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Wolfish,
Why not look it up? That will clarify it a lot better than I can. I am merely a second-hand messenger here.
Any Gedolim give an haskama on this? (Or for that matter on this type of thing.) If so, which?
Wolfish,
Instead of hearing it second-hand, why not check it out first-hand in the Mishna Brura? I gave the mekor above.
There is a difference. Women are obligated to hear the Megillah and to rejoice and partake in the Seuda on Purim, for they were part of the neis. As far as ad d’loi yoda, however, the Rivevois Ephraim (Vol.1 Ch.161) and others rule that it is inappropriate for women to become intoxicated.
Indeed the Mishna Brura (OC 199:6, in Sha’ar HaTzion), in the laws of birkas hamazon, explains that the reason women are not obligated to make a mezuman is that a mezuman should ideally be performed on a cup of wine and it is unseemly for a woman to do this.
That is completely and absolutely 100% incorrect. Indeed, the polar opposite of reality.
The fact of the matter is the vast majority of people do and can get shikker strictly l’shem mitzvah. And it is far far far from the “ONE thing you guys are holding onto from the past.” In fact we are holding steadfast to all 613 Mitzvos “from the past.”
Of course, perhaps, you live in some parallel universe where unfortunately the folks you associate with are not l’shem mitzvah. But that is a world I don’t know. Where I come from, there are literally tens or hundreds of thousands of l’shem mitzvah Yidden. On this mitzvah and every mitzvah. Another possibility is where I see the light you see darkness. But since it is Purim today, lighten up!!!
AH FREILECHEN LICHTIGE SHIKKERIN PURIM TZU ALLE HEILEGE YIDDEN!!!
Gemara Megillah 7b:
??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????
??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????
?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????
“Rava said: A person is obligated to become intoxicated on Purim until he does not know the difference between ‘Cursed Be Haman’ and ‘Blessed Be Mordechai.’
Rabba and Rabbi Zera made their Purim feast with one another. They became drunk; Rabba arose and slaughtered Rabbi Zera. The next day, he asked for mercy for him, and caused him to live.”
The Rif, Rosh, and Tur simply cite the Gemarah from Rava lehalacha, without elaboration.
Shulchan Aruch:
???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????
Shulchan Aruch [Directly quoting the gemara]: One is obligated to [get drunk]
Rambam:
???? ??
???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???, ????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??????.
Chazal:
Wine has potential for good and bad. Chazal mention this idea in many places. Getting drunk, if done properly, is an important mitzvah.
For 364 days a year, we have no other choice. Our mind must exercise complete control over our emotions and behavior, lest the animal in us rage rampant and trample to death all that is good in ourselves and our world. Furthermore, we need the mind not only as guardian and regulator, but also as facilitator of our highest potentials. It is the mind that navigates the workings of nature, enabling us to sustain and improve our lives in the service of our Creator; it is the mind that recognizes the goodness and desirability in certain things and the evil and danger in others, thereby guiding, developing and deepening our loves and aversions, our joys and fears; it is with our minds that we imbibe the wisdom of the Torah, allowing us an apprehension of the divine truth.
If the mind does all these things within the finite parameters of reason, concealing galaxies of knowledge with every ray of light it reveals and suppressing oceans of feeling with every drop it distills, it remains the most effective tool we have with which to access the truths that lie buried in the core of our souls and reside in the subliminal heavens above.
But there is one day in the year in which we enjoy direct, immediate access to these truths. This day is Purim. The Jew who rejoices on Purim–who rejoices in his bond with G-d without equivocation–has no need for reason. For he is in touch with his truest self–a self before which his animalistic drives are neutralized, a self which requires no medium by which to express itself and no intermediaries by which to relate to its source in G-d.
The Jew who rejoices on Purim no longer requires the mind to tell him the difference between “cursed be Haman” and “blessed be Mordechai”; he is above it all, relating to the divine truth that transcends the bifurcation of good and evil. For the Jew who rejoices on Purim, the mind is utterly superfluous, something which only encumbers the outpouring of his soul, something which only quantifies and qualifies that which is infinite and all-pervading. So he puts his mind to sleep for a few hours, in order to allow his true self to emerge.
Jothar, Sorry to burst your figurative bubble, but getting drunk is indeed a religious obligation for us Yidden. As stated in Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, Mishna Brura, and numerous numerous Seforim HaKedoshim – not to even mention a befeirush Gemorah. And as openly and happily practiced by the Gedolim shlita and zt”l.
And judging from what I’ve seen thus far throughout this vast city, both indoors and outdoors, our Acheinu Bnei Yisroel are fulfilling this Mitzvah with great detail!
Ah Freilichen Purim!
