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Where is the source for that? Did the BHT write it himself – in which case please find me a link – or does it come from the fictionalized account of the Rayatz?
See Beis Rebbi (footnote Beis).
And while the book was written by a Chabad Chossid, he wasn’t a Lubavitcher, he was a Kopuster, so the last mutual Rebbe we had was the Tzemach Tzedek.
There have always been problems, the question is just whether we can respectfully disagree or if one side feels the need to enforce their shittas as the only correct path.
Tell me, how are we not respectfully disagreeing? The most disrespectful thing we said is that we think everyone should learn Chassidus (not necessarily Chabad)? How much more disrespectful is this compared to Reb Yisroel Salanter’s campaing to bring Mussar to the Yeshiva world (which was controversial in its day (“Mussar is a medicine” vd”l)).
Can this be compared to the literal nonsense that people made up about Chabad? You know, like Tomchei Tmimim learns Tanya or Likkutei Sichos all day (Jokes on them. There is no Seder to learn either. Both are learned outside Seder. We literally don’t learn the Rebbe’s works during Seder. Even the Chassidus that we learn, is 90% of the time the 5th Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Maamorim. And that’s 3 hours a day. The rest of the time – the same Gemara/Rishonim and Shulchan Aruch you do. OK. We learn Shulchan Aruch HaRav since we do Paskin like him, but on Simanim where we don’t have Shulchan Aruch HaRav, like Hilchos Chanuka, we do learn Mishna Brura.) or how Lubavitch is all Frei (answered a few posts before), or how Lubavitch does Mivtzoyim all day (again, we only do Mivtzoim Friday afternoon when all Yeshivas don’t have Seder anyways). Forget about all the claims that every story said by Lubavitchers was maliciously invented to put down the Yeshivish velt (also Lo Haya VeLo Nivra, and also answered above). Is this called “respectfully disagreeing”?
Listen, Reb Moshe respectfully disagreed with the Rebbe. Many times. And publicly, it’s all printed in Igros Moshe. But if you’ll notice, we have no Taynas on him. Lubavitchers sent him Shaalos. Because he was actually respectful about the disagreement. Kach Darkah Shel Torah.
You were literally just talking about how it’s standard Chabad practice to mention the name of Rav Schneerson ZT”L when davening so he can be a meilitz. That’s what I mean by “insert said leaders name into tefilos”.
Huh?! You go to a Rov and say “please daven for me”. That’s all we’re doing. Like the Minchas Yitzchak above. We don’t Ch V”Sh pray to him.
And when I compared Chabad learning R’ Schneerson’s writings more in depth than Gemara I meant it too. Don’t try to compare him and his publishers to the Rambam and Ibn Tibn who had rishonim vet the publication and writings. R’ Scheerson, for all his gadlus, was no Rambam. And the Chabad rabbonim are no Rishonim.
Ok. Not like the Rambam. Like a major Acharon who was Medayek. If you found a Shver Gra”ch, would you farenter with Lomdus or would you just say “typo”. Especially if you have the Ksav Yad.
By the way, in the spirit of things I’d like to ask y’all a few questions back:
1. What Hetter is there, in Shas or Poskim, for Yeshiva Bochurim to not daven a proper Chazaras HaShatz by Mincha? Now even if you’ll Taanah that back in Slabodka (where I think this minhag originated) they lived Toraso Umnaso, how does this apply in the US, where you have breaks for lunch and breakfast, and in some Yeshivas for Limmudei Chol. I find it hard to believe that you can’t find 5 minutes in a day to do a Chazaras Hashatz like the Chachamim decreed.
2. What’s the Maaseh with Brisk and fasting? I’ve been hearing jokes about “Pikuach Nefesh”. I definitely hope that no one has ever broken a fast without a proper doctor’s note.
3. What’s the deal with shaving? Yes, I know that most Litvishe Poskim are Mattir, but there are places which say that it’s Assur. And nobody says that it’s a Mitzvah. So why do Yeshivas require their Bochurim to put themselves in a possible Issur DeOraisa.
Even a Gemara isn’t given to the same interpretation that Chabad lends to לקוטי אגרות.
