write or wrong

AZOLIS- makes sense.

Wandering Teen-acceptance does seem to be the most important thing.

msseeker- you are right, thanks.

AZOLIS-those are good questions. Is there any research in this area?

apushatayid/zahavasdad – College or working are both acceptable options for me, but I guess my son is stuck, or unable to take the step for some reason. How should I force him to go to school or get a job? I gave him exactly those 3 options, Yeshiva, school/college or work? But if he doesn’t pick one of them, should I throw him out of the house?

As it stands now, he has agreed to finish this year if I give him my computer (without internet) to use when he comes home. Only problem is: his heart is not in the learning, he’s watching secular videos, and I feel completely helpless bc he’s calling all the shots. Also, he’s still with the chevra on Shabbos and in between computer time.

msseeker-in theory, I agree with you. But it’s very hard to follow through on it, especially bc he has agreed to finish Yeshiva this year, which was a big thing. Even though I don’t know what that really means exactly, bc he hasn’t really chosen a direction. We’re just buying time and putting off the inevitable confrontation for next year. You’re right, I am concernced for my other kids, and from your words, I will try to pay more attention to them and their perspective of things.

apushatayid-I’ll give you a perfect example. This week in Israel is Yom Ha-atzmaut. My charedi friend’s children want to go to the Park to see the fireworks. By itself, this may be no big deal. But there will be pritzut, music (which is forbidden now)etc etc. Should her kids go? How will they feel if she says no? How will they feel (in the long run) if she says yes?

In my opinion, she can lose either way. If she says no, they may feel they are losing out. After all, not everyone in their community is machmeer charedi, and her kids know some kids who are going. But if they do go, what will they see/hear? A bunch of other kids who are having fun, listening to music when they’re not supposed to, some girls not dressed properly. It puts safek and temptation into their observance, in my opinion. Unless a person is so insulated, both by having a large extended religious family, living in a community that is exactly like you, not to mention that they all have good self esteem, you have no guarantees that your kids will never be tempted to go off the derech. And even with those “guarantees”, it sometimes happens.

I suggested she make plans to get together with friends, if she can.

apushatayid-I’m not saying that computer games and videos are the primary source of enjoyment, but when they are used, even periodically, they are extremely potent. Even Rebbes have told me that they (generally) know which kids play video games/watch videos at home by the lack of interest these kids show in the classroom. A Rebbe typically doesn’t jump up and down, with flashing lights and bells like a Mario game. It’s not that the kid is living on Mario, it’s just that the Rebbe needs a different approach to grab the attention of the child. Would you go back to watching black and white TV now that there’s color? (even if you don’t watch a lot of TV?)

“A child who is used to being stimulated by using his or her brain will be perfectly happy to be asked a question at the shabbos table and be quite happy to get involved.”

I don’t agree. Some kids want a break from the 9 hour stimulation of their brains that they get in school, and don’t want to hear/talk any Torah when they are home. And then there are other kids who like to talk Torah while food shopping.

I agree that kids tend not to go off a derech they are happy with, however I’m sure other factors play a role as well. I just think that it is a huge and difficult task to entice children these days to see the truth and beauty of the Torah, and to care about that truth and beauty. (Especially bc these are not the values reflected in our society). We can model our love of yiddishkeit in our homes, but sometimes, it just isn’t enough.

soliek-thanks for sharing your story, it shows how having too much time on your hands, and being unsure of the future are a risky combination.

“So that should answer both your questions about Yeshiva and the computer. If he doesn’t feel like going, there’s not much you can do about it. But the alternative can’t be staying out all day and hanging out, or lounging around the house doing nothing. IF he doesn’t feel like going to yeshiva then he should have to get a job to keep him busy”

I agree with you 100%, but I can only encourage he consider learning a trade or working, if he doesn’t want to learn in Yeshiva. He’s really calling the shots. After reading your story, however, I’m more determined to get him involved in one of those 2 choices. I do think he has some emotional stuff to work out, but since he’s such a private person, I’m not sure he ever will confide in someone. Today I really tried to get him to consider talking to someone, and he blatantly refused. I’m just wondering if there are other kids like this who seem to go through the motions of Yeshiva, yet escape into the secular world of movies and Lady Gaga. What becomes of them? Of their Yiddishkeit?