“The court held that despite the first amendment the government could restrict acts that may have bearing on religious practice.”
The Court in 1878 held it could do so, but in the case of alcohol, the legislation in effect as current law of the land specifically states the will of Congress and the legislature is that they have chosen not to – and rather specifically allows it.
Getting drunk IS a religious obligation on Purim. Sure, some may hold of other shittos, but secular law allows the freedom of religion to abide by any shitta. The law cannot make a distinction and force one shitta over another. Indeed it would be unconstitutional for the law to to decide a religious matter.
Bottom line is that it is within the law to get drunk on Purim.
Dr. Pepper
Member
There are 4 places in the Megilla (that I know of) where we find four words in a row where the first (or last) letters spell Hashems name (both forward and backwards).
Where are these Pesukim?
POSTED 2 DAYS AGO #
_______________________________
Any hints?
Jag, Charles Hynes doesn’t hold by your Rov, but Charles Hynes does hold by the law. And the minor alcohol law specifically exempts all alcohol utilized for religious observance OR if the parent provided authorization for its consumption (even if not for religious observance.)
Remember, it is not illegal to get drunk. It is illegal to drive if drunk.
Jothar, You are debating your straw-man again. You falsely attributed quote “100% valid poskim who hold one should drink himself to the floor” is not mine. The Seder HaYom was quoted to that effect by a poster.
If straw-men are your thing, have fun.
Gut Shabbos & Ah Freilichen Purim!
Jothar, Do you agree there are 100% valid shittos that are abided by many mainstream Yidden in Klal Yisroel that hold it is either required or preferable to become drunk to the point of “ad dlo yoda” (arrur haman/baruch mordechai)? If you can’t admit this fact, there is no point in having this discussion.
Here is a great story from the Shema Yisrael Torah Network:
AH FREILECHEN LICHTIGE SHIKKERIN PURIM TZU ALLE HEILEGE YIDDEN! GEVALDT!
Women are obligated to hear the Megillah and to rejoice and partake in the Seuda on Purim, for they were part of the neis. As far as ad d’loi yoda, however, the Rivevois Ephraim (Vol.1 Ch.161) and others rule that it is inappropriate for women to become intoxicated.
Indeed the Mishna Brura (OC 199:6, in Sha’ar HaTzion), in the laws of birkas hamazon, explains that the reason women are not obligated to make a mezuman is that a mezuman should ideally be performed on a cup of wine and it is unseemly for a woman to do this.
annie: No.
Shichruso shel Lot? LOL! Whoever, other than you, ever said about shichruso shel Lot?
(Ben Levi quoted the Seder Hayom that we should be “ROFIV”, but I didn’t see anyone post they pasken like him. The reason for this, writes the Seder HaYom, is because Haman sought to spill our blood to the ground, so we attempt to emulate this by allowing ourselves to end up on the ground.)
I’ll grant you one thing Jothar, you are humorous.
It must be fun building up straw-men so that you can knock them down.
Reading what was actually said, well, must be boring for you.
Jothar, I’m not going to continue in a tit-for-tat regarding your distortion of the sources. I’ve already pointed that out.
If you’ve never seen LITVISH Roshei Yeshiva good and shikur on Purim, I’m not sure which planet your living on. Feel free to Yeshiva hop this Purim, and you’ll run out of fingers counting all of them.
The Mechaber and Remo rule in accordance with Rovo (Gemora Megillah 7b) that “one is obligated liv’sumi [Rashi – to become intoxicated with wine] on Purim ad d’loi yoda [until one cannot distinguish] between ‘cursed is Homon’ and ‘blessed is Mordechai'”. (The Gemora then relates that Rabbo and Reb Zeira once had the Purim meal together and became intoxicated. Rabbo rose and slaughtered Reb Zeira. The following day Rabbo prayed for Divine mercy and Reb Zeira came back to life.)
The Pri Megodim (Mishbetzos Zohov 695:2) and Mishna Brura (695:5) rule in accordance with the Remo. The Maharil (Ch.56) rules that it is desirable to become intoxicated. The Rambam (Hilchos Megilla 2:15) rules that one should take wine to the point that one becomes intoxicated and falls asleep.
Wrong, Jothar. Rav Shmuel was speaking to Project Yes teens at risk, advising them caution, NOT to the tzibbur at large. I already invited you to the Yeshiva in Philly on Purim to observe for yourself how the bochorim fir zich.
Don’t forget to bring along genuk yayin to be mekayim ad dlo yoda.
