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@SHY. You forgot the main thing – Pesach’s coming up, and now that you’re in Lakewood, you can actually eat real food on Pesach, and you don’t even have to cook it from scratch. You can just go to a store and buy it!!
But I’ll expect to see you around here more often – now that you don’t have to do Mivtzoyim on Friday afternoon, you can hang out in the coffeeroom instead.
Again, and I hope for the last time, there seem to be four questions that have been asked here:
1. Practically, why doesn’t Lubavitch sleep in a Sukkah?
Answer: It’s the minhag. If the Minhag didn’t exist, we’d sleep in a Sukkah. Period. So if you don’t have such a Minhag, you should sleep in a Sukkah.
2. But how does a Minhag be totally against Halacha?
Answer: The Rebbe’s Limud Zchus sicha about tzar etc. And if a teaching of the Mitteler Rebbe (or the Frierdiker Rebbe, for that matter) doesn’t affect you and you have no Tzar, you have to sleep in the Sukkah, despite the Minhag.
3. Why did the Mitteler Rebbe (Leshitaseinu) tell us about the Makkifim of Binah? He could have kept quiet, we would have been ignorant, wouldn’t have had Tzar, and we’d be able to sleep in a Sukkah in peace.
Answer: Obviously we don’t know why he said it, as he never told us, and the Rebbe really doesn’t address this point. But: a) The Mitzvah isn’t to sleep in a Sukkah. The Mitzvah is to live in a Sukkah like you would in your own home. So since you sleep in your house, you have to sleep in a Sukkah. But being Mitztaer isn’t a Kullah, it’s not like a leniency for a Hefsed Meruba or Tzorech Gadol. It’s a built in part of the law of Sukkah. If the Tzaar is enough to move you out of your house, you’re Lechatchila allowed to move out of the Sukkah. So when he told us about the whole Makifin Debinah and gave us Tzar, he didn’t cause us to lose out on fulfilling the Mitzvah of living in a Sukkah (another Mashal – if I keep you up all night, was I mevatel your Mitzvah of living in a Sukkah?) b) So there’s no loss and there’s a gained appreciation for what a Sukkah is.
But this last point is mostly my theory, so it could be totally off. But as SHY pointed out, Lubavitch isn’t the only community with such a custom. So whatever reasons those communities had to start their custom could have been the reason behind ours.
4. Question. Fine, but ultimately this is all a Limud Zchus. Why would you want to be part of a movement which relies on these Limmudei Zchus? Why not join a Lechatchila movement?
Answer: I still think that our Maalos outweigh our one or two “Limmudei Zchus”.
It’s not. Tosafos says the gezeirah doesn’t apply when we don’t know how to fix instruments.
The Rama (339 syif 3) has two opinions. The first (stam) says that we don’t protest those dancing because of Mutav Sheyihiyu Shogegim (meaning it’s Asur). The Second (Yesh Omrim) says that “it’s all Mutar” because of Tosfos’ reason (we’re not Baki in making kli shir), and “it could be the reason people are lenient”. So according to Kalei Hapsak, the Halacha would be that dancing and singing is forbidden even for Ashkenazim.
But if you look in the Eishel Avraham of Butchach (to 339:3), he doesn’t say that we dance and clap for Tosfos’ reason. He says that we dance and sing on Shabbos because of Simchas Shabbos, and it’s Mashma from him that we’d be allowed to dance and clap even in the Gemara’s time (when we were Baki in making a Kli Shir). I’m almost positive the Minchas Elazar says the same thing.
Again, this is just like when one of the Chabad posters brought up other Chassidishe groups with similar hanhagos. If you want to make a thread questioning why the minhag haGra people are OK with being mevatel old minhagim in several areas, you are free to do that. But, that is not this thread; this thread is about Chabad. The fact that it’s possible to have kashas on other groups doesn’t answer anyone’s questions on Chabad. It’s just a diversion.
I think you missed my point. Let’s try again:
1. You heard of this Alter Rebbe? He’s the person who willy-nilly- changed the Nusach Hatefillah and changed Minhagei Shechita.
2. The Baal Shem Tov? You mean that person who got people to daven late and ignore Gemara and Halacha?You get what I’m trying to say?
On a side note, this was probably just an accident, but from the way you worded it, it sounded like you were saying there was a minhag to duchan daily and the Gra got rid of it. It’s the other way around; minhag Ashkenaz is to only duchan on yom tov, minhag haGra is to do so daily.
Yes, that’s what I meant.
Although I think it’s just a pointless diversion to bring minhag haGra into this anyway, I do think it’s worth mentioning that it’s not all that comparable. The Gra’s changes, like not wrapping tefillin on chol hamoed, had precedents at least in the Sphardi mesora.
You had a much better answer than that – the minhag that we don’t Duchen daily is from the Rishonim (it’s from the late Rishonim If I remember correctly, but Rishonim nonetheless). And Rishonim have the right to institute things against the Gemara which Achronim can’t. And the Gra was trying to bring the Minhag back in line with the simple reading of the Gemara.
But that wasn’t my point here.
The questionable Chabad practices being discussed had no basis in anything prior whatsoever. Chabad seems to have developed this unique view on mesoras like, “well every minhag has to have been made up by some guy at some point.” You should understand that that isn’t how anyone else views it at all.
My diversion attack was on the Heicha Kedusha, not on Duchening :), and there is no early source that Bnei Yeshivas should daven a Heicha Kedusha for Mincha. And there definitely is no source for Reb Yaakov’s claim that there is no Takanah Derabannan of Chazaras Hashatz in Yeshivas. And you know what, he’s still a respected Rov.
Btw I note that you still have not addressed the Sefer Chassidim, as has no other lubavicher except for CS. Could you at least say something along the lines of, “I don’t know what to answer,” and leave it at that, rather that to hope it will just go away on its own. It won’t go away, just like the faulty sundial didn’t go away.
Was the Chofetz Chaim also involved in Kishuf? Was Reb Shachneh Zohn involved in Kishuf? And they weren’t the only ones who said that Moshiach is close.
So there are a few answers:
1. The simplest answer (and the one I feel most comfortable with) is that we are closer to Moshiach’s coming, as in, we’re 800 years closer. So in Rabbi Yehuda Hachassid’s time it was simply not true that Moshiach was almost here, so anyone (or any Malach) who said that must have been lying, while nowadays he is (though it depends on how you define “close”, in the grand scheme of the 2000 year exile, even the G-d Forbid 230 years until the year 6000 is close).
2. As Reb Yehoshua Mondshine wrote (back in 5753, before the Rebbe’s passing!):וכך מסופר בכתביו של הרה”ח ר’ יאשע שו”ב מבריסק (בעהמח”ס מנחת יוסף), בחלק שלא נתפרסם, כי לעת זקנתו ציוה מוהרמ”נ מטשערנאביל שלא לומר תחנון, וכך גם בנו מוהר”מ מטשערנאביל לעת זקנתו, ובנו המגיד מטריסק הסביר זאת כי נגלה להם אורו של משיח וסברו שהנה הנה משיח בא. וכך הי’ גם לעת זקנתו של המגיד מטריסק עצמו. והרבי מסלונים הסביר זאת שהם זיככו את חלק המשיח שבנשמתם וסברו שגם בעולם כולו משיח כבר נמצא. (ע”כ לפי כתבי ר”י הנ”ל).
And for the record, I did answer the sundial story previously.
The levels of yiras Shamayim in lubavich are R”L terrible (tznius is one obvious example that has been mentioned, but I can give more if necessary).
It depends which circles you hang out with.
There is absolutely no indication that the Bsh”t wanted limud chassidus (and of course chassidus chabad is for some reason the best) as the yesod of his “movement”.
Well, it’s true that Chassidus Chabad was a Chiddush of the Alter Rebbe (although I do vaguely remember that he tried to convince the Chevraya that Chabad was the true Derech of the Baal Shem Tov, they obviously didn’t accept it.).
But just because we have few Seforim from the Baal Shem Tov and the Maggid doesn’t say much. For example, in Chabad (not just Lubavitch), studying and meditating on “Toras Chabad” is and always was the primary method of becoming a Chossid. Yet, until Lubavitch came to America, the entire printed Chassidus would take up a small bookshelf. It was just that printing was expensive and the Rabbeim wanted Chassidim to work for their Chassidus. You can’t just go to a bookstore and buy a Maamer, you have to go to your friend, beg him for his priceless manuscripts, and make a handwritten copy for yourself. Or better yet, memorize it and internalize it.
