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Actually, I was just thinking of Avraham Fried’s Menorah song (yes, a Lubavacher, no less- which mentions that we made one menorah in Moshe’s time, but it was extingushed, and we made one menorah in Shlomo’s time, and that was also extinguished. The source apparently is the Yalkut Shimoni. Why does the Midrash imply that the menorah of the first Beis Hamikdash was different from Moshe’s, that there were 2?
When describing the keilim made for the beis hamikdash in Melachim Alpeh (7:49), the pasuk says Shlomo placed 5 menorahs on the right and 5 on the left- Rashi, Metzudos, Malbim explain that Moshe’s Menorah was in the middle, with 5 of Shlomo’s on either side. Do we know what these looked like, and what happened to them?
There apparently were several menorahs in Bayis Sheini- the Yevanim plundered the one made by Ezra/Nechemia, the chashmonaim replaced it, then Hordus made a new one when he did his renovations. Did all these look alike, and were they based on Moshe’s?Umm..there are no Jews in Jordan- at least none that are openly Jewish. I recall there were problems when a group of Jews about a year ago wanted to daven at Aron’s kever on Har Nevo but were not allowed into the country with yarmulkes and tefillin. This past summer, a group of Israelis were harrassed in their hotel by Jordanian police, told it was illegal for them to daven, even in their hotel rooms and threatened with arrest. At the border crossing, they had their suitcases searched and talleisim, books, tefillin, yarmulkes, tzitis were taken. I remember someone else who went on a day tour (from Israel) and had to eat all her kosher food on the tour bus because they were not allowed to bring in food. You might get in under the radar on a British passport, but only if you do not look obviously Jewish.
There are remnants of a Jewish community in Lebanon-maybe a couple of hundred people who for whatever reason could not leave. They keep a very low profile. I would imagine it would not be safe to publicize that you are a Jew in Beirut. Be careful dodging Hezbollah.
The Hermon is part of Israel.Glad for your approval, Health. It’s not a matter of going that far, it’s the best and only place, really, to light in our home.
By the way, the glass cups for oil are huge- they can easily last 6h+ when full. We fill about 2/3 with water and then the rest with oil, so they are out long before we go to sleep.They definitely don’t light on the flight. Imagine trying to get past security with matches, candles and/or oil!
Can they be yotzei by having someone light for them/with them in mind in their place of origin?so you want to know if cost of car+ gas + insurance + maintenance +possible parking fees < or = or > cost of cabs+public transportation
That will depend on your needs-
Do you live within walking distance of the essentials – stores, banks, schools, etc. If schools are far, is there always bus service or will you need to carpool? Does shopping in local within-walking-distance stores mean you will be spending more? What about the commute to work- is there public transportation for that? If you live in an apartment building, how much time will you spend circling to find a parking spot?One would also have to consider the media in which it is grown- does it have animal products added like bovine calf serum, common sources of growth factors for maintaining cells in culture, which are unlikely to be produced from a shechted animal, even if it is kosher (there is also horse serum). And if they use plant products instead of animal products as growth media, then there may be issues of chametz to consider.
AviK I think your ever min hachai question is fascinating. Say they take a muscle fiber biopsy from a live cow, isolate the stem cells or muscle progenitors from the tissue, and then grow it/differentiate into a steak, is eating the steak considered eating ever min hachai?
If you look at technological advances and how they affected society, dramatically changed things, then the following would be huge achievements, huge leaps forward, relative to their times (pre-20th century), perhaps made even greater changes in society than the technological advances of our time.
harnessing fire
domesticating animals
using metals to make tools
invention of the wheel
invention of paper, then printing press
discovery/use of electricitytoday these things seem simple, but only because we are so used to them being around. But arguably, these were more important than video calls, even if the latter is way more sophisticated. And as pointed out above, technology of today would not exist if these earlier advances had not happened.
Here’s something I always wondered about- with today’s rapid pace of advancement, how come air travel is more expensive, less comfortable and no faster than it was 40 years ago? In all that time, no one could come up with a cheaper (i.e. not dependent on oil prices), faster way to fly people from one place to another?I hear LF, but then you should have written nemonia. Why bother with the 2 m’s?
Anyway, glad you are feeling better. LB, keep on giving those berachos- see how quickly they were fulfilled!Lu, thanks. I agree with your point as well- it’s what I meant to imply when I phrased it as “Torah valid Hashkafos” and “devoted to keeping Mitzvos and being ovdei Hashem.”
