WinnieThePooh

lilmod, whatever age Americans go to seminary, it is still a year they are not dating when their Israeli equivalents who are “home” can start.

In E”Y there are many different hashgachos, and different people often eat different ones. It may have nothing to do with trusting the other’s kashrus or not. I have seen people attach a note to homemade items indicating what hechsherim the ingredients had. Many people make sure to use only eida chareidis ingredients when cooking/baking for others- whether it is for MM, a party in gan or siyum in cheder, or a neighbor’s kiddush, since most people hold by Eida.

Lilmod, I have a very different view of the shidduch situation in EY than you do, apparently. I do not agree that girls in the US get married younger- afterall, at 18-19 they go to EY for seminary and don’t start dating until sometime the year they come back. In EY, even though there are 3 more years of seminary/maslulim, plenty of girls get married during those years, and some even in 12th grade. At least that is how it used to be. If you see girls getting married later, it is exactly what I am talking about- it is not by choice, but because it is harder to get a shidduch these days.

Ths shidduch “crisis” in American and in Israel are due to different reasons.

The economy is better in Israel. True. That means the upper class has more money and the shekel is strong. Kollel families and people working at low paying jobs (such as teachers, rebbes, etc) have missed out on that boom. Have you noticed how basics like food and housing have skyrocketed recently? Did you hear about the cottage cheese protests? And child benefits and other government programs have been cut? It has gotten very expensive to live in E”Y. Many people, like Assurnet cannot afford to buy apartments unless somehow their parents do it for them.

Yes, it is more acceptable for the boy’s side to offer part of the cost of the apt, and for the couple to take on some of the cost as well. But assuming that each family has both boys and girls to marry off, the fact that they may pay less for their daughters’ apt is off-set by the fact that they are paying more for their sons’ apts. Chareidim who go out to work are not doing it at the age they are dating, so that does not affect apt buying. When they do go out to work, it is so that they can feed their large families. They are not getting the high paying hi-tech jobs, and there is very little leftover for buying apartments. If they have left the yeshiva world to work at a young age, which also means they have to go to the army, then that puts them in a very different category for dating and they are not asking for apartments.

And again, there is a very strong hierarchy in the shidduch scene among boys. The top yeshivas insist that their bochurim are worth “sidur malen”- meaning the price of a full apartment. The best bochurim will ask for an apt in the merkaz or yeushalayim. Second tier boys get full cost of apt in periphery. Third tier, get 70% of apt, etc. It is quite sick how the boys are marketed in this way, but this is how it is. You can protest and say you do not agree to such a system, but then you or your daughter will not get shidduchim. Now say you are a “great” girl, and want a really good boy from a good yeshiva with a strong potential in learning. but you can’t afford the full cost of an apt. that means you can only date the third tier boys, who might not be appropriate. so the years pass. Maybe by then the boy who is already older will settle for less of an apt, or the girl will settle for a boy she would not have considered at a younger age. So what it boils down to, is that money becomes the most important factor in determining the shidduch, rather than compatibility, shared goals, etc.

Perhaps at some point the whole system will crash and priorities will be re-evaluated (hopefully by the time my kids reach shidduchim), but in the mean time this is out it is.

Lilmod, I don’t think the shidduch situation in E”Y is as bad as in the US, but it is definitely problematic. I don’t have any statistics, but I hear this over and over from girls in shidduchim or from parents of the girls. Don’t forget that girls traditionally get married younger in E”Y. It used to be perfectly normal that by 20-21, almost all of the class was married or at least engaged. Now, there are a lot of girls in low-mid twenties that are still single. I”YH they will get married, but maybe not to the high caliber boy they would have wanted, because they realize they cannot afford him, or maybe their parents become more desperate when they see their daughter’s pain and promise things they would not/could not have earlier on. What has changed is that apartments have gotten so much more expensive- not too long ago you could go a bit farther out and get an apartment for cheap, or buy on paper (see above comment). there is a huge housing shortage and that is reflected in the rising prices.

Hey, 5ish, are you related to the Fiveish of Oorah fame?

wait a minute, I made a mistake- I confused modasty with stardust! (thanks shopping for jogging my memory) It’s the stardust ones that I like…I never actually bought Modasty. so don’t go putting the Modasty one in the dryer yet, I don’t know if it will last.

