WolfishMusings

wolf: leave it up to god

You really should use a capital G when referring to HKBH.

to allocate where your prayers go and whom they benefit. just because you think you are saying a prayer “for such and such” does not make it so.

For general prayers, yes. But here, I’m explicitly saying them because someone died and for the purported benefit of that person.

The Wolf

wolf: it says “kol haneshama tehalel yah” that includes you.

Of course it does, and I’m not suggesting that I’m exempt from prayer.

But the question here is this: If my personal prayer is a blasphemy, that only harms myself. Here, I’m saying it for someone else and I don’t want to harm them.

The Wolf

I don’t know you, but I would assume that if you are saying kaddish for someone who has no one else to say kaddish for them, you are not such a “certified rasha gamur”.

I thank you for the kind words, but the Chofetz Chaim disagrees with you.

The Wolf

WM: Have you ever c’v had to say Kaddish for someone halachicly required of you?

Yes. My mother passed away five and a half years ago.

If not, are you even allowed to say Kaddish for someone not halachicly required of you?

Question not applicable since the premise is not true.

If you c’v had to say Kaddish for someone halachicly required, would you be asking the same question you ask in your OP? Why would it be less applicable?

Because halacha says that you are required to say kaddish for some people, and we find no exception that says that one is exempt if one is wicked. However, perhaps, if not required, one should not say it, so as to not harm the deceased.

The Wolf

No. If they comply they don’t get anything. Plus Malkus mardus is dRabbonim and tzorich chizzuk yoser midivrei Torah.

Then the answer is “yes,” not “no.”

Of course we’re talking about when they don’t comply. That’s the very basis of the question. So, you’re of the opinion that the witnesses get a worse death penalty (being beaten to death slowly) than the perpetrator who actually committed the crime.

The Wolf

But let’s say?

You can’t hoist ask veiberishe questions.

Why? You don’t think it’s impossible that the witnesses would not know or that a Bais Din can make a mistake?

The Wolf

My Rebbe told me all Yidden back then were Heilige Yirei Shomayim. Of course they would of enthusiastically followed the Daas Torah of Bais Din.

Of course, if they were *all* Heilige Yirei Shomayim,” there would be no need for a Beis Din of 23 to exist in the first place.

The Wolf

but either way the rest of the punishment will still be carried out bec. if not the perpetrator will miss out his caporoh

Again… I’m not asking about the perpetrator. I understand the perpetrator will be executed regardless. My question was what will happen to the witnesses?

The Wolf

Therefore killing the protagonist has a by product in addition to removing the evil. It also shows our belief that אלוקים נצב בעדה.

I’m not disputing the halacha or even questioning it’s necessity. I’m just asking what would happen to the witnesses if they just flat out refused to actually kill the perpetrator themselves.

The Wolf

Why would the witnesses have brought the case to begin with?

Any number of reasons.

Perhaps they did not know that they, themselves would have to execute him.
Perhaps they are squeamish and cannot do the deed themselves.
Perhaps they were hoping that they could send a shliach to do it for them.
… and I’m sure there are plenty of other potential scenarios.

The Wolf

When Bais Din ordered someone to do something, it made no difference whether or not the person “wanted to” comply or not. Bais Din was quite capable of ensuring that their rulings were complied with.

Well, that was my question, wasn’t it? *What* can Bais Din do? Malkus Mardus? And what if they still refuse? Do they get executed too?

The Wolf