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sof davar hakol nishma:
You cant please everyone. Everyone has different sensitivities so as long as its not a Halachic issue but just one of a sensitivity, it is the person with the sensitivity’s obligation to find a way to not be bothered by what goes on that “offends” him. You cant impose your sensitivities on other people, especially a Rabim. So its really up to people with sensitivities to find a way to live their life and not make others feel like they are doing something wrong just because you dont like it.
I fasted by not eating.
The Hamodia has a daily newspaper with all relevant news. Theres no news you “need to know” that you cant get from a Jewish newspaper or from Jewish news websites unless you “need to know” which Hollywood prutza just went into or went out of rehab and worse….
If for whatever reason (and I cant think of one) you really need to read a non Jewish paper you can read the wall street journal which has limited shmutz.
Reading the post and the daily news is like reading a tabloid and the NY times isnt much better.
Max well:
Theres no change of heart. I do still agree that “if” there are teenage girls congregating in the streets to attract boys then that is a problem and must be disbanded however it is highly doubtful that it is going on and there may be a few in one specific neighborhood but it is far from being a widespread problem because nobody else has seen this happening, but yes it should not take place.
This thread then changed to married women which because obviously there was no issue with the single girls. So I think some people “invent” problems. Some people are hotheads and have their Tayvos out of control and they try to sound “frum” by being Rodef women and expecting them to live up to unlivable and unrealistic standards.
There is no heter to be Rodef women and try to blame all of our problems on women. Learn to look less!
Ahavas Yisroel is vitally important, however lets not forget that we have 613 mitzvos and we must keep those with all of their Halachos. There are some people who just care about Ahavas Yisroel but forget about the rest of the mitzvos, that wont bring Moshiach. Listening to Hashem means doing ALL His Mitzvos whether it is convenient for you or not.
Helpful:
Thank you thats what I was going to say to aries. Theres no heter to read any non Jewish newspapers or magazines bizman hazeh. They all contain filth and pritzus pictures additionally, we have so many Jewish newspapers today theres no excuse left to read a non Jewish paper.
philosopher:
Sound advice.
As a man who cares a lot about Tznius issues and his Ruchniyus, Im really sickened by some of the men commenting here. Dont you men realize that shmiras eynayim means watching your eyes? You have no business even looking at your friends wife. If you are truly makpid to only glance for the purpose of not bumping into them you will not have issues with where they congregate and all that. It seems that some of the men here are looking too much and that is what is bothering them. Face it, we live in a Pritzusdik world so even if you never saw a Jewish woman in the streets youd see so much prustkiet just from billboards and the way young non Jewish women walk around.
If you are busy watching your eyes, I dont see how some wives sitting outside with their babies really poses a problem for you unless your Tayvos are out of control and you cant resist looking at women. In that case you are the one who should be indoors and not walking the streets. NOT THE WOMEN!
As aries said, the women have lots of kids and lots of responsibilities and they need to go out to air out and socialize as well as take the kids out to play and they need to be there to supervise. Have some Rachmanus and cut the women some slack, unless you want to take care of the 5 kids under the age of 10 yourself!
It is important to eat carbs like potatoes Oatmeal pastas and breads. Fish is very filling as well as fruit and vegetables like apples oranges and grapes and salads.
I would think that men stam hanging around in the street would be assur too for different reasons, such as leitzanus, bittul torah ….so all the Tzaddikim that want to limit the women being in the street should realize that we guys dont own the streets and we cant come and go as we please either.
Taken from Halachically speaking:
Pizza: How Many Slices is a Seuda?
When eating pizza one is faced with the question of
how many slices would constitute a shiur kevias
seuda to require washing and bentching?
Many poskim say that even one slice of pizza is a
meal for which one is required to wash and
bentch. 76 Others say the shiur is two slices, 77 while
others say that two slices would only constitute a meal if they are eaten with something else, such as a
knish. 78 As mentioned above, there is a dispute if
pizza is a meal food or a snack food. Therefore, one
should decide why he is eating the pizza: if it is for
a snack, then he should wash and bentch if he plans
on eating more than two slices, and if he is eating it
as a meal then he should wash even on one slice. 79
have to wash and bentch according to everyone. On buying a
slice of pizza and not a whole pie in regard to being a shaleim
see Avnei Yushfei 3:21:8.
page 24, Chai Moshe page 283, see Bais Avi 5:7-12.
aries2756:
The internet can be used for good and there are filters. I personally have learned a lot of Torah thanks to the internet by watching shiurim and downloading many shiurim and reading divrei Torah on various websites. I wont say that a person doesnt have to be careful on the net, however if a person is careful I see no problem with it.
On the other hand non Jewish media and entertainment theres no good at all. The only options are bad, and terrible.
