WinnieThePooh

Avi- I really did not want to take this thread off topic, especially since this had been dealt with on so many other threads, but since we are having a respectful discussion, I hope everyone does not mind that I answer you.
1. I can’t answer for everyone’s level of emuna and extent of hishtadlus they have to do. I do know that the during the Gulf War, people in Bnai Brak who were definitely in line of fire did not run to sealed rooms because they were assured by… (was it Rav Shach Z”TL? or rav Kanievsky?) that the Torah of Bnei Brak would protect them. And they were protected.
2. I think it’s because saying it is a political message, and because there are problems with adding tefillos that are not part of the mesora. But plenty of shuls end davening with “Acheinu kol bais yisroel” and a kappitel tehillim, usually more frequently level during an active war/military operation.
3. Yes, not all are learning, and it would be great (in my opinion) if those who are not making it- shabavnikim and also regular people who are not cut out for full time learning- had other options within the system. Theoretically, it would be better for boys at risk or trouble makers to get out their aggression in the army, learn some discipline- including being forced to attend davening- that is what function Nachal Hareidi serves (Nahal Hareidi is a misnomer- practically, it’s mostly for Chareidi drop-outs and dati leumi who want something more sheltered than the hesder units). But there is a real spiritual risk of going to the army for a typical Hareidi boy- you can’t deny it- and so for most boys, it would not be better for them to go.
In terms of how to do the learning- you can’t compare someone learning in a hesder program (5 years combined learning and army) to someone learning full time for 10-20-30 + years. There are those who learn just for the sake of learning, there are those who learn to teach. There was in the past some capacity in the army to be a Rav Chayal, I think it was called- I know there were chareidi boys who joined and served in that way, and taught Torah as part of their service. I doubt it exists today- the army is not encouraging spread of Torah among the recruits (remember the furor over some officer who encouraged his soldiers to daven or say tehillim before they went out?). As far as using their analytical skills for military intelligence- great idea, for those who don’t want/can’t continue their Torah studies and are looking for jobs. But for those who want to learn- let them learn, without strings!

One more point, the chareidi community is dynamic and change needs to come from within, if and when it is appropriate, not when outsiders dictate it.

Avi K-
1. there is so much history of distrust, of distortion of people’s intentions, of stereotyping on both sides.
Chareidim have long memories of the early days when the secular Zionists pushed their agenda, pulled people away from Yiddishkeit and tried to interfere with mosdos chinuch. Things have changed, secular motives have changed, but the suspicion is still there- and anything that smacks of interfering by the secularists, especially when it comes to the chinuch system, will put the chareidim on the defensive.
2. Yes, many of the jobs that chareidim take have low salaries (hmm… yeshivas budgets are small, partly because they receive less government funding compared to public government schools, and so they can’t afford to pay their Rebbeim large salaries…Although I think Rebbeim do get paid more than BY teachers, and their salaries are linked to Misrad Hachinuch scales, so you can say that all teachers get paid low salaries). Part of it is idealism, or of wanting to stay within a frum Torah-oriented environment even when working, and partly do to lack of skills in other areas. But that does not mean they are lazy or shirking responsibility or expecting hand-outs.
In terms of discrimination in hiring, as I said in point 1, there is a long history of distrust on both sides, and chilonim are scared of chareidim whom they really don’t understand. Peleg’s actions of course does not help. I can’t say I blame them for not hiring chareidim, I’m just pointing out the obstacles to those who are searching for jobs.
3. As discussed over and over again on this issue, the lomdei Torah feel that they are protecting Am Yisroel. Just as there are many jobs in the army- and you wouldn’t say that the base cook is doing less of a duty than the combat soldier, so too the lomdei Torah have an important job. The problem is that the secular public does not recognize the importance of this job. Besides, if we were honest, the army really does not want (or need) a mass amount of chareidim serving, it would be a logistical nightmare!
4. Despite the rhetoric often spread on this forum, the world is not divided into Zionists and anti-Zionists. There are those who don’t believe in the shitas of the medina, but love E”Y and understand that this is the government they got and they have to live with for the meanwhile, as long as the galus continues. They are not traitors. They vote for the parties that they feel will best represent their interests. They pay taxes, they pay VAT on the clothing and food etc they buy for their large families, and they are as deserving of social benefits as any other citizen.

CS, your last point I think everyone can agree with- and it’s true of all tzaddikim. Which is why when we learn, we say “Rashi says” and not “Rashi said”, not because we think he is still alive and talking, but because his influence and teachings live on beyond him. If this answer truly reflects Chabad Hashkafa today, then we can end the discussion here.
But even so, we still need live leaders and teachers to guide us, we can’t just live based on what was taught and written before us, trying to interpret these teachings and apply them to our times.

