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N0m: Limud Torah is a huge mitzvah in its own right. The Mitzvah is not one iota less if the person is an extremely slow learner and takes 10 times as long to understand Torah or Gemora than an average person. Him learning 10 times as long and still end up understanding “only” half as much Torah as the next guy who aced the sugya in 20% as much time spent in Limud Torah, the guy who knows half as much gets 5 times the schar for Limud Torah as the other guy. And if the Yeshiva can only have one of the two, they’d be much better off holding unto the slower learner.
Real Learners do not necessarily need to learn or know a lot. A learner who spends 10 hours a day cracking his head to try to understand less than half an Amud, and after the 10 hours has only a very basic idea of what he learnt, and he does this every day of the week, year after year, is a much better Yeshivab or Kollel student than the guy sitting next to him who spends two hours a day learning five new blatts with all the meforshim, and he successfully knows it inside and out and is capable of acing any test with flying colors, but spends the next eight hours of his days battling about sports, politics and whatever else.
Yabia isn’t Sefardic.
Everyone must get a Rov.
“If yeshivas were helping in some way, what was the basis for that?”
Pekuach Nefesh. A Yid is prohibited from serving in a gentile army if doing so risks his life. He’s required take whatever possible steps (refusing to serve, draft fishing, moving to Canada, fake exemption, etc) to avoid putting himself in a sakanas nefoshos situation, such as enlisting in the army 0
Young male African-Americans engage in more risky behavior than young male Caucasian Americans. And their death rate is higher. There are statistics to demonstrate that.
Young gentile males engage in risky behavior far more so than young Jewish males. And their death rate is higher. There are no statistics demonstrating this is true or false. But common sense, living in the real world and paying attention to what’s going on will make this clear to any clear eyed, unbiased, observer. Even if he can’t prove it with official surveys and stats.
In Israel the young non-Chareidim face a higher death rate in the armed services, something the Chareidim serve in far lesser numbers.
For these things that no statistics exist for sub-population groups we can argue both sides back and forth with no clear proof who is correct. You might argue there’s no statistical proof that the Amish suffer any less motor vehicle deaths than the national (or state) statistics for the population at large. Or that conservative religious Muslims suffer no less alcohol poisoning than the general statistics for the population at large.
What’s so hard to understand about Footsteps? Anything they, their board members or their supporters say, state or claim starts off with a presumption of falsehood. If he told you it is raining in Bnei Brak, you should not believe him until you verified it. Even if he was then in Bnei Brak.
Would you accept alleged statistics regarding Jewish behaviors from a “board member” of Hezbollah?
Spare us the falsehoods from your Footsteps board members. The OTD claims presented have no basis in reality.
As far a the general age gap issue, I’m not sure you can be effective in convincing Litvish boys to marry younger or convince them to marry older girls (than they currently do) unless and until the Yeshivish oilem adopts the Chasidish type Shidduch process.
In Eretz Yisroel the Litvish Shidduch process is closer to the Chasidish system than it is to the American Litvish system.
Who are we kidding? We both know that the African-American population has a significantly higher youth death rate as a result of violence, drugs and certain very unhealthy behaviors. That skewers the national statistics, whereas if you excluded such minority populations the general Caucasian rates are significantly lower. And on top of that factor, it is quite clear and obvious to any observer that the Orthodox Jewish (and general Jewish) communities have a significantly lower youth violent death rate than the general gentile population (even compared only to Caucasians) as well as a significantly lower youth death rate from drug overdosage and, say, HIV/STD for example, than the general gentile population.
There’s no reason to believe that male Orthodox Jews suffer greater disability rates or greater OTD rates than female Orthodox Jews. Nor have you or anyone else provided any evidence, other than innuendo and anonymous claims, that there’s any reason to think there’s any difference, one way or the other, between the genders.
And Footsteps is an antisemitic, religious-hating, hate group that has a notoriety for lying about figures, statistics and anything relating to Orthodox Jews. The fact that THEY are your source, demonstrates that you have an agenda other than the truth.
