write or wrong

smc-Thanks for the story, point taken. I’m just wondering if it’s easier for an ‘opposite sex parent’ to give that sort of reaction to their child. It seems so much easier for me to react this way to my son than for my husband, but I will tell him this story. Funny thing is, when I ask my son who he trusts, he always says me. But that doesn’t stop him from hurting me. But mostly I am hurting bc I see him doing things that hurt himself. Thanks for your post and your well wishes. I’m surprised to see that there are such caring people who are still following this painful chapter of my life….I’m still hoping that it will have a happy ending.

a mamin-nice to hear from you! Still going through ups and downs. I can’t believe it’s been over a year since my original post, and my son still seems so far from coming back. But it’s more obvious to me that he first needs to heal his inner pain before he’d be able to come back. Right now the focus is completely on healing, and Baruch Hashem, he is seeing someone.

Every once in a while, I see a glimmer of hope by some comment he’ll make. But it’s not frequent. I only hope he continues to have the desire to help himself, and that he matures enough so that he can finally take off these rebellious ‘glasses’ and see how much we really love him…

Thanks for thinking of me!

a mamin-thanks for caring! Hashem should bless you and your family…

DaasYochid-but the yeshivas do discriminate, not only on behavior (which is probably the most understandable), but more specifically on academics. Not to mention, on lineage, ‘connections’ and probably a dozen other things that have nothing to do with the child’s potential to succeed.

I’m not sure there is a big difference between having different academic levels within the same yeshiva, or different level yeshivas?

Zahavasdad-explain the difference?

crisis of the week- You made at least two errors in judgement:

” I would not be suprised if your son follows in his brothers footsteps “. My OTD son went through various circumstances that led to his break with yiddishkeit, to the extent that if even one of those experiences hadn’t occured, he might not have gone OTD. My other son didn’t have any of those experiences, and in fact, had a healthier and more positive experience. Yet you equate the two by saying if A=B, then C=B. There is no logic to your mathematics.

“Her children are witnessing the ugly truth about yiddishkeit and how it deals with independent thinkers and their siblings”. The rejections by the yeshivas do not reveal the ‘ugliness of yiddishkeit’ bc there is no ugliness in yiddishkeit. (Don’t make the same incorrect assumption that OTD kids make!) There are only PEOPLE who err, and PEOPLE who get it right. What my kids see is the reality that NO ONE is perfect, not in the secular world and not in the religious world. And if some religious people are getting it wrong, we can only imagine what’s going on in the secular world. My husband has given every RY who said ‘no’,kaf zchus. On the contrary! My kids are getting to see yiddishkeit at its best via their father!! When a yeshiva says no, it’s “gam zeh l’tova”, and “Hakol ihiyeh b’seder”. And not every yeshiva has said no. The yeshivas that say no bc of an OTD sibling in my opinion, are not acting like Torah-true institutions at the core, but are more like ‘businesses’ being run under the guise of Torah.

zahvasdad-when you say, “This thread unfortunatly exposes flaws in the Charedi society”, what you really mean is that not all the Charedim are acting like they should, right? Why is that a ‘societal’ problem and not an individual one? The Charedim, unfortuately, are not together as a unit, so why are you judging them as such? When you do this, you make it sound like there’s this global problem, a kind of spiritual virus that has invaded the Charedi world, which is not true! We have wonderful friends. We know wonderful people, and the shiurim I go to are packed with women who think like me. I don’t see flaws in the Charedi society. I see that there are some people (everywhere!) who are misguided, and I would hate to think that this thread is causing you or others to think that the ‘Charedi world’ has a problem, chas v’Shalom. I am merely exposing my painful story, but it is certainly not the norm…

a mamin-not much to report. Things do ‘feel’ a little better, although nothing major has changed. I do think the people we met with can have a positive impact, it all depends on how well they follow up with my son. My husband and have taken a back seat, bc we’ve learned that anything that comes from us will be rejected by my son. So we keep davening, and hoping for the best..

Thanks for asking. How’s by you?

need seminary help-unfortunately, yes.

Ariellah-My focus is not on making him frummer right now. But I am hoping one day, b’ezrat Hashem, he’ll come back to the derech…

crisisoftheweek-I know you were being sarcastic, obviously it was not meant as a compliment.

I really hope you are wrong about my son following in his brother’s footsteps. Truthfully, all my kids see how much my son is suffering, and it’s not too appealing….

crisisoftheweek-it’s funny, but from your post, it sounds like you are a bit jaded against the Haredim. Yet you have the same judgemental attitude that this RY had. What makes you think that my son would complain about ‘problems’ at home? And do you think my son is a ticking time bomb, or are you only pointing fingers?

