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Max well
Its really quite simple. The jewish stores carry the not so Tznius designs, the women buy it because hey its a Jewish store it must be ok…our wives, sisters and daughters see their friends wearing the stuff from these stores and they look good so they want too look good too. Theres a lot of clothing peer pressure amongst women. The stores dont want to stop selling these types of clothing because they make a lot of money its a huge business. If the stores sell it the women buy it. If other women buy out our women will buy it too. Its a vicious cycle that keeps repeating itself.
Aura
Without doing an official study it is hard to know hwat percentage of FFBs discriminate against BTs and what percentage of BTs get discriminated against. There is some discrimination by shidduchim, however if you will speak to Rabbis who know about the BT movements and Kiruv they will tell you that for shidduchim a BT should marry a BT because they will understand each other better. In this day and age there are enough BTs in either gender for them to find shidduchim.
There are many BTs out there that people dont even know that they are BTs. My advice to any BT is try not to stick out. I know the FFB world is very different than the world that a BT is used to and when they try to mainstream themselves they have many challenges. Just try your best to experience as much as you can. Daven in different types of shuls and try to meet Jews from different communities and try to speak to as many FFBs as you can so you get a better idea about the different types of Jews and the various things that go on in the Jewish world. Dont allow yourself to be an outsider.
Wolf:
“But if you have to enforce halacha observance in your household, then your household is in serious trouble.”
It depends. There are times that your wife and kids do something wrong due to lack of knowledge/education. However the basics shouldnt require enforcement. If your 10 year old hild is opening lights on Shabbos you have a problem. If your wife doesnt know “on her own” to shop for Tzniusdik clothing you have a very big problem.
What bothers me is why are “frum” clothing stores selling this shmutz to our women. Not that I believe in over policing things but let all the concert ban Rabbis be busy with the real problems. Let them talk to the store owners and ban their stores if they dont listen.
Rebbitzen,
Take it up with the Mods. I agree that its not appropriate.
The mods have nothing to do with YWN radio. -77
Philosopher:
I think that something needs to be cleared up. I believe we need to define respect.
Respect is a concept called Kovod Habriyos. A Jew has to have respect for all human
beings including non Jews. Every human is a Tzelem Elokim. We were all formed in the image of G-d. Therefore there is an obligation to respect the G-dliness residing in all humans. There are countless stories of Gedolim who went out of their way to be nice and friendly and even to do favors and give of their time and advice to their non Jewish neighbors.
A Yid deserves even more than that just for the fact that he’s or she’s a Jew and your brother/sister.
There’s a higher respect which is generally reserved for ones boss or someone who is higher up then them or of greater stature like a Rabbi.
I’m not sure how you define respect or what respect you are actually talking of however one thing is clear, any Jew even an OTD Jew needs to be treated respectfully. You may not disrespect, make a disapproving face, embarass, talk down to, hurt or even THINK badly about another Jew. If you feel like interacting, you give a smile and say hello and treat them like anyone else. You can disapprove of what they do but you can’t and are not allowed to judge them they sense it right away and all you have done is push them away. When interacting and doing Kiruv one has to exhibit lots of love and acceptance. If you aren’t sincere then don’t bother you will do more harm than good.
Philosopher:
I don’t know if parents were better in the past but I do know that it is much more challenging today because kids are worse. Kids are way different because the world is way different. Chutzpah is out of hand…I often see teenage kids publicly act chutzpahdik…its much harder to bring up a kid today. If you don’t believe me ask your parents and grandparents.
I’m not talking about purposely abusing their kids. However, how many parents push their kids too hard or hold them to unrealistic expectations, or are very negative because they think the kid will try harder from criticism or fail to compliment their kids accomplishments…? These all lead to an emotionally unhealthy child and eventually unhealthy adult.
If you haven’t read chinuch books or heard shiurim on Chinuch its highly likely you are making big mistakes not even realizing it.
Philosopher:
Many parents damage a kid because they mean well and have NO CLUE how to “parent” a child. Todays kids grow up in so different a world than their parents did and most parents have no clue how to relate. I think it should be a requirement that all parents go to parenting classes. Or at least read a few chinuch books but stay current. I lknow many parents that have no clue. Including my own. They thought they were doing the right thing but generally, good parenting advice is very counterintuitive. Usually whatever your instinct or reflex response to a situation is, its wrong. I wish something can be done. Parents are destroying kids left and right while acting out of “love.”
Wolf:
I agree. Its a bad sign.