LB, there are ready made oil cups- filled with liquid oil or solid oil that liquifies when it gets hot. These sometimes are packaged in thick plastic cups, sometimes in glass. Theoretically, the plastic is heat resistant and should not melt, thus an improvement on glass which might shatter. There should be some sort of standard for all cups- ready made, or sold separately- whether glass or plastic – in which they are tested and verified to be able to withstand the heat of all 9 neiros without melting, shattering, etc.
RebYidd, as opposed to windowsills, tables can get bumped into, knocked over. Also tables are often made of flammable material.
We light on the windowsill, which is technically outside the house. It’s made from stone, and covered with foil so it won’t get dirty from the dripping wax and oil. The menorahs are encased in glass “houses” with vents so the wind won’t blow them out. We light (all but the youngest use oil in glass cups, the youngest uses candles) and then close the window. They are out of the way, can’t get accidentally get knocked over, not near anything flammable. If somehow a fire would start, it would be outside the stone structure, once the oil is burned up there would be nothing to fuel it. the worse that can happen is the glass of the window would shatter from the heat and the security bars/metal window frame would melt.
I think it is pretty safe, and I’m pretty paranoid about fire. I wonder what fire safety experts would say about our arrangements?Off topic- Just wondering, Froggie, how your ammonia is persistent. Is it worse than your bleach? Did you try just pouring it down the drain and then flushing with lots of water?
Wait..maybe you meant pneumonia? Oysh, in that case, refuah shelaima x3.some possible answers from an evolutionary point of view, since that is what you are asking:
Each progression in the evolutionary sense is supposed to advance the species so that it is better adapted for survival and/or reproduction. You are assuming that the advancements in technology of the recent past accomplish that. I would argue that they are more likely to bring the species to disaster. Look how successfully humans have used all that technology to kill itself out during the past century, not to mention how smartphones etc are destroying relationships. So perhaps the simple, primitive life was more on track.
there is a concept that evolution happened in bursts, as opposed to a continual, slow process- there were times when things speeded up, and times when nothing happened.
Of course the true answer is along the lines that AviK was saying- that as we approach the times of Moshiach (year 6000, see the other thread), everything gets speeded up, the world is coming closer to perfection. I once heard a speaker express the idea that we have experienced such advances in understanding of biology, physics, etc to compensate for the hester panim- these can be means to draw us closer to an understanding of Hashem thru the Beriya.
Not sure if above was coherent, rather tired right now.I’m not following – Why would taking care of self be considered avoda zara? You just said you need a happy self to be able to fulfill your duties and responsibilities?
Joseph, I noticed last night (in E”Y) that CS posted before the zman in the US, it was about 9:30 E”Y time. She has mentioned in previous posts that she is in a different time zone. But she could be anywhere in Europe, Russia, Africa, Asia, Australia- after all, Chabad is all over the world! Since she has not told us where she lives, she probably wants it to remain obscure.
America vs Israel is not really part of the equation. Even those who feel that there is a mitzva to live in E”Y today, the chiyuv does not over-ride pikuach nefesh, or parnassa needs, or chinuch needs, etc.
So I think the question here – is it better to have better medical care but be alone or be with family and compromise on medical treatment? Considering that being with loved ones affects one’s health, quality of life and longevity, it is not a simple question.Just want to point out that x-mas is not a “kosher” version of the real name. X is actually the Greek letter chi, which is short for christ, meaning anointed one. So saying christmas or xmas is the same thing, just one is short-hand. Calling Yoshke anointed one is obviously against the Torah. I don’t think JC is any better than the full version, it still gives credence to the moshiach claim. Names such as Chris, Chirstina and the religion known as Christianity are of course all derivatives of the same. and a little known fact- the phrase “gee whiz” or other use of the word “gee” is derived from Yoshka’s name as well.
Zehavasdad- today’s gedolim are very involved in politics, at least in Israel, not by serving in the government, but by choosing and instructing representatives of the chareidi parties.
R’ Ovadya was head of Shas, which was started as per R’ Shach’s recommendations.
Chariedi MKs always consulted with R’ Elyashiv and then R’ Shteinman before they voted. Even non-chareidi MKs and ministers would meet with them.
So the Gadol Hador/leader needs to have a lot of characteristics: Talmid Chochom, exemplary middos, major posek, a person of action, far-reaching insight to make political and hashkafic decisions that affect the klal.
