write or wrong

zahavasdad-interesting statement. But I’m not sure my son loves Hashem. He believes in Hashem, but I think he blames Hashem as much as me for his suffering.

OhTeeDee-My goal right now is to help him from falling further, if that’s possible.

Just to comment on what interjection said about having done the research, and becoming a full believer. I think that if exlakewooder would ‘do the research’, you’d be a believer too. Most people who do the research become baalei teshuva. In fact, even the Christians believe in the truth of our Torah, the Jews are the hardest to convince! But anyone who honestly pursues truth, without worrying about what it may imply, will end up believing in the Torah. With that said, my son does believe in Hashem and the Torah, and contrary to what OhTeeDee said, I don’t think going off the derech is an intellectual endeavor…it’s almost always emotional.

HaRav Zan-It actually sounds like an interesting idea, bc my son is creative. I will look into it..thanks

LLL-perhaps you should read some of the earlier posts. I have integrated many of the suggestions here.

exlakewooder-I’m not going to debate nor try to prove anything. I will just say that I don’t know a single person who is religious bc it fills a void in their life, or bc they cannot cope without it. Maybe it’s comfortable for you to think so, however. And even if someone is religious bc they were brought up that way, in this generation, it doesn’t seem to be enough of a reason anymore to stay religious, generally speaking.

OhTeeDee-thanks for your comments. Even though guilt does pop up every once in a while, I know that a lot more goes into a child’s decision to leave the derech. It’s interesting that you mentioned, if G-d was provable, wouldn’t the 2 billion Christains, Hindus and Muslims become frum? I guess if they were given our mitzvos, they might. But most of them are believers in G-d! I’ll tell you the truth, I don’t think anyone is programmed not to believe, in fact I think the opposite is true. If someone loses that faith as they get older, I believe it is because of either negative associations with Yiddishkeit, conflicting messages, misinformation, or perhaps severe trauma. I don’t think my son has lost his belief. I think that bc of some negative experiences in school, and not feeling completely integrated within the community, the severe temptations around him have been difficult for him to withstand. You say a life filled with religion is not for everyone. Perhaps what you mean is all the mitsvos, which can be challenging at times. But I don’t know how I would have coped with all the difficulties in my life if I didn’t believe in Hashem and a master plan. How does anyone?

LLL- I don’t care if his family isn’t going to be ‘black and white’. My kids know that we are machmeer, and I’ve often told them that they will make their own decisions regarding this when they raise their own families, and I accept their decision. It’s not about controling them, and who they will become. It’s about giving them a solid foundation from which they will build their own future.

far east-I’m not sure I agree with everything you said. You said Israeli kids who go off are much more likely to get thrown out of their houses, but I’ve never heard or seen that. It’s true that the tolerance level may be less in Israel, as the religious communities tend to be stricter and more uniform. And the other issue is that, unfortunately, there is more division between the religious and non-religious, so you’re either in one category or the other, without too much acceptance of either one for the other one. So a religious family that has a boy who doesn’t conform to the rules/look of the community, poses a real problem.

EH-You are right, there needs to be a change. But unfortunately, when something like this happens, it only seems to create more division and hostility due to fear, between the religious and non religious. Some families are afraid that their kids could go off the derech if exposed to anything ‘unacceptable’. Other families just don’t want the influence of anything that goes outside their hashkafa. That’s why you choose to live in a particular commuity, based on your level of observance. The ‘black and white’ communities frown upon computer access/internet etc for our kids, and rightly so. So when one kid, who has left yeshiva brings his laptop to a park to see videos, it causes a big problem for all the families who don’t want their kids exposed to such stuff. I know families whose kids have never seen a gameboy, who don’t even play ball etc. And depending on who I speak to, I can either be considered fanatic, or modern. I think America is much more integrated.

LLL-obviously, you cannot threaten someone to conform to the standards of a community, but by setting himself apart like this, I’m afraid he has almost no fair chance of coming back, either. That’s my point. That’s why I’m upset. He is eliminating this option (in terms of returning to a black and white lifestyle) bc he is making a loud statement by rejecting the community norm, and they in turn, will reject him. What could ever make him want to come back after that? You may think he has bechira, but he is putting all his pennies in only one basket.