But the Baal Shem Tov did spend time teaching Torah, and many of his Talmidim wrote Sifrei Chassidus (like Tzavaas Harivash, Keser Shem Tov, Toldos Yaakov Yosef, Ohr Torah from the Maggid). You think they wrote it to put on the bookshelf and never look at again?
But either way, even if it’s not an Ikkar of Chassidus, there’s definitely an Inyan to learn Pnimiyus Hatorah, as Reb Chaim Vital writes in the Hakdamah to the Shaar Hakdamos. So you don’t want to learn Sifrei Chabad? Learn Pnimiyus Hatorah of other Chassidus, or even non-Chassidic works of Pnimiyus Hatorah (Nefesh Hachayim).
Any Lubavicher I’ve asked.
Do you?
I think I’ve pointed this out before, but if I haven’t, I’ll say it now. If a person can sleep soundly in a Sukkah, he absolutely has a Chiyuv to sleep in a Sukkah. And I’m almost positive that the Rebbe said the same in that Sicha.
You responded to RSo’s question without addressing his point. He asked how the p’tur can come from the mitzvah itself
Another similar Sevarah is the clapping on Shabbos. How can you use Simchas Shabbos as a source to permit an Issur Derabanan on Shabbos? And you can ask rso’s question on him too, by the way. Did no one before the Baal Shem Tov have true Simchas Shabbos?
But let me ask you like this. A person has a mania that the Sukkah’s caving in on him. Would he be Chayav in Sukkah?
And as to your question of why we’d want to be lenient here, it’s a Kullah that brings to a Chumrah. Just like the early Chassidim weren’t makpid on Zman Tefilla to have better Kavanah, early Chassidim weren’t makpid on clapping on Shabbos in order to have a stronger Shabbos, so too early Chabad Chassidim (as well as some others) didn’t sleep in a Sukkah in order for them to have a stronger “feel” for a Sukkah. So while I wouldn’t start such a minhag, and the Rebbe wouldn’t start such a minhag, the Mitteler Rebbe (and since you asked me why I am lenient here, I, personally, think that this quote was said by the Mitteler Rebbe) was early enough to institute such customs.
Why do all the Lubavichers not sleep in the succah when probably none of them actually feel this tza’ar?
Who says that we don’t?
Sorry, but YOU have to find a source that tzaar that a person CAN fulfill the mitzva of sukkah is reason to exempt you from that very mitzva.
If it’s cold and you can bring in enough blankets to make it warm, but it’s too much of a shlep, you can sleep inside.
That’s why I feel like I’m going around in circles.
@Syag @Rso
And honestly, there’s no honest way someone could look at the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Sichos over all the years and say “This is someone who disregards Torah, who doesn’t care about Mitzvos, who cancels anything that inconveniences him”.
I already pointed out that the custom to not sleep in a Sukkah was from the Frierdickers time (at least). But that’s not the point. Saying that Lubavitch is about not learning Gemara, drinking, Davening late and not sleeping in a Sukkah is totally ignoring context. It’s like saying “The Gra? That person who broke all Minhagim he didn’t like while writing math books?” It’s true that he wrote a math book. It’s true that he did (or at least tried) to change a few old and respected customs (Duchening daily comes to mind). But he did write a lot of other things. He learned a ton of Torah and did Mitzvos BeHiddur. He was a holy Jew and a Tzaddik. And yes, he did a few controversial things. But you have to look in context.
The same thing was with Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky. His explanation for Yeshivas saying a Heicha Kedusha makes no sense[1] (to me). If a Bachur would tell me this as his own Sevara, I’d throw him out of Zal. But it doesn’t mean that I can be Mevazeh Reb Yaakov (chvsh). There’s context.
The same things here.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe spent 40 years, literally pushing for stronger Yiras Shamayim by both his Chassidim and by others. That (along with Rashi, Rambam, Gemara, and Chassidus shiurim) is pretty much the topic of all of his Farbrengens. Whether it’s beards, or banning college, or begging people to not send their children to secular studies (and read secular material altogether, even things like (kosher!) newspapers!), whether it’s talking about taking time Davening, meditating on Hashem’s greatness before Davening. Whether it’s the campaign for Chassidim to learn Halacha. Whether it’s among his Chassidim, whether it’s among the Jewish masses as a whole (how many hundreds or thousands of fully frum BT happened through the Mitzvah campaigns? How many non-Lubavitcher BTs happened through the Mitzvah campaigns?
And all you can say to this is “Oh Lubavitch? Those people who don’t sleep in a Sukkah?”
[1]. As I said before, there’s no earlier source that a Yeshiva isn’t Chayav in Chazaras Hashatz, and anyways, it’s a Tartei Desasrei: If Yeshivas aren’t Chayav in Chazaras Hashatz, they shouldn’t be allowed to do a Heicha Kedusha, since Heicha Kedusha’s a replacement of Chazaras Hashatz.
For some reason it seems every time a Lubavitch concept/issue was proved inappropriate the posters decide it’s sinam chinam and call us haters.
First of all, nothing was proven.
But regarding the issue of Sinas Chinam:
While I’m a Lubavitcher, I (as I said before) do hang around other circles, including the Litvish world. And the unfortunate truth is, that I know that however “normal” a Lubavitcher may be, there will be politics against us. For example, however normal and learned SHY may be, and however anti-meshichist he may be, and however many times he may say that he doesn’t believe that the Rebbe’s Moshiach, if he’ll go on Shlichus and start a Chabad house, learn classical Gemara and Shulchan Aruch with his mekurovim, and will send them to Yeshivas, he’ll still be an “outsider” to the Yeshivish world.
As an example, in my community there’s a Lubavitch shliach. He’s a Lamdan, Frum, and Anti Meshichist. He teaches his Baalei Battim real Torah (Gemara and Rishonim, Shulchan Aruch), and many of his Mekurovim are now fully Frum Jews, some Chabad and some Litvish. A Litvisher Yeshivish Rabbi moved into town, and stared going around town saying that he doesn’t teach “Real Torah”. That he’s ignorant. That he’s not Frum.
And I happen to know the Litvisher Rov and the Lubavitcher Shliach personally, and I can vouch 100% that the Lubavitcher is head and shoulders more Machmir than the Litvisher. But that doesn’t stop him from bad mouthing the Lubavitcher.
And this is not the only case I know like this. It happens many times in my community.
Have we just tired you out or are you really out of answers?
I have a life outside the coffeeroom, the Gemaras call, you know.
Just two examples: Despite all that has been said, no non-lubavicher will accept the “lomdus” behind the reason why it is a higher madreiga not to sleep in a sukkah.
I don’t find a point in going around in circles. Have you found a source that:
1. Emotional Tzaar isn’t Tzaar. and
2. Tzaar has to be that strong that he will not be able to do the act.the classic mussar seforim, and therefore the shmuesn in Litvishe yeshivos, don’t focus on reward and punishment.
Which was my point. You don’t focus on reward and punishment for various reasons, and neither do we. You believe in reward and punishment, and so do we. It unfortunately doesn’t stop you completely from sinning, and unfortunately it doesn’t stop us.
The thing is like this. I, unfortunately, am not a “Beinoni who Davens all day”. Some Mitzvos I keep because of Mitzvos Anashim Melumada, some I keep because of communal pressure, sometimes I do have to pull out the Gehenom card (The Rebbe Rashab did say that it’s better to not sin from fear of punishment than to sin). And unfortunately, sometimes, well, חציף עלי דמפריט חטאיה.