Keep us posted, LB. Now that we don’t have to worry about Lilmod’s purple toe, we have your leg to worry about.

I also like Modasty shells – even better than Kiki Riki. They are soft, don’t cling, wash well, can even survive the dryer.

Might be easier to find tznius clothing, unless you live in a highly frum area in the US, but not necessarily cheaper.

It’s funny, because so many people I know who have a chance to go to the US or have people coming from the US, do their shopping there!

ema2five, yes it is sad and unfair that the boys call the shots.

But this is reality. Picture a good learning boy with say 40 shidduch resumes in front of him. They are all just a bunch of names, all quality girls. i How is he (or his mother) to decide whom to date? Practically it is easier for him to date locally and those from similar backgrounds who he will feel more comfortable with, so those will get pushed to the top of the list. It’s not necessarily coming from a lack of derech eretz, but more from the overwhelming number of choices there are for the bochur. This makes it very hard for the OOTers and those from different backgrounds, unless there is a personal connection- say a close relative who really knows both sides recommends it, i.e. protektzia.

You were asking Lilmod, but I think I can answer you too.

I know many women who came from more modern backgrounds who married learning boys. And also boys who came from modern backgrounds and then went into learning etc.

I think in order to do that, if you don’t fit the BY mold until now then you have to change that mold now. That might mean moving out of your modern community and moving to a more yeshivish community. Some girls do that by going to learn in E”Y, and then staying on. Others move to a more yeshivish community in the NY area, for example, Passaic. Then you can start to network- people will get to know you, you will get more familiar with the kollel lifestyle, you will have more shidduch opportunities as the people that you know will be more likely to know the kind of person you want to marry, and serve as shidduch references for you, etc. Think about it from the boy’s perspective- what would make a yeshivish guy who wants to learn full time want to go out with you, when he has lots of BY girls to choose from? Do your best to make yourself part of that world, and then your less than typical background won’t be the defining part of you.

LU, if my answer was harsh don’t take it personally, it’s because this is very important, and sometimes when it comes to safety, people laugh it off and think “oh, they’re just being over-protective, nothing will actually happen if I do X…”

The recommendations are not all that new- the blanket one has been around for more than a decade for sure. The no bumper rule is a new one- I think the stores will stop selling those adorable crib sets- but when my oldest was a newborn, I already knew that is was risky and bought breathable mesh-like bumpers instead of the padded kind.

I believe it does have to do with smothering- a baby can end up with his face pushed into a padded bumper or pillow or stuffed animal and not be able to realize he cannot breathe and extricate himself.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that SIDS would be when a baby stops breathing for some unknown reason. Having a blanket obstruct his breathing Chas v’shalom is a known reason. Being overheated is a risk factor for SIDS though, so maybe that was the connection between blanket and SIDS.

So save the tallis for wrapping up the kids at his upsherin.

PSA- it seems a lot of CRes are not up-to-date on current baby safety recommendations.

Nothing- emphasis- nothing- should be put inside a baby’s crib except the baby.

That means- no blankets, no pillows, no stuffed animals, no padded bumpers (this is a new one). The same would apply with draping these items over a crib, since they can easily fall or be pulled inside.

So Tallis is no worse or better than any blanket and it is quite dangerous to drape one over a crib!

To keep a baby warm, use a blanket sleeper or specially designed swaddling blanket that stays wrapped around the baby in place.

Today’s regulation standard cribs have slats that are close enough together so that baby’s head cannot fit thru, so there is no need for a bumper to prevent a baby’s head from getting stuck.

If you think that this advice is extreme, I can tell you about a child who is permanently disabled and institutionalized because someone draped a coat over her carriage and it fell inside and smothered her.

Better to state it in advance so people are not put on the spot. But will your manager go around and tell all the clients? You probably will still end up facing someone with his hands out. If you feel uncomfortable having to tell someone in that situation, then walk around with a pack of tissues, sniffling and holding the tissues in your right hand. No one will offer you a handshake then.

