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As to the Rambam you keep quoting, I have already replied that it doesn’t apply nowadays as we can’t do what the Rambam finishes off his halocho with, i.e. punishing those who don’t in beis din. Don’t you think it noteworthy that the Rambam writes specifically לכוף which means “force” them to keep mitzvos? Is that what the lubavicher rebbe said to do?
If Halacha would say “You’re not allowed to carry on Shabbos, and if you do, you’re Chayav Misah”, would you say that it’s muttar to carry on Shabbos since we don’t have a Sanhedrin? If we have no Achrayus on them, and them keeping the 7 mitzvos is bad, then even if we could do the second half, why should we force them to keep anything?
This doesn’t work within any normal system of determining or even defending a halacha.
What, that feeling guilty is called enough Tzaar to avoid sleeping in a Sukkah?
Also, @RSo, about Rebbe pictures, I’ve found the following attributed to the Shevet KaKehati (I don’t have a copy. If there’s a way for someone with an Otzar HaChochma to put a picture up, it would be helpful – the Maar Makom is שו”ת שבט הקהתי חלק ב’ סימן ג אות ב):
יש מי שכתב שבעל נפש לא יזרוק תמונות של צדיקים בדרך בזיון
But what I did find, was the following from the Tzitz Eliezer. He was discussing putting Tzaddikim’s pictures on stamps. First he wrote that since there are sources that one shouldn’t have their picture taken, it’s not a positive thing to have those pictures publicized, but he writes in a Snif at the end:
ועוד זאת , הא הרבה מהתמונות יתגלגלו לאחר מיכן ברחובות ובשווקים ורוב העם לא ינהגו בם בכבוד הראוי כי אם ההיפך מזה וד”ל.
Which implies that there is some “Kavod HaRaui” to pictures of Tzaddikim.
Chossid: “And nossi hador is made up by the Rebbe?”
Yes, and I have proven it.
The words themselves. Could be. The concept (A singular Ispashtusa DeMoshe), you didn’t.
והנה הצדיק שיש בו ניצוץ משה, הוא המנהיג את הדור וכל החכמים שבדורו טפלים לו, כי הם ענפים שלו
דגדול הדור נקרא כן שהוא ניצוץ משה רבינו ע”ה עצמו המתגלגל בכל דור
Both are singular.
Furthermore, this case is off the subject. The Rabbonim instituted the practice you are objecting to, they are not coming to justify it expo facto.
And @Rso
My point was not about not sleeping in the sukkah, it was about the weird lomdus your rebbe used to explain it, a point that was recently reiterated by rockstar.
There’s a general klal that you don’t need as strong of a Svara to legitimize an existing Minhag than to innovate a new one.
Do I know you?
How do I know? 🙂
That’s not a very compelling defense.
Why is “Chabad Light” our problem, while “Modern Orthodox” is not yours?
I know I’m going to get into BIG trouble for this one, but note that Sefer HaSichos 5699 was said by the Rayatz who, as I have said before, was very “creative” in telling us history.
He is also the one who told us the story about Moshe Rabbeinu sending malachim to get esrogim from Calabria, and once again he cited the Baal Hatanya as the source.
Has anyone ever heard of the expression that ends “ירחיק עדיו”? (I told you I’d get into trouble for this.
1. I did respond to your earlier sunidal post. Also, the story doesn’t say what time of year it took place, and for how long was it broken. It could have been broken for a few weeks in the middle of the winter.
2. Even Leshitascha, there’s a big difference between writing fiction, as you like to call it euphemistically, and this. Writing a novel how the Brisker Rov went back in time to fight with the Chashmonaim is fiction. Writing how he ate Basar BeChalav and found a hetter isn’t fiction. It’s either true, or false. If it’s false, it could be that he trusted a person who made a mistake, or whatever. But you hold that he made it up. The thing is, that making up these things isn’t “fiction”, it’s much worse. So maybe you think that the Frierdiker Rebbe wanted to stop Chassidim from sleeping in a Sukkah, so he made up the thing that the the Mitteler Rebbe told Chassidim not to sleep in a Sukkah. Maybe you think that the Frierdiker Rebbe was to lazy to eat Seudah Shlishis, so he made that his father often didn’t eat Seudah Shlishis. But it isn’t fiction.
3. But here, this is all irrelevant. No one argues that the Frierdiker Rebbe said that Sicha, and the Minhag was already established long before the Rebbe became Rebbe. So even Leshitascha, the blame should be on the Frierdiker Rebbe (if he invented it), not the Rebbe, and on the Mitteler Rebbe otherwise. But the way people talk about the Sicha is a strawman.
4. The thing is, as I pointed out earlier, many communities have minhagim which violate Halacha. There’s no debate that early Chassidim Davened late (after Zman Tefilla), and there’s absolutely nowhere in Shulchan Aruch which lets you daven late for the sake of Kavana. Or, as SHY pointed out, many other communities didn’t sleep in a Sukkah. Or, as I pointed out earlier, many Litvish Yeshivas do a Heicha Kedusha. Yet, I never heard a peep from anyone against those Rebbes or Roshei Yeshivas. Yes, some Poskim said that a Heicha Kedusha is wrong and shouldn’t be done, but I’ve never heard anyone say that whichever Rosh Yeshiva started it, or Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky who legitimatized it, isn’t a Gadol because of that.
Some questions:
1)Do you ask Hashem or The Rebbe when you ask the Igros?2) If it’s the Rebbe, can you use
a)Just the igrois
b)any of The Rebbe’s seforim
c)any sefer in the world
d)any sign in the world (eg, “Rebbe, show me your listening”, and then you see a picture of the Rebbe)3) Can I ask just the Rebbe, or can I ask any of the Chabad rebbeim? For that matter, can I ask Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe?
4)Why isn’t the Igros an issur deoiraisa of Lo Senachesh? Your asking for a sign from heaven (even from Hashem that’s assur, and Gorel Hagra was done very rarely and with lots of preperation precisely to avoid this issur)
First of all, there is absolutely no source in the Rebbes teachings to ask Igros. Zero. The Rebbe said that everyone should appoint himself a Mashpiya, and if one doesn’t know what to do (and this, by the way, was already true before 94 – there was never a time in Lubavitch, at least not in the past two generations, that the average Chossid was able to just shmooze with the Rebbe. There just wasn’t enough time for this), he should ask a Rov for Halachic shaylas, a doctor for medical issues, or knowledgeable friends for business questions.