If I thought you or anyone else would use my experience as an opportunity to look down upon the Haredim, I would stop posting. As much as I am pained about my son not having been given a fair chance, I do not condemn the entire Haredi population. Nobody’s perfect, not in the Haredi world and not in the secular world. I only talk about these things here, so that perhaps, the ‘right’ people will read them. Then, maybe we can begin to make the corrections that need to be made, and prevent more yiddishe neshamos from going OTD…

interjection-I watched the video clip you posted. The problem is that the Rosh Yeshiva didn’t see it………..

Imaofthree-My son’s Rebbe from school recommended my son to this yeshiva, but he didn’t know about my ‘other’ son. Anyway the RY told him my son didn’t know the chomer…..

My husband could call the other Rav who studies with my son, but we’re so sensitive now to our kids getting a bad feeling from their Rebbes, that he doesn’t want to force anyone to take my son if he doesn’t want them.

a mamin-thanks…we need it.

hudi/Imaofthree-I hope you are right, that it is a good sign. Maybe we found someone who can help, me and my husband are meeting next week.

Spent the past 2 days trying to find a way to forgive myself for not picking up on the signs that my son was being terribly victimized in school by other kids. They broke him emotionally, as he tried so hard to fit in. He opened up to us this Shabbos, but basically feels that there is no hope for him. He sees himself as a freak, with no self esteem, not fitting in anywhere. I begged him to come to counseling, but he says he’s completely closed, and no one can reach him. Does anyone know of a good therapist for my child in Israel? I can’t find anyone with this type of expertise, who answers my calls, and who’d be willing to come to him? Is there no hope for my son, chas v’shalom?????

a mamin-Amen!

Imaofthree-I can only imagine the anguish you must have felt when your son moved out. But at least you helped him to secure an apartment, which is quite different from throwing a child out of the house. Yet, I would never judge any parent, this is an awful nisayon.

I agree that my son needs to work towards some profession. He is in school now, and I hope he will stay. He is showing some signs of ambition, but still too soon to tell…

My guess is that if there are Poskim who poskim that way, then they are probably from the old school of thought. I think the majority of Rabbonim today say to mekariv these kids so that they have a chance to return…

aries2756-I can see your point. Taken.

aries2756-I don’t agree with everything you wrote. First of all, I don’t ‘pity’ my son like you said, I do have compassion for his struggle and his pain. He is not controling me like you think. I’ve tried all the normal routes of giving him the message that I value him, appreciate him and respect him. He is not hearing those messages! If all the normal, typical ways don’t work, then I have to try something else. This is one of the reasons I contacted Avi. I agree completely with the way Avi sees these kids. Unfortunately, my husband doesn’t agree with the way Avi thinks we should deal with my son. And Avi’s approach is a bit extreme (or ‘twisted’, as he calls it), even if you do agree with his hashgafa.

I do know why my son is angry. He is angry at all the people who mistreated him…some more severely than others. And it just so happens, that they are all Haredim. So now, he made the incorrect conclusion that if ‘the sun gives me a burn, and the sun is yellow, then anything yellow gives me a burn’. My son now hates the Haredim and wants to be secular. As bad as I feel about his chevra pulling him in, he could only end up there if he wanted to be there. They didn’t force him to grow his hair long and break Shabbos. Some of them are shomer Shabbos, and most have short hair. Some even wear a kipa. Maybe in the very beginning, they did influence him to change his clothes, bc the ‘black and white’ was probably making them feel uncomfortable. But that was his window of opportunity to leave the Haredi world entirely.

I see him as very fragile right now. He doesn’t know where he belongs, and he’s trying on different ‘hats’, looking to see which one fits, which one feels good. He doesn’t spend enough time at home for me to help build his self esteem. There are no long conversations like in the past. Now the conversations consist of me asking some questions, with him barely answering any of them. He doesn’t initiate conversation, and lives inside his music. I have to create opportunities to ‘give’ to him, and some of them he rejects. I hate buying him cigarettes! But I don’t see him all week long, then he comes home and doesn’t come to the Shabbos table, doesn’t eat what I cook, and goes back to school. Where’s our connection? If I talk too much, he tunes me out. So I buy him cigarettes once in a while to show him that even though I don’t think it’s good for him, I care about what he thinks he needs. The bottom line is that he really needs an outside person to help him organize his thoughts and vent his pain, in order to let go of the hurt and make rational, healthy decisions for himself…

a mamin-forgot to thank you for your nice words and your blessings!