Saying someone is the Gadol Hador does not contradict the fact that there will be communities that follow different gedolim. Sefardim will have their Gadol, American and Israeli Jews will generally each follow the local gedolim, and for chassidim, ultimately the final word is with their Rebbe. But still, all groups will recognize the greatness of the one known as the Gadol Hador.MTAB, calm down. The OP was asking if it is appropriate to go for a walk. E120 gave her (i.e. a girl’s) perspective of how she thought this could be appropriate. Nothing in her comments suggested she was asking to be babied or treated like a spoiled princess.
The purpose of the date is not to check out how pretty the girl is in person, or to have a good time at some exciting place, but to find out about the person’s middos and personality for yourself, to see if you are compatible. So yes, everything that is done or said contributes to that impression. On both sides. There are ways for the guy to see how considerate the girl is also- from what she says, what she does, how she says it. For example, while they are walking, she see that he is getting tired since he had a long, hard day, and asks if he wants to sit for a bit.
yes the dating process as you describe it is unbalanced and the boy has the harder job. But that’s ok- because for the rest of the guy’s life, his wife will be cooking for him, cleaning up after him, picking up his socks from the floor, and maybe she is even working to support him in learning, etc etc. But she is willing to do all that because she knows that he cares about her and is sensitive to her needs.
Alternatively, you can join Joseph’s community and have a couple of sit-ins and leave everything else up to your parents.That’s the point – to find the things in common, to show that among frum Jews-for example, even those coming from a Litvish Israeli community and a Chasidish community in Kiryat Yoel-, we have more that is the same about us than what is different.
By the way, I don’t think it is a good idea for mosdos of any kind to teach hashkafos of other communities- chinuch is not a multiple choice assignment. But exposure, or acknowledgment of the existence of other Torah-valid hashkafos can be done in an informal manner, like through the stories they read, the pictures of kids in their textbooks, etc. Unless you feel “my way is the only way, everything else is the same as Reform and therefore should not be acknowledged at all”, then of course someone who cannot live that way would become not frum- afterall, that’s the message he got his entire life.DY raised an interesting point. How would this man in the OP have preferred the world to be created? What does it mean a world without suffering? Who defines what is suffering? Isn’t that subjective? To give a simple example- a woman suffers during childbirth (actually this is a consequence of Chava’s sin, world was not meant to be this way). Medical data says that labor and the accompanying hormones are good for the baby. So one person’s suffering is another’s good. Or perhaps he means a world where he does not suffer?
No death? well, the world was created without death, but Adam messed that one up.
No illness prior to death? Or old age? That too was part of the original nature of the world, but the avos requested that there should be warning before one dies, hence old age and illness.
No premature death/painful death/murder? Doesn’t that have to do with our actions?
Much of the suffering we go through is because of other people’s actions. That is a consequence of the fact that people have bechira, and Hashem allows them to act through that bechira. So perhaps the man’s problem is why there is bechira to do bad, but that is a different discussion.His arguments are flawed. Suffering does not mean Hashem is cruel, Chas V’shalom, or that the world was supposed to have been created that way. so his conclusion that it must mean there is no G-d, chas v’shalom, is wrong. Methinks he left not for an intellectual reason, but out of emotional pain, and intellectual answers will not make him change his mind.
This is very painful, to think of a world without R’ Shteinman. He represented a continuation of a chain going back to the greats of Europe. He kept the legacy of Rav Shach and Rav Elyashiv alive. I feel triply abandoned now.
Rav Chaim until now, while open to seeing the klal, has generally not been involved in klal issues, running of mosdos, politics, etc. He learns Torah. Period. Neither was R’ Shteinman when he was younger, although he was a Rosh Yeshiva all along, and was very involved in various mosdos. So R’ Chaim, to be the gadol hador in all aspects, as we need, would have to change his hanhaga. I wonder if he will, or perhaps the best for klal yisroel is Rav Chaim’s pure Torah, and someone else should fill the other roles. I would say it is likely to be Rav Edelstein, although there are a number of highly esteemed Roshei Yeshiva.
I wasn’t aware that the menora was different is the 2 batei mikdash, interesting. I know we have an image of the menora from Titus’ Arch, assuming that it is a depiction of The Menora, and not just any menora, And chabad holds that the menora had straight branches, V shaped. But I thought the matter is still up to debate.