Max well:
Many OTD kids are due to parents who are unloving, too demanding and the like. There’s a concept in Mishlei from Shlomo Hamelech Chanoch Lanaar al Pi darko. If you have a sensitive kid and you constantly put him/her down and speak to him/her negatively its a virtual guarantee that the child will have very low self esteem and will have issues with religion and likely go OTD or tread very close. Parents don’t OWN their kids. Their children are a matanah from Hashem or rather a Pikadon. If you mistreat your kid there will be hell to pay no pun intended. You as a parent are responsible if the kid goes off the derech and all his averos will be on your cheshbon.
Maybe she means Orthodox?
Maxwell the Torah is not black and white. There is actually a lot of gray areas and room for “safek.” One has to be well familiar with all the gedarim of mezid as well as the exact nature mindframe understanding and circumstances of the person acting before one can brand “mezid” and the like.
Maxwell its not so simple at all.
Mod 80
We are talking about the Churban Bais Hamikdosh here and the 2000 years of painful golus. What does it say about us if for 3 weeks we can’t go without music. We need “Heteirim” to listen to music? The fact that we can’t go 3 weeks without music during the time of Aveilus for the Bais Hamikdosh is truly something we should be crying and saying kinnos over.
The point is if its beyond their behira its not bemezid. Besides, Bmezid means that the person is doing it on purpose to anger Hashem. Meaning, they understand what it means to not sin against Hashem and they know the consequences and are doing it anyways. Meaning, having a strong Emunah and STILL sinning with the intention of angering Hashem. That’s Bemayzid.
Most OTD kids are clueless in their yiddishkeit and never had a strong foundation in Emunah and what Yiddishkeit is all about. You see we have read Rabbi Kaplans works and all that. They have not. Understanding this it should be clear that hey act out from a place of pain and hurt they have no real clue what they are doing. You can’t act out against Hashem when you don’t really know who what He is…That’s NOT Bemayzid at all.
Philosopher:
Ill try to be Bekitzur. Without Behira one couldn’t grow but at the same time Behira is not the same for everyone. Its all about where you are holding in your personal avodas Hashem. So technically for some people Molesting “may” be beyond their Behira. Its very important to understand that Behira is something between us and Hashem. Meaning, we have no idea what Behira a person is holding at. That is part of the reason we can’t judge people. You don’t know where they were holding yesterday or a month ago. People are always changing. Either growing or chas veshalom moving backwards in their avodas Hashem. So with this in mind its fully possible for someone to be mechallel shabbos and its beyond their current Behira. Maybe last month the person was eating ham for lunch every day and now they stopped but they still have a hard time with Shabbos and may not be ready for Shabbos. Its beyond their current Behira.
For those who think that the men should be telling their wives and and daughters to dress Tznius what happens when the husband asks the wife and she fifes him uhn ie. doesn’t listen or gets all defensive. I hate to say this but clothing is a big deal for women and looking good becomes a part of their identity sometimes too much I don’t think most wives would be receptive to the husbands meddling in how they dress. I think the best chance a man has is to say something right away the first time he sees something out of line. If he waits a few months until it has become habitual to dress this way he has very little chance that he will be listened to. This is my opinion feel free to disagree.
Philosopher:
I’m not sure if this was mentioned, but Rav Dessler discusses Behirah in depth and he develops a concept called the Behira point. Meaning anything above it is too difficult and anything below is too easy so the only place a person is challenged is at that Behira point. If the choice the person makes is not at their Behira point its not a Behira decision. If I chose chocolate ice cream over vanilla that is NOT Behira. If someone from a normal background chose not to kill someone that’s below his behira point so its NOT Behira. If someone chose to speak Avak Loshon Hara most likely its above ones Behira point so that’s NOT Behira. For some of these OTD kids it is certainly possible that going off was above their Behira point. I’m not saying always or even most of the time but there is ample room for such a possibility. I would say that certain extreme factors remove a persons Behira or severely impact the Behira point. If a child is physically, sexually or even emotionally abused by his Rebbi, teacher, parent, relative…how can he take the religion seriously? He figures of authority especially religious authority such as Rabbeim making a mockery of Judaism by abusing him. He(or she) can’t possibly take the religion seriously when it is so undermined by one in authority. Additionally, the child will associate the hurt with Rabbi meaning Judaism means abuse. The only logical and safe thing for him to do is run away from the religion. So technically leaving Yiddishkeit is not Behira for them. They had no choice.
aries2756:
I dont know what you are talking about. We dont put a lot on women. What exactly do we put on women and what do we not do that we have to “come up to the plate” about? Who goes around telling women what they should do “all the time.” Is it really too much to ask of them not to dress untznius? Last time I checked a guy has a lot more mitzvos to do. We arent telling them to dress like Rebbetzins but cover the essentials and dont wear clothing that skin tight. The situation with uncovered knees and then some and high slits and super tight clothing is just out of hand and has no place by a frum girl.