Never learned Rambam? Never seen the Nosei Keilim give Dachuk answers just to avoid saying “The Rambam erred”
nor has anyone ever made it a minhag to insert said leaders name into teffilos.
Where do we do that? I never heard of such a thing.
Also, speaking of Doresh El HaMeisim, see the beginning of the third Perek of Brachos where several Tanayim and Amoraim talking to Neshamos and receiving answers from them. Oh, and also see the Shivchei HaAri.
– Please answer, why Chabad desired to open a chabad house in kiryat sefer, the frummest chareidist community in the world, where there is no kirv to be done and no one to be mekarev,
Let me answer with a question. When the Baal Shem Tov was around, did he spread Chassidus only to the secular Jews of his time? What about the Mezritcher Maggid? For that matter, the Mezricher Maggid was a huge Lamdan before he became a Chossid. Why didn’t the Baal Shem Tov leave him as is? What about the Toldos Yaakov Yosef, Reb Pinchas Koretzer, Reb Michel Zlotchover? They were all big Lamdanin.
Also, please explain the video where Cunin (again, one of, if not THE most influential chabadsker on the west coast) proclaims unambiguously that the rebbe runs the world.
צדיק גוזר והקב”ה מקיים
“No you moron, we’re not asking the rebbe to answer our tefillos, Hashem answers tefillos, Rebbes are, at most, a meilitz yosher”
Here you go, I’ll say it- “No you moron, we’re not asking the rebbe to answer our tefillos, Hashem answers tefillos, Rebbes are a meilitz yosher”
which is why the Nusach of a Pidyon in Chabad is “Ana LeOrer Rachamim Rabim” not “Rebbe, give me a pony NOW”.
We ask for a Bracha.
Oh. And just for the record. We don’t worship the Rebbe. We don’t treat him as a G-d (ChV”sh).
I do laud Chabad’s strictness with regards to eruvim. And, you are right that–on average–Lubavitchers are more likely to be machmir here than American Litvaks. Just one fact check: you said it’s more normal in the Chassidish world to be machmir on eruvin. This is not true. Most Chassidim have a mesora to be meikel in this halachah. Even to the degree that many hold by the Brooklyn eruvin.
Yeah. I meant the other things. Eiruvin happen to be one of the things that the Chassidisher happened to be mote lenient about. Although I’ve seen plenty Litvish people rely on Eiruvin.
We don’t believe the Baal HaTanya was personally commissioned to write a S”A for all Chassidim
That’s not from the Frierdiker Rebbe. That’s from the Alter Rebbe’s sons in their first print of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav.
And the commission wasn’t just for “Chassidim”.
ובעודו עומד לפני ד’ שם (במיזריטש) נתעורר רוח קדשו של מורו… ומפני שצרכי ישראל מרובים ובפרט בצוק העתים הללו שהיוקר יאמיר וטרדת הפרנסה על כל אחד ואחד בנפשו יביא לחמו ועל כן דעתם קצרה לבוא בארוכה בעיון ים התלמוד והפוסקים לידע מוצא הדין בארוכה ומילתא בטעמא דוקא. וגם לגדולים אשר להם יד ושם בתלמוד תכבד עליהם העבודה להכריע בין הפוסקים לאסוקי שמעתתא אליבא דהלכתא על פי הסכמת האחרונים, כי ברוב המקומות יש דעות מחולקות… אשר על כן משמיא אסכימו על ידי הרב הקדוש הנ”ל (“המגיד”) לחפוש בחפש מחופש בתלמידיו למצוא איש אשר רוח אלקים בו להבין, להורות הלכה ברורה… ולסדר כל פסקי דינים הבאים בשו”ע ובכל האחרונים בלשון צח מילתא בטעמא, ויבחר בכבוד אאמו”ר ז”ל (“הרב”) והפציר בו עד בוש ואמר לו אין נבון וחכם כמוך לירד לעומקה של הלכה לעשות מלאכה זו מלאכת הקודש להוציא לאור תמצית ופנימית טעמי ההלכות הנזכרים כל דברי הראשונים והאחרונים זקוקים שבעתיים כל דבר על אופניו בלי בלבול ותערובות ופסק ההלכה המתברר ויוצא מדברי כל הפוסקים כל חכמי זמננוYou can see the whole thing here and the next few pages.
