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LuL:
I don’t think you’re allowed to take something offline just like that. You need a mesorah. You need to follow our Torah greats, out Torah leaders. Deciding for yourself what’s to be taken literally and what’s not is quite dangerous. ??? ????? ?? ????? we don’t make our own inroads…
If you’re following a Mefareah, a Tanna, Amorah, Rishon or Achron etc. it’s authentic. Otherwise it’s dangerous…
If Chazal say she grew a tail.. she grew a tail. Yes.. one that even little I could see. With my own eyes. Unless there’s a Torah giant that says it’s metaphoric, it means as it says. (in this case, grada, I heard/saw it means something of an appendage grew on her) Physical.
How do you know someone’s not the Gadol Hador because you got a bracha from him?
Lilmod Ulelamaid – it’s called live and learn… You’ll figure it out… Somethings are learned by experience..
But if you’re not interested in learning.. I’d suggest you stay within boundaries of rules..
Loosen up, LuL. This is the wild web. No, you’re not sitting in a classroom (either end) studiously, somberly, (gloomily..) taking, or worse – giving, a shiur, lesson, course or discourse.
This is the dangerous, tempestuous, wild web. With a slight Jewish twist. However Yeshivish… it’s still the web. A chat site with zealous, devoted, untiring Mods who do a FANTASTIC job at keeping us safe. But it’s a chat site, not a school building.
And most who come here, be it those who ‘live’ here or those who just chanced by (fell in), are looking to chill out. To unload. To upload. Share a good word, a quip, a smile. Brighten up someone’s life, one’s own life.
???? ?????? ?????? ????? That’s what it’s all about.
(ohh – look how much time I wasted typing that…)
I’m feebly attempting to impersonate myself.
Abba_S:
As I wrote, I’m totally with you.
LuL:
WOW!! So much English to read!! I really cannot read so much and go through each kasha, terutz, hava amina and maskana. Lately I have come aware of a life outside the CR (GASP!!!)
As to your question, why I changed my mind. I thought it over. While it was true that toeles in itself is not sufficient, I highly doubt this form of conversation ???? constitutes LH or MSR, for the reason I’ve written (the subject being anonymous). But I will bli neder ask a shaaloh.
I heard that everything SHOULD be taken literally beside a select few. One such is the begining of Perek hasfina in bva basra.
It’s not for us to backhandedly reject a piece of Gemarah “don’t take it literally”
OK, I’m going to try this once more (and then once more..)
I can’t possibly be saying Lashon Hara (or motzi shem ra, whatever you choose to call it) if I don’t know who I’m talking about. As long as I’m not saying anything derogatory “those people are crazy”, there’s no forbidden speech on saying possible theories why someone did what SOMEONE ELSE said he did. And there’s ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NOT to be mekabel.
The one who knows anything, knows what she knows. She knows the facts. And he’s offering possible reasons. Yes, she’s allowed to believe that Abba_s wrote it. And she’s of course allowed to think along those lines. Is she allowed to take it for certain? a) Why in the world would she? b) What’s the difference to her, she’s moving on in life.
And, in your case too, it’s probably permitted. For the same reasons I stated.
and about your friend’s 14 yr old chiddush – no, your not allowed to think it’s motzi shem ra, because you’re suspecting another Jew. Not being Mekabel means just that. Don’t believe (for certain). Nothing more – noting less. Don’t take it for granted.
(which by rote, these aforementioned cases are ALREADY excluded, as explained)
To sum: There is NO ISSUR on offering theories to the report of another anonymous persons actions, whatsoever.
Shopping: Are you insinuating that I’m a troll?!? How history repeats…
No, you wouldn’t want to get one down your throat!
Abba_S:
You’re so lucky you get to learn each day. I hardly know which way to operate a Gemarah!!
#1) Must be firsthand knowledge.
#2) Exactly as you wrote
#3) Also as you wrote – that is the ????? condition
#4) Read my apology above!!
#5) The condition to do it openly – because otherwise people would suspect you’re only gossiping. People are going to suspect you, and also the objective won’t be realized – for others to take note and do what’s necessary.
Note – these are all for sins of bein adam lamakom, as explained earlier.
GOSH!!!
What a misspelling. #4 should read “Not to exaggerate the sin”
I apologize, I’m at times so careless at my writing…
Abba_S: I did say (write) that for the first reason nothing at all wrong was done. I still hold by that. If it would be, Mods would have deleted it!!! They know what they’re doing!!