The point is not to replicate the menora of either beis hamikdash (an exact replicate is assur, actually) but to light in any vessel that fits the halachic criteria. Either menora you describe does not: the menora in the beis hamikdash had 6 side branches turning toward the middle main branch, for a total of 7. Since we light 8+1 shamash, the chanuka “menora” is obviously different.
MTAB-
No, it is not what’s wrong with shidduchim, it is what is wrong with marriage.
if the guy finds it too much to think about and be sensitive to the girl’s needs, and only thinks about what’s good for him, then maybe he is not ready for marriage.Shlucha, I think you (or your friend) have it confused between what Adam thought Hashem wanted and what Hashem actually wanted.
Hashem created the world to do good, to give all HIs good to his creations. He did not create it so that people should suffer. But to avoid nehama d’chisufa, good that one does not earn and therefore becomes shameful, He set up the mitzvos so that we can earn that good. If one does not do the mitzvos, one does not get the good.
Adam had one mitzva. Adam believed that Hashem actually wanted him to eat from the Etz Hadaas, so that he could achieve an even higher spiritual level, by showing he was willing to sacrifice his life (this idea can be found in the Meshech Chochma) or by doing teshuva. Meaning, Adam thought it was a set-up, so to speak. But that is not what Hashem wanted, and terrible consequences and suffering resulted from his misunderstanding of Hashem’s mitzva. And to this very day we have to be metakein this chet. The suffering that we have today is a consequence of man’s actions, and rationalizations, and not Hashem’s purpose for the world.
Maybe in this lies the answer- as people, we try to rationalize and try to understand what Hashem wants and we fool ourselves to think we understand it all. We need to admit that we are mere mortals, fallible who cannot possibly comprehend Hashem’s plans, and we should not try to apply our logic to Hashem’s Logic, but live the maxim of “tamim tehiyu im Hashem Elokecha” without cheshbonos. Yes, it does boil down to emuna, I can’t see how you can separate it from the answer.A bit of simple genetics lesson may be needed here:
male is XY, the X comes from mother, Y from father. Female is XX, receiving one X from each parent. All other chromosomes undergo recombination and are a mixture/combination of the genes of each parent. Since the Y chromosome only comes from the father, it can be used to trace patrilineal lineage. The X cannot be used since it comes from both parents. Instead, mitochondrial DNA is used, since it is inherited from the mother.What yichisdik is saying is that if one follows mitochondrial DNA, one sees non-semitic traits at a higher percentage than when one follows the Y chromosome. That can be explained by non-Jewish women joining the Jewish gene pool at a higher rate than non-Jewish men. Assuming that they converted k’din, there is no problem with matrilineal descent, mdd1. Academic papers do not care if they did, but I think we can be dan l’kaf zechus that the influx was due to conversion, if there really was such as significant influx.
The second point- if a non-Jew ravaged a Jewish woman, he would be introducing his non-semitic genes – for example eye and skin color- equally to daughters (if he also gives over his X chromosome) or his sons (if he gives over his Y chromosome). Following the Y chromosome would indicate the presence of “foreign” genes, but following the mitochondrial DNA would not show this, even among the daughters who would be inheriting non-semitic traits. For the argument presented above to hold about the purity of the lineages, one would have to conclude that this type of genetic “pollution” was much rarer than female conversion. Perhaps this was true, because the assaulted women were probably also murdered by their assailants, R”L. But it could still be a source of non-semitic traits within the Jewish gene pool, which I think is the point yichusdik was making.
Joseph, I agree with you that these sort of studies should be taken with a grain of salt, but not because of their academic quality (not being a geneticist, I can’t judge), but because they are often over-interpreted by eager laymen and Halacha is not determined by gene analysis. Anyway, most papers these days come out in digital form- theoretically there is a print version, but most people are not reading it. So you have to change your metaphor of “not worth the paper they’re printed on”. 🙂
RebYidd, from what you wrote I understand that you feel it is not right for couples to date in lobbies because they are not guests of the hotel. But if hotels were limiting their lounges to guests, wouldn’t they ask for a room number when you come in or order? Lounges and hotel restaurants make money for the hotel-do you know how much they charge for a coke or bottle of water? Why would they care who is doing the ordering? There are hotels that don’t let you sit unless you order, I don’t think it would be a problem to go there if you are not a guest.
the proper terms for genetic traits would be recessive and dominant, not weaker and stronger.