105/100 isn’t 5%. According to my math professor that is closer to 2%.
The OTD, disability and early death factors are vastly overstated. *Especially* in reference to the Orthodox Jewish population, regarding the latter two. The death factor, in great deal, results from drug overdosage, violence and other negative behaviors prevalent among certain minority groups that skewer the statistics.
And the OTD factor isn’t especially overrepresented by either gender.
“given the 5% birth rate gender disparity”
5% birth rate gender disparity? Where did that figure come from? It’s much less and closer to parity. It is about 51% boys, 49% girls.
CS: I’m partisan to Faltche Fish.
You seem to have a case of double-postitis
We used to have a poster that would reply to all threads “Ask your local Orthodox Rabbi”.
Are Roster: Your statistics regarding boys allegedly having a statistically significantly higher death rate at birth, or disability rate is factually inaccurate, medically. And your allegation that boys have a higher OTD rate is inaccurate, religiously, considering how you are determining OTD.
You shouldn’t shave ever.
As far as Sefira, those following the Arizal hold all 49 days.
CS: Gefilte Fish, of course.
CAD: Yabiabis absolutely correct. I’m sorry for not asking. (I actually thought of asking but wasn’t sure if it it would make you uncomfortable. What is causing you unhappiness?
Jackk: Why are you downplaying a severe prohibition that carries the death penalty. Chayiv Misa means exactly that. It is nothing to be trifled with. It isn’t just a theory; it carries capital punishment as a real legal matter that the courts can and do enforce.
Are we discussing three year olds?
“The Cherem deRabbenu Gershom conversation is a bit far fetched too. There are much simpler answers to the crisis, that would require a bit of maturity instead of a complete transformation of the marital and familial structure of our society.”
Yayin: Again, to reiterate, even with the relaxation of the Cherem (and only with the directives of Gedolei Yisroel, of course), it would only be relevant for a very small number of marriage. 95+% of marriages will continue to be monogamous. Only a tiny low single digits percentage of marriages being polygynous will be sufficient to alleviate the disparity in numbers between males and females in the Shidduch parsha.
Additionally, only a small number of men will be capable (financially, emotionally, etc) of supporting multiple wives and only a small number of women will be willing to be part of a polygynous family. So it will be self-correcting and only affect a few.
“If we can’t convince litvishe girls to be willing to date wonderful chassidish boys, or various other great profiles that they refuse to consider, do you really think they’d be willing to date as a second wife?”
You’re hitting upon another excellent idea. Do you not think it can be feasible to successfully be meshadech Chasidishe boys with Litvishe girls if enough effort it put into it and, perhaps, an origanized effort my Klal Yisroel is made to encourage — similar to how NASI and others have been encouraging close-in-age Shidduchim?
By the way, most self-identifying “Litvish” people come from Chasidish/Heimish family backgrounds. There are very few true Litvaks.
“The Cherem deRabbenu Gershom conversation is a bit far fetched too. There are much simpler answers to the crisis, that would require a bit of maturity instead of a complete transformation of the marital and familial structure of our society.”
Yayin: Again, to reiterate, even with the relaxation of the Cherem (and only with the directives of Gedolei Yisroel, of course), it would only be relevant for a very small number of marriage. 95+% of marriages will continue to be monogamous. Only a tiny low single digits percentage of marriages being polygynous will be sufficient to alleviate the disparity in numbers between males and females in the Shidduch parsha.
Additionally, only a small number of men will be capable (financially, emotionally, etc) of supporting multiple wives and only a small number of women will be willing to be part of a polygynous family. So it will be self-correcting and only affect a few.
“If we can’t convince litvishe girls to be willing to date wonderful chassidish boys, or various other great profiles that they refuse to consider, do you really think they’d be willing to date as a second wife?”
You’re hitting upon another excellent idea. Do you not think it can be feasible to successfully be meshadech Chasidishe boys with Litvishe girls if enough effort it put into it and, perhaps, an origanized effort my Klal Yisroel is made to encourage — similar to how NASI and others have been encouraging close-in-age Shidduchim?
