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Perhaps because halachicly a wife has to listen to her husband. And a king goes before a queen.
Wolf: Doing something improper is disrespectful.
Just because the Gedolim shlita made a statement on this situation, which clearly was done out of deep pain over the situation — as can be ascertained from reading their careful words, does not mean they issued a license to debate the issue.
It isn’t a matter of debate. The leaders of Klal Yisroel have spoken in a loud, clear and unified voice, and that closes the case.
Welcome Pashuteh Yid 2.0, the new and improved update of the old version.
In more heimish circles it is the accepted thing for the boy to start the conversation. For the girl to start would be pretty disrespectful.
It isn’t just like that in heimish circles. This is also true in yeshivish circles and frum sfardic circles (i.e. Ateret Torah.)
Wolf – Then why the comment “Bodek — it wasn’t particularly funny.”?
Anyways, why not get back to answering Bodek’s actual point that set off this whole brouhaha?
“WolfishMusings” – That isn’t your “name”, but rather a silly (to put it nicely) moniker that you use as an online pseudonym. So let’s not get carried away here in righteous indignation.
I’m glad to know you are on a shared birthdate basis with them.
AZ –
“(not that I disagree with you)”
So you agree my point is valid and my solution is good.
“I am on the issues of SOLVING the problem”
This IS a partial SOLUTION to the problem. Why is it not being promoted any less than the other solution of reducing the age gap. Both work towards solving the same problem, and both can work together simutaneously. Why is one solution that WILL reduce what you call agunas and akaros being left off the table right now?
This should be part of step 1, not pushed off to step 2. I’m sure we can all agree better a shaved head than lifelong agunahs and akaros.
AZ – You should also be promoting the marriage of Chasidishe boys (as there are extra) with Litvishe girls (as there are extra.) However much (and it WILL help somewhat) this reduces the number of Litvishe agunas and akaros that much better.
Where are you on this issue?
EINSTEINIUM
The Gemorah says that Hashem gave the girls 9 barrels of talk while the boys only got 1. So I definitely think it is the girls job to keep the convo going.
Bodek – Most of the differences you mentioned between the Chasidish and Litvish models demonstrate advantages of the Chasidish model. i.e. Them not looking at girls all their life; not comparing to rock stars; etc.
More reason for the Litvish oilem to consider many aspects of the Chasidish shidduch model.
Perhaps AZ can better direct his energies towards adapting the Chasidish model? It works for them, and people are saying they don’t have the Litvish “shidduch crisis”.
Perhaps such an adaptation is less radical than changing the age gap, and more likely to actually get people to change. Or perhaps both approaches (age gap and Chasidish model) can be adapted simultaneously.
AZ?
“Rochelle: The results are good for Chasidish people, I don’t think it would translate to good results for litvish people.”
Why? Are Litvish people made from a different kind of blood than Chasidish people?
“I know of a 25 yr old Chassidish BOY that needs a shidduch.. Good boy. Anyone?”
AZ? Can you help Rochelle? Being deeply involved in the age gap issue, you surely know many agunahs for Rochelle’s boy.
“Girls being open to date boys who are their age or younger is not the answer as that isn’t the source of the problem.”
AZ: Why isn’t girls marrying boys younger than them an answer to the age gap issue?? THAT would certainly alleviate it!
Rochelle:
I think you are wrong to limit it to just a boy a year or two younger.
Just like it is no big deal to marry a girl 4 or 5 years younger, we need to get to the point where it is no big deal (and it isn’t!) to marry a boy 4 or 5 years younger than the girl.
EDIT: Rochelle, why did you delete the text of your post above??
“can you give me some examples”
(Allow me, please, to respond on behalf of AZ…)
1. Only marry someone with no age gap.
2. Pay the shadchan for every date + generously upon completion.
N
“These girls are the ONLY ones NOT at fault for causing the tragic problem”
Who is at fault? Why are they more at fault then them?
Actually, mamashtakah, HKB”H also threw us out of our land and sent us to Golus.
I agree with you 1,000% boredjewishguy.
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Absolutely it can. And has. Many times unfortunately. It can, G-d forbid, lead one (or more) completely astray.
And they don’t always do teshuva most unfortunately. Some have been lost forever.
It isn’t worth the risk, however large the risk is the results can be catastrophic.
A driving accident could kill not only the driver, but several innocent people as well. Indecency could lead to what? (Okay, we all know what it could lead to, but is that worse than killing people?)
Indecency can lead to spiritual death (of multiple people) which is worse than physical death.
Those JOFA style feminist rebels do such things.
bored: I believe it is halachicly assur to unnecessarily engage in a dangerous activity (i.e. bungee jumping.)
We have gedarim for a reason. It may not stop everyone everytime, but it certainly significantly reduces the likelihood of something untowardly occurring.
oomis: That point you make isn’t off-base. Why do you think under ideal circumstances women should not work outside the home?
