write or wrong

thethinker3-just as an aside, I’m reminded of shevet Levi when the Jews were in Mitzrayim. They were the only tribe to maintain their sanctity and Jewish identity. This is attributed to the fact that they didn’t take on the ways of the Mitzrim ie wear the clothes of the Mitzrim (jeans?). So, there is something to be said about not mingling with the predominating culture..

zahavasdad- I would never imply that someone not haredi is a rasha. You are right about making the distinction between hashkafa and halacha. Yet even though I might be able to close my eyes/ears to the music and movies he’s watching, I don’t think I could get used to the idea of jeans. I was thinking about this lately, wondering why it bothers me so much, and I realized that it’s not just the haredi world where jeans are unacceptable. There are well known companies/places where jeans are not part of the dress code and are considered inappropriate attire. Yet no one is making a fuss about it. And depending upon your position in a particular work situation, the higher the status, the more inappropriate jeans becomes. The connotation is a sloppy and unprofessional look. I’m sure the president of IBM doesn’t wear jeans. And if he is only representing IBM, look who WE represent!!

Bilbo-of course I want my son to be happy, but does that mean there shouldn’t be any rules? I am trying ‘non religious’ benign ways of reaching out to him, and I hope you are right, that some of this rebelliousness is adolescent related.

Thanks anIsraeliYid.

Sam2-I always appreciate suggestions..keep them coming. You never know which one will click..

Sam2-thanks for the suggestion, I will mention it to him.

yitzyshalom-I understand what you’re saying, however the Torah tells us not to follow the ways of the goyim, to put fences around our mitzvos, and to listen to the Rabbonim. What Rav would give a heter to go to a bar? Or watch filth? Or to steal?? I’m sorry to say, that a goyishe version of judaism, or an Americanized version may be the only ‘palatable’ judaism for some people, but it is a modified/distorted version of the original. Perhaps it’s better than nothing at all, but I wouldn’t raise my children to think this is judaism. People who put themselves at risk hanging out in bars, yet calling themselves religious, are setting themselves up for failure! After a few drinks, who knows what could happen? They are mingling with goyim, and people who give in to immorality and indecency. A Torah Jew doesn’t belong in a place like that, regardless of whether they’re haredi or not. You have to ask yourself, what’s the reason for the Torah in the first place? Isn’t it to set aside a nation of people who will be different from the rest, a people who will live a life of morality and decency, ethics, and honesty etc amidst a world filled with just the opposite? We are not supposed be like the rest of the world, so why should we blend right in? Yet it sounds like you believe we should ‘do what the Romans do’ bc it’s fun, and our kids want fun too. I agree with some of your points, about perhaps the haredim focusing on certain external things as THE measure of observance, when a person who doesn’t want to conform, could be just as machmeer in their mitzvos, and as close to Hashem. But in my opinion, in general, it is the haredi way that is the closest to getting it right…

mom12-I’ve said all the things you mentioned. He knows that I can’t ‘not care’ about where he is, or what he’s doing, or just ‘leave him alone’. When I ask him what’s bothering him, he tells me point blank, that he hates the haredim. He feels betrayed by the kids who tortured him in yeshiva, and the RY who ‘never believed’ in him. The RY is very srict and punitive, and unfortunately, he lost a lot of yeshiva bachurim bc of it. There are only a half dozen boys left in my son’s class from a class of 28 kids. My son also blames me and my husband for being haredi and putting him in a haredi school. Reasoning doesn’t work with him, as he sees all these things that happened to him as a ‘haredi’ issue.