Avi K- re setting curriculum. Yes, the secular majority is worried about the time when there will be a chareidi majority who are undereducated, and are worried that the economy and highly technical industries will collapse. To solve this, if they could get away with it, they would force a core curriculum on the Chareidi schools.
Counterargument: 1. force has never worked. Chareidi schools give varying amounts of secular subjects- just looking at the numerous chadarim in my neighborhood, it ranges from 0 to several hours a day, without any force. But if you force it, likely as not, those who now give secular studies will stop in protest.
2. I do not think that the term “mass of people who refuse to work” is accurate. Unless you define work as being in hi-tech or being a lawyer, etc. Many chareidim work- it may even be a majority- they work as educators, in kashrus, as business owners, and in many areas that service the chareidi community. There are many training courses for those who need to brush up on their skills. For those who want a job outside of the traditional chareidi job market, something funny happens. Even when qualified, suddenly no one wants to hire them. The same chilonim who are screaming that chareidim should leave Yeshiva and go to work, are the ones who don’t want to hire those who do want to work in these fields.
3. What has prevented many men from going out to work when they are no longer producing in their learning, or when they need the parnassa, is that work has been linked to army service. For the chareidi bochur/young avreich, going to the army is a spiritual non-starter. Get rid of that condition, and many more would join the workforce, as you see among chareidim in the US. I believe the Tal Law saw the fallacy in linking work to army service, after a certain age, but the Tal Law no longer exists.
4. Do you really think that the Yeshiva world will hold by exams set by the Chief Rabbinate to determine who is a talmid chochom?

770- peirush on Avram in MD:
It has nothing to do with Chabad.
It’s because traditionally on the CR threads on Zionism and tznius dominated the controversial topics, and got everyone riled up. Were new such threads opened up, the assumption is that the Chabad threads would fall down in rank, and be forgotten, as everyone would get distracted by the new/old hot topics.

MoshiacChat- at the risk of being a target of your sassiness again, when no insult is intended…
You mentioned a couple of times that the Rebbe brought down medrashim, or a Rashi and Tosfos to explain his views, and urged people to check out the sichos and see for themselves. You must realize by now, that posters here will not be looking this up in the Sicha, practically, because they don’t have the Rebbe’s sichos on their bookshelves (gasp!) and also because they want to see the sources in their context in an unbiased way. Can you please provide us with the actual primary sources -the medrashim and Rashi/Tosfos that you are referring to?

I don’t know Random3x…but either way, the government was trying to force its agenda. In Israel, there are established parallel tracks of schools, that are recognized by the government but are allowed to set their own curriculum. Yes, there was talk in the last coalition to change that, but B”H the status quo has remained. It seems they are less at risk than schools elsewhere, where liberal “values” have become the new religion. Just trying to point out that Joseph’s fear, although theoretically valid, is B”H not a fact on the ground in Eretz Yisroel.

MashiachChat- I didn’t say you were bashing gedolim, nor that this was a big issue, I just politely asked that you call them Rav, as appropriate, and now I will add, and please do it consistently, not just sometimes. I do find it problematic that you are used to referring to them as Mordechai Eliyahu or Soloveitchik. It is not a compliment. The fact that you are using a phone has not prevented you from typing out long posts, or being sassy, as you call it, so I think you can manage another 3 letters, R-A-V.
Thank you.

CS, thanks for addressing my questions.
One point- I don’t think the fact that there was a Nasi or Av Beis Din supports the 1 Moshe in a generation concept. There needed to be a leader, practically, and usually he was the greatest, but that did not mean that he was the main source of spirituality of that generation. Remember the chain did not include the shoftim or melachim- the acknowledged leaders of the time. Other than Moshe, there were always multiple Neviim in the generation, with different missions- and while one may have been more prominent- like Shmuel, that did not mean there were not other Neviim. Once Nevua ended, the chain went to the Anshei Keneses Hagedola- the Rabbanim as a whole, it does not say the mesora went to the Av Beis Din or the Nasi. The task of passing on the mesora, bringing down the Shechina was on all Rabbanim as teachers of Torah Sh’Bal Pe. Moshe as one leader was necessary since the Torah that he received is One. But that came with a danger- relying too much on one individual mortal to connect to Hashem- as we see what happened with Chet HaEgel.