The thing that Chassidus (at least Chabad. I’m not fluent enough in the other Seforim well enough to comment on their Hashkafas) does say, is that:
1. ובבינוני יש ג”כ שתי מדרגות עובד אלהים ואשר לא עבדו ואעפ”כ אינו רשע כי לא עבר מימיו שום עבירה קלה וגם קיים כל המצות שאפשר לו לקיימן ותלמוד תורה כנגד כולם ולא פסיק פומיה מגירסא אלא שאינו עושה שום מלחמה עם היצר לנצחו ע”י אור ה’ המאיר על נפש האלהית שבמוח השליט על הלב כנ”ל מפני שאין יצרו עומד לנגדו כלל לבטלו מתורתו ועבודתו ואין צריך ללחום עמו כלל כגון שהוא מתמיד בלמודו בטבעו מתולדתו על ידי תגבורת המרה שחורה וכן אין לו מלחמה מתאות נשים מפני שהוא מצונן בטבעו וכן בשאר תענוגי עוה”ז הוא מחוסר הרגש הנאה בטבעו ולכן אין צריך להתבונן כל כך בגדולת ה’ להוליד מבינתו רוח דעת ויראת ה’ במוחו להשמר שלא לעבור על מצות ל”ת ואהבת ה’ בלבו לדבקה בו בקיום המצות ות”ת כנגד כולן אלא די לו באהבה מסותרת אשר בלב כללות ישראל שנקראו אוהבי שמו ולכן אינו נקרא עובד כלל כי אהבה זו המסותרת אינה פעולתו ועבודתו כלל אלא היא ירושתנו מאבותינו לכלל ישראל וכמ”ש לקמן.
(Tanya Perek 15)
2. והיינו אפילו אם אינו עוסק שלא לשמה ממש, לשום איזו פניה חס ושלום, אלא כמו שכתוב: “ותהי יראתם אותי מצות אנשים מלומדה”. פירוש, מחמת הרגל שהורגל מקטנותו, שהרגילו ולימדו אביו ורבו לירא את ה’ ולעובדו, ואינו עוסק לשמה ממש. כי לשמה ממש אי אפשר בלא התעוררות דחילו ורחימו הטבעיים על כל פנים, להוציאן מהסתר הלב אל הגילוי במוח ותעלומות לבו על כל פנים. כי כמו שאין אדם עושה דבר בשביל חבירו למלאות רצונו, אלא אם כן אוהבו או ירא ממנו, כך אי אפשר לעשות לשמו יתברך באמת, למלאות רצונו לבד, בלי זכרון והתעוררות אהבתו ויראתו כלל במוחו ומחשבתו ותעלומות לבו על כל פנים. וגם אהבה לבדה אינה נקראת בשם עבודה בלי יראה תתאה לפחות, שהיא מסותרת בלב כל ישראל, כמו שיתבאר לקמן.
(Tanya Perek 39)
But yes, I agree with rso’s Rabbi to some degree. There are people take a quote (“I don’t want your Gan Eden and I don’t want Your Olam Habah. I just want You Yourself”) that takes years and years of hard Avodah to be able to say with truth, don’t do the required Avodah, and yet repeat it like it’s just basics. But there are people that (I think) actually do experience this feeling (at least once in a while 🙂 ).
Do people outside Lubavitch koch in Gan Eden or Gehenom on a daily basis? The few Mussar Shmoozes that I listened talked about much more mundane things. I definitely don’t remember the Rosh Yeshiva having a particular focus on the different levels of Gehenom and the different tortures found in each one.
The incentives and punishments in that Yeshiva were much more mundane. Respect for being good, and some sort of Knas for being bad.
35 page recap pls
Your Alter Bochur friend wants to marry a Lubavitcher and go on Shlichus. Discuss.
however, Tosfos (Shabbos 52b) writes that the Yerushalmi had a different nusach in the possuk!
Where does Tosfos say that? I don’t see it there.
Nonetheless, even if we take it that the Yerushalmi had a different nusach, the Yerushalmi itself concludes that the possuk means that the Plishtim were scared of Shimshon for 20 years after his death. So even the Yerushalmi does not say the he was a shofet after his death.
The proof isn’t from the Pasuk, it’s from the Yerushalmi.
The Maharsha (on Sotah 10a) says:
ותירצו המפרשים בזה לפי שכפל הענין לכתוב שני פעמים ששפט כ’ שנה וע”כ אמר כתוב אחד אומר כ’ שנה והיינו קרא קמא וכתוב אחד דהיינו קרא שני הוסיף עוד עשרים שנה דה”ל ארבעים עם עשרים הראשונים ומשני התם דפלשתים היו יראים ממנו כ’ שנה אחר מותו ולפי דרך זה יש לקיים גירסת תלמוד שלנו דכצ”ל זכור לי עשרים שתים שנה דר”ל זכור שתי פעמים עשרים שנה דכתיבי בשני פסוקים דהיינו ארבעים שנה ואפשר שחלקן הכתוב משום דבקרא קמא מפורש וישפוט את ישראל בימי פלשתים עשרים שנה דהיינו בעוד שהיו פלשתים מושלים עשרים שנה ובאידך קרא לא כתב בימי פלשתים שנכנעו שוב בעשרים שנה השניים שפט אותן כ’ שנה דה”ל שני פעמים עשרים דהיינו מ’ שנה ודו”ק:
So according to the Yerushalmi, one Pasuk (one “20 year” period) refers to when Shimshon was alive, and the second Pasuk (the second “20 year” period) refers to Shimshon after his passing. So when the Pasuk said “ה֛וּא שָׁפַ֥ט אֶת־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל עֶשְׂרִ֥ים שָׁנָֽה”, it calls him a Shofet even after his passing. True, after he was killed he didn’t do much of what a Shofet did. But it seems that scaring away the Plishtim was enough to give him the title of a Shofet.
They clearly percieved it within the system. The Ramabm goes on as everyone knows and says only later false prophets took them away from Hashem, they remembered who they ultimately were serving, just they had an intemidiary. An I termediary who was closer to Hashem, who if they honored also honerd Hashem ect..
The mistake they made was that Hashem never told us to worship the stars, while Hashem did tell us to cling to Torah scholars, and clinging to Torah scholars does increase our service of Hashem. On a simple level, the Torah scholar teaches us Torah and tells us how to do Mitzvos. On a deeper level, he inspires us to serve Hashem, and on an even deeper level, by teaching us פנימיות התורה he inspires us to serve Hashem with a Chayus, with דחילו ורחימו. In other words, the entire Tachlis of connecting to a Talmid Chacham is so that he’ll guide us in serving Hashem. In contrast, the stars said “you can’t serve Hashem. He’s too lofty. Serve me instead and I’ll take care of the rest”.
Not that I am aware of but why would that matter?
Because you can argue Sevara from today till tomorrow. Without sources it’s a useless debate. It’s a Yeshiva world coffeeroom. In Yeshivas, it’s common to try to find Mekoros :).
And it’s as much of a request from RSo, DY, SHY, YR as it is of you. Can you cite sources (from before 1994) who said that it’s Lav Davka “killed”?
The Rebbe as you know was very into diyukim in rashi and Rambam as they were written with ruach hakodesh.
Yes, I trust the Rebbe’s Diyukim, or Reb Chaim Brisker’s diyukim, and all the more so the Kessef Mishna and the Maggid Mishna’s Diyukim. Not mine or yours.
But that’s what I’m looking for, sources one way or the other.
Before gimmel tammuz no one cared to look too closely at the lashon because there was no need.
That’s why I’m specifically looking for a source pre 1994.
not sure why you write dismissively it was a typo?aside from the fact that we don’t eat fish and milk because of a typo and not even one in the gemara – what gives you the right to think that? This is gemara…
I wasn’t dismissive. It’s just known than the Yerushalmi has a lot of typos, since it wasn’t (and isn’t) learned nearly as often as the Bavli. It also had fewer Kisvei Yad for the same reason. Especially when it quotes a Pasuk that doesn’t exist.
It does NOT say that he was shofet for 40 years. Rather it says twice that he was shofet 20 years. The Radak discusses this and he is the one who cites a midrash which says that the second time it says it to indicate that the Plishtim were scared of him for twenty years after his petirah.
The Yerushalmi (Sotah) does, but it’s most likely a typo.
. כתוב אחד אומר וישפוט את ישראל מ’ שנה. וכתוב א’ אומר (שם) והוא שפט את ישראל ך’ שנה. אמר ר’ אחא מלמד שהיו הפלשתים יראים ממנו ך’ שנה לאחר מותו כדרך שהיו יראים ממנו ך’ שנה בחייו:
Note the Rambam never discusses what happens if the bchezkas moshiach passes away naturally. He only says two things disqualify: If he is unsuccessful or if he is killed”
OK. I’ll ask the million dollar question.
Instead of hashing it out, let’s talk sources. Can someone find a source, any source, that mentions this Diyuk or argues on this Diyuk from before 1994?