SJSinNYC:
Sadly in this day and age it is in style to spoil your kids and there are plenty teenagers and even tweens with fancy ipods, phones and other gadgets and gizmos. Some parents are clueless about the capabilities of these devices and others think that their child wont do anything wrong. Parents have a huge achrayus today to be on top of their kids and what they are being exposed to.
There are many medrashim about the times of moshiach and the things that will happen before Moshiach comes. If we just read these emails and go on with our lives thats a big kitrug on us. “deep down we are all desperate for the geulah” thats just not good enough. Deep down plony doesnt want to eat ham, but he eats ham. Deep down he doesnt want to be mechalel shabbos, but he is mechalel shabbos. Would you defend someone in court saying, deep down he didnt want to kill the person, but he did?
kapusta:
There is no bathingsuit that is Tzniusdig enough to greet Moshiach in so that moshol doesnt work. There are different attires appropriate for different activities. However a frum woman who takes Tznius seriously should feel very uncomfortable and “undressed” in a 2 piece bathing suit. The goal is to always maintain as high a level of Tznius as possible. Even if you arent on the madregah to feel uncomfortable in a 2 piece, you should, and therefore dont dress that way because its not Tznius and eventually by habit of always dressing Tznius the feeling to want to always dress Tznius will come.
rescue37:
You missed my point totally. Nobody says a Jew has to seclude themselves from the world at large. My point was that even though we live in the non Jewish society, and we go to work, and we have every right to know the news, it should end there.
There has never been a heter and there never will be a heter to read filthy newspapers like the NY Post and others. If a Yid wants the news he can go to a Jewish website or read one of the Jewish papers. You get all the relevant news in that manner.
However there is no heter to bring non Jewish newspapers, magazines, novels, tv shows, movies and music into your homes. The non Jewish media and entertainment industry was made for them and it is theirs. If we pollute our homes, eyes and ears with their shmuts it will eat away at our neshomos and lower our standards. It is cristal clear to me that the non Jewish entertainment is what has eroded our senses and brought many of us down in all areas of yiddishkiet. If you listen to how someone talks or watch someones mode of dress or conduct you can pretty quickly figure out if this person is exposed to non Jewish shmutz entertainment.
The Torah warns us in many places not to follow the practices of the goyim and not to go in their ways. It should be pashut to any frum Jew that bringing in non Jewish entertainment into the home is a recipe for disaster.
Anything we cant do in the Torah is all things that the goy does and is allowed to do. The only way to do that is to guard ourselves by not letting these harmful influences in.
I will add that for men there is certainly no heter for reading non Jewish magazines, newspapers or novels because of looking at lewd pictures of women as well as reading things that arouse ones Tayvos. Movies are clearly assur because its assur to look at female nudity as well as stam looking at any woman who isnt your wife, as well as the issur of looking at Reshayim which is pretty much the case of every actor. They are for the most part the lowest of the low.
Obviously there will be other things required and one has to have a good understanding of Yiddishkiet. However there are plenty of people who learned in the best schools and they know plenty about Yiddishkiet and they still dont live properly and its all because they cant let go of the goys entertainment.
First ??? ??? then ???? ???
philosopher:
I agree with your post 100%. There are some sick men out there that love the concept of controlling women and they relish the fact that the Rambam says women should leave the house twice a month.
To anyone with any knowledge of Jewish history it is clear we dont pasken remotely like this Rambam. There have always been women who worked and had businesses. The Chofetz chaims wife had a store which means she left the house every day.
As long as theres a purpose for being on the street and as long as the girls are acting in a Tzniusdig manner there is no issue with them being out.
If they are gathering in big crowds and making noise and drawing attention to themselves then yes they should disband and go home. But most women and girls act properly and dont “hang out” in the streets.
Might I add that if a man goes where he belongs, looks where he should look and doesnt look where he shouldnt look he wont “notice” so many girls doing whatever wrong thing that these people notice them doing. I find that some people look for problems.
Some people wont like what Im about to say but I will say it anyways. Just because you are a teenager and cant control your raging Tayvos doesnt mean girls need to be locked up in the house where you will never see them.
Girls have every right to be on the street and go where they need to go. Theres only an issue when girls are congregating on purpose to go out looking at boys which Im sure there arent many out there doing. If stam girls being on the street bothers you, then maybe you have some misogynistic issues.
I have been pondering this topic post for some time now and I was thinking, at the core of it, why is Tznius really so problematic today. Why are women dressing this way?
Now some would say that its because the styles that are being sold and promoted in clothing stores. However the truth is that these styles can be tailored to be more Tzniusdig, additionally, why are the Jewish stores selling these styles to begin with? Why is there a Jewish market for it?
What lies at the root of the problem in my opinion is an influence from the goyim and a desire to be like them whether consciously or subconsciously through social conditioning. I think that we have allowed goyish society to take root amongst us in a very major way. What do I refer to?
