write or wrong

yishtabach shemo-I agree with what you said, that even if my son is in any yeshiva where the Rebbes can be positive role models for him, it could be a good influence on him, and could hopefully undo the damage he went through. I would be open to suggestions, if you know of any places in Israel..

Sam2-it isn’t just my opinion, like you say. Even read some of the other posts. Maybe not in a mixed community, but certainly in a homogenous community where everyone wears the same thing: To change the dress code means a rejection of the lifestyle of that community. The proof of this is that my son left the derech of Torah!

mom12-the letter might be a good idea, bc he’s not too happy to talk to anyone. But on occasion, we do have those kinds of conversaions, although they don’t seem to make any dent. Hopefully your son will hear you, and cancel the trip. Today, one of the bachurim (finally!) called from his old yeshiva, and he told my son where everyone got accepted for next year. He even told my son that if he wants, the RY will still try to get him in to a good yeshiva. But my son told him no, without any remorse or regret…

pcoz-we’ve already promised him things we know he would want, and it doesn’t move him. Even if we were matzliach in coercing him, what would be the point? He’d just be going through the motions. That was part of our mistake the past few years. We were offering all kinds of incentives in order for him to go to yeshiva on time, pray on time. So he ‘went through the motions’, feeling bribed into it, hating it all the way. We never got to the core problem. That’s why I think counseling is the more important way to go

pcoz-reward him with what for what?

mom12-the yeshiva that offers the dorming is not as ‘open’ as the other yeshiva, and the kids are all in black and white. I think they learn til around 3 or 4pm. If my son could handle it, I would prefer that one. The second yeshiva ‘learns’ until about between 12pm and 3pm, depending on the day, but it’s almost no limudei kodesh. The menahel explained that kids like this have a bad association about learning gemara and that’s why it’s minimal. But even though they were very warm and welcoming, it just seems like it’s nothing substantial. You can come late, leave early, learn, not learn..anything goes. Just what my son wants right now. Oh, and you can wear anything you want (Ugh…). I don’t really know what to do…

EH-thanks, found it!

mom12-Hashem yirachem. You are right, I also cry and daven to Hashem, it seems like only a nes will help my son. If only we could ignore him, but he is so chutzpadik and embarrases us at every opportunity. Do you think that kids do this kind of stuff to bother us? Maybe your sister should try to get her dgt to speak to someone now, before things get bigger. I’m thinking, if only my son would have spoken to someone years ago/opened up, maybe he would have worked through some of the issues that led to this…

BTW,my son went to look at 2 low pressure yeshivas. One is a bit more ‘serious’ than the other, bc it’s a half day of Torah learning, and the kids are still in black and white. They learn a profession in the afternoon, and they can sleep there. The other one is also a half day of learning but almost no limudei kodesh. But there is a lot of emotional support from the Rebbes, and the kids can basically wear what they want. I met the Rebbe, and thought he was good. I’m just afraid of the kinds of kids that will go there, plus he has to commute and still live at home. I’m trying to get him to consider other yeshivas, but he’s so DIFFICULT…

pcoz-I don’t think my son has a hero. But if I pressed it, probably it would be a fighter, like Bruce Lee, a singer, or a dancer from “Step Up”…why?

mom12-but how did you survive those years? I can barely manage each day, cause each day brings new ‘surprises’. Now he’s wearing a bracelet. I’m petrified of what’s to come…and I’ll have to go through this for another 3 years????

Last night, my son bombarded me with all the things I did wrong his whole life. He’s angry with everyone in his life from his RY, mashgiach, yeshiva friends, Shul, parents, neighbors etc etc. At what point, if ever, does a teenager begin to look at himself honestly and say, “Maybe I’m too sensitive, maybe I’m too controling. Maybe it’s partly me”? As long as my son blames everyone in his life for leaving the derech, how will he ever come back? My husband and I are supposed to be ‘loving and accepting’, but my son is making life unbearable. With all the support I have, I still feel like I’m hanging by a thread. How are we supposed to survive this?

