write or wrong

Oh Shreck!-thanks for your post, and your support. Glad to know that there are other husbands who help their wives…Pesach Sameach!

Imma613-what a nice chiddush…thank-you! May you and your family also be zoche to see yeshuos, and may we all merit to greet Mashiach and witness the geula b’karov! Pesach Sameach!

adams-BTW, I do agree with you on one thing. My agony over this is getting in the way….but it is getting in the way of my relationship with my other kids. While I may not cry and show my pain in front of my son who’s OTD, I do, however, cry in front of my other kids. I am working very hard on trying to stop bc it’s non productive and doesn’t allow me to give my other children the proper attention they deserve.

But maybe I just don’t understand your meaning, how is my agony over his agony preventing him from taking the next step with his life?

adams-you say my feelings are getting in the way of helping him. Which feelings, exactly, are you referring to?

I don’t really agree with your comments, bc the insinuation is that I could actually help him, if I had the right feelings, that it’s all up to me. I actually don’t think I can help him at all, no matter what my feelings are. He is distant, non communicative, angry and almost never home. He has pushed me and my husband out of his life. He hates the Haredim, and I am one of them. I am not forcing yiddishkeit on him, and in fact, never say anything to him about being mechalel Shabbos etc. That, I truly believe, is between him and Hashem. The only time it becomes an issue is if he is openly mechalel Shabbos in my home, around my other children. My agony is in seeing him destroy his life and his potential as a person, not as a religious Jew. Religion is no longer the main issue, and hasn’t been for some time. I have come to terms with the fact that he may never be religious again, but at this point, I’m just hoping he’ll mature and stabilize, and live a healthy, ‘normal’ life.

zahavasdad/aries2756-I know he doesn’t care what the community thinks. But since he is extremely sensitive to the idea of being embarrassed, I thought that he should be able to see that it goes both ways. But he can’t.

Imaofthree-thanks…and much nachas to you too!

aries2756-My husband didn’t ask, but he probably felt like my husband should ‘mind his business’.

Imaofthree-of course.

aries2756/fkelly-maybe you’re right, but on the surface, he seems to hate when I ask him anything. In fact, if he answers at all, it’s probably a lie. Maybe I shouldn’t always ask? One thing is for sure, I’d prefer he not answer me, than lie to my face. His lies are the only thing that can make me feel different about him…

Bracing for the upcoming week…and Pesach.

Imaof three-“He will feel connected to you because of your love and acceptance of him, not because you buy him cigarettes.”

This is just my point. He doesn’t feel my love for him for some reason. All the ways a child normally feels his parent’s love seem to be damaged, not bc I’m not giving the message, but bc his ‘receptors’ seem to be damaged. As much as it goes against my instincts, buying him cigarettes makes him feel that I accept him.

aries2756-thanks for taking the time to write all your sage advice. I do have a few comments, however.

“At the very worst scenario he may never come back, again “. Unfortunately, I don’t see this as the worst case scenario. It would be a bad scenario if he never came back again, but I’m pretty worried about the scenario of getting into drugs or serious depression (he may already be there, and if not, he’s pretty close).

“Where is the pain coming from?”. My pain is coming from watching my son give up on himself, and think so little of himself when I know how great he is! He is the baby eagle that fell into a den of ducklings. He may quack like a duck, and waddle like a duck, but my baby eagle can fly! Of course it has to do with his suffering, what do I care about me anymore? He told me that he’s stupid, ugly and boring. If it wasn’t so pitiful, I’d actually laugh at the absurdity of it. The most painful thing is, and I can’t shake it, is that I CAN’T HELP HIM. Not just specifically ‘me’, but I can’t even get him help from anyone else bc he won’t accept it (and that’s if I could even find someone professional, with the experience to help him). And yet, believe it or not, when I asked my son today if there’s anyone in this world that he trusts, he said yes…..me! But I challenged him, and told him that if that were true, why doesn’t he accept what I say? Why doesn’t he believe how great he is? And he said bc he doesn’t feel it. So I practically begged him to let me help him with this. I begged him to go talk to someone about this, but he just said that no one can help him. Yes, my family and I are suffering, but it has nothing to do with the neighbors! I don’t even notice they exist. My world is a blurr, somewhere in the background Pesach is looming, and my kids are calling me and asking me questions I don’t hear. I know I have to pick myself up, or I may end up drowning with my son. I have people to talk to, but I still have to face my pain alone. As much as I have to force myself to function in the ‘real’ world, I can’t help but relate to Lot’s wife, who turned around to look back to see if her child was behind her…