EH-besides the fact that I don’t feel like being the family korban to set things straight in our community, I don’t think it’s even a possibility. The only one who can eliminate sinat chinam is Hashem and mashiach.

daniela-Wearing a blue shirt in a black and white community will never lead to integration where I live. The black and white will reject him, and he will have no recourse but to connect deeper and deeper to this ‘chevra’ of street boys, G-d forbid.

I’m going to try to clarify a few points to everyone who wrote. First,I would think it’s obvious, although maybe it’s not, bc so many of you think that I feel that clothes are more important than my son. My son is more important than the color of his clothes, the neighbors, his profession, his religious connection and anything else. Zahavasdad-I know that jeans are not assur, but I think some of you, except far east, are missing the point. If you were in the army, would it be okay to tell your superior that instead of the green army uniform you are expected to wear, that you are wearing a red shirt with bluejeans instead, bc you don’t like green? Or that you want to wear the uniform of the parachuter when you’re in the marines? Where we live, in our community, in our schools, this is the dress code. My son wants to go against that norm, and whether I like it or not is not the point, whether it’s right or wrong is not the point. That would be a different conversation. I know that Hashem isn’t going to care about what color shirt my son wore. I am only pointing out that, IN OUR COMMUNITY, he is joining the dress code of the STREET KIDS which is a statement about who he is and how he sees himself. That’s what bothers me. It doesn’t mean I think his clothes are more important than him. That’s rediculous. If we lived in a mixed community, it wouldn’t stand out and have the same impact.

Ezrat Hashem-my identity is not on the line, like my son’s is, so I don’t care as much about what the neighbors think of me. I do worry a little about how it will affect my other kids, not bc I don’t care about my son, but bc the REALITY is, that whether or not it’s right or wrong, whether we like it or not, people will treat my kids differently, or make comments that might be hurtful.

You know, we don’t live in a perfect world. And mashiach hasn’t yet come. Sometimes, out of fear, people make strong separations based on seemingly insignificant things, like wearing a blue shirt. I remember a few years ago, my friend’s daughter didn’t get accepted into THE #1 Beis Yaacov, bc someone saw the father cleaning their yard wearing a blue shirt instead of a white one. It’s crazy, right? I agree with you all on this! I’m not condoning any of this meshugas, and I wish it weren’t so. But it’s the reality I live in, and I’m just trying to deal with it.

interjection/livelovelaugh-when I talked about how my son’s clothes will affect him in our community, I was not condoning it. I was merely stating the fact. Whether it’s write or wrong is not the point, and the truth is that most people do judge a ‘book by its cover’, and a red shirt with jeans is not the acceptable ‘cover’ in our community. I will love my son no matter what, bc he is my son. I don’t care more about his clothes than I do about him, I care about how he is going to feel when people stare at him, or gossip behind his back. I care that once a person sees you a certain way, it’s very hard to change that perception. I care that he is making himself an outcast in his community, and that it will only cause him further animosity to anything Jewish. If he is struggling emotionally now, I’m afraid of the struggle he will create for himself should he fall deeper into this. And yes, I am afraid he might leave the derech of Torah, with all the consequences it entails, both in olam hazeh and olam haba.

LLL-why does it sound so horrible that there are restrictions? Doesn’t the Torah have restrictions? Don’t we have to stop at red lights and stop signs? Who said anything about not letting him go to college, or forcing him to learn all day? My concern is that he shouldn’t become a street boy, smoking, and anything else his chevra offers him, which could be drugs, alcohol and worse. I hear a lot of anger in your words, and assume you are probably still struggling with the negative experiences you may have had. Baruch Hashem, we have shalom bayis in our home. I am sorry for your negative experiences, I know that life can be gehennom for everyone involved if there is no peace in the home. Hopefully, you know that the negativity you felt on Shabbos had only to do with the conflict between your parents and not Shabbos itself. It’s unfortunate that you weren’t able to feel the peace and simcha connected to Shabbos, and had such a negative association with it. But hopefully now that you are older, you will be able to see things more correctly. Thanks for your comments

EH- you seem to have such insight regarding this topic. In your opinion, what factors weigh the heaviest in influencing an OTD child to come back? Meaning, kids that do come back, what helped them the most to actually come back?