The conditions for permissible Lashon Hara (bein adam lamakom)
1)Firsthand knowledge
2)Examine if it’s really wrong
3)Not to talk out of hatred
4)Not to exaggerate the son
5)Not to speak secretly
Conditions of Lashon Hara (bein adam lachaveiro)
1)Firsthand knowledge
2)Research thoroughly if its really wrong
3)Rebuke the aggressor first
4)Intentions for benefit – ??????
5)Have no other option
6)Know that bigger damage to aggressor won’t result
7)Don’t exaggerate the report
Ach!! those good days… I had all the halachos written up, such an orderly fashion, on one paper! One side all hilchos lashon hara, the other side hilchos rechilus. I used to know something… Oh… those were the days…
LuL:
That’s quite a cute “Chiddush” of yours, that someone who is not sure if it’s true or not is automatically being motzi shem ra, even if it turns out it was true. I don’t think that’s the case. If you’re so sure, kindly back it up – I’d like to know.
Abba_S:
L’toeles in itself does not make it permissible, there needs to be 5 – 7 conditions met.
I am. I really (deep, deep down) am human. Not so little, but insignificant.
Also, I appear here to be intelligent, know what I’m talking about, which is generally not the case.
sorry for fooling all of you
LuL:
Just to indulge in technicalities:
Regarding point #1, he’s probably correct, since neither him nor us know who and what. And as far as the girl who does, well she KNOWS not to believe nor trust someone who cannot possibly know anything.
Point #2 he’s probably also right, technically. He’s saying HE cannot be accused of motzi shem ra if it’s not certain there’s a falsehood. (no, of course he is NOT PERMITTED, but he cannot be ACCUSED of motzi shem ra.)
Point #3 is wrong, as you wrote, as stated openly in the Chofetz Chaim.
WOW!! Mods, I didn’t know you mix in to our silly convos. You’re right, maybe I’ll still try. I don’t know everyone’s minhagim, so I can’t answer for everyone, but I DO KNOW that every legitimate Chassidus has broad shoulder, as I wrote. I changed my mind because I didn’t think it’s respectful that cute little i arbitrate or defend ideas and things Gedolei Olam have instituted. ??? ??? ????? ?????
I’m doing something about it. Who’s “US” I should notify? (please let us know..)
LuL:
In looking back now, I do see a post that was once not visible.
Unfortunately I have no knowledge of the Ger minhagim, nor of the Steipler’s ruling.
About walking on the table, well I know about some guys walking completely barefoot on HaShem’s holy ‘table’.
But, you know what? WinnieThePooh is correct. I don’t have to mix my pudgy little being into great mountains. Chassidim, as opposed to common theory or speculation, have great, great shoulders on whom to rely. There’s a CLEAR answer to each and every aspect of their minhagim, kulos and chumros. No, they aren’t just a wild horde of hooligans c”v.
If it really interests you, go to each community, as take up the issues (respectfully) with a leader, Rav, or Rabbi of that community. You’d be surprised!!!
Hmm…You challenged her somewhat strongly, I’m not sure it’s fair to just say you’ve changed your mind…(just my opinion)
RY:
I apologize if I hurt your feelings. Sometimes I don’t think properly before posting. Please be Mochel.
GOSH!!!
The above is supposed to read “I suspect these people are NOT going around…
(thinkerator slightly on the blink, blink, blink)
So how do you know I’m very also intentionally left blank? This was a secret only a few knew…
ZD: I suspect these people are going around, for the kicks, throwing around food. They are simply delivering from point A to point be in the most expedited, efficient manner. How else do you deliver to crowds of thousands ka”h, without causing bedlam?
??? ??? ????…
A person and his words are one. One’s speech define him/her, describe him/her. It echoes off one’s character.
And the opposite is also true. One who works to refine one’s speech will attain character refinement as well.
RY: You know me?!? I’m otta here….
That’s not the finger you use to start these (intentionally left blank) threads, is it?
LuL:
“She has a chiyuv to..”
In my humble opinion: She has a chiyuv to forget about him. That’s it.
Actually so very true. If they parted ways, both have a chiyuv to forget about each other. Sometimes it’s not easy, it takes time, but that’s what ultimately must be done.
LuL:
Very plain. Because the people wagging their tongues here have no idea who and what they’re talking about. They don’t know any of the subjects here. So obviously THEY are not talking about anyone specific. And the only one who does know, Lavender, knows that anyone else cannot know anything here, so of course she rejects any hogwash offered here!!! Because she’s the only one who DOES know anything.
Suppose I told you “The man you waited with at the bus stop this morning slipped a thirty dollar bill out of you purse while you weren’t looking”. Is that motzi shem ra? (well the mere fact I chose to do so…)
Thank you
Toeles does NOT automatically remove the prohibition. There are a lot of other criteria to satisfy. One and one of the main is to know for certain that it’s true. WHICH YOU MOST CERTAINLY DON’T. (unless you’re the ‘him’!!!) Do YOU know there’s no Rabbi?!? Do YOU know the underlying issue?!?
And pray tell what is your toeles. Do you think by joining the badwagan and automatically condemning, besmirching the one party, that the other will be mollified, comforted??
Today’s commonly known as “The Day After”
(then the dust settles.. and again..)
LiteBrite: To your question if someone had such an influential Rabbi and listened 100% – count me in!!!!
I had a few “tryouts”. One was told by my Rabbi it’s not for me… and dropped it. Yes, it hurt, nevertheless followed, did not doubt my Rabbi’s word, moved on… btw.. I found out later it would have been pretty bad…..
?? ???? ???? ??????? – all the more so by shidduchim when personal passions run amok… That’s why an unbiased higher view is always so important to be sought. And we’re pretty fortunate to have such a Rabbi we can follow…. A Rabbi who ????? ???? ????!!!
Why I put the word “minhag” in quotes? I’m referring to the “minhag” of calling one’s wife “Her na”. I don’t think it’s classifies as a minhag. And I don’t think it should be used in all circumstances, by all people. Some would cringe at hearing themselves addressed so. Others maybe wouldn’t mind. Why would anyone needlessly cause pain, discomfort to his own wife?
Writersoul, Lilmod Ulelamaid, Person1:
I see you are all relatively new to the CR. As they say: Welcome to the CR. Enjoy the ride!!! It’s all part of the fun!!
Gofish, is your question about throwing apples? While not the Minhag in our community, I understand it quite well. It’s not at all ??? ????? and is the fastest way to get from point A to point B. And btw I don’t think it’s the Rebbes who are throwing, I think it’s the Gabaim.
MODs, you question my ability… (kidding)
But if she has points, why not bring them out to discuss – enlighten.
?? ?? ???? ?????, minhagim were not just “invented” by a wold horde c”v. There’s a mekor, inyan, p’sak to all Minhagei Yisroel. And just because little i doesn’t know, doesn’t matter the least. I follow our community’s minhagim. And I try to understand the reasons. I try to understand the reasons for other communities actions as well.
(how should I know, I only know the regular ksav)
I think Rashi says ‘A woman is for ornaments’, that her husband should buy her jewelry to bedeck herself. Derogatory?!? I’d say lucky her!!! (p.s don’t show this to Frogette… I’m still happily married)
Don’t know, I’d think for women and girls it’s about showing our happiness about a Torah way of life. Even if not engaged in Torah study, there’s the Life of Torah every one in the Jewish nation can feel and relate to. And that’s what we’re all so happy, ecstatic about.
(my humble thought)
gofish: There’s no DEEP meaning. Plain Rashi suffices. And nothing, nothing whatsoever C”V derogatory about women. At all.
SHOOT!!!!
Let’s hear about them. And let’s hear who “the gedolim” are that are judging them as being against the halach.
And if she has good examples, you really want them posted? And if they are posted, you aren’t going to request they be deleted? This is not a very tenable request.
LuL: Yes, I heard about this “minhag” too
About your quandary (why would you be speaking to a friend’s husband?) I think him referring to his wife a “my wife” sets her apart from you, in a subtle way. We wish to remain an Am Kadosh, and we take steps necessary to be ?????? ?????? in any way. This is one way, setting a “boundary” through speech. So even when you must speak to a man, his wife is not “Soshie” but “My Wife”. That sets them apart. So much more so when he’s speaking about her (c”v no lashon hara) to another man.
How you address another man? I guess your method works. I know that sometimes I’m addressed as third person when in the presence of a bunch of girls/women, as a sign of tznius. It rubs me so bad, to me it’s so untznius. (“Would Little Froggie please come over”) Just say “you” – “could you come here?” So plain and simple. Nothing to it!!!
?? ????? to cast doubt at ???? ????? ?? just because YOU don’t know. Any group that’s headed by a Gadol has “platzos”, shoulders, for any deeds that seem improper in YOUR EYES. Checks and balances?!? Look, look hard, you’ll find it – MORE IN CHASSIDISHE CIRCLES!!!
Look up, do research, investigate, do homework before you dare castigate a community as a whole!!
How I wish we could all get along.
HaShem, in His wisdom, made both versions. Both TOGETHER bring something to the table. And make HaShem’s world a better place. Is a man “Better”?!? Is a woman?!? How silly. Anyone who has to keep harping on this topic…. shows ….
And I would suspect that Torah learning, Torah idea, etc, ought to be lishmah, not c”v ?????, to debate, to prove someone’s a fool. That’s not why we learn HaShem’s holy Torah.
They didn’t want to start doing it, they only wanted to practice… read the heading.
Oish!! You don’t have to post my NarishKites all over again…
But I wanted to further comment on my post earlier about bringing Shleimus to the world…
The job of the woman is to be ?? ?? ??, that is the way Adam in his Ruach Hakodesh defined human females. To beget,nurture and bring up children. That is her tafkid in life, doing so attains her Shleimus. Spending hours in davening, learning, deveikus etc. while maybe some sort of good feeling, is not the avodah of a woman. And by marrying and connecting to a true oved HaShem who can soar to great heights – that is they way she attains true Shleimus. Each one brings in his/her specialty, each one serves HaShem in the way He wanted – that is true Shleimus in the world.
Even a couple where the man does not totally dedicate himself for Avodas HaShem 24 hours, still, shleimus for the wife is child care and more home related, whereas for the husband at seeking a livelihood. Today some wives try to juggle both… kol hakavod, by some it’s a necessity.. still a woman’s specialty is her home while a man’s is out making ‘dough’ – ??? ??? ?????. That is the medrash about the woman taking the husband’s wheat and making bread out of it – ????? ??????.
May you meet true zivug b’karov and strive for true shleimus.
Actually it is a Mitzvah. Gemarah (somewhere) says ???? ?? ???? ??????? about Kidushin.
Nope. HaSHem hasen’t changed the essence or the makeup of the two different species. I really do NOT want to go into it, I’m really not comfortable getting deep into it. I’ll just state it as thus:
Women by nature tend to crave close relationship. It’s inherent, deep within them. Men by nature do not NEED this connection-relationship, their desire lie elsewhere (not for now).
This is the powerful “glue” HaShem in His wisdom set in motion. When you come to think of it, it almost seems miraculous- why should a women submit herself to a husband (and all it entails), go though childbirth etc.. And why in the world would a happy-go-lucky man want to link himself up with a woman just for some external features or other senseless attributes? It’s these miraculous forces at work. A woman knows she’s forgoing her freedom, ???? ????? ??, nevertheless ??? ??? ?????? she craves this, and does so most willingly. Man knows (most of them at least) what he’s in for by the time he’s ready to step under the Chuppa (unless they did a good job hiding), that’s the ??? ??? ??? ????? because ??? ??? ??? ?????. As Chazal say elsewhere ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????. All for one cause, to effect a “family”. That’s why we put the pasuk ???? ???? ??? ??? on a Tnaim.
Back to the first point, the deep relationship part, it is was and will be mostly the female’s inyan in the marriage. As I pointed out, that’s why there are all the single female support groups. In general, an unmarried female feels missing something.
Attention all yet unmarried, ??”? ?????!!! Then this whole narishkite won’t be nogea!!
ANON21: I know that, any you know that.
But the person under duress is in a entirely different situation. ??? ??? ???? ???? ????, and sometimes it gets overwhelming, the tzaar is too big for the person and he/she cries out in pain. Do you know the pasuk, ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? It’s for real! (interesting Gemarah and meforshim) And a person who cries out in anguished pain…. it’s quite a scary thing. No – she won’t be judged. On the contrary… you don’t want to be the recipeint!!!
The case in question – little me, and so many others here, ARE privy to the bit she had revealed… Suffice it to say no one would want or freely choose her pekel…
LuL: I don’t think it’s a Mitzvah to vent.. it’s rather a Mitzvah to lend an ear and lend a shoulder to someone venting… (if I’m not mistaking)
LuL: The fact that women in general want to get married more than men do, is straight from the pages of Gemarah. That idea is used many times throughout Talmud.
And, not that anyone has to chas v’sholom prove anything from our holy Talmud, it is interesting to note that there are so many single support groups, ideas how to stay happy etc. Even here that issue is generally the one that practically dominates the CR.