For skin color, it is not all or none, there are several genes involved in making the pigment melanin, and their expression is incomplete dominance, meaning if you cross white with black you don’t get black, but something in between. There is a wide range of skin color. Environment also affects pigment production- like tanning. It would be interesting to see if Ashkenazim and Mid-eastern Jews had similar skin color genetics, but if environmental factors influenced the actual melanin production.In terms of educating kids about other communities.
Kids tend to think in absolute terms. Too many choices are not helpful- they need to have a strong identity and sense of belonging, pride in who they are, not confusion about different options.
Yet, that does not mean that they should not be aware that there are all types of Jews, with valid approaches to avodas Hashem, even if that approach is not one that is followed in their home/school. For starters, parents should not mock other types, put down other shitos. Also, it can be helpful to read books about other children from other backgrounds, living in different places, with different minhagim. I think it is healthy for a kid to grow up with the attitude, that this is the derech we have chosen to live by, this is the derech of our community, but other communities might have different derachim, and as long as we are all devoted to keeping Mitzvos and being ovdei Hashem, that is fine. Most kids will be happy to stay within their “box” , but for those kids who for some reason don’t fit the box, they will know that there are other legitimate boxes out there that may fit them better, and that their families will not think less of them if they choose a different box.LB, the cloths I use are not towel-like, they are regular cloth, slightly thicker than normal paper towels, soft on both sides even when dry, about as big as a napkin opened up. They’re sold as a whole bunch in a package, in pink, light blue, yellow, orange, white. Makes cleaning more interesting- what color do I get to use to clean the toilet? Then we also have sponga rags, the towel-thick rags that we use to wash the floors. They’re also great for soaking up spills on the floor, or as a parking spot next to the door for muddy/wet boots.
By us, paper towels are expensive, and not very absorbent at all. Long ago, I would bring back American paper towels in whatever spare corners my luggage had. Now, I manage with the local product- but for spills and cleaning, I use these colored rags- they can be washed in the machine and reused. Don’t tear and are very absorbent, even better than Bounty. Do they sell such things in the US?
More on lesschumras’ post: If you follow thru, make sure the caregiver knows first aid and CPR.
My shopping experiences are online, for kids’ clothing, when on sale and when it qualifies for free shipping. I do it to save money. I like Kohls the best – usually have good sales and prices, clothing is good quality. Sometimes I can find the same item for more money at Macys. Bloomies is out of my price range, and I find Macy’s too expensive also. Walmart has great deals- good for things like Pjs and underwear, boys’ polos and shirts, generally their clothing is cheaper but of lower quality. Sometimes I can get good deals at Target, but I find Walmart better. Walmart now has a marketplace like Amazon, which I find annoying because prices can vary and some sellers charge shipping, so I find the larger range in choices not very helpful. Since I order from Israel, usually at the end of a season for the coming year, ship to relatives and then wait for someone who comes to bring them, returning is not really an option. So customer service only comes into play if for some reason an item was not actually delivered. I had that recently with Walmart, they were very nice about it and offered to reship, but the problem was that the item was out of stock, so they refunded my money.
I think they are sending them to your home now, Joesph, – think of it as a return favor for the CTL family taking care of your daughter since Labor Day 🙂
When a story line involves the challenges facing a BT and her growth, chances are pretty high the marriage/dating prior to her becoming frum did not involve a shadchan. But that does not mean that the way it is presented is problematic, the “boyfriend” doesn’t even have to appear in the novel. For example, she can simply be dating someone and be struggling with whether she should break up or not, or perhaps, after she becomes frum and is in “proper” shidduchim, has trouble getting over a past relationship. This type of genre is usually geared towards women, so I am not surprised Joseph by your lack of familiarity with these plots. There are many kosher books out there in which some part of the plot involves someone finding their Bshert.
Online shopping or in store?
Joseph, lots of frum books have married people or people getting married in them. That does not make them romance novels. I think it’s fair to say that marriage is acceptable for a frum home.
let’s keep this discussion general and not about any 1 particular book.
Zahava’s Dad- that comment addressed to me above, I think you meant it for Golfer. I did not post anything about the article or opinions in the OP.