yossiz- You are right, acceptance has to be genuine.

daniela-you make an interesting point, and it may be part of the problem. I think my son does feel that our lifestyle is a bit restrictive, and would prefer a less stringent lifestyle. He became lax with some of the mitzvot, saying he doesn’t care, sort of creating his own ‘halachos”. At the same time, he does believe in Hashem, and often times will tell me that when something goes awry when he’s with his ‘chevra’, he thinks it’s bc Hashem is listening to my tefillah. As far as being a second class Jew, I don’t think he feels that message from us, but I can’t control the messages he may be getting from the neighbors.

happytobehere-did your mashgiach know what you were going through? I know that my son doesn’t feel he can open up to his Mashgiach or Rosh Yeshiva. Unfortunately, they are not strong supports for my son.

zahavasdad-Perhaps it’s wrong, but I wouldn’t want them hanging out in my backyard. There are about 10 kids, loud, smoking, some off the derech. I don’t see it as harm reduction, in fact I see it as quite the opposite…causing potential harm to my other children, not to mention making myself a pariah in my own neighborhood.

Soliek-the only other thing he would want is money…in order to buy his own computer!

Is it possible he could come out of this without counseling? The more I think about it, the more I think that he will never open up to someone, and even if he goes back today to Yeshiva, I know we will be walking on eggshells until the year finishes.

Shavua Tov!

adams- There is no way my son is interested in reading or listening to any Torah shiur. And as far as girls go, I don’t think this is a major topic for him at this point, although he may be paying attention more to stuff like that. He’s still kind of shy and insecure.

Mikehall12382- Of course I’ve discussed it with him, but he’s not receptive to anything except hanging out with his friends. You make a good point about Yeshivas offering courses for kids who don’t see themselves continuing in Kollel. In retrospect, perhaps I should have put him in a more modern Yeshiva in the first place.

apushatayid- I don’t think it’s so much a failure in our system of chinuch as it is the inevitable consequence of a technologically advanced society. In a generation where almost everything is computerized, the one thing that can’t be is Shabbos. What can we do about that? The truth is, if it weren’t for Shabbos, I’m afraid the next generation would turn into a bunch of vegetable-like automatons. Shabbos gives us a chance to feel life instead of escaping from it, to connect with the spiritual instead of the electric. The problem is, no matter how beautiful the Shabbos table is, we can’t compete equally with the stimulation and excitement kids get from computer games and videos. A really good dvar Torah is no match unless the child is thrilled learning Torah to begin with.

Bless You- those are nice suggestions, but my son won’t even come to the Shabbos table.

Baal Boose- thanks, I liked your suggestions. But regarding #7, it’s very hard to get him to open up. He doesn’t dwell on emotional things, and if I tried to pry, he’d just end the conversation.

zahavasdad- What can we give our kids on Shabbos that will give them the same thrill, and capture their attention the same way as video games and movies? I put out deserts they like on the table, I try to play games with my kids, go with them to the park, visit friends sometimes, but it’s not always enough.

This Shabbos, my son was invited by his Yeshiva to a Shabbaton. And he went! That was last night, but today he was back to his routine of sleeping late, missing tefillah and not coming to the Shabbos table. Then he spent the whole day out with his chevra again. I don’t know what to make of all this.

On the one hand, he now says maybe he will go back to Yeshiva to finish, but on the other, he says he hates learning, and won’t continue to Yeshiva Gedola. I suggested he consider learning a trade instead, but he doesn’t feel he will fit in there either. I really think he should talk to someone, and my husband has someone in mind, but we can’t get my son to go. The therapist even agreed to come to the house, but how to arrange it so that my son will meet him, let alone talk to him?

As happy as I was to hear that he might go back to Yeshiva, I know it means a tug of war with him in the morning to get up and go on time. His heart is not in it, and I don’t know how to change that, or even if I’m the person who can. Should I bribe him to go to counseling?