But we do מצות for Hashem not for שכר
We don’t (or at least, we shouldn’t) make a דירה בתחתונים for our benefit. And Moshiach isn’t solely for our benefit. Like the famous Rambam:
לֹא נִתְאַוּוּ הַחֲכָמִים וְהַנְּבִיאִים יְמוֹת הַמָּשִׁיחַ. לֹא כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּשְׁלְטוּ עַל כָּל הָעוֹלָם. וְלֹא כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּרְדּוּ בָּעַכּוּ”ם. וְלֹא כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּנַשְּׂאוּ אוֹתָם הָעַמִּים. וְלֹא כְּדֵי לֶאֱכל וְלִשְׁתּוֹת וְלִשְׂמֹחַ. אֶלָּא כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּהְיוּ פְּנוּיִין בַּתּוֹרָה וְחָכְמָתָהּ
He explains that they wanted to stay in the Midbor was because their Avodas Hashem would be better there, but the Chidushei Horim explains that it is not their business to make a cheshbon like that.
Interesting. The Alter Rebbe asked the same question, and gave a slightly different answer (Likkutei Torah 37b – 38b)
יש להקדים שרש ענין המעשה דמרגלים למעלה במה שלא רצו ליכנס לארץ ישראל וגינו אותה כו’. הנה מבואר בע”ח דשרש המרגלים הוא מבחי’ עולם המחשב’ הנק’ לאה כי הם היו מדור המדבר שנקראו דור דעה ועל כן לא רצו להשפיל א”ע ליכנס לארץ ישראל שהוא מבחי’ עולם הדבור הנק’ רחל. ולהבין ביאור הדברים הללו בהיות ידוע שעיקר המצוה בכניסת א”י הוא כמ”ש לעשות בארץ כו’. דהיינו לקיים שם התורה והמצות כי יש כמה מצות שתלוי’ בארץ דוקא כמו בנין בית המקדש ודומיהן כו’. והענין הוא כי הנה עיקר התורה והמצות הוא להבדיל בין הטהור ובין הטמא דהיינו בחי’ ברורים לברר הטוב מן הרע שעל ידי השבירה דמלכין קדמאין דתהו נפלו רפ”ח ניצוצין דתהו ונתלבשו בנוגה להיות מעורבי’ טו”ר כידוע והם צריכים עלייה והיינו ע”י שיתבררו ויופרדו תחלה מן הרע הקשור בהם ואז יהיו יכולים אחר כך להתעלות למעלה למקור שרשן והוא ענין המצות מעשיות מ”ע ומל”ת שע”י הל”ת נפרד הטוב מן הרע וע”י העשיה הוא בחי’ עליית הטוב למעלה כו’
ד ואחר כל הנ”ל יובן ג”כ ענין המעשה דמרגלים שלא רצו ליכנס לא”י מפני ששרשם הוא מבחי’ לאה עולם המחשבה כו’ (כמ”ש בע”ח שער הארת המוחין פ”א) וטענו למה צריכים לירד בבחי’ עולם הדבור שהוא בחי’ מל’ דאצילות סוף כל דרגין כו’ בכדי לקיים שם התורה ומצות בדבור ובמעשה שעי”ז יהיה בחי’ גילוי אור א”ס שיבקעו האורות כו’ הלא זה אפשר לקיים גם ע”י התורה ומצות ברוחניות ולא בעשייה גשמיות דהיינו כי גם בעולם המחשבה יש כל פרטים הנמצאים בדבור ובמעשה מאחר שהדבור נמשך מן המחשבה. וא”כ כל מצוה ומצוה שמקיים בדבור או במעשה גשמיות יכול הוא לקיימה ברוחניות בבחינת מחשבה. ועי”ז יהיה ג”כ למעלה בחי’ גילוי אור א”ס כו’.
אך באמת היו מוטעים שהעיקר הוא לעשותם בארץ דוקא וכמארז”ל כמה תפלות התפלל משה ליכנס לא”י ושאלו וכי לאכול מפירותיה היה צריך אלא לקיים את המצות התלוים בה והיינו שצריך להמשיך את האורות העליונים שיבקעו את הכלים כו’ שאי אפשר לגרום המשכה זו אם לא ע”י מעשה דוקא ולא במחשבה כו’.
In short, the Alter Rebbe holds that the meraglim’s issue is that they didn’t want to make the דירה בתחתונים.
To use a very simple moshol hedyot, a mother tells her son to eat breakfast. Her reason for doing so is so that he will have the necessary strength to function properly at school. But as far as the Torah is concerned his ONLY reason for eating breakfast is to be mekayem kibbud eim and do what his mother says.
That would be true if Hashem (in a Midrash) had never told us the whole דירה בתחתונים thing. But obviously Hashem wanted us to know what Mitzvos accomplish, or He wouldn’t have told us.
If he starts making cheshbonos that the reason his mother told him to eat is to give him strength, he is very likely to decide that he has enough strength, or that he will eat later, and the like, and he may not be mekayem kibbud eim.
That would be true if it would be a side reason. But as learning Torah and doing Mitzvos is making a דירה בתחתונים, and a דירה בתחתונים can only be accomplished through learning Torah and doing Mitzvos, the danger isn’t there.
we don’t do mizvos in order to get s’cher, likewise we don’t do mizvos to bring Moshiach.
First of all, Moshiach isn’t a Schar per se. It’s a different stage in Avodas Hashem.
הענין הנה אמרז”ל אין בין עולם הזה לימות המשיח אלא שעבוד בלבד כי ימות המשיח אינו עוה”ב שלאחר התחיה. שזהו מתן שכרן של צדיקים. אבל ימות המשיח הוא בבחי’ היום לעשותם ולא לקבל שכרן. ועיקר היום לעשותם ותכלית השלימות של המעשה יהיה בימות המשיח.
(Torah Ohr D’h אסרי לגפן עירה ולשורקה בני אתונו).
תחיית המתים is סחר.
It’s also why the world was created: If you look at Chapter 36 of Tanya, it says there true דירה בתחתונים will be when Moshiach will come and תחיית המתים will happen.
So sure, we do Mitzvos because that’s what Hashem wants, but at the same time, Hashem wants a דירה בתחתונים, which means that Hashem wants Moshiach. All we’re saying is that these three “wants” are connected.
Small response to many of the above. (@Sam specifically):
From Chapter 36 of Tanya:
והנה תכלית השתלשלו’ העולמו’ וירידתם ממדרגה למדרגה אינו בשביל עולמות העליוני’ הואיל ולהם ירידה מאור פניו ית’ אלא התכלית הוא עו”הז התחתון שכך עלה ברצונו ית’ להיות נחת רוח לפניו ית’ כד אתכפיא ס”א ואתהפך חשוכא לנהורא שיאיר אור ה’ אין סוף ב”ה במקום החשך והס”א של כל עוה”ז כולו ביתר שאת ויתר עז ויתרון אור מן החשך מהארתו בעולמות עליונים שמאיר שם ע”י לבושים והסתר פנים המסתירים ומעלימים אור א”ס ב”ה שלא יבטלו במציאות. ולזה נתן הקב”ה לישראל את התורה שנקר’ עוז וכח וכמארז”ל שהקב”ה נותן כח בצדיקים לקבל שכרם לעתיד לבא שלא יתבטלו במציאות ממש באור ה’ הנגלה לעתיד בלי שום לבוש כדכתיב ולא יכנף עוד מוריך [פי’ שלא יתכסה ממך בכנף ולבוש] והיו עיניך רואות את מוריך וכתיב כי עין בעין יראו וגו’ וכתיב לא יהיה לך עוד השמש לאור יומם וגו’ כי ה’ יהיה לך לאור עולם וגו’. ונודע שימות המשיח ובפרט כשיחיו המתים הם תכלית ושלימות בריאות עולם הזה שלכך נברא מתחילתו:
And 37:
והנה תכלית השלימות הזה של ימות המשיח ותחיית המתים שהוא גילוי אור א”ס ב”ה בעו”הז הגשמי תלוי במעשינו ועבודתנו כל זמן משך הגלות כי הגורם שכר המצוה היא המצוה בעצמה כי בעשייתה ממשיך האדם גילוי אור א”ס ב”ה מלמעלה למטה להתלבש בגשמיות עוה”ז בדבר שהיה תחלה תחת ממשלת קליפת נוגה ומקבל חיותה ממנה שהם כל דברים הטהורים ומותרי’ שנעשית בהם המצוה מעשיית כגון קלף התפילין ומזוזה וספר תורה וכמאמר רז”ל לא הוכשר למלאכת שמים אלא טהורים ומותרים בפיך. וכן אתרוג שאינו ערלה:
And the reason of having tzaar because you’re not having tzaar is not considered valid by anyone who is not a brainwashed lubavicher.
