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With the poor grammar I cannot determine if the OP is complaining that there’s too much Peyos or too little Peyos.
But, in either event, look at the Teimanim if you want to know what the traditionally correct approach to Jews donning Peyos is.
HaLeiVi: I apologize for my last comment addressed to you in the other thread. I didn’t think you’d be too upset, since I deliberately cloaked (or so I thought) my reference to what only you/mishpacha would understand. I felt your prior comment to me, as well as a number of previous comments you addressed to me, were designed to annoy — for reasons I understand where you’re coming from, though I know your premise to be incorrect. As much as I wish to communicate to you why that is so, this medium won’t allow that. In any event, I shouldn’t have referenced what you’ve objected to and for that I’m sorry.
AAQ: The quotes above from Rav Schwab zt’l are as late as from the ’80’s and ’90’s.
Rabbi J.B. Soloveichik in his Five Addresses clearly states that “separatist Orthodoxy” (Chareidi) would disappear and only MO will survive. “Tourist attractions” he says Chareidim would end up being. Clearly, he was 100% wrong. And it was that which he said justified “Modern Orthodoxy” – survival, nothing else. If these words seem a bit difficult to understand today, you must appreciate them within the context of the prevailing secular social attitude during the time they were said, the early 1960’s. Many people were dazzled by the “new social and economic order” and even frightened about the future of Torah in America. The typical alter litvishe water carrier didn’t seem to fit in to the picture of what they imagined to be the technologically fueled, fast-paced, high-educated America. Once a Rebbi in Yeshiva University, a super chareidi of the Brisker school, who did not even speak English fluently, who was vehemently opposed to Modern Orthodoxy, was asked why he left MTJ (Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L’s Yeshiva) to accept a job in YU. “[Rabbi Soloveichik] convinced me that the future of Torah in America depends on YU”, he said in Yiddish, shaking his head in disbelief at his own decision. This was in the mid 1980’s.
Rav Shimon Schwab (Selected Essays pp. 90-91):
“And now we address ourselves to our chaveirim bedeah, our achim bemitzvos of the Rabbinic Council of America. Ad masai? How long do you want to remain a branch, without becoming part of the tree? . . . We say to our achim b’mitzvos, “have Rachmonus with yourselves, and lemaan Hashem, part company with those who have given obscene semichah to to’evah clergymen” . . . Have rachmonus with yourselves, and break off your professional relationship with those who, for instance, consider Yishu HaNotzri merely a failed moshiach . . .We implore you . . . to part company with those gravediggers of Torah. I know it is a painful subject but it is unavoidable . . . We call on you to join us, the true modern Orthodoxy [Rav Schwab is referring to previous statements of his that MO is today outdated and “anything but modern”], which is a generation of sincere mevakshei Hashem”.
Rav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (Vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav) states that the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative. That is, change Judaism into something that more people will be willing to accept.
Rav Shimon Schwab (Mitteilungen, Bulletin of Khal Adas Yeshurun April/May 1989) says:
“Sometimes the Modern Orthodox halachic foolishness which is flirting with the anti-Torah establishment, may border on heresy. This is all part and parcel of the spiritual confusion of the dark ages in which we happen to live.
Rav Shimon Schwab (Selected Essays pp.160-162) says:
“However, in addition to the legitimate shitos we have discussed, there is yet another, more modern version in vogue called “Torah Umaada”. Apparently this is identical with Torah Im Derech Eretz, especially since both claim a belief in the priority of Torah over maada. Both seems exactly alike, but like two left gloves which cannot be worn together, they don’t fit! . . .
“Rav Hirsch ZT’L has inscribed two emblems on his banner. One is Torah Im Derech Eretz and the other is the so-called “Austritt”, which means severance, or total and non-recognition of any type of institutionalized heresy, “minus” or apikursus. This is also a resolution not to contribute, participate in, or support any cause which accords validity to the disbelief in Hashem or to the denial of the authenticity of Torah shebiksav or Torah shebaal peh. In other words, “Austritt” states that the Torah is our sovereign ruler, and it makes us independent of all those who deny its Divine origin…
“To summarize, Torah im derech eretz without Austritt is considered treif l’chol hadeios! Even if you call it Torah Umaada.”