yitzyshalom-I appreciate your comments, and agree with you to a certain extent, and about looking for a modern yeshiva. However, I don’t think that haredi judaism is a cult or medieval. Can a person really be completely immersed in secular music/videos and go to BARS, yet be a religious Jew 100% ?? Maybe (MAYBE) on the outside (ie mitzvos), but not on the inside. I don’t believe it for a second! I remember when I lived in the States, and I lived as a haredi Jew. I lived in a haredi neighborhood, and was completely immersed in my haredi life. Then I moved to Israel, to another haredi neighborhood. I didn’t feel any difference…until I came back to NY. Then I felt a HUGE difference. How could it be, I wondered? I wasn’t any different. That’s what I thought. But I WAS different, bc even subtle changes like living in Eretz Hakodesh can have an influence that we don’t see. I’m positive that immoral movies and music with goyishe ideology also has its influence. You may not see it. Or some people may think they’re ‘above it’. But it’s there nonetheless. If my son gives in to all these goyishe things, I can only hope he’ll be a shomer shabbos Jew. I wouldn’t expect him to be haredi. And that would be okay! But the problem is, it’s even hard to stay a shomer shabbos Jew when all the images, themes and philosophy he’s been feeding himself are antithetical to everything Torahdik, and especially being a shomer shabbos Jew.

mom12-I love your mother’s advice! You seem to be pretty clear in your approach to your son, which is good. And it seems to have ‘rubbed off’ on him, since he does have some ambition and a goal. I’m not sure I’m always so consistent with my son. But from what you’ve said, and some of the other posts, it appears that I really do have to be strong enough to hold back, and give my son time, space and acceptance so that hopefully he’ll be able to find his way back. I pray that we will both see success!

Have a Good Shabbos…

mom12- so I just have to pretend that everything is okay, just smile and play ‘stupid’? Not sure I’d be able to get the suspicion out of my ‘smile’..

BTGuy-good to know that many settle down with time..

mom12-Everything you said is true, I can’t see me ever disowning my child, chas v’shalom. I just pray he will get himself to a ‘good’ place. Thank-you so much for the info, I will look into it.

mom12-do they have a website?

mom12-I agree with your plan, and hopefully your son will gain a love of learning, which I think is key. Keep posting on your progress.

Did you find out the name of that Rabbi in Israel?

daniela-my son isn’t doing anything yet overtly, except by hanging out with this fringe group of kids on Shabbos. I’m not happy with his language/songs he sings in the house, but he is trying to be more respectful. I try to talk to my son about safety issues and health, and I can only hope that he doesn’t get into any kind of real trouble, chas’v’shalom. The real issue affecting my other kids right now is essentially my fault. I am so preoccupied with my son that I have less patience for them, and am probably giving him much more attention. I have to work on this. I’m trying to keep my other kids busy, so they don’t have so much interaction with my son, and hopefully they won’t be adversely affected, B’ezrat Hashem

Thanks mom12.

Wishing everyone a Good Shabbos…..

MDG-I’ve told him that movies aren’t real life and that he’s better off watching cartoons so that he wouldn’t make the mistake of thinking it’s real. But you can’t tell a teenager anything. They think they know better.

I hope I’ll pass the test.

2scents-I never thought you were mocking me, I appreciate your comments. Give more!

OhTeeDee-I guess depending upon your hashkafa, seeing secular movies may be okay. But when you grow up without the secular influence, then it makes it harder to fit in to the secular world. By spending hours on the computer watching these movies, it is helping to prepare him for living that kind of life. He is ‘educating’ himself to be secular, and that’s why I don’t want my kids to see them. I can already see the changes, the language, expressions, the hashkafa. But you are right, there are worse things outside that are readily available. It’s just that movies stay with you forever, just like songs. Once it’s in your head, you can never get it out. It’s like when Adam and Chava tasted the forbidden fruit, the consequences were irreversible. I was hoping my son would not put himself into this situation, as now his nisayonos will be more difficult to pass. But I hope as he matures, he will come back to his religion.

MDG-If Rabbi Kelleman is correct, and I assume that he is, then perhaps the positive emotions between my son and my husband should also surface, as there were many. Tefillah was the negative emotion that probably stayed wih my son. But there were happy times too. My husband was advised to do small things for my son, without too much dialogue at this point. Give small items my son enjoys, or pick up some things for him on the way home, in order to show his love in a non-threatening way. I’m hoping it will help to restore the trust, like you said. Thanks for your input.

interjection-I agree with you completely.