The Hergesh started after the Rebbe’s passing, and I’ve never heard it ever officially encouraged (as it is absolutely sourceless), and I’ve heard a few Rabbonim (including Meshichist ones, by the way) argue against it. It seems to share a common source with the Goral HaGra, but as it’s a Hergesh, there are obviously no rules. I mean, I would definitely feel uncomfortable addressing a Rebbe picture, and I’m almost positive that in all the places that I’ve seen which talks about Rebbe pictures, nowhere did the Rebbe say that they’re to be used for communicating with him.
Note also, that the point of the Hachanos for a Goral HaGra is to get an answer. If it would be Nichush, no amount of preparations would permit it. But if you look at the Poskim who permit the Goral HaGra, they don’t mention anything about being “prepared”. The Hetter is from “Ki Hu Chayeinu”.
But there’s generally no problem asking questions of dead people. Look at the beginning of the third Perek of Berachos. So yes, you can ask Reb Moshe or Avraham Avinu, and there shouldn’t be any Halachic problems.
And the Arizal would talk to the souls of those who passed away, and would learn Torah from them – implying a two way communication:
ועתה אכתוב מקום קברות הצדיקים, כפי אשר קבלתי ממורי זלה”ה, וכבר הודעתיך כי הוא היה רואה ומסתכל בנשמות הצדיקים, בכל מקום ובכל זמן, ומכ”ש בהיותו על קבריהם, ששם נפשותיהם עומדות כנודע, גם מרחוק עיניו יביטו בנפש הצדיק העומד על הקבר שלו, ועי”ז היה יודע קבר כל צדיק וצדיק, והיה מדבר עמהם, ולומד מהם כמה סתרי תורה.
(From the Kakdama to Shaar HaGilgulim)
I miss Sechel and Username.
Thanks
Claiming that all of Klal Yisroel outside Chabad somehow falls short is completely out of line.
I’m not saying your falling short. I’m saying that there’s a debate over the Shiur of one’s respect to their Rov/Rebbe.
@everyone. Here’s an explicit Pri Tzadik (From Reb Tzaddok HaKohen of Lublin):
ובכל דור יש גם כן נפש או נפשות של ראשי אלפי ישראל הכוללים כמה אלפים נפשות. ויש ראשי הדור שהם כוללים נפשות כל אותו הדור דוגמת משה רבינו ע”ה ובהם שורש ממשה וכמו”ש האריז”ל על לשון משה שפיר קאמרת דגדול הדור נקרא כן שהוא ניצוץ משה רבינו ע”ה עצמו המתגלגל בכל דור ובגמ’ (ברכות נח 🙂 דר”ח בריה דרב איקא בירך על ר”פ ור”ה ברי’ דר”י חכם הרזים וא”ל כיון חזתינכו עלואי כששים ריבוא וא”ל חכימת כולי האי כו’ ע”ש וחשבו זה לחכמה גדולה שהשיג על ידי ראייתו אותם [עד”ש בזוהר יתרו ע”פ ואתה תחזה] שהם חשובים כששים ריבוא היינו שנפשותם כוללות נפשות כל הדור וכלולים מס’ רבוא דיעות.
Note this part:
וכמו”ש האריז”ל על לשון משה שפיר קאמרת דגדול הדור נקרא כן שהוא ניצוץ משה רבינו ע”ה עצמו המתגלגל בכל דור
I found the following line referenced to the Arizal (It says that it’s in ספר הלקוטיס, וזאת הברכה פ”ח, but I couldn’t find it there.)
“דע, כי משה רבינו עליו השלום בא בכל דור ודור, להאיר להם … והנה הצדיק שיש בו ניצוץ משה, הוא המנהיג את הדור, וכל החכמים שבדורו טפלים לו, כי הם ענפים שלו”
@non political, @ Syag @K-cup and @YR.
This is actually quite funny. I wrote “while Litvishers respect the Gedolim almost as much as Lubavich” and got attacked from both sides. One side (Syag) was quite upset that I dared hint that you respect your Gedolim less than we respect the Rebbe. At the same time, I was corrected from the other side, saying that there’s a fundamental difference between our view of the Rebbe and your view of your Gedolim.
To me it seems that you have a very unsophisticated, even childish, understanding of the human mind and how kavod works. It doesn’t have to be kavod that someone else gives you, although there is certainly some of that in nearly all cases of chabad shlichim, but the kavod that you feel becaue you are doing what to you seems a bekavodige thing. If a shliach feels that he is a big chassid becasue he is on shlichus, then the bizyonos he gets doesn’t faze him. Aderaba, it makes him feel even better with himself.
Nothing wrong with any of that, but it just can’t be called lesheim Shamayim or ahavas Yisrael.
So pretty much no one is Lesheim Shamayim. Literally. Name me any one except for Moshe Rabbeinu (and I exempt him only because Hashem testifies directly about him that he was the most humble person), and I’ll find his Shelo Lishma. Whether it’s for the good feeling, or Gan Eiden, or for the physical fame.
Also, to @rso, I want to point out that while Shluchim get kavod from each other, it doesn’t pay off the Bizyonos that Shlichus comes with.
Unlike Shul Rabbonim and even Kiruv Rabbonim, Shluchim deal with people who aren’t Frum and often don’t care to be Frum. And there is no contract with a board or anything. You want food, you’ve got to fund-raise from these people who never asked you to come there to begin with. And as soon as someone starts becoming too religious for the community (when they start needing a normal Frum school, community, etc.) the Shliach often recommends them to move to a larger Jewish community and loses contact[1]. And while some are lucky to live within a driving distance of other shluchim or Lubavitchers, there are plenty of Shluchim see each other once a year, if they’re lucky. And these Shluchim also have to send their children away to board (by grandparents or uncles) since it’s unlikely that there’ll be a normal Frum school within the area. And while these kids do grow up Frum (I know a few Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva who grew up this way), it’s not easy to send a child half way across the world, even if he’s going to a grandparent.
Tell me, do you think that getting a once a year Kavod by the Kinnus is worth it?
[1]. And even if they don’t, the BT has to give Maaser to his new community (Bnei Ircha), so he can only give whatever leftovers he has to the original shliach.
If it’s just ahavas Yisrael then why don’t the litvish or chassidish do the same? ( Maybe they are lacking in AY).
First of all, it’s not the Yuds anymore. Lubavitch is not the only ones going out anymore. The thing is, that there are so many Litvishers, that they don’t have to go out one by one. They can actually send out a Kvutza at a time.