By the way, most self-identifying “Litvish” people come from Chasidish/Heimish family backgrounds. There are very few true Litvaks.
“These mindless rants about a so-called “shidduch crisis” is only increasing the stress levels and pressure on young men and women already struggling with multiple challenges as they look for their beschert.”
Ghadorah: If there’s no Shidduch Crisis, as you’re claiming, then what exactly about are single men and women “already struggling with multiple challenges as they look for their beschert”??
קידושין ז, א
אמר ריש לקיש: טב למיתב טן דו מלמיתב ארמלוKesubos 75a
אִיהִי בְּכׇל דְּהוּ נִיחָא לַהּ כִּדְרֵישׁ לָקִישׁ דְּאָמַר רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ טָב לְמֵיתַב טַן דּוּ מִלְּמֵיתַב אַרְמְלוּ אַבָּיֵי אָמַר דְּשׁוּמְשְׁמָנָא גַּבְרָא כּוּרְסְיַהּ בֵּי חָרָאתָא רָמֵי לַהּרַב פָּפָּא אָמַר דְּנַפָּסָא גַּבְרָא תִּיקְרְיֵיהּ בְּסִיפֵּי בָבָא וְתֵיתִיב רַב אָשֵׁי אָמַר דְּקַלָּסָא גַּבְרָא לָא בָּעֲיָא טְלָפְחֵי לְקִידְרָא
Kesubos 86a
יוֹתֵר מִמַּה שֶּׁהָאִישׁ רוֹצֶה לִישָּׂא אִשָּׁה רוֹצָה לְהִנָּשֵׂאubiq: I added a citation to my comment that you quoted a few minutes after posting it. You may have submitted your response prior to seeing my citation. The Darchei Moshe and Rema demonstrate Rabbeinu Gershom provided exceptions to the Cherem, such as if the wife couldn’t have children. This effectively establishes that prior to R”G’s Cherem no such exceptions were necessary for polygyny.
Also, the living examples for Teimanim, Moroccans, etc. who practice it are of regular Yidden.
As far as Tanach or Chazal, they didn’t always tell us everyone’s full marital statuses, etc. In other words, if Tanach or Chazal didn’t cite a second wife for Ploni, that isn’t necessarily an indication that Ploni didn’t have a second (or third) wife.
And in any event, the examples of Ashkenazim up to R”G’s time and the examples of non-Ashkenazim up to modern times, itself demonstrates that people without special status (other than, perhaps, being relatively wealthy, etc.) had more than one wife.
ubiq: Until Rabbeinu Gershom, the people married to more than one wife were regular Yidden, not any special circumstance such as a king or people who necessarily couldn’t have children. In fact, R”G made provisions when establishing his Cherem to provide exceptions in special situations such as inability to have children. [i.e. See Darchei Moshe (Even HaEzer 1), Rema (Even HaEzer 1:10)] Beforehand, no special situation was required.
With the Teimanim, Morrocans, Sephardim and non-Ashkenazim who practice polygny right into the contemporary modern era, it is also regular Yidden who practice it.
In any event, if the Ashkenazic Gedolim reestablish it in present-day times for Ashkenazim (non-Ashkenazim already have the natural halachic right to practice it), they could institute it with guidelines on who is or isn’t authorized to do so. Such as requiring the husband to have the financial wherewithal to support multiple wives and/or other criteria limiting it (i.e. the acceptance of his current wife/wives.)
“Why would it be more strict by a goy?”
The same reason a goy is chayiv misa for theft.
“A Ben Noach who performs an abortion would be chayav misa whether it is murder or not, because misa applies to all Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach. It’s also agreed, I believe, that where abortion is prohibited, only the person performing the abortion would be chayav. If the mother requested it but didn’t perform it, she would be chayav only for lifnei iver.”
Which means if it is a self-abortion, such as the over the counter or prescription medication she takes, the mother would be chayiv misa.