Funny, how I’m being credited with so much more than I actually have done!litvish, a lot of answers to your question can come from learning history- I’ll present some very simplistic generalizations to explain:
when Jews were in a comfortable galus, with lots of materialism, and earned high status among the goyim, who were also cultured, they were more likely to assimilate- that applies to Germany during the enlightenment, and also to Spain during the Inquisition- when faced with the choice of death, expulsion, or conversion, many chose to convert- either truly or in pretense, since it was very hard to give up what they had, and leaving meant a very unsafe, uncertain future. The fate of those who choose expulsion was not pretty. Within a few generations, even those who initially converted in pretense were lost to klal yisroel. After that, Yotzei Sefard did not achieve the sort of status they had in Spain in their new countries, the goyim around them kept them very separate, and were not exactly cultured, which could explain the lack of assimilation. Jews of Eastern Europe who were kept separate from the goyim, who lived lives of severe deprivation and who would never admired the goyim around them, chose to die or flee (when possible) rather than convert. That shifted dramatically in Communist Russia, of course, which may be the most dramatic example of a whole population of Jews losing their Yiddishkeit, except for a few yehidim. So it has nothing to do with ashkenaz vs sefard, but rather with the circumstance of the galus.Interestingly, if you take 2 hypothetical Russian brothers of early 20th century. One stayed in Russia, one left to America. Look at the grandkids or great-grandkids of those brothers- say both made aliya in the 1990s. Standing in line at passport control at the airport, you will definitely be able to tell them apart, even though as cousins, they share some genetic background. Those who grew up in Russia will look Russian, those in America, will no longer have those Russian features. Environment, diet have a lot to say about how we look, as does who the brothers and their children married.
AviK, I was not the one who presented the argument that singing = commitment. If you look back at previous posts, you will see that I was arguing against that very premise, and used Rav Shach not singing as an example, much as you used Rav Soloveitchik. So why are you arguing with me?
Don’t forget the part where the Nazi’s son finds out he is really adopted, and actually a Jew whom the Nazi kidnapped from his parents before he murdered them. Now he can marry the Jewish girl who is becoming frum and wanted to break up with him because he was not Jewish. And the pair of Yeshiva Bochurim who figure everything out, foil the plot and save the world from destruction, all bein hasedarim.
I was thinking of that very story Joseph. To me the story proves that emotions are also important, and not that someone who does not sing hertzig (is that how you spell it?) niggunim is not a “committed” frum person, or else you would be drawing a very negative conclusion about Rav Shach, chas v’shalom.
Oshriv, to add to your corrections:
gage- I think you meant gauge
poors-I think you meant the verb poursSong is not the only measure of commitment to Yiddishkeit, nor would I assume it is the best, although it is one way that a Neshama can express itself. But just because music does not “speak” to someone, does not mean he is not spiritual. And not everyone with a guitar and emotional music is a tzaddik, even if those songs become popular.
Neville, I can’t predict miracles and am far from an expert on hashkafa- these are deep questions. I don’t believe that miracles are exclusively for Israeli Jews, or better stated, Jews who live in E”Y. Obviously, there are many examples throughout history of Jewish communities over the world that did not receive miraculous reprieves, as well as many examples of hashgacha pratis when individuals and communities were saved. Have you heard stories of 9/11 of Jews who should have been at work by 9 AM but were not- because of slichos, problems with trains, a kid who forgot his homework, etc? And the reverse is true as well- people suffer in E”Y, disasters have occurred, and not just during the 2 chorbonos.
How do I reconcile this? Am Yisroel, who unlike the 70 nations were never put under the influence of the mazalos, have direct hashgacha from Hashem. This is dependent on our actions, and when we are not deserving there is hester panim, and we are vulnerable to the bad around us. There can be exceptions for worthy individuals, and when Hashem acts towards us B’rachamim and protects us even when we are not deserving. E”Y was similarly put under the direct Hashgacha of Hashem. So a Jew who is living in E”Y has a double level of Hashgacha, or in other words, is in the optimal place to receive that Hashgacha. Our sins are a barrier to the Hashgacha coming through at all times, but there is still a greater potential for it for a Jew in E”Y.
Does this make sense?Do you get back the deposited check and can you see if someone added in the “hundred”? Would you normally write eighteen hundred, as opposed to one thousand, eight hundred?
Spreadthetruth. You don’t have to accept the concept of l’malah min hateva. Everyone has to live according to their level of emuna and do the appropriate hishtadlus. But you should not say that there is no such thing for other people who are on a different level of emuna/living on a different plane.
And for some more anecdotal evidence, try reading “Einei Hashem” by Dr. Meir Wikler. It won’t prove a thing to you, but it has some good stories.BY the way, Slonimer, to continue one point from earlier on in the discussion re the Scuds and the Gulf War, which further digging into Wikipedia revealed:
46 Scuds were launched at SA, 10 caused significant damage, with a total of 29 dead (all but 1 US soldiers in that army barracks). I assume that the many misses can be attributed to the size of SA, and that it’s mostly desert.