But really, it’s a question of priorities. I know of Shluchim, that if they just had the opportunity to sit Al HeMenucha VeAl Hanachala in some upstate shtetl, would have become tremendous Rabbonim. As it is, he’s out there working as a Chabad house director[1]. On the other hand, as a Chabad house director, he’s had a direct influence in tens if not hundreds of Mekuravim over the decades, who are now fully Frum and went through Yeshivas. The question is, what’s more important?
So we’ll be proud of the shliach, thanks to who’s Mesirus Nefesh there are now tons of Mitzvas being performed by his students, and his student’s students, ad sof kol hadoros.
There’s a famous story of a certain Gaon who was asked to take the job of a Rosh Yeshiva. He didn’t want to, since he was scared that it would hurt his own personal growth, as he’d have to spend his time preparing Shiur, saying Shiur and answering questions. So he went to the Chofetz Chaim. The Chofetz Chaim told him of a Mashal of an expert shoemaker who was offered a partnership in a shoe factory. He didn’t want to take it, since his shoes were exquisite and expensive works of art, while the factory would produce cheap and shoddy work. But his friend changed his mind. He told him “listen, you make 100 Ruble a shoe, and make one shoe a month. But if your factory will produce 5,000 shoes a month, even if each shoe costs only a Ruble, you still made 4,900 rubles over that month. Even though each shoe’s worth less, the quantity overrides the quality.” So the same thing here, said the Chofetz Chaim. Your Torah study’s great. But the Torah study of a thousand Bachurim, however puny each individual is relative to the Gadol, is still worth it.
But on the other hand, it wouldn’t surprise me if he his children know about the Metziyus of sports (not that they talk about it in their home, Chas VeShalom, but you often can’t help but overhear it from your congregants) or US politics (same as above).
[1]. Just for the record, he still learns, is a Rov, and all of his children are Frum.
Every tayneh you have against the shita of chabad and the Rebbe, and you make according to that a maskona, is worth nothing, until you have a godol or Rebbe that says that maskona, only then we can have a conversation who is right, but until then it’s worthless.
So I’m asking which godel held against Lubavitche, Rebbe and what did he say and what did the Rebbe say back and hold. Because you keep on saying that ALL GEDOILIM hold what you say.Honestly, I don’t think you want to go there. The fact is, that many Litvisher Roshei Yeshiva spoke out against Lubavitch. We (rightly, in my opinion) just don’t koch in these things, but if you really want to know, what you should do is look up who was on the Moetzes in, say, the Lameds through the Nuns. If you don’t know who they are, you can generally assume that we didn’t get along too well.
The thing is, that there were also people that we did hear about, as they were friendly with the Rebbe, but it was only in the early years. By the later years, some of those also stopped.
And also, just a small tip, because I can see where you’re going.
You do realize your on the Yeshiva world coffeeroom, not on the Modern Orthodox coffee room. And while there are a few Modern Orthodox people here, most of them long abandoned this thread.
You’re dealing here with Yeshivish/Chassidish posters. These are people who really, really respect their Gedolim. And rightfully so. And while they don’t respect them just as much as we respect the Rebbe (as you can see from the past 23 pages), they get pretty close [1]. So practically, there’s absolutely no way that you’ll be able to argue with their Gedolim, as you simply don’t have the stature. So unless you want to close this thread (and get yourself banned, while you’re at it), I would keep the topic theoretical, as you’ll never come to a conclusion as to “who’s right”. Especially, I would hope that no one would change their Hashkafa through an internet chat room. If you do, there are way bigger problems with your Yiddishkeit than Lubavitch/Misnagdim fights.
[1]. Try getting a really Yeshivish person to say the words “The Chazon Ish said X. That was just wrong of him, and we’re suffering from his mistake to this day. We should have done Y. He’s human, he erred”. They’ll squirm, and will feel blasphemous uttering such a sentence. Just as we’d feel saying such a thing about the Rebbe.
This is not shayah nowadays.
Just because we can’t do the second part of the Psak means we shouldn’t do the first part?
Aside from the claim I have already made earlier that your rebbe’s kavonah in this was to draw attention to himself and to claim the leadership that you have attributed to him,
I don’t get something. You said earlier that you don’t believe that Lubavitch is not a Kefira organization per se. So we’re Bichlal Amisecha, and you have to judge us Lekaf Zechus. So Kal Vachomer, you should be judging the Rebbe Lekaf Zechus. It’s just mind boggling how a Frum person would write a post, when it comes to Lubavitch, that reminds me of FailedMessiah. You can take this further, that the reason certain Roshei Yeshiva pushed for Kollel was so that they’d have financial control over their community, or that the reasons why different Admorim were against Limmudei Chol is to keep people poor and easily swayed. Chas Veshalom to say such a thing !!
The truth is, that the Rebbe didn’t want Mivtzoyim to be a Lubavitch thing[1]. He would have been more than happy if someone else would have gone out to put Tefillin on people, or Tzitzis, or got them to keep Shabbos, or talked to people about Hashem, or Shiluach HaKan, or pushed for any other Mitzvah. There’s nothing Lubavitch in Mivtzoim.
It’s just that there’s an obligation of “Hochiach Tochiach”. And that’s what Mivtzoim is about.
The question is, what’s the proper way to Mochiach people. So the Lubavitch derech is, that the point of being Mochiach is to get the other person to stop sinning. Now, the question is what’s the most effective way to do that? So there are two ways to be Mochiach – One way is to come to someone who’s breaking the Torah and say “Sinner. Stop now!! You’re violating a negative commandment. You know what would happen to you if there was a Beis din now?” The other is to tell him that he’s Jewish, that he should come to Shul, do a small Mitzvah, and slowly teach him more and more until he becomes a full Maamin, as a fully Shomer Shabbos Jew.
So the same way we try to find the good in the Satmar Derech (and we do. I’ve never heard any Lubavitcher “in the know” speaking badly about Reb Yoel [2], for example), it would be nice if others would give the same courtesy back.
[1]. And I say this to Lubavitchers too, for the record.
[2]. And even during the whole Satmar-Lubavitch controversy, our main issue was with the behavior of certain Chassidim. I don’t remember there being any fight with them personally.
Rso: I was busy until now, but here’s a possible explanation is that the sundial was poorly constructed.
Sundials work because of the contrast between the shade and the dial, so if the sundial is made of a dark material, and there’s too much external shade, the contrast will be mush lower, and the sundial won’t work.
So what would the tree do?
When sun goes through a tree, some rays get blocked by leaves. Some rays go through the leaves, and some rays go between the leaves.