What kind of chinuch will these girls be passing on to their children? Oh its ok to bend the rules when its convenient for you to do so? Thats not Judaism.
There are certainly issues in certain bungalow colonies where the womens dress codes relax and people generally act in ways that they wouldnt in the city. Its a problem.It is up to the people to make strict rules because without gedarim all kinds of things can happen.
apushatayid:
Now its fathers and husbands problems?
Shouldnt it be the mothers and girls problem? Does a boy need someone standing over his head telling him put on tefillin today, make sure you daven, make sure you learn…yet girls need someone on their head about Tznius or else they wont do it? Wheres their own motivation to do whats right?
aries2756:
I appreciate that you have experience with children at risk. However you must understand that the Torah is unchanging and if Hashem said that a 13 year old biy is old enough and mature enough to be chayiv meesah for doing chillul Shabbos….then that doesnt change ever. You think Hashem didnt know about this generation?! You have to be careful what you are saying. Its our obligation to teach the children responsibility. Of course there are different responsibilities.
A 13 year old has to be responsible enough to keep the Torah. However I wouldnt trust him with a credit card because he lacks maturity and knowledge of a value of money. However maybe thats a problem with us not educating our kids to be responsible with money.
13 years old is not a baby. Dont try to make 13 year olds into helpless immature fools.
aries2756:
The Toarh holds boys and girls responsible at age 12?13 because they are Hormonal. Are you serious??!!!!! Thats the most absurd thing I have heard in a very long time. The fact is that the Torah understand that at age 13 a boy should be mature enough to take on the responsibilities of the Torah and if brought up in a Torah home with a good chinuch he will be prepared to meet the challenges facing him. The Torah is not going to put a person into a lions den and say ok now find your way to safety. At 13 you are responsible for yourself. Until recently a 13 year old was mature. In pre ww2 Europe 13 year olds were already working and many of them had responsibilities that some adults today cant even handle. The world used to be very different. People didnt spoil themselves and their kids back then. Today people are lazy and dont want to work. We like a nice 9-5 day and that is too much for some of us and we need 1 hour lunch breaks and coffee breaks and stam waste time at work…Theres no more work ethic. My grandfather told me that when he was 12 or 13 he used to be at yeshivah at 5 in the morning. And sat and learned for a few hours straight. Today the Rosh hayeshivah would be arrested for child abuse…Its a different world today. So technically a 13 year old boy and 12 year old girl should be mature enough to accept the Ol Mitzvos at that age. However due to the way they were brought up many if not most are just ill equipped for the challenges that face them. Maybe we need to stop babying ourselves and our children. We have become lazy and complacent.
SJSinNYC:
Many people who “argue with the proofs” dont want an answer. Theres a famous story with Rav Chaim Brisker where a maskil or some yid who had gone off the derech came to him and said I have questions on yiddishkeit. He said, “if you really have questions Ill be glad to answer them, but I dont think you have questions you have teirutzim, you have answers or excuses to why you want to live the life you live and these questions are your excuse for living a non religious life.”
Many people know that the answers to the questions are out there. Torah is emes and all is contained therein. The problem is they want to live a life full of Tayvah and disconnected from Hashem and their conscience requires an “excuse” so they conjure up some lame questions.
Theres a great Kotzker vort. He used to say “Where is G-d?” “Wherever we let Him in!”
These people dont want to let G-d in because it interferes with the freedom that they desire. Realize that at the root of many people that leave religion, any religion is Tayvos. Religion stifles your Tayvos and doesnt let you pursue all the wonderful (and might I add perverse) pleasures of this world. However if someone would ask why arent you religious? A person will not feel comfortable saying “my Yetzer Horah has me wrapped around his finger and I just cant stop doing, eating, looking at whatever…”you get the point so they say “oh I have questions.” This even makes them sound insightful and philosophical which is all baloney. Most of them dont have questions they just want freedom.
yitayningwut:
Im not sure which books you have read but many that have been written by Kiruv professionals were done after doing plenty of research into current science. A great book is Search Judaism by Rabbi Yitzchok Fingerer. He brings plenty of scientific proofs and he references everything. I think you’d like the book. I recently started it and im still in the beginning chapters but I must give credit where it is due. Its a very well researched and well written book so far.
njgirl:
What exactly is a role model in tznius and what will that help? Dont the Rebbetzins dress tnius? Yet no girl wants to go dressed like a Rebbetzin. What good is a tnius role model if in actually nobody will actually dress as she does or as she recommends?