Anybody have suggestions as to how to handle Shabbos, where my son will probably sleep through shacharis, miss seuda, get up around 12 and eat cornflakes, then leave until late in the day, or ’til the evening? Not to mention that tonight, if he comes to seuda, he will leave quickly afterwards until past midnight?

I wish you all a Good Shabbos, in case I cannot get back online later today.

EzratHashem-It’s hard not to care about what the community thinks, everyone tries to keep their kids away from these street boys, and now my son has become one of them! But I accept your point that we have to make him the priority, bc it would only validate his fears that we don’t care about him, if I was more worried about the neighbors.. I don’t know what else he might want, other than a computer, and it may be true that he has access to internet outside the house. Which is another reason I should try to keep him home

Soliek-you make a lot of good points, so it sounds like I still don’t have any (good) leverage with him. I’d have to reason with him during a good moment and try to get him to agree with complying with house rules on his own. At this point, the house rules for him are to speak to his parents respectfully,as we speak to him, and to get rid of (or perhaps seriously reduce) his anger. I told him that as a parent, I am obligated to know where all my children are, who they are with and when they will be home. To some extent, he is trying to comply.

Thank you for your compliments. I hope I live up to your words..

EzratHashem-At this point, it doesn’t matter what I want, either Yeshiva or job. He doesn’t want to do anything. He’s really just escaping, living a lazy life and I don’t know how to get him to do anything else.

RationalRose- I am concerned for my other children, and I guess if things don’t improve, I will have to consider all options. But it would be very difficult for me to send him out of the house. During one heated screaming match with him, where I said that if he wanted to live with us, certain house rules would have to be maintained, he actually told me that I’m obligated to take care of him until age 18.

Baalsechel, I wouldn’t agree to the internet if I give him a computer, but you’re right, I can’t guarrantee he will keep his word and stay away from the chevra.

adams- I’ll tell you the truth, I don’t really know what he is doing on the computer. He doesn’t have internet, but he has his MP4, a disc on key, and an external hard drive. He says he’s ‘trying’ to organize and erase some of the stuff on there. I may be naive when it comes to these things, my fear is that he gets things elsewhere, and then puts it on his MP4 somehow, but he practically swears that he’s really trying to get rid of some of the stuff. I’ve been a little lax with him bc I figured, without internet, he can’t really be accessing anything horrible. By the way, he still begs me everyday for the computer. In some way, this is perhaps my only leverage.

Soliek- “You can set guidelines, and expect him to adhere to those guidelines (be reasonable but firm with them) but love him even if he breaks those guidelines.” My question is how to enforce he adhere to guidelines?

EzratHashem – I’ll tell you, I think it was a “lifeline” that I could turn to the internet blog for support, and I’ll tell you why. I can’t disuss this with my friends for a number of reasons. One is fear, mine and theirs. My fear of their reaction, and their fear of me and my famiy as a result. People do look differently upon families with kids otd, and my community is no exception. It’s not right, but it’s the way it is. Perhaps it’s unconscious, or unintentional. When I started going through this, I was completely alone. I still feel alone, except when I go to this blog! I’m also still hoping my son will come back, and I don’t want them to think badly of my son. Maybe he’ll “come back” before anyone notices.

thehock-you are right, thank-you.

Zahavasdad-thanks, it makes sense.

Soliek-I am just trying to find possible reasons for why this may have happened, I don’t take any offense to anything you’ve said. Quite the opposite, I appreciate everyone’s advice and perspective.

You also make a lot of sense, I agree with you about the computer. It’s just that I’m kind of desperate for a solution.

I must tell ALL of you that I truly was falling apart, and still have my moments. But you are all heaven sent angels, and are helping more than you’ll ever realize. I told my husband that I don’t think I could have coped at all, even to the point of considering getting myself help if you hadn’t all reached out as you did. From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank all of you.

Soliek-How can I deal with his anger when it sems like everything makes him angry?