42 Scuds were sent at Israel, 4 of those landed in the West Bank. As far as I remember, many were sent at the greater Tel Aviv area, a highly populous region. Wiki confirms that thousands of homes and apartments were damaged- so the missiles did hit their mark (or at least the debris of missiles intercepted by Patriots, which was just as dangerous). Yet only 2 direct deaths (the other site I quoted before said 1). Why? There are so many stories of people who should have been home, but weren’t, those who normally stayed in the sealed room, only to decide at the last moment to go to the miklat, or vice-versa, and thus were saved from a missile hit. Logic said that Israel was a dangerous place to be at that time, yet those who lived there were zoche to tremendous nissim.AviK, you misunderstood me, or missed the next sentence- galus is not a blessing in itself, the fact that Hashem spread us out the way He did when he sent us into Galus was a “blessing” within the punishment, since it helped to preserve us, the galus just as easily could have been that we all were sent to Rome and stayed put there. The same way that Chazal say that the churban Beis Hamikdash had its benefits- because He took out his wrath on stone and wood instead of destroying Am Yisroel, which is what we really deserved. Obviously we rather neither happen, but Hashem “cushioned” the blow, so to speak in the manner that it was done.
Slonimer, of course you realize that these places are technically off-limits to Jews, so no one can argue that Jews should live there. Your argument would have been stronger had you suggested places like Hevron, Sderot and the many small yishuvim surrounded by Arab towns, which I personally would not live in, but many people do. You will say that I am hypocritical about my belief in Hashem’s Hashgacha. I don’t think that what I said about Eretz Yisroel in general contradicts the idea that there are some place that are safer than others, or that we are not exempt from hishtadlus just because we are in E”Y. You still can’t say, I will cross the street without looking since Hashem watches over E”Y. I think it is a scale of hishtadlus vs relying on Hashagacha. You need more hishtadlus to achieve the same level of “safety” outside of E”Y than you do within. Safety within E”Y will still vary, but since there are different rules in E”Y, you can’t measure it with the same yard-stick. I’m not sure if I am explaining it well.
Back to military- take a look at other recent threads to remind yourself that de facto, there is not a universal draft, at least not at the moment. No one (until your recent post) has forwarded the position here that one should not live in E”Y because he will have to go to the army and that is very risky, which is why I did not present any counter-arguments to that. I would agree, that if you don’t want to go to the army or learn full time to get an exemption, or don’t want either of those options for your kids when they become of age, then it is not a good idea at this time to make aliya. But there are ways to live here as a non-citizen and not have to go the army. So it does not have to be a man-on-the-street concern for an American Chareidi moving to Israel, (Disclaimer: this very non-PC statement is not meant to underestimate the real dangers facing those who do serve or a lack of appreciation for their sacrifices, those of you here who have served or have children who have/will serve can carry on the discussion from your point of view.)
I think you summarized it nicely with the teva-vs-nissim statement above. When it comes to so many issues, whether safety, financial, etc, E”Y seems to operate l’maale min hateva. Hard to apply logic and statistics to that. Those who can accept that, can live in E”Y successfully. Those who have a hard time with that, will find everything wrong.Slonimer:
The grave digging I’m pretty sure I read in a book called “Six Days of War”, by MIchael Oren. Flipping thru the pages, I found a reference to the digging of 10,000 graves (pg 136), but I couldn’t find the park part- but i do remember reading it since it was quite a dramatic description.
I didn’t say that Rommel entering Palestine was a foregone conclusion to the British, but that was the general perception at the time, something I have come across in reading stories about the time (I don’t remember the source, perhaps it was “Echoes of Yesteryear” a diary by Ayala Rottenberg who lived in E”Y during that time) that the Yidden in E”Y were terrified that they would be the next victims.
I used 1 specific year -2001- to prove that it could happen in the US, not that it is reflective of what happens all the time, but to show that there is no guarantee that America is as safe as people feel it is.
I didn’t count Israeli military casualties since the discussion was about what the person on the street feels, safety of the citizens.
I couldn’t care less that the secular claim Israel is a safe haven for the Jews. I am basing my feelings on what our mesorah tells us about E”Y and Hashem’s Hashgacha. Again, people shouldn’t negate Eretz Yisroel because of Medinat YIsroel.