It’s a Leshitascha. You (and DY, NCB) believe that the Frierdiker Rebbe wrote fiction. So the quote Beshem the Mitteler Rebbe (“How can one sleep in Makifin DeBina?”) was fiction. If it’s fiction, than any Tzaar we have from that quote is fictional, and fictional Tzaar doesn’t Patur you from the Sukkah. Although you haven’t sourced that fictional Tzaar doesn’t Patur you from a Sukkah either, btw. The only thing you said was that it was wrong for the Rabbeim to give us this Tzaar.
But Lubavitchers (and the Lubavitcher Rebbe) didn’t believe that the Frierdiker Rebbe’s writing fiction. So this quote was actually said by the Mitteler Rebbe, and there is an inyan not to sleep in a Sukkah if you:
1. Aren’t on a holy enough level to be in control of yourself in your sleep and,
2. You realize the holiness of a Sukkah.So according to us, it’s quite a reasonable psychological tzaar (The Sukkah itself makes us feeling guilty when we sleep there). And I’m still waiting for a source that psychological Tzaar doesn’t count.
If someone will sleep, it’s a chiyuv to do so in the sukkah.
You and rso repeat this position again and again. Can you source that the Petur of Tashvu KeEin Taduru only applies when you can’t eat/drink/sleep? For example. I can sleep in a cold Sukkah, but it’s just a lot of work to move blankets outside. Or someone who’s scared that he’ll be robbed. Can you show me where it says that you have to be that scared that you won’t be able to fall asleep from fear? Or where does it say that it has to be that cold that you won’t be able to fall asleep? Or that if I’m two hours away from a Sukkah, I have to drive there and can’t eat outside because I can hypothetically eat in a Sukkah?
The R’ma is specifically talking about when/where it’s cold,
I found this sefer, where it says that the custom in Egypt was to be lenient about sleeping in a Sukkah, because the air is foul and there’s a concern that he may get cold.
I looked up the average weather in Cairo in September is 72 and in October is 67 degrees Fahrenheit. Bnei Brak’s (October) average is also 67, Tuscon (ditto) is 59, Phoenix is 66, Melbourne is 46, Cape Town is 53, Miami is the only major Jewish community which is an outlier, is on average 74. And I’m not counting Montreal, Chicago, New York, or Toronto since those are quite obviously way colder than Egypt.
If Egypt is cold enough that the general custom wasn’t to sleep in a Sukkah, can you name me where it isn’t?
(See צפנת פענח on the רמב”ם ה’ סוכה פ”ו ה”ב.)
Just to point out, the Sicha says that the Alter Rebbe doesn’t Paskin like that Rogatchover, but that doesn’t change the rest of the answer you gave.
Then he needs to see a doctor. I don’t believe any non-Lubavich Rov in the world will accept that one can consider not having tzaar as the cause of tzaar that patters one from a sukkah.
The real Shaalah is if psychological stress counts as Tzaar. Did you see anyone discussing this question?
Another practical Nafka Minah – someone lives in a safe neighborhood but is paranoid that he’s going to be mugged, so it’s extremely hard for him to fall asleep in the Sukkah. He has no psychological medications on him. Is he Chayav to sleep in a Sukkah? What if he’s in such a state that had this been his house, he would have left and moved into a next door bunker? Is he still Chayav to sleep in a Sukkah?
Thus, the Rebbe has full control over his talmidim, both in life and in death, because he had full control during his life. Thus any person who wants to get close to the rebbe has to first become a talmud of him,
Sorry, I think DY would/should still call you out for Kefirah for saying that, because the issue isn’t about the Kamus of control, but the Eichus – saying that someone has “power” would be the same problem of Shituf (think about it, saying that the Sun has power over those who worship it is outright Avodah Zarah).
Rebbes don’t have any independent power, just as the sun doesn’t have any independent power. All the power that they have is what Hashem gives them.
It shows nothing of the sort. Nobody disputes that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe had a very wide reaching influence. This itself is reason enough for Gedolai Yisroel to visit / respond.
How often did the Mishneh Halachos visit leaders of Kefira movements (and write Zatzal after their name)? Did the Gerrer Rebbe visit the head of Reform of America because of his wide influence? Or how often did the Minchas Yitzchak write “הגה”צ” on leaders of Kefira movements, and quote him in his Shu”t?
Doersh el HaMaitim
See the Minchas Elazar where he mentions that there’s a Gemara (Berachos 18b) – among others – that Shmuel and Zeiri went to Gan Eden and “Chatzer Maves” to ask his father and his landlord, respectively. He says that it’s unimaginable that Amoraim would violate Doresh El Hameisim over financial matters. Oh, and he also mentioned that the Arizal sent his students to prostrate themselves on graves of Tanayim and Amoraim so they would teach them Sisrei Torah. Look there at length.
The Idea that it is somehow legitamite to play fast and loose with Halacha to justify minhagim.
Look at the Minchas Elazar who justifies clapping on Shabbos, dancing on Shabbos, eating in a Sukkah in the rain, or not eating in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres. Or look up all the places where even the Shulchan Aruch says “… יש ללמוד זכות על”. It’s not rare. Lubavitch is by far not the only community which does those rare things, which, on a surface level, violates Halacha. See the Minchas Elazars I mention above. Oh, and Lubavitch isn’t the only community which doesn’t sleep in a Sukkah, other Chassidic communities did the same.
(Yes @rso, your Tayna isn’t on the etzem not sleeping in a Sukkah. Your Tayna is on the logic of the Moreh Hetter. But you’re not the only one here.)
You still have not answered my question re: the end of the Sukkah Sicha, where chassidim can be soimech on the tzaar of the Rebbe.
I just looked through the Sicha, and didn’t find where the Sicha says that. Can you point which Syif? The only thing that I could find that sounds similar is a previous point, where the Rebbe says that the Rabbeim didn’t sleep in a Sukkah since they felt the holiness there. And since Chassidim generally tried imitating their Rebbe, the inability to do so would cause them (emotional) distress. So even according to that point, sleeping in a Sukkah would cause Chassidim some kind of distress, and that distress Paters them from sleeping in a Sukkah.
But that wasn’t the final answer. The final answer was that pain freeing you from sleeping in a Sukkah is the guilty feeling.
You are alone in that respect.
I think that Sechel Hayashar is also.
Second, I said nothing about the Baal Hatanya, I commented on the leap that his words apply to your rebbe.
The comparison between “The Rebbe never sinned” and “Pharaoh never went to the bathroom” implies that:
1. It’s impossible. Arguing on the Tanya, but I will admit that it’s quite possible that it’s within your rights, as it’s quite possible that other Gedolim argued on the Tanya on that point.
2. It’s Avoda Zara or Kefira to say such a thing about a person, any person. Which is implying that the Tanya is Avoda Zarah or Kefira. And it’s to this point I objected. But hey, if you didn’t mean that, I take it back.or knowing a gadol spoke to your rebbe and stating, “so you see the gadol held of the rebbe”. This was my complaint, that a definition of a term becomes proof that your rebbe qualifies.
It depends on what you mean by “holding”. I agree, that just because, say, Reb Moshe was on decent terms with the Rebbe doesn’t mean that he felt that his Piskei Dinim were binding or was his Chossid, and Aderaba, he argued on the Rebbe many times. But it does show that despite all the questions people have here on the Rebbe and on Lubavitch, he held that he was Bichlal Amisecha, was not a Kofer, and was worth responding to. And all the more so, when a Gedol visits the Rebbe, it shows that he views the Rebbe as someone worth visiting. I mean, I have a lot of friends in NY, and the Mishne Halachos never visited them, so you can imply that the Mishna Halachos viewed the Rebbe higher than he viewed my friends. Now it obviously didn’t make the Mishna Halachos the Rebbe’s Chossid, and it wouldn’t surprise me to know that he argued on the Rebbe. But it shows that he viewed the Rebbe as a Gadol (he did write Zatzal after the Rebbe’s name).