Imaofthree-I liked your idea, and will have to give it some thought. Maybe my husband knows someone who could use someone to help him. How are you doing??

2scents and Sam2-unfortunately, I don’ have good news. Perhaps the only good news is that he spoke to a counselor, which is, actually, a big accomplishment. But he seems to be going downhill at an exponential rate, there’s no learning, no mitzvos, almost no connection to the family. All he does is sleep all day and hang out all night. We’re trying to get him to consider some type of program for next year, but he doesn’t want to do anything. A few good programs were suggested, but he won’t even consider them. I’m hoping he’ll soften, or else we will have to take some type of action that will force a confrontation. I’m so afraid of the chevra’s influence, some of them do drugs, and they are all looking for girls…Hashem Yirachem…

pcoz-thank-you, B’ezras Hashem I hope so.

RSRH_I hear everything you are saying and like popa-bar-abba said, my son is not any happier now either. Perhaps he feels freer, since he isn’t learning or doing any mitzvos, but usually he is angry, bored or depressed. I never raised my kids to think that a non religious Jew can’t be happy, I always taught my kids that we live by the Torah bc it’s emes. Like you said, there are many paths to happiness (even though it’s based on false pretenses). You said, “Many, irreligious Jews and non-Jews enjoy much real, genuine, and lasting simcha in there lives.” But isn’t this is based on their feelings of “success”, and “accomplishments” which they attribute to their own efforts? The core premise of their ‘genuine’ simcha is false and lacking.

And perhaps, when ‘everything is going right’, everyone can be happy. But when things are not going well, I’ve never seen secular Jews weather the storm the way so many religious Jews do.

The kids my son are with are not a happy bunch. They seem to be trying to escape life’s responsibilities, and barely function in the real world. Living as a responsible, successful secular Jew would be better than living as a street boy without goals. Unfortunately, that’s where my son is right now.

popa-bar-abba-like you said, my son is not happy. But he doesn’t seem to want to leave the rut he’s in right now. I am not telling my son he must be frum, that is between him and Hashem, and he will have to find his own way. But I am telling him that in my home, I expect him to behave a certain way, and that doesn’t include sleeping all day until 3pm, and then hanging out with street kids until 3am. The difficulty I am having now is in deciding how to enforce that.

To all the moms of kids OTD-How bad can it get? And how do you manage to stay sane and run the house?

Thank-you Imma613! I’m open to suggestions. I will check it out.

mom12-I spoke to a psychologist who told me that sometimes a stronger approach does work, it depends upon the nature of the child. In general, the way to go is to be accepting, and let the child find his own way, especially if he is controlling and strong-willed. But he has seen the other way work too in some cases.

I think it’s so important to keep your husband and son talking. As mothers, we naturally do this, but if the kids have a strong connection to both parents, it seems like it would be doubly hard for kids to do something that would be hurtful to both parents.

mack15-I hope you are right.

mom12-My son slept most of Shabbos, and read a book. But he was very angry with us, and made sure everyone knew it. It is the first time the RY and his Rav reached out to him, but unfortunately, a bit too late. My son is not interested in learning anymore. They tried to get him to consider a low pressure yeshiva, but my son is basically black-mailing us with so many demands, that it doesn’t seem reasonable. Also, his thinking is so outside of a Torah way of life these days, that I can’t imagine it would last even if he went. I hear your worries! Maybe the kita vav Rav should call more often, maybe it will keep him out of ‘trouble’.

Will someone please wake me up from this nightmare..

gavra at work-so far, every gesture I made was rejected. I keep trying different things, hoping something will click. But he is getting revengeful, trying to get the other kids to go against us. I am really controling myself. I never thought I could get to the point of getting angry, but this Shabbos he was so difficult, that if he doesn’t change his language/behavior soon, I’ll have to consider other living options. (I can’t believe I said that). So far, love is not conquering anything..

Pirate-it’s a great idea, but I could never get him to agree. I’m hoping he will to go to a counselor, and am trying to think of ways to ‘convince’ him to go. Any suggestions?