aries2756-I did, however, really like your point about stressing to my other kids the zechus in being Jewish etc, and how that’s the real factor that will strengthen them to resist the negative influences out there. Maybe I do need to ‘upgrade’ the simcha in my home these days…

aries2756-I don’t agree with you that the reason he is not feeling loved is bc he is ‘not a contributing member of the group’. ‘Not being productive’ may exacerbate the problem, but I don’t believe it is the cause. My son was damaged emotionally, to the extent that he cannot pick himself up. He doesn’t ‘give’ anything to anyone right now, and if that’s what has to happen for him to develop self esteem, then we’re in trouble. He has to heal his inner pain, and needs to re-connect with his inner strengths in order to see that he has the tools to help himself. Then he has the opportunity to become part of a group, and to give to others. The things you mentioned seem to be for a healthier person, someone who is in a slump, and needs a push. My son is not making good choices right now, bc he is doing it from a place of pain. Once the pain is healed, he would be in a much better position to rise up to the occasion, and do the things you mentioned.

truthsharer-my husband is not worrying about hashkafa. The philosophy behind TP requires certain behaviors from us that my husband found too difficult to do. In theory, however, my husband did agree with Avi’s perspective.

Imaofthree-we are looking into the idea of giving him his own room. And I agree with you, that I think time is an essential healer.

aries2756-expecting a child to be accountable and responsible when he’s absolutely not, may feel to the child that you don’t accept him for who he is. It is a fine line, and a very hard message to give over to someone who’s in pain and extremely sensitive. He may not be able to hear the message, “I accept you” when I am expecting certain behaviors from him (ie responsibility) that he can’t or won’t provide. And then if I were to compound the issue by making certain ‘rewards’ contingent on that behavior, he would end up never getting that reward, reinforcing his opinion that we actually hate him. I don’t think he would ‘rise up to the occasion’ and become responsible, bc it is too emotionally-laden an issue for him, especially at this weak moment of his life where he feels depressed, and is not able to tap into his own strengths to help himself.

As far as TP goes, we are actually not working with Avi bc my husband is not able to fully embrace TP hashgafa and do the things expected of him.

aries2756-when you said, “If we tug at the rope they only tug harder. If we slacken the rope they can wander off a bit and get scared enough to come home.”, you’re referring to specifically religious things, right? So, for example, I shouldn’t force Shabbos on him. But I should be able to expect my son to come home at night, or call if he’s going to be late, bc these are not religious issues, right?

But if I dare to enforce any of these expectations, it appears as though I don’t ‘accept’ him, and then we get the brunt of his anger since we are not allowed to ‘tell him what to do with his life’. So in the end, the suffering is magnified to issues beyond religion, and we are embarrassed not so much by his smoking on Shabbos and hippie-like appearance, but by his self centeredness, his apathy, his disrespect, as well as his apparent ‘control’ over his parents…

interjection/aries2756-I really appreciate your posts. I agree with everything interjection said, and that is the reason I don’t fight with my son. I accept who he is right now, knowing that he is hurt and going through a difficult time/transition. I buy him his jeans, his t-shirts and his cigarettes. I gave him a necklace, an earring and a bracelet. I openly walk with him in the neighborhood, and am happy to be with him. The bottom line is that, of course I love him no matter what. I am not forcing any mitzvos on him at all. My only request is that he not play his music at home out loud on Shabbos, which he’s been doing. And while I’d prefer he not hang out all night in front of our building/in our neighborhood, it would be easier to accept if he wasn’t also with girls. And I don’t think I am making a bigger deal of this than my kids. My daughters know some of these girls from school, and some of the boys were friends with my other boys. I shouldn’t worry? It’s not an issue of not ‘accepting’ my son. If I acted inappropriately or chutzpadik outside, wouldn’t my husband be appropriately embarrassed? Does my son get a complete heter on everything he does? I bombard this kid with love and affection, and go out of my way to give what I can, to take him where he wants to go. But does having parameters have to mean I don’t accept him? Nobody has a free reign to do anything they want without limit.

Yet, I hear what you are saying interjection, and I am worried about the disagreements between my son and my husband. I never yell at my son, but when my son is especially chutzpadik to my husband, then my husband may yell back in response. I am hoping, that if I can get my husband to the same level of acceptance as me, then perhaps there’s a chance that things will improve.

Aries2756, regarding what you said about my kids having seen other kids OTD in mixed crowds, I don’t think it has the same impact as them seeing their big brother doing something blatantly wrong. It challenges their mindset and makes it acceptable behavior. I don’t want them to have safek. And it’s one thing to think about about your brother hanging out with girls, and another to see it.

Imaofthree-you are right that there are worse tragedies in the Jewish world. But my life is a gehennom. Besides my son embarrassing us terribly on the Yom Tov by parading his ‘unorthodox’ behavior in front of our friends and neighbors, he is also doing it in front of our children, threatening to bring them all down. My husband has reached his limit with him, and the fighting/arguing between them was just too much for me this week. I feel sick from all the anger that pervades my home. And though I know other people may have things worse than me, I’m very afraid that things here could also get worse. I can’t tolerate my situation anymore, and am evaluating my options at this point…