Just to note the sources were usually Chabad sources
The Minchas Yitzchak’s Chabad?
Since I joined another well-known but much smaller chassidus about a year after Gimel Tamuz I have witnessed less than twenty cases of drunkenness. But when I go to a Lubavitch wedding of one of my relatives there are always at least two drunks. And they are not the town drunks as they seem to rotate the honor.
Yes. The Rebbe explicitly tried stopping that. Many times. It just has an extremely old history (it’s been going on back in Russia for a long time). And while it’s hard to break old habits, there is definitely a growing awareness among that drinking more than 4 is simply not Chassidish. So while it’s wrong, we all know it’s wrong.
In category 2 we have “drinking is not a problem in Lubavitch” “proper tznius is not lacking in Luvabitch” “there are no real major fights between Lubavitchers” “shluchim don’t act in a selfish manner” and others.
So out of those points, it’s simply not true that we don’t realize these things. The “no more than 4” Takana is there and Mashpiyim talk about it. People who care what the Rebbe said, won’t drink more than 4, and those who don’t care, do whatever they want anyways.
The thing with Tznius is that I’m a guy, so I don’t know the details. But what I’ve heard from someone who’s hanging out with Lubavitch and Litvish is that it really depends on which circles within Chabad you frequent.
The thing with Lubavitch is that there’s no such thing as “membership ID”. You have people who aren’t shomer Shabbbos yet who come to a Chabad house and call themselves “Chabad”. I don’t know how this works in other Chassidic circles, but practically anyone can walk into a Chabad shul and eat the herring, and no one will check if you put on Rabbeinu Tam that morning. So you have people that aren’t careful about Tznius who can call themselves Chabad, you have people that aren’t careful about anything who can call themselves Chabad.
So it’s true that in other communities, someone who, say, has a TV at home will be asked to leave the school system and will be made uncomfortable in the community. I’m not blaming those communities, it makes sense – you don’t want to give a Hechsher to their behavior.
But when you compare Crown Height to something, you can’t just compare it to Lakewood. You really have to compare it to Lakewood + Flatbush + Modern Orthodox, and it’s not fair to blame Chabad for Chabad lite and not blame Brisk for YU.
But the truth is that there are plenty of Frum Lubavitchers. I mean, beards, Pas Yisroel and Chalav Yisroel is a baseline. I don’t think I ever walked into a Chabad house serving not Pas Yisrael or Chalav Yisrael foods. The most popular boys Cheder, by far, in Crown Heights doesn’t teach Limmudei Chol (and Man Dachar Shmei teaching Greek Mythology or novels), Kal Vachomer college is totally and completely forbidden in any Lubavitch Yeshiva. I can just imagine the look on Rabbi Labkovsky’s (the Rosh Yeshiva in 770) or Reb Yoel Kahan (the Mashpiya (Lubavitch equivalent of Mashgiach) of 770) face if you tell him that you want to go to college while in 770, or Rabbi Heller (the Rosh Kollel in Crown Heights) for that matter. Even after Kollel it’s heavily frowned at, and I don’t just mean secular college. I’m talking about places like Touro. The people who can, speak Yiddish to their children, and many send their children to Chadarim where the Melamdim teach only in Yiddish. Those who can’t (because they’re Israelis or because they’re BTs) obviously don’t. But it’s not out of the norm. And yes, there are many Lubavitch families without internet, or with heavily filtered internet, who won’t even go to Frum news sites because of Bittul Zman (which is why there are so few of us here, and the ones that do come here tend to be on the lighter side). All the more so that it’s a normal thing that Movies (old, clean, kosher, children’s. Doesn’t matter. Still Traif), sports, non-Jewish/not-Frum music (doesn’t matter if it’s clean or classical. Still Traif.) and non-Jewish/not-Frum books is completely Mufrach, and even regular Frum novels are “Ehh – it’s borderline.”
In terms of Kashrus, being Makpid of Heimisher Hashgachos is quite common, and in Israel there are plenty of people who’ll only eat Badatz Eidah HaChareidis and Rav Landau Bnei Brak.