I liked your line about how kids are bashert to us as well as our spouses.

I really have to remember that my son going to yeshiva every day is no indication of ‘where he is’ right now. He just reminded me that he’s not planning to continue in yeshiva next year, and wants to change his ‘look’ from black and white to wearing colored shirts. I don’t know why it bothers me so much, but it does. A part of me feels like I can’t accept it. Do I have to accept it? Despite the fact that I live in a ‘black and white’ community, I’m more afraid of how it will affect my other kids. I feel like things are getting worse, his demeanor is different, he’s distant and tough. I know that in and of itself, a colored shirt is not a big deal. But the underlying meaning behind wearing it in our community is what bothers me. It’s a rejection of our lifestyle, and it sets himself apart. I don’t know how I can come across as being ‘accepting’, when I am not happy about any of his changes.

BRAINFREEZE- thanks for your input, however I don’t think my son is bipolar. My son’s feeling that his RY hates him is based on negative interactions that have taken place, and not on paranoia. I also don’t think that bipolar is “borne out of the urge to rebel”. From my uderstanding, it is due to a chemical imbalance, and that is why the only effective treatment is medication. That said, it is possible that my son may be struggling with feeling depressed at times. And I would be thrilled if he would consider talking to someone for a multiple of reasons. However, I don’t think the solution is a psychiatrist/medication.

Sam2-it’s good advice, but I don’t have the opportunty to do it. On Friday, after he comes home from yeshiva, he sleeps all day until my husband comes home from maariv. Then maybe he eats something quickly, then runs out the door to be with his ‘chevra’. On Shabbos morning, it’s the same thing. He doesn’t come to the Shabbos table, instead he lies in bed until we are finished with our morning seuda, then grabs a bowl of cornflakes and bolts out of the house. He stays out the whole day, maybe popping in for a quick snack, then leaves again ’til late at night. It’s almost like he can’t tolerate the kedusha of Shabbos, and certainly, he doesn’t want to be with his family. I don’t feel like there are any ‘good’ days.

Maybe something good came out of the meeting with the RY, bc they gave my son a new chavrusa and his spirits seem to be picking up.

I agree with zahavasdad that many times, the school Rebbes don’t have the skills necessary to teach. They may know a lot of Torah, but that doesn’t guarantee that they know how to give it over to kids, or that they know how to encourage a desire to learn/love of learning (which I think is the most important thing!). I’ve heard so many stories from friends where the Rebbes can’t control the class, and often resort to very strict/questionable methods. In all fairness to some of these Rebbes, some of the kids today are very difficult, with ADHD running rampant, and you really need very experienced mechanichim who are well equipped to deal with these kids, and not Rebbes who are emotionally frail or the perfectionist type.

YG1- I don’t think I ever mentioned that I wish my son would love his school. On the contrary, I used to beg my son to consider switching yeshivas, when I saw years ago how some of the kids tormented him. But even though I agree with all of you who have said that he has to get into something productive, or he should go to a different yeshiva, unfortunately it is all a moot point. First of all, at 16 years old, he is basically calling the shots on if and where he goes. I can’t force or convince him at this point to do anything he doesn’t want to do. Secondly, he is so hurt inside from his yeshiva (and I can’t seem to repair THAT particular damage), that he’s turned off to considering going to another yeshiva at this point. He’ll either stay where he is for now and continue to try to get a feeling of acceptance, or he’ll quit entirely. I just have to pray that this experience didn’t damage him so much that he won’t, chas v’shalom, be unsuccessful in his life from lack of self esteem.

Ya know, I’m starting to really blame the whole system. What are we doing to our children? This morning, my son said he wants to really try to give yeshiva his last best shot. He didn’t go out last night with the chevra, he went to bed early, and left for school this morning on time (without me prodding him at all!). Now, he comes home telling me that his RY sent him home bc he didn’t know the material on his test, and he can’t come back without his father. I asked my son what happened? He said, he had no chavrusa last week, so he didn’t know the material (this has been a problem every so often , that he doesn’t have a chavrusa bc of the odd # of kids in the class, so periodically he’s left without one. Can such a crazy thing really happen??). We discussed it with his RY in the past, and they usually solve it. My son cried that he feels his RY wants him to fail and quit yeshiva so they don’t have to try to find him a yeshiva for next year. He said nobody cares about him, not his RY and not Hashem! He cried that this is one of the reasons that he can’t go to yeshiva next year, bc he can’t learn, he’s not a good student and can’t remember anything. This is a kid, who has an INCREDIBLE memory, whose Rebbes used to call us on the phone telling us that they are so impressed with his mind, that he’s sharp and has an uncanny ability to understand difficult concepts with ease, that we will see nachas from him. And he sees himself as a failure! I am crying as I write this bc I don’t know how to help him. It doesn’t seem to matter to him how much I believe in him, he’s stuck on how his RY sees him. And he’s convinced that his RY hates him.