So, I took my son to the bus station, and was extra pained bc for some reason, he wouldn’t accept anything from me. Usually I give him snacks and stuff, but he refused everything except money and cigarettes. I even baked him a cake, which he wouldn’t take. So as I walked away with tears in my eyes, I couldn’t help but think that this beloved son is my korban. And just like Avraham Avinu, who was willing to sacrifice his son, he still had tears in his eyes during the Akeida, I felt entitled to my tears as I walked away, even though I wanted to just hug him and not let go…

“But Hashem, you gave Avraham Avinu back his son….won’t You… please…..give me back my son too?”

Of course, anyone posting here should be respectful to all the other posters. And truthfully, I think the mods should edit anything nasty or inappropriate. We should ‘speak’ to eachother with the same derech eretz we’d give, as if we were standing in the same room with eachother. And for the most part, I think we have. There were only a few posters that I remember who were accusatory and attacked unnecessarily.

Well, this Shabbos, we hardly saw my son at all. He didn’t come to any seuda, and seemed kind of angry when he was awake, otherwise he just slept. One more week, and then he’s on vacation. I just don’t know how we are going to manage…

crgo-wow! Thanks for your heartfelt post, I can relate to everything you said. (I do remember when you posted before). I’ve also agonized about making the right decision on where to live, but I believe that nisayonos are Heaven sent, and they will ‘find’ you wherever you live. I think I would also be more fearful of my kids going OTD in NY than in Israel, where at least here they live mostly with other Jews, in a place of kedusha, with perhaps a better chance of returning to their roots(?). While there may be more organizations that deal with OTD kids in NY, and perhaps more professional staff, there’s also much more temptation over there, and anyway, the shlichim are Heaven sent. So, I would rather stay here and daven, where I feel Hashem’s presence that much more, than return to NY and be tricked into thinking that my efforts will make the difference. I pray every day that Hashem will send the right shaliach to help bring my son back to Torah and mitzvos.

You are right that certain approaches may be too ‘American minded’, and wouldn’t work over here. There’s a different set of rules in Israel, spoken and unspoken. That’s all part of my frustration, since I still have my American mentality, although I’ve been here many years and have had to adapt to a different way of thinking.

Thanks for all the (undeserved) compliments, if only I could live up to the image you have of me, perhaps I wouldn’t feel so guilty. In any case, ‘from your words to my son’s ears’, may he find a place in his heart to welcome back his parents…and Hashem.

Imaofthree-yes, I did find someone to speak with, and also have a few friends that I confide in, Baruch Hashem. You are right, the anger and sadness is emotional energy better spent on positive things, including my other children. Now with Pesach coming, there’s no time to be upset!

EH-you are right. My ‘knee jerk’ reaction was purely emotional, and I know it will not help my child. However, it is from these emotions that I get the push to advocate srongly for my child. Unfortunately, I don’t think most hanhala are going to be receptive to concerns about ‘pushing my son over the brink”, as much as they are going to be concerned with the reputation of their yeshiva. Perhaps only a kiruv yeshiva would have this sensitivity. Anyway, we are still looking and still davening, and b’ezrat Hashem, he will go to the yeshiva that Hashem has chosen for him.

zahavasdad/a mamin-I thought about moving many times, but I’m not sure it would be any different in another religious community.