So when you’re on the ground, you’ll see the sun, but it’ll be slightly darkened. So the scientists said like you “you see the see the sun. So obviously nothing’s blocking it.” While the Alter Rebbe said that while it’s not blocked completely, it’s blocked enough to break the sundial.
But even leshitosecha, it still could be that the Frierdiker Rebbe heard the story the way he wrote it, and his mistake was that he was too trusting, and there was some kind of broken telephone somewhere up the chain.
It’s actually a Machlokes Tanayim.
See Yoma 53b:
The Mishna said:
משניטל ארון אבן היתה שם מימות נביאים ראשונים ושתייה היתהThe Gemara says there:
משנגנז לא קתני אלא משניטל תנן כמאן דאמר ארון גלה לבבל דתניא רבי אליעזר אומר ארון גלה לבבל שנאמר (דברי הימים ב לו, י) ולתשובת השנה שלח המלך נבוכדנאצר ויביאהו בבלה עם כלי חמדת בית ה’ רבי שמעון בן יוחאי אומר ארון גלה לבבל שנאמר (ישעיהו לט, ו) לא יותר דבר אמר ה’ אלו עשרת הדברות שבו רבי יהודה (בן לקיש) אומר ארון במקומו נגנז שנאמר (מלכים א ח, ח) ויראו ראשי הבדים מן הקדש על פני הדביר ולא יראו החוצה ויהיו שם עד היום הזה ופליגא דעולא דאמר עולא שאל רבי מתיא בן חרש את רבי שמעון בן יוחאי ברומי וכי מאחר שרבי אליעזר מלמדנו פעם ראשונה ושניה ארון גלה לבבל ראשונה הא דאמרן (דברי הימים ב לו, י) ויביאהו בבלה עם כלי חמדת בית ה’ שניה מאי היא דכתיב (איכה א, ו) ויצא מבת ציון כל הדרה מאי כל הדרה חדרה אתה מאי אתה אומר אמר לו שאני אומר ארון במקומו נגנז שנאמר ויאריכו הבדים וגו’
…
אמר רב נחמן תנא וחכמים אומרים ארון בלשכת דיר העצים היה גנוז אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק אף אנן נמי תנינא מעשה בכהן אחד שהיה מתעסק וראה רצפה משונה מחברותיה ובא והודיע את חבירו ולא הספיק לגמור את הדבר עד שיצתה נשמתו וידעו ביחוד ששם ארון גנוז מאי הוה עביד אמר רבי חלבו מתעסק בקרדומו היה תנא דבי רבי ישמעאל שני כהנים בעלי מומין היו מתליעין בעצים ונשמטה קרדומו של אחד מהם ונפלה שם ויצתה אש ואכלתו
To be a bit contrarian, here’s a Teshuva from Rabbi Baumel to Reb Shraga Feivel Mendelovitch, saying that you can evict a student if he’s annoying the teacher. Even if it’s going to cause Bittul Torah to the student.
But, even more important, I do have litvish friends IRL, and I do hang around that community.
Just to make it clear, I don’t talk to them about Chassidus at all. Period.
Didn’t you just join the CR? I’ve been here for almost two years now.
While it’s true that i just joined the Coffeeroom, but I was a lurker on and off from even before the days of the coffeeroom (where every news story would have 423 comments). The good times when gefen, oomis, yummy cupcake, chaplaintzvi, midwesterner, and Syag would kibbitz together, pba would troll, and the not-so-good times, when… well, we won’t go there.
But, even more important, I do have litvish friends IRL, and I do hang around that community.
Whose haskoma? I see it only as a hava amina.
At least Reb Aharon Feldman holds that way explicitly. See his Teshuva on moshiachtalk.
I feel like I’m understanding people here more and more.
I’ll disagree with out on that.
Or like Rabbeinu HaKadosh after his petira came back and was motzei his family with kiddush, which means he was in a full on physical body because otherwise couldn’t be motzi)
So can you find me a source that this is happening now? You won’t be able to, because since 27 Adar 1 5752, there were no Sichos. So obviously there’s no explicit “this is how you should behave now”, and there were no revelations to Elter Chassidim (who were raui to receive Ruach HaKodesh), we have no reason to assume that that’s happening.
The only thing we have is a Tzavaah, Aguch’s decisions, and the Rebbe’s behavior after 5710, where the Rebbe said Kaddish for the Frierdiker Rebbe. The Rebbe instituted the Minhagei Yartzeit for the Frierdiker Rebbe. There was never a Shvil for the Frierdiker Rebbe. The Rebbe used the title “Ziya” (which is the conventional title in Lubavitch to a Rebbe who passed away) on every single sefer of the Frierdiker Rebbe and in every Maamar where he referenced the Frierdiker Rebbe.
The problem is when people cherry-pick what the Rebbe said once, and take that over something that the Rebbe said hundreds of times. And the problem comes from Shelo Shimshu Kol Tzorchan (And that Shimush has to come from the right person. You know the famous line, that “Eisav also had a Rov”). When you learn Kabbalah, actually, even when you learn Gemara, you absolutely need Shimush to not mess up. For example, if you learn the second chapter of Chagiga literally, you’re a Kofer. But the Gemara’s not Kefira, you just took it wrong.
Another example of what I’ve read (I saw an essay by someone, I think it’s Reb Yoel Kahn) is that the Rebbe Rashab wrote in the first Maamar in 5659 the importance of davening out loud, and how Kol MeOrer Hakavanah. So someone would read that, and say “OK. There’s this clear Maamar which says that the louder you daven, the better” and would scream through davening. But yet, somehow, that never became a Lubavitch minhag. And not even by the Hamon Am, but by the great Mashpiyim. And the reason is that they had enough Shimush to know when the Rebbe means something literally, and when the Rebbe means something spiritually.
And this Shimush comes from being around Elter Chossidim and Rabbonim, and actually being Mekabel from them. And Aguch, the official group of Luabvitch Elter Chossidim decided right after 3 Tammuz that Lubavitch is Anti.
Anyhow I would say he is more to the right than center simply because he is less chicken than most mainstream to speak publicly to non lubavitchers and lubavitchers alike on what he believes in…
Can you please stop putting words in other people’s mouth.
umm, this isn’t color war. Hashem doesn’t pick the tzadik of the week to “listen” to. tzadik Gozer means Tzadik gozer. any and all tsaddikim, whether they are in my personal walk of life or not. Do you actually think, as you seem to imply, that Hashem decides which tzadik gets listened to, and you assume it will be “yours”?