I understand that its a huge nisayon but at the same time it is truly out of hand. There are so many girls and young marrieds (as well as many middle aged who think they are still 20) today who dont or just barely cover their knees and wear very tight clothing. I really dont know what the bais yakovs and seminaries are priding themselves about if the one thing that a girl has to do they arent doing? Let them learn less Rambans and spend more time on Tznius. Obviously the Tznius message is lost on the girls.
12 | HAlAchicAllY SpeAKiNg by Rabbi Moshe David Lebovits
Copyright Issues
live at home. However, once a child gets married a copy may not be made for that child. It is permitted to copy a song off the radio since the quality is not as good as it would be if one were to buy the CD or tape. Music that is offered on the internet may not be copied since it is only put there for one to listen to. 98
Some producers maintain that the forty-five second clips that are offered on the internet may be copied. Copying a CD or tape is forbidden even if one would never buy the CD or tape. 99
94. Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita. Refer to Igros Moshe O.C. 4:40:19, Yabea Omer C.M. 7:9, Mishnas Zechuyos
(number 21).
95. Parshas Yisro 20:13.
96. Refer to Igros Moshe O.C. 4:40:19.
97. Refer to Rivevos Ephraim 4:248, 3:596.
9:footnotes 26-27.
99. Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita. One is not allowed to copy even one song from many CDs or tapes to make a mix
(Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita). If one who copied a CD or tape despite not being allowed to do so may listen to it in
cholentkugelkishke:
Good one.
Philosopher:
I dont think its possible to simultaneously love someone and not respect them.
If you truly love someone you respect them. Additionally, if you disrespect someone you have no chance of bringing them back to Yiddishkeit.
Imagine if all the people who work with teens at risk disrespected the kids. Would they help even 1 kid?
You cant disrespect others. The only people you can disrespect are people who are choteh umachti es harabbim. But even those people, you have to know where the Choteh umachti is coming from. Is it because he never learned and doesnt know anything? Or is he stam a Krummeh mentch who thinks he can outsmart G-d?
FOR ALL THE TEENAGERS HERE WHO HAVE QUESTIONS:
I used to be in the same boat as you and realized that my Rabbeim arent answering the questions. I am of the opinion that many dont know the answers or dont know it well enough to explain it. So what did I do?
I started reading. There are hundreds of books and sefarim out there that deal with all the questions that people have on Judaism. Read Rabbi Aryeh Kaplans books. He will clear up a lot of the murkiness for you. You can also go to websites like Kiruv.com which have hundreds of articles geared specifically for all the questions that people have on judaism. I guarantee that if you read up on the articles on Kiruv.com and listen to some of the free audio they offer you will have a much better understanding of Judaism.
Theres a great book that I think everyone should read. Its a life changing book and will alter the way you view Judaism and life.
The book is called What The Angel Taught You seven keys to life fulfillment by Rabbi Noah Weinberg and Yakov Salomon. Give it a thorough read. Its well worth it.
philosopher:
Unless someone has learned through Shulchon Aruch numerous times it is very likely they are doing many things wrong. So what should we do? Disrespect basically everybody? We all do things that are wrong I would say except for some rare very well learned Rabbanim we all are over on different aspects of Halacha daily if not daily then quite often and I think almost everyone is working on himself and is likely better today than he was a year ago. In most cases we have to respect our friends and neighbors and accept them as they are. Its not our job to go around judging people in fact its not our place and the way we judge others is how we will be judged by Hashem so thats a big incentive to not even judge others Bichlal. I would think there are very rare occasions when it is permitted to disrespect someone.