You have acknowledged what most of us have suspected, that chabad thinks they are the true and only derech, the only way Mashiach will come, the rest of us are left out in the dark, nebach, but that is how it is in the world of hierarchy. well, the rest of us disagree. Mashiach can come from anyone. We are all trying to be oveid Hashem in the best way for each of us, and hope our actions will make us worthy to bring Mashiach. There are 70 Panim L’Torah, 12 shevatim, multiple LEGITIMATE paths to Avodas Hashem. Elu V’Elu Divrei Elokim Chaim. There is much Torah out there that supports that there are other derachim. In fact, you might argue that since the 7-generation-7-Rebbes–bringing-Mashiach concept did not work out the way Chabad expected it to, that maybe the concept was wrong. It’s funny how you bring the GRA down as an example of someone who could not be Mashiach or bring Mashiach because he was not Chabad, Well, the GRA sent his talmidim to E”Y. Many thought that was the beginning of the days of Mashaich. He was supposed to join them. There are many stories about how he set out for E”Y but turned back, because the time was not yet ripe for Mashiach, implying that the GRA had a lot to do with bringing about Mashiach. I know a story is not evidence, and no one knows what went on with the GRA, but it shows you that there are sparks of Mashiach everywhere. Chazal say that Chizkiyahu Hemelech could have been Mashiach, but the generation was not worthy. R’ Akiva believed at first that Bar Kochva was Mashiach. Neither Chizkiyahu nor Bar Kochva were Chabad Tzaddikim. So if in the past Mashiach could come from other sources, same applies for now. And good thing for that, since as you admitted, there are no Chabad TAzddikim right now.

Since we are all being intellectually honest here (I think): can you answer this question:
Tomorrow Mashiach comes. And he is Litvish. Or Sefardi. Or a Gerrer Chassid, etc. Will you accept him?

Because you might splatter someone else walking near you who is not wearing boots.

A couple of broad questions (from someone with a very Litvish way of thinking):
1. You called these concepts “chassidus 101” which means that they are true for all chassidus, and are not just Chabad/tanya tenets? If so, then all chassidim have the concept of tzadddik. Presumably, every group will believe that their Rebbe is a tzaddik. You stated that the tzaddik has the neshama of Moshe Rabbeinu, and every generation has one. But if every group has a tzaddik, then every group has its Moshe Rabbeinu? Or are some Rebbes/Tzaddikim bigger than others, and the rest are just imposters (no disrespect to any Rebbe meant, just trying to understand how this fits the bigger picture). Along a similar vein, when you quoted from the Rebbe that he was the 7th generation, implying that like the Avos, each Rebbe brought the shechina down one level, with the last Rebbe having the mission to complete the process and bring Mashiach, my question is: what about all the other great Tzaddikim/Rebbeim thru the generations outside of the chain of Chabad- they were not capable of this too? why exclude the Besht and the Maggid of Mezeritch and Rav Shmelke and the Noam Elimelech, just to name a famous few?
2. I think you are saying that being a tzaddik is not a process a person can do himself, as you call it a gift from Hashem. It is not that someone worked on himself to get to this level, but that Hashem chooses a leader in each generation and bestows on him the level of Tzaddik. Would that be correct? Does that explain the Rebbe hierarchy (in any chassidus)- how automatically a son/son-in law/ nearest relative takes over from the previous Rebbe and becomes a Tzaddik, no matter what his age or level of Torah learning?

For those of you educating the rest of us about chasidus- can you define the following terms used in various posts above (unless they are typos- but then again until now I didn’t know Gesze was a word)
post #1405695: “the friendlier rebbe” – was there really such a Rebbe?
post #1405694: “chadimdim”
post #1405442″ “litvishe Chassidus” (isn’t that an oxymoron?)

I had chicken pox at age 5.
I wanted my kids to acquire natural immunity, and it was still not part of the mandatory vaccinations, so I opted not to vaccinate. We waited a long time until they were exposed and came down with it. All my kids caught it from each other, the first actually caught it from a classmate who was vaccinated and had a mild case. My baby at the time caught it too, real bad- was too old to be covered by my immunity but too young to develop her own as a result, meaning she could get it again. Not wanting to put here through it again, and knowing that the actual disease was becoming rarer and rarer as more kids were immunized, I decided in the end to give her the vaccine.

I agree LB, it is hard to know from a temperature how cold it really is, because “cold” is a combination of things. 50s and sunny is different from 50s and windy/rainy. If you are walking in an exposed area- say a Jerusalem neighborhood on a mountaintop, you’ll feel the extremes more, than if you were walking down a city street closed in by tall buildings. Also, it depends what you are used to. For a NYer, a winter day in the 40s is mild. For Israel, it is bitter cold. Colder climates are more prepared for cold- buildings are insulated and heated, people go from their heated homes to heated cars to heated work-places, and often don’t realize how cold it is. In warmer climates, like Israel, the homes are built for warm weather and the cold can really penetrate. You can’t really warm up inside, (unless you wear lots of layers) so I think you feel the cold more when outside.
I’d say take a coat.

Joseph: 3.5″ type on my Mac, but I did use other computers with both. I even remember a teacher in elementary school showing us punch cards (see, I really am ancient Joseph). Does anyone remember ZIP drives and JAZZ drives? The answer to the memory storage problem! ZIPS, if I remember correctly, could be used for both PCs and Macs so it was a good way to transfer data between different users.