The Gemora (Megillah 7b) quotes Rovo that “one is obligated liv’sumi [Rashi – to become intoxicated with wine] on Purim ad d’loi yoda [until one cannot distinguish] between ‘cursed is Homon’ and ‘blessed is Mordechai'”. Shulchan Aruch (OC 695:2) and Remo, rule in accordance with Rovo, and state that this is an obligation. The Bach states that according to the Tur one is literally required to become so intoxicated on Purim that one is unable to distinguish any difference between ‘cursed is Homon’ and ‘blessed is Mordechai’. The Shelo Hakodoish and Chacham Tzvi are said to have fulfilled Rovo’s ruling literally. The Shelo Hakodoish is also quoted as stating that one who is frail by nature is exempt from becoming intoxicated – the implication being that one who is fit and healthy is obligated to become intoxicated. The Rambam (Hilchos Megilla 2:15) rules that one should take wine to the stage that one becomes intoxicated and falls asleep. The Sfas Emes explains that the obligation of ad d’lo yoda is a requirement to rejoice and drink continually. And the Seder Hayom states that one is to become inebriated on Purim to the point that they are rolling on the floor throwing up. The Mishna Brura paskens in accordance with the Remo that one should become intoxicated.
gavra:
1. That is New Jersey specific. NY and CA, as I pointed out, does not have that provision.
2. The DA is not going to bring a losing case in the first place, where the law clearly provided a religious exemption and there was parental consent. Additionally, the State (i.e. DA) cannot introduce theological or religious evidence, so that point is moot. The defense merely needs to establish a sincerely held religious belief. Many shitos provide that; the DA or Judge will not (and legally cannot) “pasken” or accept one shitta over another.
3. The religious exemption, both on the federal and state levels, are not limited to rites. Purim fully qualifies under it. (Ironically, note your own quote of the relevant NJ statue above states “shall not apply to… a religious observance, ceremony or rite.“) Purim, including the obligation to drink alcohol, is a religious observance.
gavra, the religious exception would suffice in New Jersey. In fact, all states as well as federal law allow for the religious exception which would cover Purim.
In New York and California the laws are seemingly more liberal and do not have Jersey’s furnishing restrictions. In any event, even without the religious exemption NY and CA allow parental permission anytime.
Wolfish, If the bochor says he holds of a psak of a lesser shiur, who am I to argue with him? Of course I would respect that and not force him to drink more than he wishes! 🙂 And I would fully grant he is yotze the mitzvah.
But a Yid has a Chezkas Kashrus, and if he tells me he holds of the most common understanding of ad dlo yoda – to become intoxicated to the point of being unable to make a distinction between Arrur Haman and Baruch Mordechai…
Jothar, many of us follow the shita of the Shulchan Aruch and Remo on Ad Dlo Yoda. This isn’t a “mistaken notion.” Also, the shita of sleeping is based on the person falling asleep as a result of the drinking. (i.e. the alcohol puts him to sleep.)
BTW, you’ve mentioned the Mishna Brura on other threads. The MB paskens in accordance with the Remo (that one should become intoxicated) but then adds that it is better not to become intoxicated if it could affect one’s observance of other mitzvos, such as davening or birkas hamozon. But the MB’s ikur psak is to become intoxicated.
I’m not familiar with the distinction you made between night and day, but I’ll take your word on it for now.
I agree with you on that… assuming you are using the halachic definition of minor.
“Even addressing volvie’s point — it’s not YOUR responsibility to ensure that the boys are m’kayim Ad D’lo Yada.”
I beg to differ.
Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh L’Zeh.
Its each of our responsibility to help ensure we all fulfill our obligations.
And appropriately (i.e. not unhealthily.)
You can check your State’s underage drinking laws here:
ihear – You are absolutely correct.
Bochorim over Bar Mitzvah (13) have the same chiyuv Ad Dlo Yoda as everyone else.
You did the right thing in the small out of town community where you came from.
(The law allows underage people to drink if their parents allow it.)
Make sure they – bochorim OR older adults – don’t drink to the point of unhealthiness – physically or unreasonably drunk. But they can become drunk ad dlo yoda. If it is a teen at risk or someone who otherwise needs supervision for whatever reason, greater vigilance should be given.
Freilichen Purim!
“I have a hard time believing that if the girl is pretty and thin, guys would not give her time to get comfortable.”
I cannot believe I read those words on a Jewish website. Pretty and thin!? Since when is that THE factor that makes or breaks a potential shidduch!?
Mishloach Manos is technically a religious function/activity/obligation rather than a “gift.”
gavra, There are many sources (many but not all listed earlier in this thread) that insist one must become drunk on Purim. There are other sources that indicate that it is permissible to become less than completely drunk, yet even they basically hold that either it is preferable to become completely drunk or at least it is permissible.