“It’s also a very good book reader, much better than the kindle.”
How can you say that? The iPad hasn’t even been sold yet!
In fact, the Kindle is geared specifically for book reading. And its lighting is much more suited for book reading.
It’s more or less the same thing with a bigger screen.
Actually indecency is potentially far worse than a driving accident.
But to answer your question, exchanging phone numbers is worse than bungee jumping. Since we can agree (I assume) that banning the latter is correct, the former follows.
That’s why we are blessed with having our Gedolei Yisroel shlita make these decisions of yea or nay on these serious issues. Most people who engage in bungee jumping come out okay. Yet I doubt if asked any godol will tell you its okay to do.
Bodek – My question to you was how it benefits you on a personal level (as opposed to the klal) by dating boys your age versus boys 3 years older than you.
“Sad that these changes are looooong in coming and many girls will be lost because the changes that WILL happen will happen to late for them…”
So you’ve already written off a certain number of Bas Yisroel as having no potential to ever get married – even with the age gap being addressed!?
Wolf,
The danger of boy/girl indecency is far greater and far more serious with far more tragic consequences and a potentially far greater sin than the potential for loshon hara via telephone.
“The Wolf (who had the audacity to look up the phone number of a girl he was interested in.)”
WHAT!? I thought you are married!!
JK
AZ –
Do you not see a possibility by pushing the “age gap” issue so strongly, many girls will become desperate from hearing all about the age gap and start worrying that they personally will become a victim and a statistic – that they will c”v never get married because the’re aren’t enough boys – and as a result the girls will actually date and get married much younger than otherwise.
In effect, as a result of all the talk about the age gap it could have the opposite effect than you intend.
“these days many shidduchim are being redd for me of boys my age.”
Bodek – How does that fact impact you personally — as opposed to if you were redt more boys who were, lets say, 3 years older than you?
If you start allowing girls to exchange their phone numbers with guys, it will lead to indecency. No, not in every case; maybe not even in most cases. But it will happen, and that is why the rabbonim shlita are resolutely and vigorously opposed to it.
“A report button would be nice or maybe a “hide button”, if a few people do it, the post goes “into hiding” until it passes regular modding.”
I see all these wonderful ideas presented to fix the problems; when is someone going to volunteer to program all these great ideas into the system? 😉
“I’ve had better luck with shidduchim suggested by friends and family.”
Beautiful! That is the BEST route, bar none! Continue pursuing that route.
“I’m not comfortable approaching girls and asking them out directly, that’s not how I was brought up.”
And that is the proper way to bring up Bnei Yisroel. So your parents brought you up quite well. 🙂
Following this proper derech, is why we the shidduch crisis is not much worse than it currently is.
“Sometimes it is and sometimes it’s not.”
Use the ones that are. Don’t be so judgmental against shadchanim in general. They are far far from rare.
“My Rav actually suggested that I use one of these sites.”
Did he suggest Frumster particularly? If not, you ought to consult with him. These shadchan-free websites have many multitudes of dangers in utilizing them. I don’t think I need to enumerate the depth of this danger.
“I think I’d be more likely to use a site like frumster than SYAS. My reasoning is that on SYAS you have to deal with a shaddchan and if I understand correctly they call your references so other people would know you’re using the site (am I wrong about this?). With Frumster I think there’s less verification done so fewer people would know you’re using it (i.e. you can do it without your family knowing).”
boredjewish:
Dealing with a shadchan is a benefit.
If you are worried about people knowing you are using these websites, perhaps you should realize that you are worried as such since there is something untowardly about using them. Otherwise you wouldn’t be worried about people knowing you are engaged in this type of activity.
jw22: Did you miss the part in Pirkei Avos that says Asei L’cha Rav?
Wolfish, Again, I said before deciding to marry someone. You can ask the Rov once it comes to the point where you are considering marrying her/him.
jphone, Did you miss my comment about “a major life issue”?
Wolfish, When I said going through, I meant getting married.
Have you vetted every shadchan who suggested a shidduch through a Rav?
That wouldn’t be a bad idea. Though failing that, I would certainly strongly suggest getting Daas Torah prior to going through with any particular shidduch.
Frumster is essentially a shadchan.
There are serious issues about the medium in this case. Whether they are insurmountable or not, is a matter for Daas Torah.
jphone, I’m not sure it matters so much who their rabbinic backing is, so much as who your rabbinic authority is.
And yes, how and where one finds a shidduch is a major life issue that should be done with the benefit of Daas Torah.
The Sha’ar HaTzion (by the Chofetz Chaim) citing the Magen Avraham states the most appropriate way (mitzvah min hamuvchar) to recite the zimun is over a glass of wine, and for a woman to do that “is a disgraceful matter” [genai hadavar].
Wolfish,
My original paraphrasing of it was as clear as I can get. If you wish to nitpick on “this”, I must refer you to the original source.