The bottom line is you dont know the circumstances so who are you to judge? Everyone has a Yetzer Hora and its their job to deal with it. Theres a difference between disrespecting someone and disagreeing with their conduct. One should know for himself that what so and so is doing is wrong and assur and should tell his children not to act in a certain way but keep in mind, theres an obligation to love our fellow Jew and treat others with respect.
da
The 3rd Rebbe is an “Ois Varf!” lol
Im guessing this guy didnt go off from the slit but it was the catalyst that lead him down a road of indulging in Tayvos noshim which pretty much leads down hill fast vhamayvin yovin.
oomis1105
You totally nailed it. That is the issue. Once the girls hit 9th or 10th grade these things must be discussed, because lets face it, girls develop quicker than boys and in this day and age almost all 9th and 10th grade aged girls know good and well where babies come from and all that. For some reason girls dont understand what happens to men when they see women dressed provocatively unless they are told. The schools have a responsibility and obligation to tell them. Im not sure why they dont when it seems so obvious that they should.
You are not being realistic. Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on destroying the State of Israel and murdering all its civilians. The only way they will release Shalit is if Israel releases imprisoned terrorists which wont happen. Or, Israel will launch a commando raid and save him but it seems likely that he is kept in a place that will make a raid impossible or too costly on other soldiers lives.
Just keep Davening.
Popa, I find myself in strong agreement. Its vital to love the person and hate the action. All too often we end up hating the person because of the bad action. It requires work to train ourself that when we see someone do something wrong to not brand the person.
What I personally do when I see someone do something wrong is, I think “he is a shogeg, he doesnt know the halacha, he hasnt had a chance to learn it yet, or he forgot, or it is one of his big nisayonos. I know Im not perfect and there are plenty of things that Im not yet doing correctly, I dont want someone looking down on me when I mess up and thinking that I dont know Halacha or thinking Im an oisvarf…, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt and understand that he is working on himself and he is doing the best he can.”
The Emes is and I said it earlier, the real way to bring Moshiach is Ahavas Chinum. We need to do Teshuvah on the reasons that the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed. Unfortunately, Sinas Chinum is still thriving in our communities. We look down on others who look different than us and we judge others without ANY facts. I can go on and on but the bottom line is as long as we look down on a fellow Jew Moshiach wont come. He wont want to come and we probably wont want him. What would the Chassidim say if hes a Litvak? What would the Litvaks say if hes Chassidish…?
We have to stop LABELING people and looking down on others. Anyone who knows anything about the shidduchim market knows that many possible good shidduchim never happen due to people looking down on others and thinking “oh that family? They are….no WAY will my son/daughter ever marry into SUCH a family!” Whats the Avlah? They stack? They use plastic? They arent “fancy” enough? The girl dresses plain (she doesnt dress like a runway model shiksa which is todays frum fashion for many)? The boy isnt with it enough? (Oh you mean you expect him to know EVERY movie TV show and non Jewish singer?)
What world do we live in?
Another thought. Do we really want Moshiach? Learn about what the Yemos Hamoshiach will be like. Think DEEPLY about it and then answer. I think most of us pay lip service when we say we want Moshiach because we live like its all the here and now Gashmius.
Tonight I davened Maariv somewhere where Maariv took about 7 minutes from start to finish. I didnt time it but Im not exaggerating. I had enough time to finish Shema and then had to say Shemonah Esrei.
Whats the hurry. Theres no way to have Kavanah in such a minyan. I dont think that Im a “frummy” but I felt out of place davening a longer shemonah esrei than everyone. When I finished whoever was still there looked at me like “whoa” look at that guy hes some davener or whatever. I was thinking “when did it become something impressive for someone to take 4-5 minutes to say Shemonah Esrei? I actually tried to Daven a bit fast so I catch Kaddish.
We really dont want Moshiach. I a sorry if I offend anyones sensitivity but here is the one place I can talk and not have to be PC. Lets face it, Moshiach could have been here by now. He is ready to come. It is us who isnt ready.
I stand by what I said earlier that we need Ahavas Chinum but I think I can go a step higher and mention something even more elementary that will encompass Ahavas Chinum.
What we need to start doing is learning Halacha. I am far from a Baki but I learn Halacha daily. I learn Kitzur yomi and I learn some Rambam every day. I plan to start Mishnah Brurah Yomi soon. I have already learned through about a quarter or more of Kitzer Shulchon Aruch Yomi. The more I learn the more I realize that although theres so much to know, its all knowable “if” I want to know it and am willing to do what it takes to get that info into my brain. All we need to do is learn Halacha daily and and do it. Be mekayem what we learn as the Ramban says in his Igeres to his son. We need to look into our learning for things that we can be mekayem. No more no less. Keep the Shulchon Aruch as difficult as it may be. The fact that it is difficult shows that we are maybe not living the life we are supposed to be living. However if we did start keeping Halacha I think that Moshiach would come very soon indeed.