BRAINFREEZE_ I never said ‘family’ doctors, re-read my post. And although psychiatrists are the ones to treat bipolar, psychologists and social workers are also quite familiar with this illness and know how to diagnose it, although they typically defer to the psychiatrist. I don’t know why you continue to suggest that my son is bipolar. According to the DSM IV, he is not bipolar! In case you are not familiar with the DSM IV, it is the diagnostic manual psychiatrists and mental health professionals use to diagnose bipolar, and every other mental illness. Thanks again for being so concerned..

MO Chossid-mechila given. Sometimes, a person can say or do all the right things, accept advice and good suggestions, and still meet without success. I’ve learned this from this horrible situation with my son. I’m not saying I am a perfect parent by any means. I am only perfectly imperfect! But the more I spoke to my son over the past few months since this got started, the more I see that he is on a path to destruction, where love and good sense cannot reach him. The way things are now, I can’t imagine how we will get to Elul. Each day is gehennom. Pray for us..

mom12-probably he will go out anyway, but maybe he’ll come home a little earlier? Not sure. But the idea is not to let him perpetuate a lazy lifestyle. My son was home the whole Shabbos bc of what happened between my husband and my son’s chevra. Not sure if he did the right thing by confronting them, bc it embarrased my son. My husband thinks he was right bc it kept them away from eachother. But for how long? Anyway, my son was angry the whole Shabbos, and it really wasn’t pleasant. My son’s Rebbe called and spoke to my son. He wants to meet him tomorrow, let’s see what happens..

BRAINFREEZE-perhaps I don’t know what’s going on in NY these days, but in Israel, it is unfortunately very common to see kids like this. Here, many teens DO smoke, especially in yeshiva. And while it is unfortunate, there are many teens, (if not the majority), who are anxious and/or depressed as well. I’m not saying it’s acceptable, and I do desperately want to help my son. But he doesn’t let us help him. And I personally know at least 8 families with kids who went OTD and do worse than what you mentioned.

I have family/friends who are doctors/psychologists and I can say that my son doesn’t have bipolar, but thanks for your concern.

zahavasdad-We never thought he would love the yeshiva if he went back, the plan was only to finish this year and then he’d decide what he wants to do next year. In the interim, I would try to get him to speak to someone. He only has a few more weeks! The only thing that’s changed is that he doesn’t want to finish this year. Either way, he’s still with the chevra, without plans for next year. He probably would have fallen anyway during Ben Hazmanim, but by leaving the yeshiva, he fell a little sooner than expected..

And what do you think plan B should have been?

zahavasdad-we are way past those possibilities. My son isn’t home. My husband has been on the phone with his Rav, and we are meeting tomorrow with another counselor. Baruch Hashem I have some good friends with strong shoulders…

interjection-thanks for your uplifting words..I hope to see them come true.

pcoz-Thanks, I hope you are right..

mom12-hope you are right. Have a good Shabbos…

zahavasdad-Maybe you are missing my point, or playing devil’s advocate?? If Obama were to speak at the U.N., or get on t.v. and threaten Ahmadinejad in t-shirt, jeans with a baseball cap, who would take him seriously? And there is a dress code for the White House. If you remember a few years ago, when Obama first took office, there was an uproar bc Obama was in the Oval office WITHOUT his suit jacket (he was wearing a white shirt and a tie). Bush had a rule that a suit and tie must ALWAYS be worn in the White House. Why do you think this might be…?

Zahavasdad-If Obama wore jeans in the White House, what would you think of our leadership? When the people you mentioned wear jeans,they are not representing their companies, they are home. However, Jews are a ‘light unto the nations’ and always represent Hashem. We should always look respectable, and jeans with a t-shirt just doesn’t do it.

thehock-thanks for the reminder. That is the only way to deal with it, to strengthem my other children so they can handle any backlash.

tahini-thanks.

I hope people don’t think I’m implying that Torah communities are speaking lashon hara, chas v’shalom. Like anything else you might feel could adversely affect your children, l’toeles, you might tell your kids to stay away from something..right? That’s all I meant.