I hear a lot about our alleged disrespect of your rebbe. As has been explained many times, if you listen carefully to what we know to be problematic in his words, you should be praising us for defending torah. Regardless of whether or not you agree with our conclusion, you have to accept that since it is our conclusion per Da’as Torah, our response is exactly what it should be.
It is true, that if your Rov (the one who is your final Posek, the one you listen to LeChumra VeLekula) is one of those who’s actively fighting Lubavitch, Al Pi Halacha you’re probably obligated to do so too. But it’s simply not true that every single Litvish Gadol opposed the Rebbe and Chabad. Especially now, some of those who fought Lubavitch have calmed down their fights, and while they probably disagree with us in Hashkafa, they definitely aren’t waging war. Reb Aharon Teitelbaum (one of the Satmar Rebbe), for example, for example, davens in Chabad when he goes to Palm Springs. So while I’m not saying he endorses Chabad and our Hashkafos, he definitely doesn’t view it as a house of Kefira.
There’s online evidence that she didn’t cover her hair k’halacha
I’ve seen that there’s a Nshei Chabad newsletter who interviewed her Sheitel Macher of the last 20 years of her life.
Now, it’s not good evidence, as she’s a Lubavitcher and could be covering up. But there’s no reason for the Rebbetzin to have gotten her Shaitels from outside Lubavitch. So while there’s no smoking gun that she wore a Shaitel, there’s no reason to assume she didn’t.
For the record, Rebbetzin Nechama Dina (the Frierdiker Rebbe’s Rebbetzin) wore a Shaitel Lav Davka with a hat, Rebbetzin Shterna Sarah wore a Shaitel Lav Davka with a hat, and we don’t have pictures of any of the earlier Rebbetzins.
and I’ve heard that she wore pants.
After a quick search, the only source of that I was able to find online was FailedMessiah (and in the comment section, a few people asked for a source. They didn’t get any response).
I hope you don’t get your information from that rag.
it’s not different than getting a fortune cookie during a difficult time, when you meed some advice, and thinking “Hashem put this very cookie, in my hand, at this moment! I could have taken any other one, or eaten somewhere else! After all, Hashem does run every aspect of my life, this must be a message!”
Without defending the practice, the Heteirim to do a Goral HaGra don’t apply to fortune cookies.
That explains everything. She has a different Shas than the rest of us and in all the extra pages in her Shas it says all the weird things she writes!
This isn’t quite fair. She’s a female (as her username shows) and doesn’t know Gemaras. You, on the other hand, are a man, learned Gemara, and should realize that it’s a typo. The original Gemara (which I think that she’s referring to) is on 10b:
ה”ל ההיא נקרתא דהוה עיילא מביתיה לבית רבי כל יומא הוה מייתי תרי עבדי חד קטליה אבבא דבי רבי וחד קטליה אבבא דביתיה א”ל בעידנא דאתינא לא נשכח גבר קמך ומא חד אשכחיה לר’ חנינא בר חמא דהוה יתיב אמר לא אמינא לך בעידנא דאתינא לא נשכח גבר קמך א”ל לית דין בר איניש א”ל אימא ליה לההוא עבדא דגני אבבא דקאים וליתי אזל ר’ חנינא בר חמא אשכחיה דהוה קטיל אמר היכי אעביד אי איזיל ואימא ליה דקטיל אין משיבין על הקלקלה אשבקיה ואיזיל קא מזלזלינן במלכותא בעא רחמי עליה ואחייה ושדריה אמר ידענא זוטי דאית בכו מחיה מתים מיהו בעידנא דאתינא לא נשכח איניש קמך
So I’m pattur from eating in the sukkah if I start thinking about the tzaar I’m going to have later if I have to shlep blankets to the sukka when I go to sleep?! Are you really saying that?
If you’re (really) having a panic attack every time you see a Sukkah, I could see a hetter to not eat in a sukkah.
Let me ask you. If someone has true PTSD from a Sukkah. Let’s say someone saw his entire family killed in the Holocaust in a Sukkah, and he himself came within an inch of death, so that whenever he sits in a Sukkah he breaks down in tears, would he be Chayav in Sukkah? From the Klal “Tashvu KeEin Taduru”, I would say no.
Seriously? That is the “proof” that we dont respect our tzaddikim and gedolim!? Because we are honest about who they are?! Did you know paroah told the mitzrim he didnt go to the bathroom and they believed that, does that mean they had even more respect for their leader?
It’s not a proof of anything. But if I was an Egyptian talking to another Egyptian, I would say that we respect Pharaoh more than “you” respect Moshe.
Our gedolim and rabbeim are HOLY yidden, not because we think they are god, super human, or free of sin (something we would have NO way of knowing), but because they surround themselves in kedusha. Their yeshivos, offices, kehillas, speech, approach to others is filled with kedusha. And their homes are surrounded by and filled with kedusha thanks to the akeres habayis who is ALWAYS the personification of tznius is behavior and dress.
I agree with you. The Rebbe was definitely very holy, both in terms of Chumros, and in terms of his learning, and in terms of what he surrounded himself with.
I think that you’re missing the context of the conversation. From context, I thought that someone (Chossid) was getting this close to insulting the Gedolim. So I told him that while you do argue with us on how to relate to Gedolim on certain matters, you do, on the whole, relate to your Gedolim with pretty much the same respect that we respect the Rebbe. I never said that you don’t respect your Gedolim.
What happened was, that @np asked what do we argue about in terms of respect. So I quoted a Tanya that you seem to disagree with. This Tanya wasn’t something I made up, or the current Lubavitcher Rebbe made up. It’s an explicit Tanya. While I’m not saying that your Rabbonim can’t argue on him, but he was an accepted Rov, his Shulchan Aruch was quoted in the Mishna Brura, many Lubavitch Chassidim were accepted Poskim, outside the Lubavitch world, throughout the generations (such as the Toras Chesed and Reb Avrohom Chaim Naeh). I think that it would be appropriate to treat his works with the basic respect that they deserve.
Did you ever meet the wives of our gedolim, did you ever read stories about them or talk to people who knew them? These women, the akeres habayis of our gedolim made sure their husbands were surrounded by kedusha. Which, as you see in the quote above above, is the souce of yiras shomayim and cannot be found where there is a lack of tznius.
I’m a man (and so is everyone else on this thread except for @cs and you), so I don’t think it’s very Tzniyus to discuss details, but there are just about 5 pictures of the Rebbetzin that I was able to find. They all look pretty Tzniyus to me.
But the truth is, that while I think I’ve been pretty respectful to your circle and your Gedolim, you don’t seem to be very respectful to other people’s Gedolim.
@Rso and @DaasYochid
The Sukkah doesn’t have to cause Tzaar itself. It just can’t be an independent Tzaar (like thinking about dragging blankets while eating):
שהסוכה מצערתו כגון חמה או צינה או סירחה בדברים שסיכך בהן
Sun or cold doesn’t come from the Sukkah itself, and it Patturs one from sleeping in the Sukkah.
The only thing is, Tzaar can’t be something that won’t stop by moving inside (like Aveilus, one’s Meis won’t come back to life if he moves outside the Sukkah). On the other hand, sleeping in the Sukkah is causing me Tzaar, since when I’ll try to sleep in the Sukkah, the Sukkah itself is constantly reminds me that I’m an Oisvarf. In the house, it’s not in my face.
1) I want to reiterate that the “proof ” for initiating communication with a Tzadik who passed away from the Ari Z”l who learned Torah from RSHB”Y is a false move. The Ari Z”l did nothing to initiate that communication.
Here’s an example of the Arizal telling his student a certain Yichud, and since that student didn’t listen to the Arizal (he talked to someone when he shouldn’t have), the Neshama didn’t reveal anything.
Surely you know what the last Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote in the sicha regarding not sleeping in a Sukkah Why are you changing it’s content? It is, after all, the svora in the sicha that Rso was asking about.
How am I changing its content? That HaArah was in the original Sicha.
I”m still interested to hear in what way Chabad Chassidim respect their Rebbe more then other Yidden respect their Rabbonim. You said that their is a machlokes re: degree of required respect. Please elaborate.