Welcome Back, Ctrl Alt Del! It’s been ages…
CA: I already have everyone’s info.
Kuvult, that’s exactly what I said in the last paragraph of my comment right above yours. Even with polygyny being a viable option, simple mathematics alone dictate that it’s only an option for a small minority of marriages. That’s how it always was when Yidden had (or have) more than one wife.
If the age gap is truly the issue and it is causing a disparity in there being more girls than boys looking for Shidduchim, as a number of Rabbonim and askonim are saying, then indeed repealing Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom’s prohibition of polygyny, something the Gedolim have a right to do (in fact R”G himself set an expiration date), would help the Shidduch Crisis.
Obviously, even when permitted, polygyny would be for a small minority of marriages and not for most.
Haifagirl used to be the CR’s official English Nazi.
Where have I even mentioned antiquity, sir? Not even one word about that, yet. My entire comments were regarding contemporary and modern.
But since you mention it, should Yaakov Avinu not married Rochel Imanu? Or skipped on Leah Imanu?
Jews live in other places as well. Such as in South Africa, where even the President of the country until about 6 years ago, had more than one wife. And in Morocco Jews still live and some Moroccan Yidden have more than one. Iran as well. Jews lived in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq until about 15 years ago, which are additional examples where it is legal under secular law.
Even in the United States it is legal if you don’t apply for secular marriage license and stick only to Kedushin and Chupa. The Mormon Fundamentalist do it openly. The Utah Attorney General tried to challenge it in court in the 1950s, but the courts ruled they couldn’t interfere with religious marriages if all the parties were legal adults and no minors were involved. Many African immigrants living in New York immigrated in the last 20 years to the US with multiple wives.
GHadora: Sefardim, Teimanim and other non-Ashkenazim were never subject to Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom. And still are not today. Indeed, even up to modern times you can find non-Ashkenazi frum Yidden who have more than one wife, simultaneously. There’s nothing inherently wrong with it. And it is the heilige minhag these Yidden have always practiced, and some still do.
According to Halacha, a woman (nochri) who aborts her baby is Chayiv Misa.
It cooled off a lot sooner than a hundred years.
Syag, there’s no hate involved in mentioning that the Zionist Entity is a Shmad State. It is simply stating the facts, regardless if the specific example was in error.
Yochi:
If you are correct then there should be no Shidduch Crisis among frum boys, only by frum girls. Yet, there are a relatively large pool of older single boy. All of them should have been able to get married long ago, due to the tons of older single girls.
By the way, the idea of dropping Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is a viable option if the Gedolei Rabbonim agree it is a good idea.
AJ: I know this person the same way you know your child. It absolutely was due to his blood pressure. There were no other issues.
akuperma: The Rebbe created Kiryas Yoel to be away from town.
You cannot properly express pronunciations in written words only.
AJ: I know it first hand from him. It is absolutely 100% true and accurate. He raised his blood pressure and he was deemed ineligible to serve as a result of “poor health” based on his blood pressure.
Perhaps some draft offices were tougher. But the one he went to dismissed him.
“The view that we need to worry about the secular law infringing on halacha”
Halacha says you can kill an intruder who comes in your home, on the spot without warning (unless it is your father.)
Do you therefore insist secular law in all 50 states permit killing such a person, in order – as you said – “that we need to worry about the secular law infringing on halacha”?
I personally know a frum person who seriously raised his blood pressure via artificial means before reporting to the draft office. The doctor there disqualified him from serving due to his blood pressure being a severe health risk.
Dr. Norman Lamm called Bnei Torah “cave-men”.
Do any mainstream Mesivtas today still teach Shakespeare?
Rabbi Breitowitz clearly said that the ONLY exception permitting abortion is if the mother’s life is in danger. Any consideration other than the mother’s life, he said, does not permit abortion for either Jews or gentiles.
CS: The most important question here is we need your assessment as to whether the OP is a troll?
The lady doth protest too much.
Yekeshe? Where do they exist nowadays?