When I got my Mac in the early 90s people were starting to get portable cell phones, but it was not so common. The cell phones were so cumbersome at first that they were really not all that portable. My parents gave me one to use when I traveled alone places in the car, since it was only used for that purpose, I still considered it a car phone. That changed pretty quickly though – the goal became to make them as small as possible, credit card like. Now ironically the trend is reversed, since you actually have to see the screen on an iphone.

Dr. E- that’s only if he comes with a fleet of cars and lots of gifts for the girl and her family. And the girl should be offering to water the cars. He should avoid eating what the father offers, however.

Some other ideas to consider:
Perhaps it is the religious background of the country? Many non-English speaking countries were traditionally Catholic and may have a culture based on anti-Jewish Church teachings, even if these countries are not as religious now, the anti-Jewish sentiment is still there. Example, France, or (pre-war) Poland. Germany on the other hand was heavily influenced by Martin Luther.
Maybe the English speaking countries tended to be greater melting pots, attracting people of different backgrounds, more tolerant. Didn’t succumb to Fascism or Communism.

Here’s another scenario that rephrases the OP’s question, without the complications of CY vs CS.
There are various kosher l’mehadrin hechsherim, different people hold by different ones. None are treif, obviously.
Say I eat a wide range of those, we will call them Hechsher K, L, M, N and P. Hechsher K is found on many items, and is one of the few hechsherim that is accepted by everyone, but it is also more expensive than the others on things like chicken and meat. I am very price conscious when I shop, buy things when they are on sale, and when it comes to a choice between 2 brands, the price will be the most deciding factor. So I will not buy chicken with K hechsher because it is so much more money than M or N.
If I was sending in a snack item for a kid’s school party, or preparing something for a friend’s kiddush, I would make sure to buy/use items only with Hechser K, but those are not expensive, and they are to be consumed outside of my home.
Now Reuven is coming to my house for shabbos, and he only eats hechsher K. Do I accommodate him and buy the more expensive K chicken? Should I ask him in advance what hechsherim he eats? I know there are many people who are makpid on certain hechsherim at home, but when they go to another frum person, they don’t ask questions. But as the host, how far should I go to try to accommodate their optimal standards?

I once caught a lizard that way. Trapped him under a plastic container. I dragged it across the floor that way, but then realized that he might get out (in the wrong direction) when lifting it over the threshold of the back door. So I slid a piece of hard plastic- (like a heavy plastic tablecloth) underneath, and secured it over the container with tape. Then turned it upside down, still covered with the plastic. Once outside, I untaped the plastic and dumped him out over the porch wall. I was real proud of how brave I was. I think I just washed out that container really well with hot water and lots of anti-bacterial soap.

Joseph, I did not say to visit the World’s Fair, but the site… it’s still there in the present, and is a somewhat interesting place to visit.
Note that the OP did not ask how Brooklyn and Queens differed Jewishly, or which was better.
And the crazy street numbering is to keep out unwanted guests, of course! If you are referring to KGH, then you would be talking about numbers in 60s and 70s that are sometimes re-used as Ave, Road, and Drive. You can also throw in a Crescent and a Terrace. The Streets are a separate numbering system, and run parallel to said Aves, Rd, Dr. At least the numbers are in order- other neighborhoods have non-alphabetical street names.
Please explain streets in Brooklyn: New Utrecht Ave and Old New Utrecht Rd. I always wondered why the old and new don’t cancel each other out and just become Utrecht Rd- would save room on the street signs.

LB, if the Mets or the US Open don’t interest you (or it’s not that time of year) you can do some shopping on Main St in Kew Gardens Hills, eat lunch at one of several pizza stores, get some take-out and baked goods for shabbos. then head over to Flushing Meadows Park- feed the ducks, take a nice long walk around the park, visit the Queens Museum, the zoo, the site of the 1964 World’s Fair, etc. You can even visit Trump’s childhood home in Jamaica Estates.

YY- the Dodgers and a “used to have an airport” don’t count, since LB can’t go back in time. As far as 13th Ave in College Point, Queens …I don’t think it has what BoroPark’s 13th Ave has to offer. Maybe there are other 13th Aves?

“I thought that there were 70 versions of Torah in Hebrew?”

No, there is only one version. That is a basic principle of faith, the Torah we have is the Torah that Moshe got on Sinai. I think you are referring to that there are 70 different ways of understanding the Torah.- meaning different layers of meaning behind each word.

Is there a Yeshiva World Underworld too?

It’s a mitzva in the Torah to give tzedaka to aniyim, take care of orphans and widows..so yes, you will still need non-profits to properly keep the Torah. And schools and yeshivas and shuls, which are usually non-profits, will still be needed.

When I wash my fridge shelves in the tub, I first line the tub with towels, so it does not get scratched by the edges of the shelves. B”H never had them shatter, but I imagine this would make it easier to clean up the small pieces of glass if it did.