Rav Shimon Schwab (ibid p. 89):
“Let me single out two examples where silence is not permitted . . . “The first item is Modern Orthodoxy . . . most of it has become stale, stagnant, and fossilized, and we could not call it modern anymore. “In the meantime, the contemporary generation has advanced and risen to higher standards, Boruch Hashem. We are witnessing the rise of a new type of American Orthodoxy. This is the Yeshiva and Bais Yaakov generation . . . This is the new generation of Bnei Torah and baalei batim who do not intend to stand still and remain satisfied with a tiny yarlmuka or a teaspoonful of Jewish knowledge…They are marching on! And so we are zocheh, Baruch Hashem, to prestigious yeshivos gedolos in America and American-born Roshei Yeshiva , rabbanim, and poskim. “Today, our youth in America is the real Modern Orthodox, if you must use this expression, and they are marching forward. Whether they belong to chassidishe, yeshivishe, or Torah im derech eretz variety, they are marching forward, step by step, to a more wakeful form of avodas hashem. . . Their greatest pride and joy and nachas consists of children who are talmidei chachamim, bnei torah and bnos Torah.”
Rav Shimon Schwab (ibid p. 151):
“Shameful are the ways of the glorified am haaretz who . . . condones the aberrations which Hirsch condemned, such as religious nationalism, Orthodox-Reform collaboration and neutral Judaism. Foolish are those who sympathize with the “Department Store Academy”, where Brisk and Slobodka are offered on the first floor and Graetz and Dubnow on the second. When such a person takes Rav Hirsch’s name in vain, wielding Torah im derech eretz like a weapon against recognized Torah schools, he becomes somewhat ridiculous! “What a travesty! Rav Hirsch, who was the warrior without compromise against those who hated the Torah, has to let his memory be invoked today against those who love the Torah. . .
Yenta.
skripka:
1. Regardless of what family size is or isn’t representative of, what is your explanation for the huge differences in family sizes between Chareidi and MO families?
And it is certainly representative of materialism; the reason some “choose” a smaller family size, against Hashem’s decree to be fruitful and multiply, is to live a more comfortable life by reducing expenses incurred by having more children.
2. The point about getting drunk was simply a response to another poster’s canard that getting drunk on Shabbos was more prevalent among the more religious. The entire crisis of this vice famously began in the more modern communities.
That being said, I’m very happy to read your report that listening to, respecting and and adhering to the instructions of one’s Rabbi is becoming more normative in the MO communities. Unfortunately this was less the case in the past. May they continue moving in that direction. But what you’re certainly incorrect about is the canard that this is becoming less the case in Chareidi circles. In fact, this remains very much the practice today as it has been traditionally.
3. The only thing the higher tuition rates in MO schools versus Chareidi Yeshivos represents, is increased quantity and quality of secular studies in MO schools. The quantity and quality of Limudei Kodesh has always been, and remains, indisputably on a much higher quality and level in Chareidi Yeshivos; and the resulting quality of Torah knowledge between their students clearly demonstrates this among elementary and high school graduates.
4 and 5. I’ve been down all those avenues. The fact remains that MO communities have proportionally many more fancy homes than found in Flatbush. The material standards of living is higher in MO communities than in Flatbush. That said, I certainly agree with the notion that standards of living in frum communities, in general, have gone way way up over the last 30 years.
Let Eli Beer stick to first aid, which he knows, rather than opine on subjects outside his expertise.
Dofi: You can’t get any more dopee than taking a freak incident, something that never previously occurred in the 80+ year history of the Chareidi community in Lakewood (or anywhere, for that matter), and pretending it is some kind of example of things that happen every now and then, when in your dishonest you know good and well this is a virtually unprecedented non-example of anything.
Of course you conveniently forget examples that don’t fit your false agenda, such as the story all over the news about ten years ago of the Modern Orthodox husband in Staten Island that murdered his wife after she advised him she wanted a divorce.