Many frum people who consider themselves very frum read non the new york post, daily news and other shmutz papers. Many have these papers and shmutz magazines delivered to their houses. They also read non Jewish novels all of which have a number of pages dedicated to the very detailed portrayal of steamy love scenes. Its nauseating.
What you look at and read has a powerful hashpaah on how you think and on your sensitivities and priorities. If you take in the goyish ideas, over time you just begin to want it and you dont even realize it, you just think that thats normal. You dont realize that the idea was implanted in your mind from the 1000s of prust newspapers and magazines you read.
Then theres the worse influence of TV and movies. But you will say most frum people dont have tv?! Well today you dont need one. You can download or rent any Tv show or movie directly from the internet. You can have movies delivered to your home…When you watch movie after movie it breaks down your spiritual awareness. You start to want to be like the goy and start to think what you saw on the tv show and movie is normal. Consciously or subconsciously you want to start being “cool” and stylish like the goyim you see on the screen. The women see how the men all obsess over women in these tv shows and movies and its all about sex and prustkiet. Instead of it disgusting us we start to think that yes this is normal this is how it should be and women start wanting to look “hot” so that men will lust after them and look and admire them for their beauty.
This all comes from the goyish media that many people allow into their homes. If you think it doesnt have an effect on you, you are foolish and in major denial. There have been plenty of studies that rape and violence has gone up in society due to the things that people see on tv and movies. What you watch and read has a huge effect on you.
A Jew should get all his ideas from Torah sources. The more we allow non Jewish media into our homes, the more our hearts and minds will want to be like the goyim.
If you want the Pritzus problem to go away, get the goyish influence out of our lives. I could be wrong but my mind tells me that there is not one girl who dresses untzniusdig that never watched a movie or doesnt read non jewish magazines or doesnt listen to non Jewish music. The yetzer horah to be untznius doesnt come to a pure girl who watches her eyes and ears.
blinky thats pretty funny.
Girls have a right to walk to their friends, or walk to shiurim, or walk to the nursing homes or wherever else it is they are going. As long as they arent just congregating in the street to “hang out” and to just be in the street I see no issue with it.
How do you know what they are up to unless you are busy paying attention to them and watching them during those “3 hours” that they are on the street.
I take it you are a boy so you should either be in a bais medrash learning or at home learning, or even sleeping. I see no reason why a boy may hang out on the street unless he has a reason to be there either.
If you were where you were supposed to be and doing what you were supposed to do this “enormous issue” wouldnt be a problem for you.
Optimist- the glass is half full.
pessimist- the glass is half empty.
fatalist-the water will evaporate.
existentialist- the glass is.
feminist- all glasses are equal.
narcissist-look at me in the water!
polygamist-the more glasses the merrier.
evangelist-the glass must repent.
socialist-share the glass.
capitalist-sell the glass.
anarchist- break the glass.
psychologist- How does the water feel about the glass?
smartcookie:
Dont lump all men in the same boat. Most women love the country and the husbands sacrifice to let them go. The men have work so they must be in the city anyways and many go up Thursday and leave Sunday night so its not nearly as geferlach as you make it sound.
If men want to sin and look at women on the street they will do it regardless of if their wife is at home in the city or if they are in the country.
wolf:
Why the extreme sarcasm and negativity? Theres a source for all of these segulos. The Gedolim from hundreds of years ago did all these segulos with the wine and the relighting the candle and sniffing the candle. Theres a reason for everything even if you dont know it. No reason to give attitude.
Philosopher:
Im not judging those people who dont wear jackets. I just was wondering why theres a laxity. I dont think these people are bad chas veshalom. In fact many really nice and good people are doing it and I was wondering what the deal is and why people arent makpid on this.
rescue37:
Thank you. Thats a beautiful way to think and a madreigah we should all strive for. Theres always something good we can see in another person as long as we try to and are interested in seeing good in them.
aries2756:
The Hashem isnt with me on vacation problem is truly a machlah. I know otherwise frum people that when it comes to honeymoon, or stam vacations go to beaches and such. Theres no Heter and many people are just living a double life. What happens in Miami stays in Miami or anywhere else for that matter. And people are shocked when terrible tragedies happen in the community. Keep the Torah and you wont have problems!
philosopher:
The point is not to look down on others. I sense that you are condescending to those who arent up to your frumkeit standards. We cant judge others. We have to know what they do is wrong and educate our kids properly, but if we tell our kids, dont dress like that Jewish girl, shez a prutzah she dresses like a shiksa you have done more bad than good. You have no right to look down on another yid, or to hate them in your heart for their lower level of frumkeit.
The bottom line has to be Ahavas Yisroel no matter what.
A lot of people have unfiltered internet. I think you are preaching to the crowd that has filtered internet. Personally, I dont have filtered internet and I dont go to assur sites. I will tell you that I see more pritzus on the streets of Brooklyn daily in the summer than I see online in a year.