Can and do Rebbes sin? According to what I’ve read here and on previous posts, the Litvish Hashkafa is that everyone, including Gedolim, sin, to some degree or other. Sure, they won’t do anything major, Cv”s. but everyone has some minute sin in them. The Tanya, on the other hand, says that a Beinoni doesn’t sin, and a Tzaddik doesn’t have a Yetzer Hara:
Chapter 10:
והנה כשהאדם מגביר נפשו האלהית ונלחם כל כך עם הבהמית עד שמגרש ומבער הרע שבה מחלל השמאלי כמו שנאמר “ובערת הרע מקרבך” ואין הרע נהפך לטוב ממש נקרא צדיק שאינו גמור וצדיק ורע לו דהיינו שיש בו עדיין מעט מזער רע בחלל השמאלי אלא שכפוף ובטל לטוב מחמת מיעוטו ולכן נדמה לו כי ויגרשהו וילך לו כולו לגמרי אבל באמת אלו חלף והלך לו לגמרי כל הרע שבו היה נהפך לטוב ממש. וביאור הענין כי הנה צדיק גמור שנהפך הרע שלו לטוב ולכן נקרא צדיק וטוב לו הוא על ידי הסרת הבגדים הצואים לגמרי מהרע דהיינו למאוס מאד בתענוגי עולם הזה להתענג בם בתענוגות בני אדם למלאת תאות הגוף בלבד ולא לעבודת ה’ מפני היותם נמשכים ונשפעים מהקליפה וסטרא אחרא וכל מה שהוא מהסטרא אחרא הצדיק גמור הוא שונאו בתכלית השנאה מחמת גודל אהבתו לה’ וקדושתו באהבה רבה בתענוגים וחיבה יתרה הנ”ל כי הם זה לעומת זה כדכתיב “תכלית שנאה שנאתים לאויבים היו לי חקרני ודע לבבי” וגו’ וכפי ערך גודל האהבה לה’ כך ערך גודל השנאה לסטרא אחרא והמיאוס ברע בתכלית כי המיאוס הוא הפך האהבה ממש כמו השנאה.
A Beinoni is someone who is in such control of himself that he never sinned and won’t sin, but has to continue fighting the Yezter Hara the whole time.
See chapter 12 of Tanya:
והבינוני הוא שלעולם אין הרע גובר כל כך לכבוש את העיר קטנ’ להתלבש בגוף להחטיאו דהיינו ששלש’ לבושי נפש הבהמית שהם מחשבה דבור ומעשה שמצד הקליפ’ אין גוברים בו על נפש האלהית להתלבש בגוף במוח ובפה ובשאר רמ”ח אברים להחטיאם ולטמאם ח”ו רק שלשה לבושי נפש האלהית הם לבדם מתלבשים בגוף שהם מחשבה דבור ומעשה של תרי”ג מצות התורה ולא עבר עבירה מימיו ולא יעבור לעולם ולא נקרא עליו שם רשע אפי’ שעה אחת ורגע אחד כל ימיו אך מהות ועצמות נפש האלהית שהן עשר בחינותיה לא להן לבדן המלוכה והממשלה בעיר קטנה כי אם בעתים מזומנים כמו בשעת קריאת שמע ותפלה
Now, this might not be so politically correct, but I hope they let it through: I know Chabad and any kiruv organization tends to sell this idea that a college girl who isn’t shomer shabbos or nagia, but decides to start wearing skirts (or take on any random single halachah) is doing a way bigger mitzvah than someone in Boro Park who is totally frum. I know you guys need to say this stuff for kiruv, but for the love of all things holy don’t actually start believing it!
We don’t say it because it’s a beautiful quote. We say it because it’s the opinion of the Tanya[1] , that being an “Oved Hashem” means fighting with oneself to go beyond what one’s used to.
Now I’m not denying that even Boro Park has it’s Tayvos, and even people in Boro Park aren’t Tzaddikim, and have to do Avoda to avoid sinning, but Boro Park clearly has less Tayvos than a college campus, or else it would be as forbidden to live in Boro Park as it is to attend college. And while even a Frum person in a Frum environment, can fight his Yetzer Hara and be an “Oved Elokim”, personal experience is that when you live in a Frum environment, it’s easy to coast.
But despite all that, and despite the advantage of doing Teshuva, one’s clearly forbidden to sin to become a “Baal Teshuva”, even though one can do Teshuva even after an Echteh VeAshuv[2]. The same way, one is absolutely forbidden to put himself in a Makom Nisayon by going to college or having unfiltered internet, and yet someone who does and controls himself may be an Oved Hashem more than one who’s just conventionally frum. Ultimately Schar VeOnesh is up to Hashem, and Hashem may give a working guy who learns Daf Yomi a way bigger Gan Eiden than to a a retired guy who learns five Blatt a day, simply because the first has to push himself more. Or a Tinok SheNishba who puts on Tefillin may be fighting his Yetzer Hara more by putting on his Tefillin for 5 minutes a day than I do by putting on Rabbeinu Tams.
And it’s kind of the same situation in Crown Heights. At the same time I’ll condemn (among my Lubavitch friends) the absolute Busha that there’s no communal pressure to be Frum in Crown Heights, and this communal enforcement is something that I do respect in the Yeshivish world, I’ll say that someone that actually stays Frum in such an environment does show a certain strength of character and Yiras Shamayim.
[1]. (Chapter 15)
ובבינוני יש ג”כ שתי מדרגות עובד אלהים ואשר לא עבדו ואעפ”כ אינו רשע כי לא עבר מימיו שום עבירה קלה וגם קיים כל המצות שאפשר לו לקיימן ותלמוד תורה כנגד כולם ולא פסיק פומיה מגירסא אלא שאינו עושה שום מלחמה עם היצר לנצחו ע”י אור ה’ המאיר על נפש האלהית שבמוח השליט על הלב כנ”ל מפני שאין יצרו עומד לנגדו כלל לבטלו מתורתו ועבודתו ואין צריך ללחום עמו כלל כגון שהוא מתמיד בלמודו בטבעו מתולדתו על ידי תגבורת המרה שחורה וכן אין לו מלחמה מתאות נשים מפני שהוא מצונן בטבעו וכן בשאר תענוגי עוה”ז הוא מחוסר הרגש הנאה בטבעו ולכן אין צריך להתבונן כל כך בגדולת ה’ להוליד מבינתו רוח דעת ויראת ה’ במוחו להשמר שלא לעבור על מצות ל”ת ואהבת ה’ בלבו לדבקה בו בקיום המצות ות”ת כנגד כולן אלא די לו באהבה מסותרת אשר בלב כללות ישראל שנקראו אוהבי שמו ולכן אינו נקרא עובד כלל כי אהבה זו המסותרת אינה פעולתו ועבודתו כלל אלא היא ירושתנו מאבותינו לכלל ישראל וכמ”ש לקמן. וכן אף מי שאינו מתמיד בלמודו בטבעו רק שהרגיל עצמו ללמוד בהתמדה גדולה ונעשה ההרגל לו טבע שני די לו באהבה מסותרת זו אא”כ רוצה ללמוד יותר מרגילותו ובזה יובן מ”ש בגמרא דעובד אלהים היינו מי ששונה פרקו מאה פעמים ואחד ולא עבדו היינו מי ששונה פרקו מאה פעמים לבד והיינו משום שבימיהם היה הרגילות לשנות כל פרק מאה פעמים כדאיתא התם בגמרא משל משוק של חמרים שנשכרים לעשר פרסי בזוזא ולאחד עשר פרסי בתרי זוזי מפני שהוא יותר מרגילותם. ולכן זאת הפעם המאה ואחת היתרה על הרגילות שהורגל מנעוריו שקולה כנגד כולן ועולה על גביהן ביתר שאת ויתר עז להיות נקרא עובד אלהים מפני שכדי לשנות טבע הרגילות צריך לעורר את האהבה לה’ ע”י שמתבונן בגדולת ה’ במוחו לשלוט על הטבע שבחלל השמאלי המלא דם הנפש הבהמית שמהקליפה שממנה הוא הטבע וזו היא עבודה תמה לבינוני. או לעורר את האהבה המסותרת שבלבו למשול על ידה על הטבע שבחלל השמאלי שזו נקרא ג”כ עבודה להלחם עם הטבע והיצר ע”י שמעורר האהבה המסותרת בלבו משא”כ כשאין לו מלחמה כלל אין אהבה זו מצד עצמה נקראת עבודתו כלל:
Which, if you think about it, parallels the famous Rambam:
וְאַל יְדַמֶּה אָדָם בַּעַל תְּשׁוּבָה שֶׁהוּא מְרֻחָק מִמַּעֲלַת הַצַּדִּיקִים מִפְּנֵי הָעֲוֹנוֹת וְהַחֲטָאוֹת שֶׁעָשָׂה. אֵין הַדָּבָר כֵּן אֶלָּא אָהוּב וְנֶחְמָד הוּא לִפְנֵי הַבּוֹרֵא כְּאִלּוּ לֹא חָטָא מֵעוֹלָם. וְלֹא עוֹד אֶלָּא שֶׁשְּׂכָרוֹ הַרְבֵּה שֶׁהֲרֵי טָעַם טַעַם הַחֵטְא וּפֵרַשׁ מִמֶּנּוּ וְכָבַשׁ יִצְרוֹ. אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים מָקוֹם שֶׁבַּעֲלֵי תְּשׁוּבָה עוֹמְדִין אֵין צַדִּיקִים גְּמוּרִין יְכוֹלִין לַעֲמֹד בּוֹ. כְּלוֹמַר מַעֲלָתָן גְּדוֹלָה מִמַּעֲלַת אֵלּוּ שֶׁלֹּא חָטְאוּ מֵעוֹלָם מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהֵן כּוֹבְשִׁים יִצְרָם יוֹתֵר מֵהֶם:
[2] As it says in Tanya chapter 25:
ואף ש”האומר אחטא ואשוב אין מספיקין כו'”, היינו שאין מחזיקים ידו להיות לו שעת הכושר לעשות תשובה, אבל אם דחק השעה ועשה תשובה אין לך דבר שעומד בפני התשובה
Which follows the Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 4:7):
ואף ש”האומר אחטא ואשוב אין מספיקין כו'”, היינו שאין מחזיקים ידו להיות לו שעת הכושר לעשות תשובה, אבל אם דחק השעה ועשה תשובה אין לך דבר שעומד בפני התשובה
Did you ever learn the sicha inside? A guilty feeling due to [mis]understanding sisrai Torah has nothing to do with it.