bladiblah-thanks so much for the info, I just checked out their website. Looks good. I feel like I’m on a roller coaster, sometimes going up, and sometimes feeling like I’m going to crash. Not sure I can handle this..

Wandering Teen- I wouldn’t be so bold as to think that I have all the answers. However, there is a Jewish answer to every question. Do you have a Rabbi that you can go to? I remember many years ago, I tried to help someone who was ‘searching’, so I went with them to an Arachim Seminar. The staff did not shy away from any question! You must find someone with whom you will be comfortable talking to about your doubts.

Just as an addendum, after the Arachim seminar, this person decided to continue learning about Judaism. However, they did this by taking a class on Judaism taught at a Christain University. Make sure you go to the right sources.

Amen to Syag Lchochma!

daniela, Syag Lchochma, msseeker, Imaofthree, Interjection, far east and everybody else from all the previous pages. You are all such sensitive and understanding people. If only the whole world (including my neighbors) were like all of you. Syag Lchochma and daniela are right, you all offer so much chizuk and insight, and everything comes from the heart. May we all be zocheh to have nachas from all of our children. And Imaofthree, may your daughter find her way back to Torah and mitsvos.

Thank you Imaofthree!

Interjection-I do appreciate your advice, even though you don’t know me. I really hear what you are saying, and it’s very similar with my son. By nature, he is a controling person, and yet I think most teens go through thinking similar to yours anyway. A major commitment in lifestyle, as the Torah demands, requires that a person completely accept it ,but from his own will and not from his parents’ chinuch. I will try very hard to remember your words bc I think they are true.

Imaofthree- should I ignore it completely? If I ignore it, will it go away? I guess I have no choice, bc to focus on it would make things worse, from what you and everyone else are saying.

Fashionablee-We have spoken with a Rav and a therapist, but I have to tell you that it really helps to get advice from people who give their pespective, either having gone through it, or bc they work with families with this problem. Hearing it here helps to reinforce what I have to do, gives me ideas, and helps to keep my focus. It’s also helping me to see my son’s point of view.

How will I ever repay the kindeness you all have shown me?

Imaofthree-but that’s just it. The small things do mean something (in retrospect, now you can see that the short socks were a sign of things to come). It means that bigger things are coming! If it just stays at music and videos and doesn’t go further, then you’re right, what’s the big deal. But does it ever just stay where it is? I’m petrified that bc he’s also pulled back on the learning and davening, that this secular influence is taking over his life, chas v’shalom.

zahavasdad- sounds right, but I’m not sure which mitsvos he really wants to do at this point.

interjection-I agree with you that the more he thinks we want him to do something, the more he won’t want to do it. But I’m just wondering how to get a kid to want, or like to daven? Even if it doesn’t come from us, which seems inevitable at this point, where does it come from?

Sam2-good advice.

daniela-I’m not sure I understand what you mean. If it’s not rebellion, what is it exactly?

I see it as rebellion bc he is saying “I don’t want to be Haredi”, and sometimes he says he doesn’t want to be religious. Initially he rejected a bunch of things, ie tefillah, tsitsit, mitsvos, learning, etc but I’m hoping, he’ll find his own middle ground. My concern, and I’ve told him this, is that in order to really make a choice, you have to expose yourself to both sides, not just the chevra/videos/music he’s listening to. But also learning Torah, Yeshiva etc. But he’s still struggling.

The friend told us that he didn’t think my son wants to really be with that chevra, but my son very much likes the music, and now seems to be addicted to it. He has no desire to break away from the music, and has said that even if he decides to stay religious, he still wants to see videos and listen to this music.