daniela-he hasn’t done those things yet, but they are in the planning…with an earring! He’s said that he plans to get jeans, change his style of clothes, his hair cut etc. He is just trying to finish the year in yeshiva, and I am dreading that time. Every day he reminds me that he is not going next year to yeshiva, what he will do instead, I don’t know yet and neither does he. Even now as he tries to ‘finish the year’, he goes late, and doesn’t care about doing well on any of his tests. I’m trying to get him to make some kind of plan, learn a trade if not Torah, go to college. He knows that I won’t accept sleeping all day ’til evening, and then staying out all night with the chevra. But he may just challenge me and do exactly that to see if I will throw him out of the house. G-d help me.

zahavasdad-is the blank supposed to be Hashem? I think it takes a lot of maturity to make that kind of distinction, and teenagers don’t have it yet.

mom12-it would be a great idea to spend some positive time together, but he never seems interested. He doesn’t have a job bc he is trying to finish his last year in Yeshiva. He told me that he is only doing this to ‘make me happy’, since he doesn’t plan to continue next year, and isn’t religious anymore. My husband keeps hoping that something will ‘click’, and he’ll get back on track. But he has no motivation and seems to be only going through the motions. I spoke to him about learning a trade or going to college, but he doesn’t feel he will ‘fit in’, and would probably just spend his days sleeping late, and hanging out with his chevra until late hours. When he comes home from Yeshiva, he uses the computer and doesn’t really want to do anything else. I even have to beg him to eat. It’s his escape.

He tries to stay away from the chevra during the week, but on Shabbos, he’s a different kid and he spends all his time with these street boys. He’s changing right before my eyes, and after every Shabbos, it’s a little bit worse. His language is terrible, and he is very chutzpadik to my husband.

2scents-I do fully love my son, with all my heart. But I do not accept his choice. Does that mean I don’t accept him? I don’t know, I hope not. I accept that he is having difficulties right now, so I don’t hold him to the same standards as my other children. I can’t imagine ever throwing my son out of his house. That’s what I’ve always felt. But the past few days, he’s been so difficult, cursing and exposing my kids to the secular movies he’s watching on the computer, that I don’t know what to do. I’ve told him to keep his language kosher, and the movies to himself. So he said, “and if I don’t, what are you going to do, throw me out?” I said “I don’t know what I’m going to do, and I hope you don’t put me in this position”. He is also fighting a great deal with my husband, and I don’t know for how long I can be the buffer.

Like you mentioned, I do try to make his favorite cakes, have his clothes neatly prepared, and try to give him the message that I love him and am happy to take care of him. I just hope he hears that message.

mom12-I know what you mean. My son does the same, saying he’ll come in 10 minutes and then coming many hours later. I can only imagine how painful it is to wake up and see your son hasn’t come home yet. I feel that I am not so far away from you, and don’t know if I will be able to handle much more. I also read Tehillim every day, I hope it will help both of us

mom12 and thehock- thanks for your perceptive input.

mom12-please give me more advice. What has helped you and what hasn’t. It’s so hard to watch him go out the door, not knowing where he is or when he’s coming home. Friday night, I asked him to please try to be home before midnight, but he wasn’t home until 2am. The anguish is so hard to bear. I can’t sleep, I watch the clock, and look out the window, hoping I’ll see him coming home. I do listen to him when he speaks, it’s just that he’s not home that much, and when he is,he’s on the computer.

How are things with your son now? I’m so sorry, you must also be suffering…

thehock-I agree with you that this thread has turned to one of ‘blame the parents’. There seems to be so much anger toward parents when kids decide to go OTD. The unfortunate thing is, that OTD kids assume that bc something negative happened to them in school, or in their life, religion is to blame. And the parents are ultimately responsible bc they put them into this ‘religious situation’ in the first place. However, they don’t realize, that if they had grown up secular, there are also negative experiences in school and in life. It has nothing to do with being religious. exlakewooder is right on ONE point. If I think that my belief system is based on fact (and I do), then it will be nearly impossible for me to make peace with my son’s choice.

I can’t respond right now to all the OTD members who want to vent their anger at me, perhaps thehock or some others can…

daniela-the RY and the community have not made any suggestions to us, and I would welcome some support on their part since they know us, and my son.