Yes I did, and that’s what it says. Look in the footnote there (62*)
והיינו דנוסף על צערו בכלל ממצבו הירוד [שאינו מרגיש האור המקיף שבסוכה (או שפתגם של אדמור האמצאי אינו פועל עליו כו)] – שמצער זה לא ינצל גם ע”י כניססו לבית – הרי המעשה השינה עצמה גורם לו צער היתכן שיכול לישון בסוכה בלי צער
And it’s the same idea in the Pnim.
In short, the idea is that a Lubavitcher Chossid would feel guilty about sleeping in a Sukkah, since sleeping in a Sukkah forces him out of denial – that he doesn’t feel the Makkif of the Sukkah, even after hearing about it from the Mitteler Rebbe. I can’t speak for everyone (and I personally happen to think that not everyone who wants to call himself Chabad can rely on our leniencies, but that’s for another rant), but I, personally, think that I’d feel guilty sleeping in a Sukkah.
So the Rebbe’s point is that guilt feeling is enough to Patur one from sleeping in a Sukka.
Halocho paskens that unless you are mitzta’er and unable to accomplish the act that you are about to do, you have to do it in the sukkah. For example, if you can’t eat the mikpeh (whatever type of food that is) because the rain is ruining it, you are pattur. Similarly, if you can’t sleep in the sukkah because of the weather, mosquitoes, whatever, you are pattur. But you’re not pattur because you CAN eat or sleep and feel guilty about it.
Lav Davka. The Alter Rebbe (Shulchan Aruch 639:8) writes:
במקומות הקרים שיש צער לישן בסוכה מחמת הקור ואין לו כרים וכסתות כראוי אין צריך לישן בסוכה ואפילו יש לו כרים אלא שאי אפשר לו להכין להם מקום בסוכה לכל שבעת ימי החג בענין שיצטרך לטרוח להוציאן מהסוכה בשעת האכילה ולחזור ולהכניסן בעת השינה והיא טרחא יתירה ומצטער בטרחא זו בענין שאם היה לו טרחא כזו לישן בביתו לא היה ישן בביתו אינו צריך לישן בסוכה שכל המצטער בישיבת הסוכה פטור מישיבתה כמו שיתבאר בסי’ תר”מ
So if one’s cold, he has to bring blankets unless it’s too much of a bother, that had the Sukkah been his house, he would have gone inside. So you don’t have to be in such Tzaar that you wouldn’t be able to fulfill the Mitzvah, you just have to be in enough Tzaar that had it been your house, you wouldn’t stay there.
If I’d feel guilty sleeping in my house, I’d find another place to sleep.
I wasn’t aware a dead person can answer people.
See Brachos 18b, where Amorayim went to ask people who passed away questions, and were answered. And it wasn’t even in spiritual things, it was over financial matters!
I keep saying this: there is no concept of arvus with a goy. And, as I pointed out, the Rambam, in whose lashon we are medayek, said “to force”, not “to convince” or “to encourage”. Hashem wants us to force them to keep mitzvos. That’s not shayach nowadays.
The Rambam also says:
מי שאינו רוצה ליתן צדקה או שיתן מעט ממה שראוי לו בית דין כופין אותו ומכין אותן מכת מרדות עד שיתן מה שאמדוהו ליתן, ויורדין לנכסיו בפניו ולוקחין ממנו מה שראוי לו ליתן. וממשכנין על הצדקה ואפילו בערבי שבתות.
Should we apply the same Diyuk here? If a Beis Din can’t force someone to give Tzedaka, they shouldn’t try convincing them, because it says “Kofin” and not “encourage” or “convince”?
username, If I know I don’t eat lesheim Shamayim and I am a big megusham when it comes to food, would I be justified not to eat in the sukkah because I feel guilty eating there?
If you really feel guilty, and you know that eating not Lesheim Shamayim in a Sukkah is really bad, I could see a Sevara to say that.
Would I mechadesh such a minhag on my own? No. Not at all.
But then, if not for the existing Minhag, I (and most likely the Rebbe) would say to sleep in a Sukkah also.
look at Shulchan Aruch Harav and tell me there is no mitzvah to sleep in the sukkah IF YOU INTEND TO SLEEP.
The Mitzvah is to live there like you do at home. Since you sleep, eat and drink at home, you have to sleep, eat and drink in the Sukkah.
By the way, another example of such roundabout logic is the famous Minchas Elazar which allows clapping on Shabbos:
You’re not allowed to clap or dance on Shabbos, except for a Simcha Shel Mitzvah. So since a Tzaddik really feels the holiness of Shabbos, for him clapping and dancing becomes a Simcha shel Mitzvah, allowing him to clap on Shabbos.
So if one really feels the holiness of Shabbos, he’s feeling a Simcha Shel Mitzvah, allowing him to be lenient in a practical Halacha of Shabbos.
Feeling guilty that you can fall asleep, which is a mitzvah, can be called tzaar and therefore patter you from sleeping? Doesn’t make sense.
Sorry, I don’t get your issue. Is it that why should one feel guilty about doing a Mitzvah? Because it is a very holy place, and you feel bad sleeping (which comes along with other things) in a holy place. So if my house was a Shul, I wouldn’t sleep there either.
But it’s a Mitzvah?
No. There’s no Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah. It’s to live in a Sukkah like we do at home. So because we sleep at home, we have to sleep in a Sukkah. But there’s no inherent Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah. And the same goes for drinking, or eating (except for the first night). The Mitzvah is to live there like you do at home. Since you eat and drink at home, you have to eat and drink in the Sukkah.
But all Seforim say to sleep in a Sukkah. The Mishna, Gemara, Rishonim, Shulchan Aruch?
Yes, because there’s a Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah like you sleep at home. And for hundreds of years, there were two classes of people:
1. People who really grasped the holiness of a Sukkah – and these were Tzaddikim who’s sleep was a different sleep (for example, Shivchei Ari says how the Arizal would learn deep Sisrei Torah while he slept), so for them there was no problem sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOraisa to sleep in a Sukkah.
2. The regular folk, who didn’t know the Sisrei Torah behind the Sukkah. So they obviously didn’t feel bad about sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOriasa to sleep in the Sukkah.
It’s just that due to Yeridas Hadoros on one hand, and the spread of Chassidus on the other (so that even relatively simple people have some understanding of what holiness a Sukkah has), that there’s this guilty feeling.
But yes, if you don’t have any guilty feeling, you absolutely are obligated to sleep in a Sukkah.