Yes, I realize the fallacy in comparing Israel to Eastern Europe in terms of size. Although a large nuclear attack or coordinated attacks could obviously wipe out an area much larger than Israel. And it took Hitler just a few years to annihilate the Jews in that much larger area, with little escape possible. So geography is not necessarily a protection.Additional points:
1. There is a concept that being sent into Galus was a Bracho in disguise- that Hashem davka spread us out so that when Jews are attacked in one place, they will find haven in another. So perhaps it is fool-hardy to have such a large concentration of Jews in 1 place. By the way, there were close to 7 million Jews living in Eastern Europe, and another 2.5 million in Western/Central Europe prior to WWII, out of 15 million worldwide. While there were many reasons to leave Europe, no one suggested that Jews should leave because they had reached a dangerous critical mass. And let’s say they had read the hand-writing on the wall and left in millions for England and the Americas (ignoring the fact that these countries would not have taken them). Hitler had plans to conquer the world – he had maps showing how many Jews there were in the US and worldwide. Is it so ludicrous to imagine that had Hashem willed it, and 6 million needed to die, he could have conquered England and America too?2. Yes, E”Y was destroyed twice and Jews suffered enormously during both chorbonos. Yet, the Neviim foretold of only 2 chorbonos, and then we would return to our land. It seems that Gog uMagog will involve E”Y- perhaps we are experiencing it already. Chevlei Mashiach prior to the geula. But Gog uMagog will involve the whole world- and ultimately E”Y will be saved. I rather be here when it happens. I hope those that are saying that E”Y is an “eretz ocheles yoshveha” will be able to join us in the end too.
A few points worth mentioning, I’ll spread them out in a few posts:
Let’s separate Medinat Yisroel from Eretz Yisroel. Do you think that Hashem loves His Land any less because of Zionism and because it is currently run by a secular government? There are numerous chazal and pesukim in Navi that describe how there is a special Hashgacha Pratis in Eretz Yisroel, how the shefa that comes to all the world is first channeled through Eretz Yisroel. Did that all suddenly stop in 1948? Does the fact that people who don’t know Torah hi-jacked the concept of living in E”Y take away from its inherent value? There is so much brocho here. We see nissim here all the time-in everyday events and in the big picture too. Spreadthetruth talked about “common sense and a basic understanding of how the world works”- the thing is, E”Y works differently than everywhere else.
Some examples: People mentioned Rommel during WWII. It was a foregone conclusion that Rommel would conquer Palestine just as he conquered North Africa, just as community after community fell to the Nazis in Europe- by all logic and rational understanding what was to stop him? Only Hashem.
In June 1967, with Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and more, armed with all the might of Russia behind them, threatening Israel with another Holocaust, the government ordered thousands of body bags and started digging graves in the parks. All logic dictated that this would be the end. And Hashem did open miracles, and the Jews of E”Y were once again saved.
The Gulf War- 39 Scuds missles were shot at Israel, how many were killed? Exactly 1. And in case you think the Scuds were duds, look what damage one Scud did to an American army base in Saudi Arabia- 28 died, close to 100 wounded. At that rate, there should have been over 1000 Israeli victims.
Today, how many terrorist plots are foiled, how many times the number of victims should have been much greater. For example, 1 day of terrorism in NYC left 2,700 dead, including 119 confirmed Jews (source: BBC article debunking conspiracy theories of 9/11). In all of 2001, 159 Israelis died of terrorist attacks (source: wikipedia, list of Israeli civilian casualties of second Intifada; I counted up each event quickly by hand, so may have miscalculated.) Out of the 5 million Jews living in Israel at the time, that comes to 0.0032%. Wikipedia has 1.4 million Jews in NYC in 2002, so that comes to 0.0085%, or 2.6 fold more Jews died of terrorism in 1 day in NYC than in Israel in an entire year. Even if you calculate the 9/11 victims in terms of total Jews in the US (about 4 million, depending how people define being Jewish), it comes out to 0.003%, basically the same in 1 day in the US as a whole year in Israel. You can argue, but 9/11 was a one-time event, a statistical anomaly. Perhaps, but it is a wake-up call that challenges the thought that it is safer in the US, since that can all change in just 1 day. Al tiftach peh l’satan.
Yes, Jews die in E”Y, but that is because we are still in Galus, and if we weren’t dying here, we would be dying in whatever other country we were concentrated in.