I am worried that me speaking about his could be seen as lashon hara about Israel, chas v’Shalom. But I think the communities here in Israel tend to be more homogenous, either pretty religious, or pretty secular. And unfortunately, both groups seem to have much fear and little understanding about the other. The secular are fearful of their kids becoming religious, and the religious are fearful of their kids becoming secular. It is for this reason there seems to be so many walls and little acceptance. As much as it hurts me that (some) people here are distant, I can understand it…

Syag Lchochma-I am so sorry for your suffering. You are right, the yetzer hara would like nothing more than to create safek in the hearts of all Jews, and to create machlokes and destroy our emunah. My husband always says that no one is perfect, so why do I expect perfection from the religious? The thing is, I do hold the religious to a higher standard, bc we should know better. Especially if the consequences of the mistake will hurt children, chas v’Shalom. But not everyone is on a path to improve their middos, and some people are just truly lacking…

Syag Lchochma-you made me laugh! So nice of you to invite me to your neighborhood. Perhaps there is more acceptance in NY than there is over here. In general, most religious neighborhoods do not react sympathetically to families going through this, there is much fear and I don’t think anyone really looks at a kid OTD with sympathy, knowing that they are suffering. I know that you are right about Hashem’s derech, and I will try to remember your words the next time I am confronted with prejudice or insensitivity.

mom12-I am really sad to hear about your other son quitting yeshiva, and I hope you can get him into a good place that will be mekarev him, and reach his heart.

From all the looks we’ve been getting from neighbors, from the really insensitive comments we’ve heard from people lately (friends too, believe it or not!), and from all the stress my other son is going through trying to get accepted into a yeshiva, when no one seems to be giving him a fair chance, I am close to going off the derech myself..

smc-thanks for your suggestion, but I am really losing hope..

a mamin-amen! I pray that there will be light at the end of this tunnel, and that I will be zoche to see it…

superme-thanks, but there are other organizations that deal more specifically with this issue. But I’ll just say that NY definitely has the upper hand with professionals experienced in working with kids/parents OTD. So far, the best guidance I’ve had has been from aries2756 (as well as other various posters) and Avi Fishoff. And I know NY has many more who work in this field! Here, it’s much more limited and unfortunately, not as professional (in my opinion).

zahavasdad-you are right. I guess the customs of Purim fit right in to their hashkafa!

EH-He’s always been the kind of kid who only does what he wants. Why do you think we are giving him everything he desires? If you ask him, he’ll tell you that we give him nothing, ’cause that’s how he feels. And the truth is, we are unfortunately, on a very tight budget, but not moreso with him than with our other kids.

I do daven for all the other kids who are OTD, and their parents. It’s a sad thing, but just off the top of my head, I can name at least 26 kids in our neighborhood, and I’m sure there are many more.. Thanks for reminding me that I have to be a mom to my other children…

Well….what can I say? What used to be my favorite holiday ever since we moved to Israel, is now a day for tapered smiles and worry. While my son was making all these plans to go to secular parties and places, I asked him why, when he has clearly rejected a Torah way of life and anything Rabbis say, he was celebrating Purim at all, which is d’Rabanan? Of course he gave the answer, which is the answer to almost any question I ask, “‘Cause I want”. I had to constantly remind myself what I heard from a friend, who told me that no matter what my son does/where he goes on Purim, I WILL be happy, bc it’s a chance to do a mitzvah completely l’shem Shamayim. I’m not acting happy bc I necessarily feel it, but only bc it’s what Hashem wants. So, I did my best, and am now trying to prepare for the weeks he will be home before Pesach…

What a nisayon, to be b’simcha while my son, with his chevra, give us nothing but grief…

First time caller-thank you so much for your inspirational story, and may Hashem continue to send you yeshuas!

I was told by a friend of mine, and I’ve heard it said in shiurim, that there is tremendous power on the day of Purim. While we are usually pretty busy with sending mishloach manos and the Purim seuda, the truth is, we should be spending a bulk of the day davening. In fact, I was told that beginning Chatzot Lyla Motsei Shabbos, for the next 6 hours, all 7 gates of Shamayim are open, and we should spend that time pouring our hearts out to Hashem.

I’m so happy that you were able to see success in the merit of all your tefillah. I hope and pray that we will all merit to see nissim and yeshuot this Purim, and that all of our lost children will find their way back to Torah, to mitsvos, and to us….

superme-interjection was only concerned for your safety. Even though your intentions were to daven for my son (which I appreciate!), by ‘just’ exchanging emails and names, it’s a kind of ‘connecting’ outside the coffee room…. 🙂