Hashem does what He wants.
the Rebbe wasn’t as “normal”
Did I just hear this from a Lubavitcher??!! I could see Toi or DY making this claim, but a Shlucha?!
Oh. And a further point. I am absolutely Moche CS calling the Rebbe “not normal”. I would protest if anyone else did it, and I protest it from you.
<blovkquote>
IOW, insanity?Yup.
Rabbi Chaim
That’s Reb Chaim Volozhiner, Reb Chaim Brisker, Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz, or Reb Chaim Kanievsky (am I missing other Reb Chaims)?
The rebbe watches you
So? Is it Kefira to think that the Rebbe sees you from Olam HaEmes? Why don’t we wear Tzitzis out in a Beis Hachaim?
he’s omniscient,
And even while he was alive, is it Kefira to think that he can see things happening far away, or the future, for example? If you read many stories from the Baal Shem Tov or from the Chozeh, it’s not an unusual belief.
omnipotent
Only Hashem is omnipotent. Hashem can choose to listen to the Rebbe’s “decrees”.
please, if you can offer a reasonable alternative, I’d like to hear
Denial.
Why is it not akin to apikorsus to claim something that is against FACT and then to base a belief system upon it? Where are all the charomim against them?
Is it Kefira to think nonsense? If I believe Moshiach will sit on my chair before his Hisgalus, what Ikkar am I violating as long as I believe that he’ll be a living male, descendant of Beis Dovid etc. It’s not similar to the “Nebach an Apikores” since the typical “Nebach an Apikores” believes in Kefira, but believes it with a Temimus. So if someone would learn the Gemara and somehow becomes absolutely convinced that Moshiach will be a horse, he would be a Koifer Betmimus. But on the other hand, let’s say someone believes that Bar Kochva’s Moshiach. But before before Bar Kochva soured and was killed, he had to go on a trip to China and lived there for 10 years. In the meanwhile Bar Kochva was killed. Would he be a Nebach an Apikores? He believes in all the Ikkarim. He just made a mistake Bemetziyus. He thought Bar Kochva’s alive but he’s really not.
While Meshichistim aren’t making a mistake. They’re in denial, and using crooked logic to justify denial. But would that be Kefira?
By the way, as I was looking some stuff up, I cam across Moshiachtalk from Rabbi Gil Student (who made the website about 20 years ago to prove that the Lubavitcher Rebbe can’t be Moshiach). He has a Teshuvah from Rabbi Feldman from NIRC, that while Meshichistim are WONG WRONG WRONG WRONG and messed up in the head, they are not Kofrim, are Bichlal Amisecha, you’re allowed to daven in their shuls (but you have to leave or make a protest when they say Yechi), and are kosher Shochtim (!). The only thing is that since they’re so messed up in the head[1], they’re not qualified to be a Rov, and should not be supported in any way so that their false Hashkafa doesn’t spread [2].
And he has a letter from Rabbi Leff where he said “On the other hand, to daven in a shul where the majority have crooked ideas about Yiddishkeit and recite things that have no place as part of the davening, better not to daven in a shul like that. ”
Not that it’s Kefira[3]. Just that it’s very very very wrong and crooked.
So this seems to be this is the attitude that most official Shluchim take (except I don’t know how many of them would Daven in Shuls of Meshichistim, even if those Shuls would be the only ones in the neighborhood). They oppose Meshichistim. They condemn meshichistim. And yes, even in private. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if they rant against Meshichistim more in private than in public. I have quite a few friends who learned in Detroit. If I’d even get close to mentioning something about Yechi, I’d get a tongue lashing. And this is true, by the way, when they’re drunk. They try to shut down their institutions. They’re in a court case trying to get back the main shul in 770. And while it may have been true right after nun daled that Antis were just quiet Meshichisten (I wasn’t around then, so I don’t know the underground politics back then), it was definitely over within a decade. I think it’s part of the Meshichist propaganda to say that all Antis are secret Meshichistim, they same way they turned around and made Reb Aharon Soloveichik[4] into a hidden meshichist.
[1]. He says that Meshichistim are insane for a different reason. He said that believing that a person who passed away isn’t exactly Kefira, it’s insane to think that of all the Rabbis over the thousands of years, it will be the Rebbe. The thing is, that most of them deny that the Rebbe ever passed away to begin with, so that reason of insanity doesn’t apply. But there definitely are other reasons why they are insane, as mentioned above.
[2]. I suspect some Meshichist is going to jump out (like they did when Rabbi Aharon Soloveitchik from Chicago wrote his letter) and say “You see!! He’s fine with Meshichistim!!” He’s not. He opposed them and thought that they’re wrong. The only thing that he said was literally “it cannot be dismissed as outside the pale of orthodoxy”. That’s absolutely not an endorsement. Typical lack of reading comprehension from their part.
[3]. I strongly suspect that Rabbi Gil Student cherry-picked the responsa that he published to be palatable to Lubavitch, and that’s why he didn’t publish letters from Rav Shach and others, for example, because my suspicion was that the point of this website was to convince Lubavitcher Meshichistim to drop it (which is why he has also has letters and Kol Korehs from Lubavitcher Antis from back then). But either way, I don’t think that Rabbi Feldman would write an Halachically untrue letter to sound palatable to us.
[4]. It’s another interesting thing, as I’m not even sure how respected was he in the right-wing Yeshivish world. I don’t think that he was seen as his brother (the Rosh Yeshiva of YU), but I don’t think he was seen as his cousins (the current Brisker Rabbonim in Yerushalayim). Could be that since he lived OOT, he was just not so well known. I honestly don’t know.
Would you say that other gedolim have the power of “Tzaddik Gozer…?”
Yes
If yes, then how can it simply be that ” the REBBE runs the world?” What about the other tzaddikim who are gozer?
No idea, that’s a bit above my pay grade :). Everything is in Hashem’s hands and He makes the call.
WE DON’T HAVE TO OBSERVE (say Selichos etc) ON BEHA”B
Regarding fasting: the Aruch HaShulchan already said that few fast Behab, and Chassidim in general weren’t into fasting (outside the fasts which are Mechuyav Al Pi Din, see Kesser Shem Tov, where he writes that it’s much better to invest your energy into Torah and Davening over fasting Chassidim were also into serving Hashem with joy), and it seems that nowadays non Chassidim also advocate that Teshiva through Torah study and Chessed is better than fasting (I’ve seen it referenced to קריינא דאגרתא ח”א עמוד קפב אות קסז, but I don’t own a copy to look it up inside).
