write or wrong

aries2756-you get right to the punch, and it’s good that she heard you. But if a kid is immature, like my son is unfortunately, then he would only get defensive if I were to say something like that. I think a kid has to be at a certain maturity to be able to ‘hear’ and accept what you said. Does it pay to say things like that now when my son’s not able to accept it, hoping it will somehow sink in? Or do I have to wait for maturity to kick in?

aries2756-So true!! I should write it down, bc I felt exactly like you said…like he is there, deep down inside, somewhere… But he’s got such a tough exterior. (I hope it’s just the exterior, bc he doesn’t talk, act, walk, or look the same anymore.)

zahvasdad-thanks..you made me laugh!

the hock-He wouldn’t be interested in cooking either, but thanks for the suggestion.

zahavasdad-point taken.

Imaof3-it’s a good idea, and I have asked my husband to ask around if someone might want to do this chesed.

aries2756-I think you are right. Today I didn’t ask if he wanted to eat something, I just gave him a plate of food and said I made extra by mistake. He took it!

aries2756-everything you said sounds so smart, and I will try to incorporate your suggestions. The people in my neighborhood don’t really have experience with this issue, although a number of my husband’s friends/aquaintances have tried to reach out to my son, but to no avail. My son doesn’t help out with anything in the house, and would say no when asked. But, perhaps if something were broken (he’s very good at fixing things), I might be able to catch him in a decent mood and ask him to fix it…

Even the zoo idea, he would say no to. He’s really not motivated to do anything. I’ve offered to take him out to lunch, for ice cream etc, but he always says no. He doesn’t even eat any of the meals I prepare. He’ll eat something like cornflakes instead. It’s as if he won’t let himself feel ‘taken care of’. But I appreciate everything you said, and I will try to remember your points and look for/create opportunities to put it all into practice.

pcoz-if it’s true what you say, that kids will become what they have been brought up to be expected to become, then I shouldn’t be worried in the least.

here to help-you said, that by providing my son’s needs, no matter what they are, I am eliminating his need to get it elsewhere. But one of his needs is a peer group, and friends. How do you address this, since this seems to be his crucial need right now? If you tell me that by doing the other things, it will lessen his dependence on the chevra, that’s fine. But he has no one to replace them, since he is disconnected (or never was connected) to the yeshiva kids.

Sam2-it wouldn’t work, his chevra loves animals and he’d take the dog with him and be the ‘center of attention’, connecting even more to these kids. Anyway, we can’ have dogs in my building.

interjection-I think kids today are generally more rebellious and lazy, and that’s why they reject everything as being shtussim. Everything feels like pressure to them, including putting on a shirt when coming to the table. So you can imagine how it feels for them having to do mitsvos, no matter how enjoyable you make it. My son would rather stay in bed with his android, than go to friends, family, or on a vacation. They don’t do anything they don’t feel like doing, especially when they can play hi-tech video games/watch movies for hours on end without getting up from their bed. Technology has created a lazy generation…

here to help- I agree that infusing our kids with healthy self esteem works better than trying to control our kids. But how does this method give them self esteem? I see it as giving them artificial victory, not genuine self esteem. Self esteem comes from feeling worthy, valuable and important. And I’m afraid that this method may devalue us as parents in the eyes of the other children.

Also, how do we handle the fact that he sleeps all day, and stays out all night/plays with computer/watches movies in his room until dawn, perpetuating this cycle that is becoming almost impossible to break? And is it okay to bring anything he wants into the home against our wishes ie android, computer, dog?

nossond-thanks for the pointers!

here to help-what if, I can accept everything you say, but my husband, every once in a while, digresses? What if only one parent can be the person you’re describing, will it still work? I thought my husband and I were together on this, but my son is really pressing all his buttons, and I’m afraid my husband might not be able to give up control completely. Is this common? Sometimes when my husband gets into these ‘moods’, I try to remind him that it’s not about ‘us’, it’s about our son, but in these moments, it’s hard to bring him back to the goal. Any advice? I really want to do this…

here to help-I’m not sure its going to work on my son. For one thing, he talks out of both sides of his mouth. He is extremely smart, controling and manipulative even when he’s on the derech. The other thing is, my husband keeps telling me of someone he knows with a son in the same situation, who wanted to stay out all night. The reason he doesn’t, is bc his mother DID lock him out once, and he slept on a park bench. Since then, he’s been coming home on time! I told my husband, maybe it worked in the short run, but they may lose in the long run. But we don’t seem to have any guarantees doing things this way either. My son’s chevra tells my son what to do, ie ‘just scream at your parents, and they’ll give in’; “they can’t force you to do anything, you can do whatever you want”. The only advantage I can see by ‘twisted parenting’ is that the ‘battle’ is removed. But the kid won!! No resistance, no disapproval. Why would he ever come back? Isn’t it just a way of letting him fly further and further away? (I hope I don’t come across as being cynical, I’m really just trying to understand it better so I can do it correctly).