I attribute most of his ‘insensitive’ behavior to a lack of maturity, although there is a bit of chutzpah, as with most teens these days. However, I agree with you that good middos and derech eretz are most important. We are working on that.

As far as school goes, he was the victim of emotional and verbal abuse, which can leave a scar just like physical abuse. And yes, he was an excellent kid, as all the Rebbes always told us. It’s just that there was a terrible oversight on their part. And my son did tell us, and we went to the school to address it.

When I said I wouldn’t complain if he threw out a jacket I bought him, I meant that I’d prefer he’d throw out clothes than yiddishkeit.

Good Shabbos and Chag Sameach…

OhTeeDee-it’s not as simple as you make it. It’s not a matter of leaving the status and labels. Judaism is not something superficial, external or ‘on the surface’ like a jacket, that you can take off if you’re too hot, or a tattoo that you can remove. It is an intrinsic identity we are born with and die with. Where we differ is in the belief of how a Jew should live. The Torah tells us we have to go by the mitzvos.

You used the terminology, ‘non-practicing’. Doesn’t that mean a Jew who stopped practicing? There must have been something in the first place to practice if a person chose to stop doing it. Go back to Har Sinai (perfect timing) and see that the Jews were all once living as Jews. Anything else, is a diversion from that truth.

And how can you be considered a ‘good’ person who’s not practicing unless you have a definition of what’s good? Who defines what’s good? Ask 1000 different people, and you will get 1000 different answers.

If my son were throwing out a jacket I bought him, I wouldn’t complain. But I see it as him leaving “who he is” for something he thinks he wants to be. A person may leave the mitzvot, but they cannot break the covenant we have with Hashem. I believe the Torah is emes, and to see my son seek a life of sheker, hurts me terribly.

Daniela-I don’t think he’d be thanking me, bc it’s only after having gone through this negative experience in his yeshiva, can he say that I shouldn’t have put him there. If I had put him somewhere else, he may have had complaints about that yeshiva too (although not as harsh). I probably couldn’t have ‘won’ either way.

I don’t know how I am going to manage this Shabbos and Shavuos. He’s already preparing me that he won’t be home,bc he’s going to be with his ‘friends’. I’m trying to get him to set limits, but he won’t. I’m really dreading this weekend…

OhTeeDee/LLL/EH-thanks for your advice. Some of the suggestions make a lot of sense, even though they are hard to do.

EH-About Shabbos. Mostly, he just doesn’t want to be home, but we don’t like that he’s out all day/night with his chevra, and we usually let him know this. What I meant was, should we just keep quiet and let him go without saying anything? Everything we do feels like pressure to him and I don’t want to add to his pressure. Yet, staying out ’til after 1am and missing the seudas (and of course, all the tefillas) bothers us terribly. Not knowing where he is all day and night just ruins any peace I could possibly feel on Shabbos. And now, this weekend is also Shavous. I just don’t know how I’ll be able to handle it.

I do try to set limits with some of the melachas on Shabbos, but he really doesn’t care too much, and is becoming more lax, even in front of his siblings, which bothers me. If I say anything, he just doesn’t ‘hear’ me, or he’ll get angry.

LLL_where was your Rebbe when all that was happening to you? It’s true that kids can be cruel, religious or not. It just seems to be a stage they go through on their way to maturity. I feel terrible to hear how they tortured you like that, kids just don’t know how much pain they can cause someone. It must be so hard to heal from something like that. What helped you?

EH-you sound so knowledgeable. How is it that you seem to know the right approach to take? Do you know kids who went through verbal bullying/emotional abuse and came back to the derech? I actually wrote down your words so I can remember them the next time I start to despair again, which is usually a few times a day, or more.

The other thing that came up in our conversation was being with his chevra on Shabbos. He said that he can’t stand everone putting restrictions on him, including the RY, the Rebbes, and me. He wants to be able to be with who he wants on Shabbos without any questions or time limits. He says that he’s doing everything the RY wants him to do, even though he doesn’t want to do any of it. In light of this, do you think I should back down and leave him alone to do what he wants on Shabbos?