@toi and @DaasYochid
The other thing I wanted to mention is that there are really a few Taanos against us, said by different people, so a response against one isn’t a response to another. If I remember correctly, DaasYochid was fine with all the Lubavitch Rabbeim until the Frierdiker Rebbe. And the Taanah was on innovations over the past 70 years.
And that’s why I brought up the whole Heicha Kedusha business. Because the thing is, I don’t believe that the Rebbe canceled Mitzvos, and I don’t believe that Reb Yaakov cancelled Chazaras HaShatz. “Cancelling a Mitzvah” means that someone says “This Mitzvah (or this part of the Mitzvah) was applicable from 2448 – 5779. From today, it’s over.” And neither of them said that.
So if you’ll look at the Taanos most often leveled against us (Zman, Sukkah and Shalosh Seudos), all of those were innovated before the Rebbe.
The issue with Zman Tefilla goes way back, that even the Zamir Aritzim (the anti-chossidic polemic issued during the Charomim) mentions that problem among Chassidim (not just Lubavitchers), along with being too happy and focusing too much on Kabbalah at the expense of Gemara. So that’s definitely not a modern problem, and going back to the Rebbe Rashab’s style Lubavitch wouldn’t solve the problem.
The other two were also mentioned in Sichos of the Frierdiker Rebbe. So while NCB and rso will say “it’s a fairy tale”[1], that doesn’t change the situation. The thing is, that Lubavitchers don’t believe that when the Frierdiker Rebbe said something like “My father did X”, or “The Mitteler Rebbe said Y”, he was lying. So by the time the Rebbe became Rebbe, the whole Davening late, eating before davening, not sleeping in a Sukkah, not eating Shalosh Seudos was not a crazy “who invented that?!”. It was fairly accepted within Lubavitch.
And if you’ll look at those Sichos, the Rebbe’s not saying “Ok guys, the Mitzvah of Sukkah is hereby cancelled!! Woo Hoo.” He’s saying “The Minhag is X, how can we explain it so it’s not explicitly violating Halacha.” It’s a sort of Moreh Hetter for a Minhag. And, for example, when it came to Shalosh Seudos, the Rebbe toned down the existing minhag[2], for example, by requiring that we eat something, so we at least fulfill the Mitzvah in a Bedievediker manner.
And, (for NCB and Toi), that’s why I mention all the Chumros we keep. It’s not like the Conservative movement, say, which goes out of its way to find every single Kulah they can find. It’s not like the Rebbe was looking for every annoying Mitzvah to cancel it. It was those specific Mitzvas which were previously mentioned by the Frierdiker Rebbe where we were already lenient.
[1]. I saw Reb Moshe Shternbuch quote the Frierdiker Rebbe’s quote of the Alter Rebbe (“Chalav Akum causes Sefeikos in Emunah”) besheim omro. So it looks like he doesn’t believe that it’s all a fraud.
[2]. That’s another interesting thing. The Rebbe toned down a lot of the extreme Chabad minhagim. Starting from the decree on Mashke, to strengthening the importance of Niglah within Lubavitch, to pushing that Yeshivas set aside a seder to learn Shulchan Aruch every day, to making a Friday morning seder until roughly noon (again, including Niglah seder), to encouraging learning Gemara on Shabbos (rather than Chassidus only, as was done in previous generations), to the push for Chassidisher Levush (the Kapoteh), and of course, the Takanah to learn Rambam daily (you’re going to say “but people will paskin from the Rambam!!” So I’ll say back “But I know of people who learn Mishna and Paskin from there. And I know of people who paskin from an Artscroll Gemara. Does it mean that you shouldn’t learn that? At least you’ll now know that you should be asking a Shaalah).
To: @Toi
So there are several issues with Lubavitch that people bring up. I’ll try answering them in several posts split up:
1. Your issue with Hashkafa:
We don’t believe that the Rebbe’s a deity. We don’t worship him. We don’t pray to him. We don’t say “Baruch Atah Rebbe”, we don’t say “Bereishis Barrah Rebbe”, Ch”vsh. Not me, and no one I’ve ever seen. I’ve never seen an Elokist in my life, and they were put in Cherem by all Lubavitch Rabbonim, including the Meshichistim anyways.
The phrase “the Rebbe runs the world” is a simple translation of “Tzaddik Gozer VeHakadosh Baruch Hum Mekayem”. No more and no less. At least that’s how we take it to mean.
The Atzmus Umahus sicha[1]? We take it to mean that the Rebbe’s so nullified to Hashem that he does what Hashem wants. That’s it. No, we don’t put Rebbe pictures in Shuls (at least in any I’ve seen), and most Yeshivos don’t have them either. I’ve never ever seen in my life any Shul or Beis Medrash with a Rebbe picture in the front. I’ve heard rumors of a shul of crazies in Tzfas, but again, if I could, I would take it down. And I don’t doubt that the head Shliach of Tzfas would take it down in a moment if he had the legal power. And so would the rest of Lubavitch.
Speaking of Meshichism. A large amount of Lubavitch is anti. In terms of “official Chabad,” it’s probably around 99% of Shulchim are anti. And they’re not “hidden meshichist”. If you don’t believe me, dress up as a Lubavitcher and go to the following institutions:
1. Morristown
2. Detroit
3. (The official Chabad community of) Chicago. The head shliach, the Rov, etc.
4. Any Shemtov
5. Tomchei Tmimim Kiryat Gat
6. Tomchei Tmimim Kfar Chabad.
7. The Ohel
8. The Rosh Yeshiva of LA.
9. Rabbi Heller (the Rosh Kollel of Crown Heights).And tell them Yechi (in secret, even without cameras). I’m not responsible for your hospital bills after this.
These people don’t say Yechi secretly. They hate Meshichstim. If they had the legal power, they would shut down the Meshichist institutions overnight. And Agu”ch (the official overarching group of older Chassidim, who, if anyone is, the governing group of Chabad) is officially anti, and so is Merkos (the official organization that sends on Shlichus). They’re involved in lawsuit after lawsuit trying to shut down Meshichistim. Just try going to Krinsky and Kotlarsky and try saying Yechi. And the younger generation is getting more and more anti over time.
Oh, and PS. Rabbi Wolf is not an official Shliach.
And as far as Meshichistim are concerned, I talked to a few of them. Pretty much 100% of them believe that the Rebbe’s literally alive beguf Gashmi, in a physical body. They don’t do anything special on Gimmel Tammuz. No Neshama candle, no Mishnayos. So yes, they’re absolutely nuts and retarded.