For sure, Golfer, this behavior/shita becomes more important in certain times and places, less so in others. Ein Chadash tachas hashemesh.

Ub- a response to your response (quoting and requoting is going to get too confusing)

I am glad that you feel that my basic description of chareidim applies to most frum Jews- it is so encouraging that keeping halacha without compromise, valuing limud hatorah, and listening to rabbanim is the default!

Here’s my theory: What distinguishes among what I call chareidi and other types is what else the community values, and what is the order of priority among these values. I believe that for chareidim, limud hatorah trumps all. The isolationism and aversion of secular knowledge that, as you put it, are unique to chareidim, are not priorities in themselves but rather a very important means of preserving the core values listed above in today’s world.

If however, you add the mitzva of yishuv eretz yisroel and defending it high up on my original list, you get another type of frum Jew. Add being a positive part of society and combining Torah with secular knowledge, and you get another type. Emphasis on kedusha and avoda, with a Rebbe as a means to achieve these, and you get yet a third type. Sorry if this is a bit simplistic, but I think it can resolve some of the arguments going around here about this issue.

oh, thanks guys (blushing). Some of that was learned the hard way…

Mishpacha magazine had an article about her not so long ago.

As we learned from the last thread on this topic, everyone has a different definition of what being chareidi is.

Back to the OP- if by chareidi the person meant a strong adherence to halacha, keeping mitzvos without compromise, emphasis on learning Torah and emunas chachamim, then those things have always defined frum people from Sinai and had nothing to do with the haskala.

If he was referring to some aspects of chareidi lifestyle, like isolationism, type of dress, keeping out secular influences, whether in education or other forms, then he may be correct. These aspects did develop as a response to changing times- afterall, pre- enlightenment times it was not necessary for such policies to be made when frum Jews lived in isolated shtetels, when the general goyish population was ignorant and illiterate and their lifestyle not particularly enticing, and those who went “OTD” shmaded themselves and left the community altogether.

LB I am glad that you explained yourself and your questions. You are looking for truth, and I think since it would not be practical to run to a LOR with every single question that you have on what you hear/learn, it is good to use the CR as sounding board to know which questions are fit for the Rav. I also think that you are already picking up on what might not be legitimate/normative, and that is why you are asking about those particular things.

I always thought it was hard for BTs to give up their old lifetsyles and take on a Torahdik lifestyle. I never appreciated though until I met you, LB, just how hard it is to figure out what the new lifestyle should be! When I saw your question or something like it, I was able to put it within a context of whatever I have seen or learned in my frum life, and also compare it to other frum lifestyles I have been exposed to, and instinctively know whether this is normal to the general population or some specific group, or extreme or just plain wrong. For a BT, that is so much harder to do.

I also understand how important yeshivos/seminaries for BTs are- they provide the basic foundation of what is Torah-true hashkafa, halacha, and provide role models for normative frum living. The teachers know what to say, how much to say and when to say it, and I think I am learning now, even more importantly, what not to say. It is so much harder to get that grounding from a hodge-podge of shiurim, whether online or real, no matter who is giving the shiur.

LB, may you continue to grow and question and find your direction!

Actually, the title of this thread suggests that it is the internet that needs protecting from your kids.

Na, she takes this site way too seriously to ever mock it.

But I think that Shopping’s teacher would fit right in here- great sense of humor and great at passing judgement on other people’s opinions. Isn’t that done all the time here?

Perhaps this person was advocating shemiras eynayim even for babies, hence avoiding wet nurses other than his own mother (or advocating bottle feeding altogether?) and covering up his crib lest he see the outside world or preventing him from hearing certain types of music. This sounds pretty extreme from a halachic point of view. Afterall, in Judaism, babies are born with pure neshamos and do not sin. Children are considered pure and sinless and are not held accountable until bar/bas mitzva. Halacha dictates at what age boys and girls are obligated in following the laws of tznius.

Never ever cover up the baby’s crib with anything. segulos are not meant to promote SIDS.

Actually, after thinking about this thread, I realized that my kids have never actually met a live tiger in the wild, and they only know what one looks like from pictures and maybe the zoo. Most people don’t encounter wild animals, whether extinct or not, so the OP’s question can apply to many animals even today.