There are plenty of people in Lubavitch who finish Shas. Some of them made big events for their Siyum which showed up online. I knew quite a few who didn’t. And remember that Lubavitch is a relatively small movement. Crown Heights has what, a few thousand families? And that’s the largest Chabad community in North America.
We don’t rely on big-city Eiruvin, and only the litest of the lite Crown Heightsers rely on its Eiruv. And the same applies to other cities.
And while I do admit that all this is fairly normal in the Chassidisher world, it definitely isn’t in the (American) Litvishe world, and definitely not by many of those who criticize us for not being Frum enough.
Of course this isn’t the only time he denigrates misnagdim in his memoirs. IT’s part of his purpose in writing the book!
If you’ll notice, the Frierdiker Rebbe doesn’t deingrate all misnagdim. If you’d have read his Sichos carefully, you’ll notice that he never denigrated the Gra[1], for example, and neither did he denigrate the Nodah BeYehuda, Reb Chaim Volozhiner, the Shaagas Arye, the Toras Yekusiel, and all the more so the latter Frum non-Chassidic Rabbonim (Where does the Frierdiker talk bad about Reb Chaim Brisker or the Chofetz Chaim? Where does he bad mouth the Beis Heilivi or Reb Chaim Ozer?) To the best of my knowledge, almost none of the Misnagdim there were named!!
But the main thing is that among the “Misnagdim” (which just means “those opposed to Chassidim[2]”) there were two camps:
1. There were the Frum Misnagdim. People like the Gra, who opposed Chassidus because he was scared that what the Baal Shem Tov started was a way to get people OTD.
2. There were the Maskilish Misnagdim – around the time of the Alter Rebbe and the Gra the Haskala movement was getting started in Russia, and while at that time they were still technically and culturally frum, they were holding on by a thread. Really, all they had in common with the Frum Misnagdim was that they kept the same Nusach, learned Gemara studiously, and were against “Pnimiyus HaTorah for the masses”. But since they externally looked frum, they ended up getting lumped together with the “Frum Misnagdim” into one basket called “Misnagdim”.
So though they did the same things, they had diametrically opposed goals:
Frum Misnagdim davened Nusach Ashkenaz because of Minhag Avoseinu. Maskilim davened Nusach Ashkenaz because “why not”. Frum Misnagdim learned Gemara because “Talmud Torah Keneged Kulam” while the Maskilim learned Gemara because it’s intellectually much more stimulating than the Zohar. Frum Misnagdim held that Kabbalah should be learned after one is full of Shas and Poskim, while the Maskillim felt that there’s no point learning it anyways, as it’s all (Ch V”sh) nonsense.
So if you’ll notice the people the Frierdiker Rebbe had issues with, it’s the Maskilim and the proto-Maskilim. People who didn’t care to Daven and were just being Yotzei Zain and people who were learning hard so they’d be able to find the biggest Kullos. That doesn’t sound like the Brisker Derech to me.
Within a few decades (around the time of the Tzemach Tzedek), the Maskilim went public, and it’s interesting that right after that the Charomim ended and the Frum Litvishers started working with Chassidim (including Lubavitch).
But the truth is, I don’t remember ever seeing him say anything about those who had a machlokes on him. He just never brought it up.
And you know what, I think that quite impressive.
[1]. If anything, we say that he was a tremendous Gaon and the Tzemach Tzedek quotes his works on Niglah. The only thing is that he made a mistake[3] about what Chassidus was.
[2]. They didn’t just oppose the Alter Rebbe, by the way. The Charomim started in the Baal Shem Tov and Mezritcher Maggid’s times.
[3]. Considering that you’re a Chossid, I’d assume that you’d agree that your Rebbe’s Rebbe’s Rebbe wasn’t a Koifer and a Min.Also, just remembered a point.
Tell me, is it forbidden to learn Chumash while traveling on a donkey?