Actually I find in general not always but very often that the homes where the husband didnt go to Kollel but he is a frum man who is Koveia itim and she is a a frum woman with good hashkafos tend to have better more adjusted Torahdig families.
I find that as long as daddy is in Kollel he is all holy and the house is Torahdig but then once he leaves he drops in Ruchnius like a stone in water. What do you think that does to the family? They all drop with him. A non Kollel family doesnt have this phenomenon.
Philosopher and Kasha:
I agree that the Tznius issue is a big problem. I was just talking about judging people. Al tadin chavercha ad shetagia limkomo. It is obviously talking about doing something BAD and still it says dont judge him. Never judge him because you can never be bimkomo. How do you understand it?
missme:
Dont worry about Hocheach Tocheach. I dont remember the location but I believe it is Rabbi Akiva who says in the Gemara that there was nobody in his generation great enough to be able to give Hochacha to others.
Hocheach Tocheach is a very difficult Mitzvah to do and many times its not required because there are many times it doesnt apply. So instead of being busy with that mitzvah how about being busy with dan lekaf zchus which most people dont even begin to know how to do either. Its another super tough one. I think once we master that we can then worry about Hocheach Tocheach.
It just really shocks me that we are so busy JUDGING. Its not our place to judge. Its Hashems job to judge so just remember that when you are busy judging others, you are doing Hashems job which is sort of like saying that you think you are God which is Avodah Zara. Do you see how serious it is?
missme, this is NOT directed at you it is at all those who think they are in a position to judge people.
I do agree with some KH. First of all the bungalow colonies are terrible for teenage boys and girls. There are always big problems because the boys and girls are bored stiff and they see each other all the time. It starts with some shmoozing and takes for from there. Many bf gf relationships started from the bungalow colony.
Additionally, in the summer people are more relaxed and chilled and there is lots of mingling in bungalow colonies between men and women and people tend to be more “heimish” with their friends spouses. My experience is with regular places. I never attended a very frummie bungalow colony so dont know but im speaking for regular run of the mill places that typical Brooklyn people would go to.
smartcookie:
I would think it depends on if the person is walking or jogging, also what they are wearing would make a big difference. I would love to know if any respectable Rav poskened on this. Obviously a woman can be machmir on herself but mitzad hadin I dont think its an issue as long as the woman isnt dressed immodestly and she is just brisk walking.
apushatayid:
Baruch Hashem! Good for you that Hashem shelters you, or you are just oblivious.
Dr. Pepper:
Moving story. You did a big Mitzvah helping this kid!
BP Totty:
Im not so sure we are so A-OK at all. The numbers of people who are depressed, kids at risk, drug users, physical and sexual abusers, ganovim and what not keeps growing in our communities. Theres something very wrong in the “Yiddish velt” today and its very sad indeed.
From reading the Yated and Hamodia one would think all is well in our camp but sadly it is not so.
I dont have any real answers but I will say that awareness is very important. All the things we used to think “cant happen” by us bnei Torah have pretty much happened already in the last 20+ years.
We really dont know whats doing by our friends and neighbors but many people are suffering.
I personally find no issue with labels as long as they arent negative or derogatory like bum, bummy, loser, ois varf, tuna beigel, and other such pejoratives.
yosr:
One should never rush through any Tefillah. Da lifnei Mi Atah Omed.
I have a shailah on this. If a Jew overcharges (Onaah) would buying from him be a Lifnei Iver and even worse dont you get an Aveira for paying Onaah?
So technically it may be Assur to buy from certain Jewish food stores?
Yeshivish is a style and mode of dress speech and lifestyle. Its an external way of looking or acting which may say something about te yeshivah the boy attended and the family he is from. It doesn’t necessarily mean a person is strict in their observance. You can be yeshivish and watch movies follow sports and listen to non Jewish music and do lots worse…trust me I know I’ve attented yeshivish yeshivahs. Don’t judge a book by its cover. I know plenty “modern” looking people who put many not modern looking peoples davenings, learning, and middos to shame.
As Rav Gifter Zatzal says, we should strive to be Torah Jews.
“dont the sems teach that part of spending the year in israel is learning that we can live with less than what we are used to in the states and be very happy? so why the expensive plans?”
UM, WHY IS SEMINARY CLOSE TO $20,000 THEN? IT COSTS NEARLY TWICE AS MUCH TO SENT A GIRL TO ISRAEL THAN A BOY!
hanab:
ITA. A big general problem bizman hazeh is people not following Halacha. Nobody needs chumros and all that. Just follow the basics of shulchon aruch and you’ll be more than fine.
Yossi,
You will save yourself much time and confusion by going to your local Jewish book store and looking through the books on Shidduchim and marriage and buying one of them.
You will hear lots of good and some very bad advice here and this topic is too serious and important for you to leave it up to us to advise you.