[1]. I want to point out, that the Rebbe said this Sicha even before he became Rebbe, and it was edited and published right away. It was never kept hidden. I have no doubt that the sicha made the rounds within a few weeks after it was said. And yet, the Rebbe was still on decent relations with the Satmar Rov and Reb Yitzchak Hutner for a while after [2], and with Reb Moshe until Reb Moshe’s passing, and I’m almost positive I’ve seen Likkutei Sichos quoted in the Rivevos Ephrayim (he had a phenomenal bekiyus and library, quoting random and rare Seforim all the time).
This is, in addition to a few Chossidisher Poskim (the Mishneh Halachos was famous for being on close terms with the Rebbe, and even in his last Teshuva where he said that Meshichistim were Kofrim and called on Lubavitchers to appoint a new Rebbe, he still called the Rebbe with all the proper titles. How did he explain the sicha? And of course Rabbi Pinchas Hirshprung, who was on good terms with the Rebbe despite not being an official Lubavitcher. How did he explain the sicha? So sure, other Poskim are Barei Plugta. But here there’s a Machlokes BeMitzzyus (what did the Rebbe mean), and after 60 years, the amount of Elokistim in Lubavitch can probably be counted on one hand. So what do you think is more likely: Lubavitch has no idea what the Rebbe meant (If they felt that the Rebbe was proclaiming himself G-d (Ch v”sh) they should either follow him there or leave Lubavitch) or that we do understand what the Rebbe meant, and that he meant simply meant that the Rebbe’s nullified to Hashem. Oh, and this Sicha was officially said about the Previous Rebbe. And yet, for the next 42 years after the Sicha, the Rebbe didn’t do any actions which would show that he should be deified or that he deified someone else. When people started looking at him during davening (not Ch V”sh to deify him, but to watch him Daven), he threatened to stop davening in public.) But after all is said and done, we definitely and unconditionally don’t believe that he’s a G-d.
[2]. The Rebbe was Menachem Ovel the Satmar Rov in Yud Daled after the passing of his daughter (after that Sicha was said, and likely after it was edited) and they had a conversed, and I’ve heard that the Satmar Rov was Menachem Avel the Rebbe after the Rebbe’s mother passed away in Chof Vov. Do you know if the Satmar Rov was ever Menachem Ovel the head of the Reform movement, and if the head of the reform movement would come to the Satmar Rov, would they have a congenial chat? I was under the impression that they broke up over Tzionus (Shleimus HaAretz specifically) and Shlichus, not this Sicha.
The Rebbe still was on decent terms with Reb Yitzchok Hutner for a while. To the best of my knowledge, the relationship ended when the Moshiach campaign started, decades after the Atzmus Umahus sicha came out. If the Rebbe meant it literally, why did it take so long for Reb Yitzchok Hutner so long to break up?
Lubavicher shechitah even where there is another perfectly mehudar chareidishe/chassidishe shechitah because only people who learn chabad chassidus can be yirei Shamayim.
I’ve looked through the Rebbe and Frierdiker Rebbe’s sichos, and asked around, and couldn’t find a single source where they said to eat only Lubavitch meat. And, by the way, far from everyone keeps Lubavitch Shechita. I know a _lot_ of people who eat Chassidisher Shechita.
They just said that meat has to come from a Yerei Shamaim, and if they come from backgrounds where beards are required, they must grow them (I’ve seen a letter of the Rebbe where he said that if a Shochet comes from a community where people traditionally shaved, shaving isn’t a sign of a lack of Yiras Shamayim). They don’t say anything about what, or where, they should learn, or to which community they should belong.
My suspicion where this custom came from, is:
1. It says that a Shochet has to have a lot of Yiras Shamayim. So since there’s no externally visible objective definition of “Yiras Shamayim”, people used the Shochtim they personally knew and trusted, and since people hung around their own community (Lubavitchers would daven in the Chabad shul and they would hold farbrengens together, while the non-Lubavitchers would obviously daven in their shuls and hang out together), many ended up eating only Lubavitch meat, and that’s how the custom developed. And even nowadays, Lubavitch is small enough that many people know who their Shochtim are personally.
2. Not sure about this one, but in the past (in Lubavitch circles), the Shochet of the town was a highly respected position, where they would frequently double up as the town Mashpia/Mashgiach, and the position would be close to that of the Rov. Was it this way in non-Chabad circles? Because if it wasn’t, then the Lubavitch Shochtim would have been (on average[1]) more Yirei Shamayim since a non-Chassid who was Frum and learned would prefer to work as a Rov, Mashgiach, Rosh Yeshiva, Maggid Shiur, or learn in Kollel. I’m not sure if this is true, but I very rarely hear stories of Litvishe Shochtim, while I do hear stories of Litvishe Rabbonim, Lubavitch Rabbonim, or Lubavitch Shochtim.
But my point stands either way. We consider our derech to be more Emes, but everyone else has a good derech and are fine and good Jews, and are Bichlal Amisecha. And no, we don’t consider your meat not-kosher in any way, and even those who keep Lubavitch Shechita, consider it just a chumra, and will eat Beliyos from other meats.
[1]. What I mean is that if, say, a Reb Chaim Shmulevich would work as a Shochet and the Lubavitch equivalent would work as a Shochet, we’d trust both equally. But since people like Reb Chaim would find jobs in Yeshivas, the Shochtim would come from the more mediocre bochurim. So if there would be a Lubavitch Reb Chaim vs a non-Lubavitch Shmerel, we’d obviously trust the Lubavitch Reb Chaim more.
R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky is quoted as saying that the original takana to say chazaras hasha”tz was not made in a beis medrash, where the attendees generally know how to daven themselves. It was only made for shuls, where it is common to have people who need to be yotzei with the sha”tz.
Doesn’t this remind you of the whole Sukkah debate? Something done one way for thousands of years, and is brought down in all Halachic works to be done that way. Shas, Rishonim, Achronim, until a Rov about a hundred years ago says to do things otherwise, and then another Rov about 50 years ago tries to find a Sevara, however Dachuk[1] it may be, to justify it.
[1]. Was this Minhag HaYeshivos MeAz UmiKedem? Was this Minhag Volozhin? Minhag HaGra? I don’t remember seeing such a thing Maaseh Rav. I just looked up the Aruch HaShulchan (Siman 232:6, the Mishna Brura didn’t seem to say anything interesting) where he says that the only hetter to daven a Heicha Kedusha is:
1. You’re running late. But he said that the Minhag is like the Arizal to daven a proper Chazaras HaShatz even if you’re going to end up saying the Chazaras HaShatz after Shkiya.
