advice on how to deal with the visits when he comes home for Shabbos? I don’t want to complain to my son that we don’t get to see him after him being away all week…..but we don’t get to see him on Shabbos, after him being away all week! I don’t want to give him pressure, but it is possible he saw my eyes tear up when I took him to the bus station…
write or wrongParticipantThe world exists in the merit of Limud Torah. If the Israeli gov’t pulls everyone out of yeshiva, in what merit will Israel be protected? In the merit of the IDF? Even Rav Ovadia went so far as to say that it would be better for the yeshiva bachurim to leave Israel and study in chutz l’Aretz, than to be drafted.
write or wrongParticipantZeesKite-even though finding out about this other kid killed pulled at my heart, I actually don’t wish for him to fall or get punished. I would, however be happy if he would, at some point, apologize to my son for the trauma he caused him. Who knows, maybe that’s the exact medicine my son needs to begin healing. I do hope that the one ‘who was lead astray’, however, will earn his share in Gan Eden….
shmoel-even though the other kid was a ‘kid’ at the time, he was warned by the Menahel to stop making fun of my son. It not only didn’t really stop, but it continued past Bar Mitzvah when he should have had more sense. But like I said to ZeesKite, I’m not looking for retribution…only perhaps teshuva on his part.
a mamin-thanks for the good wishes.
write or wrongParticipanta mamin-thanks for asking. I wanted to respond sooner, but things were a bit busy. My son started a new school last week. He sleeps there, and comes home once (or twice a month?) So he was home this Shabbos, and I am still recovering from the emotional setback I seem to be in. He is still minimally communicative, so we know very little about the school, except from what other people tell us. He keeps us at arm’s length in everything he does, and I can’t ask too many questions, or he will get angry. I basically take my lead from him. He seemed happy when he came home, but at night, he still hangs out with the same chevra, and usually comes home moody and short tempered. We didn’t really get to spend too much time with him bc after being out really late at night, he then sleeps the whole day. I was really sad taking him back to the bus station, and couldn’t help but reminisce about the boy he used to be, he’s so different now, and although I love him no matter what, he lost his sweet, gentle nature. And he almost never smiles anymore. Instead, he’s now a tough kid, with a tough exterior, trying so hard to fit in with the street crowd. I’m so afraid for him, and wish there was a way to build up his self esteem so that he could leave this chevra.
Meanwhile, my husband found out from someone, that the main kid who used to really bully/tease my son in school, the ‘leader of the pack’ went on to a really good yeshiva, and is doing great… while his victim, my son, is a broken soul.
write or wrongParticipantsmc-yes, but our concern is that it might be too open, and they could, chasv’shalom, end up hanging out in the streets anyway. The good news is that my husband spoke to someone who has their son there, and he’s happy, so I guess it can’t be that bad. I just really wish he wasn’t going with this chevra.
write or wrongParticipantsmc-We are going through a tiny power struggle. My son plans to try out the school next week, and if he likes it/they are happy with him, then my husband will go there to register him. So far, we only saw a brochure. It doesn’t look like something I would have wanted for him and I’m not so happy about this, but what choice do we have? I guess if my husband goes there and really hates it, then he can refuse to register him. But the alternative is to have him doing nothing…
write or wrongParticipantsmc-funny you should ask. Just today, my son went to look at a school, and decided to go. He starts next week. Not exactly sure how I feel about it, my husband has yet to go see it. It is not Haredi, not exactly sure what it is. I will know more after my husband sees it.
Things have been pretty much status quo, although my son was better about coming home at night, and at more reasonable hours. His anger has lessened, Baruch Hashem. I think the fact that we’ve been giving him little to no resistance gave him less of a need to fight us all the time (Avi Fishoff’s approach).
Oh, and I forgot to mention, he’s been wearing tsitsis the past few days! Wasn’t exactly sure what to make of it, so I didn’t post it. Wanted to make sure it would last. I think he’s still struggling with religion (no kipa), but at least whatever he’s doing, it’s coming from him. We’re still praying and hoping…
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-thanks for your words. I think I’m going to write them down and carry them with me.
write or wrongParticipantImaof3-will do.
interjection-I hope his ‘friends’ wouldn’t do that, but I guess I can’t be sure. I so much appreciate your perspective on this, and never really thought about what you said…that for a teenager to believe that his parents care about him, they can’t tell him how to live. So if we say anything, even as minor as “I can’t see your eyes, maybe you want to cut your bangs?” it would be proof that we don’t love him? When you say we need to accept him the way he is, the truth is we really have no choice. I’ll love him no matter what, but I really do wish he were learning (something!), and coming home at a reasonable hour. Does that mean we don’t accept him??
write or wrongParticipantImaof3-I thought about that, bc he sleeps so much. But he hasn’t had any spending money for a while, so how would he support such a habit?
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-he still hasn’t done anything to try to get into a dorm yeshiva. He’s still sleeping ALL day ’til evening, and then goes out at night. Last night he went out, and came home this am. If I try saying anything about school, even in the nice, helpful tones you recommended, he only says that he’s going to look into it. But he has no motivation, and if I try to push, he will get angry.
write or wrongParticipantWell, I thought we were taking a few steps forward. But now I see that we’re taking a few steps backward. He’s back to staying out all night.
Kind of hard to take these ups and downs…
Especially the downs…
write or wrongParticipantEzratHashem-point taken
write or wrongParticipantAnother suggestion, aside from JBFS would be to speak to the psychiatric department of a top notch hospital, and get a referral from them. Also,Dr David Pelcovitz, although a psychologist, would probably be able to recommend somebody good. Hatzlacha
write or wrongParticipantinterjection-So are you saying that I should keep trying to reach out to my son, even though he gets very angry? I think my son feels like you did, he even says that he hates talking. But I do keep asking him things, not to be controling, but bc I love him and I truly want to know what’s going on his life. But it’s like he’s inside a place with a huge wall around him, and he wants me to be on the other side of the wall. Every once in a while, I see a tiny crack, and I try to reach out to him. But those cracks are far and few betweeen. And any other time I try to talk to him, he just gets angry.
write or wrongParticipantaries2756-I have to tread very carefully. I already know that certain topics are taboo, and that if I am lucky enough to get a question answered, which is rare, I can’t expect that he’ll answer a second question. And if I ask him if he wants my help, for sure he will say no. Even when I mention something non chalantly about applying to a school with a dorm, he gets angry at me for mentioning it. I think, everything is going to have to come from him, or his chevra. It’s just that I was hoping he’d start a new school right after Hanukah, but he hasn’t even begun to look…
write or wrongParticipantImaofthree-he keeps saying that he will either go to a dorm, or find a job. But so far, he hasn’t done anything to make either of those things happen. I like the idea of finding someone who might need a helper, but so far, we haven’t found any leads.
aries2756-But what if your kids don’t open up bc their personality is to be private?
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