Yet, the Gemara says (Chagigah 14b)
>מעשה ברבן יוחנן בן זכאי שהיה רוכב על החמור והיה מהלך בדרך ור’ אלעזר בן ערך מחמר אחריו אמר לו רבי שנה לי פרק אחד במעשה מרכבה אמר לו לא כך שניתי לכם ולא במרכבה ביחיד אלא א”כ היה חכם מבין מדעתו אמר לו רבי תרשיני לומר לפניך דבר אחד שלמדתני אמר לו אמור
מיד ירד רבן יוחנן בן זכאי מעל החמור ונתעטף וישב על האבן תחת הזית אמר לו רבי מפני מה ירדת מעל החמור אמר אפשר אתה דורש במעשה מרכבה ושכינה עמנו ומלאכי השרת מלוין אותנו ואני ארכב על החמורWhen when Rabbi Elazar ben Arach was traveling with Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai and wanted to Darshen in Maaseh Merkava, Yabbi Yochanan stopped his donkey, wrapped himself in a Tallis and sat on a stone. When Rabbi Elazar Ben Arach asked for an explanation, Rabbi Yochanan said “Can you Darshen in Maaseh Merkava, the Chechina will be among us and the Malachim will escort us while we’re sitting on a donkey?”
Tell me, is Maaseh Merkava holier than Chumash?
Sorry. That was a type.
It should have said “not Simchas Torah, and not even Purim”.
There’s no requirement to drink on Simchas Torah. There is one on Purim. And although we traditionally didn’t rely on the Rama’s hetter, due to Yeridas Hadoros we can’t drink the right way anymore.
Just a small questiont faceBURN yes or no, are you arguing with the friediker Rebbe and saying that this story is false? And if yeah (which I hope not, just I don’t see that in your words) who are you to say such a thing?. Not only that, you say that “it’s disgusting” for the friediker Rebbe to put words in the Bal hatanyas mouth.
Not only is he saying that the story is false (with practically no source), but that
1. The Frierdicker Rebbe invented it. Not that he had a tradition about it, not that there was a tradition that burtface didn’t have (which would be quite expected. The Frierdiker Rebbe was born in 5640. The Alter Rebbe was arrested in 5558 or so. He was born within a generation of the event. And considering that he was a son of the Rebbe Rashab, he had access to many Chassidim, including a few of the Alter Rebbe, that others didn’t. And considering that anyone burntface saw in Lubavitch was, at most, a bochur in the Rebbe Rashab’s times, there’s no way for him to be able to say “I was around the same time and no one heard the story”). Not even that there was a broken telephone, or that the person he heard it from made a mistake. Not even that the person he heard it from invented it. No. He invented it, all on his own.
2. He said this so we’d “get drunk an extra day”. That’s what the Rebbe and Frierdicker wanted. For us to be drunk. You know, they made a Takanah for us to drink at least 770 ounces a day of 77.0% alcohol /s.
For all those who don’t get the reference. The Rebbe said, time and time again, and the Frierdicker Rebbe said, that Mashke is a disgusting drink, and the Rebbe said, many times, that anyone who calls himself a Lubavitcher may not drink more than a Revy’is (Following Reb Avrohom Chaim No’eh’s shiur 🙂 ) of Mashke a farbrengen (the famous “no more than 4 rule”).
And that’s an absolute maximum. If you’ll get Shikkur on less than that, you can’t have that either. And there are no exceptions. Not Yud Shevat, not Purim, not even Simchas Torah, Nada.
The Teshuva Meahava 26 was upset when they compared the Zohar to the Torah.
Did you read the rest of the Teshuva?! I hope you don’t hold like that. At least I was under the impression that the modern Frum velt holds that the Zohar was written by the Rashbi.
Wow! The Tanya must really be heilig!! Not only a chumash, but they won’t even put Likutei Sichos or maamarim on top of it!
Ever heard of such a thing as a Leshitascha?
Even Leshitascha, that we respect the Rebbe too much, we wouldn’t have a problem with a Gemara or a Mishna, or a Ketzos, Nesivos, or Igros Moshe for that matter on top of a Likkutei Sichos.[1]
[1]. Do I get put in Cheirem for comparing a Mishna to an Igros Moshe? Or for saying that I’d put an Igros Moshe on top of a Gemara?
Oh No. Someone’s writing to a Tzaddik after he passed away!! It’s terrible!!
Quick. We should invent a time machine so you all would be able to go back in time to the Minchas Yitzchak. You’d definitely teach him a thing or two about Kefira and Doresh El HaMeisim.