Rav Shmuel was talking to Project Yes teens at risk not to the general rabim. This is easily observed if you hang around the shikur Yeshiva bohcorim in Philly on Purim.
Age 21 is the minimum to purchase alcohol, not drink it. Someone brought a “mekor” on another thread a few days ago that legally a child can drink as much as his parents permission allow.
One can follow the shitta of Rovo as described in the Gemora (Megillah 7b) and the Shulchan Aruch (OC 695:2) and Remo, Bach, Tur, the Shelo Hakodish, the Chacham Tzvi, Rambam, Seder Hayom, and the Sfas Emes while still properly davening Maariv and saying Krias Shma with Kavanna on Purim.
And like you said about the Gedolim spouting Chiddushim when drunk – that amazing feat can still be observed amongst Yidden on Purim, from both Gedolim and the average Yankel, ad hayom hazeh on Purim!
Ah Freilichen Purim!
Its always a pleasure to see old faces.
We also need some fresh blood.
:p
Josh, if you are referring to Purim, the shitta of Rovo (Megillah 7b) which is the basis of the Shulchan Aruch (OC 695:2) and Remo, Bach, Tur, the Shelo Hakodish, the Chacham Tzvi, Rambam, Sfas Emes, and Seder Hayom say otherwise — that drunkeness is not only permissible but required on that day of the year.
As far as ad d’loi yoda it is inappropriate for women to become intoxicated. (As ruled in many places including the Rivevois Ephraim.)
Indeed the Mishna Brura, in the laws of birkas hamazon, explains that the reason women are not obligated to make a mezuman is that a mezuman should ideally be performed on a cup of wine and it is unseemly for a woman to do this.
AZ said “No one in this forum is suggesting boys get married at 19 (although chazal did seem to think it was a good idea).”
Chazal also felt it a good idea for boys to get married at 18.
We know AZ will say that. But nevertheless, as I stated, the older unmarried girls are comparatively generally NOT the quiet types. The quiet types get married as easily as, or easier than, any girl.
Give it another 15 minutes until AZ checks the CR, and he’ll explain why this is all a result of the age gap, and once you fix the age gap all other problems will resolve themselves. 😉
Actually, quiet girls are the most temimusdik, and tend to marry easily. The older single girls hardly seem to be the quiet types!
Jothar, Ben Levi mentioned that the Seder Hayom states that one is to become inebriated on Purim to the point that they are rolling on the floor throwing up. So I don’t agree with your statement about passing vomit, but do agree with you that one who misses the mitzvos deoraysah are not being mekayem a mitzvah.
AZ: You are implying the masses lead the Gedolim?
How is it shayich to change the freezer without it affecting the Lakewood Yeshiva?
AZ, No, I don’t want a list. I just want to know the position of the Roshei Yeshiva in Lakewood. Do THEY support cutting short the amount of learning for bochorim prior to marriage? And even more importantly, since the proposal above is to modify the LAKEWOOD freezer by staggering it, do the LAKEWOOD Roshei Yeshiva support this endeavor?
Yes or No?
jphone: Rav Shmuel HAS said that everyone who uses the internet (supposing they have a dire need for the internet in the first place) should have it filtered.
Jothar: One can follow the shitta of Rovo as described in the Gemora (Megillah 7b) and the Shulchan Aruch (OC 695:2) and Remo, Bach, Tur, the Shelo Hakodish, the Chacham Tzvi, Rambam, and the Sfas Emes (as I enumerated their positions on the previous page of this thread) whilst still not being mevatel mitzvos asey deoraysah.
It’s amazing isn’t it? We were focusing too much on the semantics and we we’re all stressing different areas… but in essence, we all agreed with each other!
Beruchim Haboim Talmid_Chacham!
So it seems then we have a consensus on the two issues at hand:
1. One should not use the internet unfiltered.
2. Those too young and immature to handle excessive alcohol should not be allowed to do so, while those who can should.
Freilichen Purim!
oomis, No one on this or any other thread disagreed with to “LIMIT the excessive use of alcohol by people too young and immature to understand the impact their actions have on themselves and on others.”
Talmid: Exactly.
Or better yet, don’t join the Hellenistic government’s Hellenistic army.
Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky specifically told children at risk – from Project Yes – that they should follow the less stringent shitta. The R”Y was not speaking to the public at large. If anyone is in doubt about this, they are welcome to visit the Yeshiva in Philadelphia for Simchas Purim and bear eidus to shikur bochorim.
Bshas Hadchak has exceptions.
AZ – This WAS another thread prior to your steering it (like so many other shidduch threads) into your pet peeve. It just came back to where it started – what goes around comes around.
Besides, don’t you have any input into matters other than your usual talking points? I’m sure you are not a one-trick pony. (: