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2 part answer:
First, I do think that there is at least a tinge of irony that my wife any I both work full time and essentially end up very close to where we would be with 1/3 less income because of programs. The reason that we made certain choices was specifically to try and take responsbility.
NOTE: I think it is wonderful that Hashem provides so that everyone can get by,
However, for people coming into adulthood today and planning for the future, I think there needs to be an awareness of what a moderate lifestyle actually costs wihtout puttings oneself wehre they will rely on programs l’chatchila just because they can. You may answer that “why shouldn’t they because it is out there anyway” – perhaps that is a discussion for a different thread, but certainly does not fit under the focus of topic of this thread.
Second, I actually find a bit of the opposite. I find that, certainly with tuition, people who make a w2 are in a way “punished”. When I told someone who I know that I had a problem with my expenses, he told in kind of a resentful way to “stop complaining” and he didn’t care about “any fancy math” and that a million people would rather make the kind of money i make and that i didn’t deserve a tuition break, etc. I was actually taken aback because despite that his delcared income is substantially lower, his net is very close (especially when including parental support, etc, which adds up – even for little things likes car a car payment, yom tov expenses or children’s clothing – easily about 4,000-7,000 per year (which is essentially 7,000-10,000 salary dollars).
To be fair, i don’t think that anyone should look at anyone else and that if there was a greater degree of community responsibility a lot of people would have an easier, time – but that too is a conversation for another post.
Me 2:
That sounds relatively reasonably. I am sure people can nitpick, but there are also a lot of unexpected expenses that could take care of any discrepency.
From all of these posts it does not appear that on budgets of 125-150 in taxable income there is much room to cut or save; and they are certainly not what anyone would consider luxurious.
Ultimately, it appears that those making in the 70-85 range who don’t pay much in taxes (let alone that many seem to have off the books arrangements for at leaset partial income) and have programs, end up in the same ballpark as the 125-140 range (who pay between 1/3-1/4 of total salary) taxes and have to contribute to health insurance etc. and may even have 200-500 in student debt to contend with.
Do people in the lower range realize this? What about yeshiva tuition boards? Any comment?
First, I think Tomim is a tzadeikes and the most reasonable person I have ever met who is happy with what she has and is comfortable with her priorities. For those of you asking about whether she is spending a few extra dollars because of a water bill, STOP.
The original question that started this was – as a practical matter, how do people make it. Tomim was gracious enough to provide a budget which was very detailed. Leave her alone and Tomim- don’t be defensive. If anyone has a comment, please contribute so people can have an idea what the average flatbush (or wherever) family is really looking at. Noone is asking for your critique on others
To tell the truth, I would have a hard time spending 250/weekly on food including chol/shobbas/laundry detergent/soap/shampoo, etc. Additionally, (call me spoiled) I could not live without a car. Aside from shopping and getting around, kids have different schedules and there is no bus every other month for some legal holidays or another. There wouldn’t even be time to run around on a citibus (and taking an infant in the snow, etc).
Keeping that in mind, Tomim’s budget if you had 3 ror 4 kids and paid more taxes is at least 150 gross per year (first of all- noone in todays market has close to a 1,700 mortgage unless they had a lot of cash or someone gave them a huge downpaymnet. A 400k mortgage at about 5% is still in the 2700 range. Also add a car/gas/ins (maybe not a necessity, but certainly not a luxury in todays day and age), a bit for food and 3,000 for clothes etc is also very reasonable if you have to add in shobbas clothes and clothing and shoes for growing children and maybe even buy a new shitel once every 5 years. Not mention shuls and schools who want you to come to their dinner, a sibling in lakewood who wants your ma’aser (which is not provided for in the budget, but then again, if you are living on that budget, you are either no chayav in ma’aser or are using it for tuition – [please don’t start a thread on whether that is ok – you do not have to go into debt for ma’aser and tomim’s money is accounted for]
Therefore, if anyone else (especially those who seem to be judgement car to share bit) – how people make it on less – especially those who seem to say they make it on less than 80 net and that eveyone making 6 figures is pointlessly complaining.
Lets be honest – are you really living on any less than that budget? If so – where? (or is it just a don’t pay taxes, get benefits, don’t pay tuition issue). Is everyone who makes a w2 salary just in the same place as had they not been “responsible” gone to school and trying to work.
By the tomim – you should stay home and be with your kids. By the time you are done with day care expenses which will likely be off the books, you will work and not make much more than that anyway.
For those of you who think that the post is not constructive, then feel free not to read it.
I will tell you that me and my wife are both educated and have jobs making above average what other people our age are making (aside from help that people may be getting). From looking at things through the eyes of having 3-5 children, one used minivan and rent on a 3 bedroom, I used to look around and think that everyone was making loads and loads of money.
I agree that Hashem provides (just look around; people are not homeless) – but I guess I was unclear in the level of hishtadlus that I am supposed to put in. Hashem provides does not absolve one from determining the appropriate level of responsibility. For those of you who think it does, you have never learned through sha’ar habitachon. Putting your head in the sand is not the same as having bitachon.
I know that people make less than our approximate 100k and am greatful.
But after taxes (100-30= 70), contribution to health insurance (70-7=63), rent (63-24=39), food (39-18=21 [at 1,500 per month]) that leaves $21,000.
$21,000 does not cover my tuition bill, so that I am already a begger, although schools are not inclined to give us a break because like others have said, 100k seems like a lot of money to be making.
I have not added in any clothing, gas, car insurance, or life expenses that come up, not to mention heat, electric, yom tov, let alone light bulbs, exterminator, plumber…(forget vacation or eating out – not happening)and for women who work more than part time and need child care?
For those who say, Hashem provides – I agree. I am not trying to be bitter or make people feel bad that they make less.
I know that this post in anonymous – so feel free to share – how is there a leased odysee in every other driveway? How do people buy houses? Your answer may be that I should move out of town, which I have considered – so does that mean that most people are in fact making a lot more than 100-150? I considered Lakewood, but my wife’s job is tied to New York and it would only increase our expenses. And we couldn’t afford a house with property taxes there anyway.
If anyone would share their income or budget and just explain why I am so far off – please let me know. Alternatively, just tell me that I am supposed to start working weekends and waitering shobbas kiddushim. Please understand that I am sincere in asking – should I not be getting a break on tuition just because I make so much money – and even more so…if not, are yeshiva rates designed just to bleed people dry because I do not think based on the above that I am living so crazy (remember, i did not leave any money over for clothing or light bulbs)…
Thank you for your insight.
Please separate the questions. As far as what a family needs:
First, things seem somewhat unsustainable. But assuming that with a modest mortgage, maintaining a car and a minivan and 3 or more tuition pay?ment,s it is at the very least in the 150+ range (assuming you are paying full, so 150 is probably on the low side) I am curious if people are actually coming close to that range.
What do most people here think that the average family in the ages 28-45 is making)? Are people professionals? Paying taxes? using benefits? honest with the schools about how much they make? making cash? in “real estate” (whatever that may actually meant) ?using schtick?
I agree in principle, but I think you also need to take a step back and realize that it is (unfortunately only) during times like this that Yiddin all band together as family regardless of ‘sibling rivalry’ and other disputes. While it is incredibly easy for people to be omed on everyone else’s bein odom l’makom, people have different challenges. In your long list of examples, you fail to all but mention one aspect of bein odom l’chaveiro (lashon horah).
While situations like this are incredibly difficult and I cannot even imagine how a Father could inflict this degree of pain on his children, the only things that can possibly be said is that the rest of the Jewish family becomes stronger in face of adversity. It is wonderful gather an asifah and address lack of tznius affecting every negative consequence that occurs in the places that are realistically speaking the most tznius places in the world (boro park, lakewood, etc). Perhaps the glaring lack of achdus among those who are supposed to be closest to G-d should be the first place to look – as it seems that that may be what Hashem wants.
Next time you see someone from Young Israel walking with a baby stroller on Shobbas, try saying Good Shobbas with a smile instead of Good Yom Tov. This will also foster more good will toward everything that you are trying to represent rather than a sentiment that people are all form over substance being frim at the expense of religion.