2. If the shul (or, by the way, Beis Medrash) doesn’t have more than a “bit more than a minyan” of people, you should do a Heicha Kedusha because we’re concerned that they won’t answer Amen. I don’t think that this was really a concern in Slabodka, one of the top Yeshivas back in Europe, which also had plenty of students, way more than 10. And in many of the modern Yeshivas, there are often way more than 10 people davening.But note, he didn’t say the Sevarah of Reb Yaakov, or that “in Yeshivas they also don’t do Chazaras HaShatz”, and he was the Rov of Novardok, which had its own Yeshiva.
So through who is this Mesorah that the takana to say chazaras hasha”tz was not made in a beis medrash?
And a side question, if there was no such Takanah, why do a Heicha Kedusha? A Heicha Kedusha’s a replacement for a Chazaras Hashatz. If there’s no Chazaras Hashatz, there should be no Heicha Kedusha?
I don’t think anyone has a problem with that. The problem arises when people perceive that they are being missionized. Because, another shocker, I know, Litvish, Satmer, Sefardim, etc. also believe that their own derachim are more true than the other ones. And yet, you’ll argue with them over it as you noted above. Don’t get all offended when they argue back.
I’m not offended when people argue back. If the discussion would be along the lines of “we’re better because we daven on time, and we don’t agree that what you’re doing is right. I don’t know where you got this idea that you can daven late because you want a bit more Kavanah, if you even have more kavanah, but whatever.” it would be one story.
Saying that we’re Kofrim over this is another. And getting insulted when we argue back is surprising.
woah! it seems from your own writing that you also struggle with gaavah and judging others. delusions of grandeur much?
It’s a shocker. I know. Lubavitchers believe that their Derech is more true than the other ones.
Why did you think we’re Lubavitch? For the herring?
The thing is, we don’t look down at others. We’ll drink your wine, trust your Kashrus, learn your Seforim, and daven in your shuls. We don’t trash talk the Gedolim. You’re Bichlal Amisecha. When you come visit different holes, we’ll host you. Yeah, we’re proud of our Chumros to some extent, but I’d like to point out it took about 18 pages for it to come out. We didn’t just show up and say “Hey, I’m better than you.” It’s just that there’s an unfortunate misconception that all Lubavitchers are modern. We’re not.
I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about
The Heicha Kedusha by Mincha.
And by the way, I’m still waiting for answers to my previous questions 🙂 :
1. What Hetter is there, in Shas or Poskim, for Yeshiva Bochurim to not daven a proper Chazaras HaShatz by Mincha? Now even if you’ll Taanah that back in Slabodka (where I think this minhag originated) they lived Toraso Umnaso, how does this apply in the US, where you have breaks for lunch and breakfast, and in some Yeshivas for Limmudei Chol. I find it hard to believe that you can’t find 5 minutes in a day to do a Chazaras Hashatz like the Chachamim decreed.
2. What’s the Maaseh with Brisk and fasting? I’ve been hearing jokes about “Pikuach Nefesh”. I definitely hope that no one has ever broken a fast without a proper doctor’s note.
3. What’s the deal with shaving? Yes, I know that most Litvishe Poskim are Mattir, but there are places which say that it’s Assur. And nobody says that it’s a Mitzvah. So why do Yeshivas require their Bochurim to put themselves in a possible Issur DeOraisa.
I’m asking for Litivshers here.
But, as quoted earlier by someone else, the lubavich rebbe wrote that a rebbe (only of his caliber, of course) can be davened to R”L.
Lo Haya VeLo Nivra.
if you honestly claim that he doesn’t denigrate misnagdim as a whole
So you have a problem that the Frierdiker Rebbe denigrated anonymous Misnagdim. And I don’t think Frierdiker Rebbe meant to denigrate all Misnagdim, and he definitely did not denigrate the Gedolei Hamisnagdim.
Yet, in this thread, you had someone explicitly calling the Mitteler Rebbe a liar[1]. Without any source (just a conjecture, which itself has no source or foundation – he never actually said that he talked to a Chassidisher Rov who told him that Chassidisher Derech HaPsak ignores the Alter Rebbe completely. And even if it’s true, he’ll trust a modern Chossidisher Rov over a second hand source over what happened over two hundred years ago, just because he’s not Lubavitch). And no one called him out on this! Lo YeUman Ki Yesupar.
[1]. And you can’t say “well, it was a work of fiction”. You don’t write “fiction” in a Hakdama to the Shulchan Aruch. It’s either truth, or a lie. And rather than think a bit trying to farentfer the sons of the Alter Rebbe, he just called them liars. Can you imagine the righteous indignation if one of us said that about Reb Chaim Volozhener?
all those people I personally know who use the fact that they learn chabad chassidus as an excuse for davening late, talking incessantly during davening, not learning Gemoro. If they didn’t have that excuse they would be a lot better in many ways. And don’t counter with the standard argument of “imagine how bad they would be if they didn’t learn chassidus” because I knew a number of them before they began learning chassidus and they were standard regular Yidden who davened with a minyan, were basically quiet in shul etc.
The same way that I see that most Lubavitchers that go “Litvish” (and there aren’t so many of them, honestly) are really going to MO and are doing it for an excuse to shave, go to college and get a good secular education. I don’t know anyone (well, except burntface, but I don’t think I know him personally) that switched to Brisk, Lakewood or Chassidish.
But there are people who switched to Lubavitch for the Hisbonenus and Avodas HaTefilla, and they’re doing fine.
is a sign of what the movement believes in.
My point is that there’s no real “movement”. I’ll give you a Mashal. Take Breslov. There are Na Nachs and there are Yerushalmim. Is it a Yerushalmi Breslover’s fault that Na Nachs exist?
(we already said that were leaving Litvaks out of this)
You see, I’ll understand if a guy from Meah Shearim, who is in Kollel learning all day and keeping all the Chumros feels that by becoming Lubavitch he’ll go down in Ruchniyus. I’ll argue with him over it, but I’ll understand.
What I don’t understand is when people who keep less than we do complain how “Lubavitch isn’t frum!!!!” Yes, we may not be as sheltered, and Tznius happens to be an issue. But 95% of the people complaining about us aren’t Chassidishers. There are tons of people, who are more Maikil than Lubavitch in pretty much everything except for Zman Tefilla and possible Tznius (it depends against which Lubavitchers your comparing to).