My other question is, are there any parents in my situation who felt like their child would never come back to the derech, and then they did? For some reason, and I hope I’m wrong, I think that once my son takes the final steps to leave the derech (chas v’Shalom), he won’t ever come back. He’s just too stubborn, and would never want to admit that he made a mistake…Hashem forgive me, and I do hope I’m wrong

Hmom-I wish I could give you some good advice, but the truth is, I am completely broken myself. My 16yo quit yeshiva, and stays out all night with a bunch of street kids. The worst part is that he seems determined to fall further. All I can say, is to go to the beginning of this forum when I first started it, and read all the wonderful supportive words that people gave me to help get me through the initial shock of this. Then, realize that the only people our children won’t listen to, is us. In your situation, I would look for someone your daughter looks up to, or has a good relationship with that could form a bond with her right now. Maybe she’ll be able to hear from them what she can’t yet hear from you. Also, Mom12 said to me in one post, “you keep talking, even if you don’t think they’re listening”. You never know, at some point, something might click, (hopefully soon!). I’ve tried to be less authoritative, and more like a friend to my son, bc it just breeds resistance and power struggles. I can’t say it’s worked in the short run, but I’m hoping that in the long run, he’ll be less defiant and ‘think things through’ a bit more. I’ve tried talking sense into my son, but I’m beginning to feel that, unfortunately, things may have to progress (or regress) on their own, before they get better. It’s extremely painful for us as parents to watch our kids do the wrong thing, especially when we know they are hurting themselves, but I don’t think we can stop them from going down the path they choose. They have to decide to stop, or not. If you know people firsthand who had a bad experience doing some of the things your daughter is doing, you could connect the 2 of them ‘matter of factly’ so she can hear things for herself. If you have always had a close relationship with your daughter, you might try to catch her in a good moment to have a heart to heart talk with her about your (loving) concern for her, with tears in your eyes. Nothing preachy, try to understand her point of view, but then just reality-test some of the things she says with good common sense and concern for her well being. Perhaps you’ve done this already.

You asked me how I am coping. Well, if you saw me on Shabbos, you would understand that I am not coping at all. I still think it’s just a bad dream, and I am desperate to wake up! In just a few months, my life has turned completely upside-down. Everyday is gehennom for me. I can’t even smile at my other children, bc I always have tears in my eyes, Hashem help me,..help us all…

aries2756-I couldn’t agree with you more!

Hmom-Welcome! And you are right, it is unbearable pain. Even if it’s not ‘about us’ per se, that doesn’t mean we aren’t hurting terribly. It’s just that bc we are the parent, and are in a position to either help our child, or chas v’shalom, make it worse, we have to somehow put our pain on hold (or work it through) so that we can make our child the priority and hopefully guide them back on the derech. I have to say that I have felt tremendous chizuk from this thread, thanks to the many amazing and caring people who have offered their time and advice. I often wonder, how would I ever repay everybody for their kindness when I don’t know who anybody is??

Imaofthree-I’m not really sure what they are doing all night. If it’s a weekday, they’re probably on computers, watching movies, chatting on facebook. Maybe looking for girls(?), G-d forbid. My son says they’re ‘just talking’, but….. I hope there’s no drugs, and I have talked to my son about the dangers. How are you doing?

pcoz- a Rebbe

here to help-Yes! Please continue. Just a question about giving the hugs, my son doesn’t let my husband show him affection. Is there something else he should do? Also, about ‘No control’, does that mean no rules? My son wants to stay out all night, we should just be quiet about it and not voice our disapproval?

aries2756-thanks for your insight and advice. What a great point you made, it’s really smart…and true. And the note is a good idea, mom12 also suggested it.

pcoz-convincing my son that he needs therapy right now would just create more friction. Of course I believe he would benefit from it, in fact, I think MOST people would benefit from it. But like ‘here to help’ mentioned, our relationship would have to improve a bit before he could hear of the idea, let alone accept it.