Bochur613- the only thing he’d want us to buy him is a computer, which would allow him to immerse himself in the garbage even more.

ir- you are right.

RationalRose-it’s not that my love is conditional, but my son knows that certain things would upset me, and perhaps he wouldn’t open up as a result. Also, should his leaving the house really be enforced if he doesn’t comply with house rules? I’m afraid he’ll end up living with a bunch of these street kids.

Thanks Yiddeshemeidele613

Sam2- At this point, he doesn’t want me to even mention anything religious, he’ll just change the subject. Telling him “I won’t let him hang out with his friends all day” is useless, bc I can’t control him. He is basically coming and going as he pleases. What consequence could I offer if he stays out all day?

Tikvayes- It sounds nice, but I can’t ‘lead him on his own path” when I, myself have no desire to go there. And I don’t think it’s a good path. It’s like hiking in the mountains, only he wants to walk on the edge of a cliff. I can’t encourage it, and truthfully, I want to pull him in. The hard part is that I have to somehow let him walk this path and pray he doesn’t fall.

My Brother/I love camp govoah/hock613-thanks for the recommendations.

Soliek/blabla-you’re right about therapy, but I’ve tried in the past to involve my son in counseling and he always refused. My husband and I went by ourselves. I think part of the reason this is happening to my son is bc it fits in with his personality. He has always been independent and controlling, and he is now expressing it in its fullest.

RSRH – I hear what you are saying, the only thing is this is not happening in a bubble. My other children are already challenging me as to why I don’t “punish” him if he doesn’t go to pray or learn. They also want to miss school, and sleep late. Of course I can’t tolerate loud music on Shabbos, but are you saying soft music would be okay?? The other thing is, he’s already playing his secular music in the house, usually with earphones, but sometimes he takes them out and my other kids hear it. He’ll even sing some of these songs around them. I tell him to please keep it to himself, but how can I enforce anything with him? It seems he’s in complete control. I have no leverage.

Shaul 1- Thanks, but he’s “too big”, and doesn’t want to go places anymore with his parents. He ONLY wants to be with his friends, or sleep.

Soliek- You said, “support him and love him, and he will eventually return”. Is it really true? The funny thing is, I’ve always thought that we gave him the message of loving him, loud and clear. I’ve gone over it in my mind, again and again, looking to see what I missed, what I didn’t give this child. If you ask all my other kids how they feel, they will probably tell you that HE always got the most attention, the most love etc. He is the first born, and we always seemed to have a good relationship, with good communication. I do have some ideas as to what might have caused the anger. One is an experience he had in school many years ago, when the kids were making fun of him. We addressed it a number of times with the principal, but apparently it continued for too long. It got to the point where I begged my son to consider switching schools, but he refused, saying even though some kids were making him miserable, he liked the Rebbes, and wanted to stay. The other issues are situational, and are not something we can change.

Adams- I don’t there is substance abuse, although I’m sure he’s smoking with this chevra.

Zahavasdad- I agree with you. I’ve alreaady accepted that he won’t go to Yeshiva gedola, and tried to get him to see that hanging out with this crowd is not going to give him a good future. These kids are basically street boys, and that’s what my son says he wants to be! Like BTGuy said, I try to be the voice of reason, asking him, “where do you want to be in 2 years? 5 years?”. His answer is, hanging out with his ‘friends’. ProudtobeaYid says it’s an immature age, and it’s true, bc he can’t see beyond today. Apparently, he’s been living a double life the past few years, reluctantly going to Yeshiva, praying etc, while escaping into secular music and videos. Now he feels connected to the secular world, and this ‘chevra’ reinforces that feeling. I wouldn’t complain if he ends up with a good job with a kipa on his head, but he’s already changed, in terms of his ‘walk’, his language, attitude etc, that it doesn’t look like that’s where he’s going.

I hope you’re right, ProudtobeaYid, but it just seems like a ‘compliment here and there’ will carry any weight in comparison to the pull of those street boys.

Thank-you A Mamin for your nice words.

Imaofthree-Thank-you for your advice. How did you cope with your daughter going otd?