Crisis of the week-I am not ‘skeptical of the mental health community’, on the contrary, I am working with them in order to survive this! I’m sorry, but your reasoning is off. Issues about shidduchim, and therapists trying to get you to abandon yiddishkeit is ridiculous. As for the bipolar issue, bipolar is a very specific psychiatric disorder with specific criteria needed for the diagnosis. BRAINFREEZE has insisted many times in previous posts that my son has bipolar, despite the fact that he does not have the criteria NECESSARY for the diagnosis. To say that I am in denial, after all this time, makes me wonder about the ‘reason’ for the suggestion. I have consulted with every type of professional at this point, in a desparate effort to help my son. If things were as simple as you say, that if he just took a pill, he’d be fine, I’d make sure to fill his closet with that pill. I do appreciate everyone’s advice, and I have followed up on many suggestions. But if something is not applicable, I think we should let it go… 🙂

here to help-thanks for being blunt, I do take this seriously and don’t want to make any mistakes. What do you mean by my husband being on board? My husband does agree with everything in theory, but putting things into practice can be challenging at times. He does see my son as a choleh nefesh, and when we speak, we are united in our love for our son, our assessment of things and our goals. It’s just that sometimes, they get into power struggles. I end up having to be a buffer, and the voice of reason, reminding my husband of our conversations.

Are you a therapist?

here to help-you are absolutely right. The only way I can control my feelings/reactions, is to see my son as being ‘sick’ right now. I’m not sure I am doing anything right anymore. And I’m not sure I’m able to put everyone’s great advice into practice, bc he is soooooo difficult. I’m basically just staying above water, trying to maintain peace between my husband and son, and keeping an eye on my son for that window of opportunity, where I might be able to reach him again…

here to help-let’s say, my son did suffer an emotional trauma in school many years ago, and it festered inside him all these years. Perhaps, other things also aggravated it. How do we help him now? Everyone says give acceptance and unconditional love, but how do you do that when he’s EXTREMELY nasty and chutzpadik, angry, and is either never home, sleeping, or on the computer ignoring you? He bought himself some computer-IPOD-Android thing, and now he’s on it constantly, with no patience to talk to us. Would appreciate any advice..

phrum-I hope you are right, and he does find the right people and make his way back to Torah Judaism..

pcoz-right

mom12-will do!

pcoz-I’ll tell you the truth, the more time that passes by, the more I see that my son’s choice to go OTD had nothing to do with any of the things we mentioned. My kids don’t think they have to be perfect in mitsvos for Hashem to see us as a good person. Every Jew, regardless of their level of observance is inherently good. Most of the mothers I met seemed easy going, not judgemental or critical. And the mothers I know personally who are going through this, are also down to earth and yirat Shamayim. A shiur I listened to by Rabbi Shaya Cohen said it’s bc the kids today don’t feel simcha in their Judaism. Perhaps they feel the stresses/struggles of the parents, or perhaps in this world of advanced technology, spirituality got lost. I think my son’s choice has more to do with a lack of self esteem, and not ever feeling like he fit in to the yeshiva he attended. I think it began when the kids made fun of him, and it left such a scar, that bc he is so sensitive, he was never able to forget it or forgive the kids for it. I see him with the crowd he’s with now, and he’s a different person. He’s much more talkative, confident, and secure. He was never like that with the yeshiva kids, he was always so quiet and shy. The proof is that he feels no connection to the yeshiva or the boys after all these years.

mom12-I will try the letter idea. My husband and I were just having this discussion about how my son has been in this school system for many years, so why did they take so long to call my son? In the 3 weeks he’s been home, only now the mashgiach and one of the bachurim called. It’s true that the RY called a week or 2 ago, but I think they should have made more of an effort to keep the connection. My husband thinks that anyway, my son would say no to any invitations or efforts to mekarev him. But there’s an expression that goes, “Just because the message wasn’t received, doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth sending”.

I haven’t yet made contact with “Shalom Rav” or “Home Sweet Home”, but we did contact 2 other low pressure yeshivas in the north of Israel. But we have to get my son to consider ‘checking them out”, and so far, he won’t.

Wishing you all a Good Shabbos….

JustThink-You are right in theory, and I’ve told my son, if you don’t want to be haredi, then don’t. But why reject Torah completely, you just don’t have to be as machmeer as we are. But in practice, in doesn’t work. It’s almost as if (and it’s not just my son, it’s pretty much EVERY kid who goes off the derech from a haredi family over here), that the kid has to reject the whole thing, in order to find out what he wants (if he wants) to come back to. And I have seen some kids from haredi families come back, but not to the same level as the parents. But for some reason, they couldn’t take that direct route in the first place, and avoid going off the derech. They had to do it in this painful way, unfortunately…