Regarding suicide, I can’t argue with you that suicides have never occurred in the Modern Orthodox community. They must be a special class that’s exempt from such stuff. I’m sure a Lexis-Nexis search will turn up nothing.
skripka:
1. Don’t avoid the question; the question has nothing to do with the other questions and discussions, but pray tell why is the norm in the MO world to have about two children whereas the norm in the Chareidi world is to have about eight children (and oftentimes more)?
2. Kiddish Clubs have famously existed in MO Shuls for decades; that’s where they originated. There’s no doubt that getting drunk on Shabbos is far more common by the MO than any other frum communities.
3. The claim was advanced by DaMoshe that “Tuition there, if you make 150k, is capped at 15%. If you make less than that, they assume you can’t even pay 15%”, regarding MO schools and a family with 8 children earning 60k/year. Do you believe the MO schools will accept all these 8 children for less than $9,000 per year (60k*.15), or less than $1,125 per child, per year? You’re being dishonest if you claim you believe that MO schools will accept that little tuition.
4. Flatbush has very very few mansions, certainly as a percentage of frum homes. Even Boro Park, which has relatively more than Flatbush, is also still a small minority of frum homes. On the other hand, in most of the major MO communities in America, having large fancy homes is the norm — not the exception, like in Chareidi Brooklyn.
And you’re also very incorrect about store pricing. Boro Park and Flatbush have the lowest pricing for frum products (food, clothing, seforim, books, Shabbos/Yom Tov materials, etc. than in any other frum community. Indeed, frum people come from all over the country to shop in Brooklyn due to the far better pricing than they have available locally.
I’ll address to the other points in a future commitment, but DaMoshe, how many Jewish kids in Teaneck would even be bothered if a Jewish owned book shop in Teaneck was selling adult entertainment (vhamaivin yovin) material to the Jewish community?
Not too many would be bothered. And certainly not bothered enough to shut them down.
And there’s the difference.
Lernt: The Zionists know as well as anyone else that a volunteer army, like the US Army, is much better than a forcibly/unwanted drafted enlistees. But the Zionists built their army to first, and foremost, be a “melting pot” to turn all recruits into Zionist ideology subscribers, including secularization more than anything else.
If they don’t forcibly draft, many non-Zionists will remain non-Zionists. And nothing can be worse than that, from the Zionist government’s perspective.
Why does anyone need to know? There’s no need to know this story. It’s better for everyone to not know or talk about.
“EXCTL, as a lawyer”
Ex-lawyer.
(FTFY)
Apologies to CTL (the beginning of summer is slow.)
“If you’re making 60k, then no, you’re not paying the majority of your income towards tuition.”
DaMoshe: Do you really believe that Kushner will reduce their $21,400 per child, per year, tuition cost to under $3,750 per child, per year, for a family earning $60k with eight children in school?
DaMoshe: Chareidi Yeshivos, despite having a significantly lower tuition than MO schools (which are more often than not co-ed), provide a far far superior Limudei Kodesh Torah education than any MO school. Everyone sees and knows this very clearly and unambiguously. The extra money put into MO schools goes towards secular studies.
And, still, 50% of the MO students end up OTD; a statistic coming directly from eminent MO Rabbi Steven Pruzansky of Teaneck. In the Chareidi world, the OTD rate is in the 1% ballpark.
It is clear who is doing things right — and who is doing things wrong.
Reb Shraga Feivel (who preferred to be called as “Mr. Mendelovitz”) held the Satmar Rebbe in a very high degree, and always considered him to be of the foremost Gedolei HaDor.
There’s very good reason why (and how) the Orthodox demographics in America went from 70% MO in the 1960s to 20% MO today.
skripka: The tuition point is addressing a separate issue.
The entire lifestyle, not just the homes, of MO Jews (not heimish yidden) is based on materialism. You can see the open differences between, say, Brooklyn/State Island Yidden and Teaneck/Five Towns Jews.
Why do you think MO Jews, generally, have such small family sizes whereas traditional Orthodox Yidden, typically, have large family sizes?
DaMoshe: Yes, it is well known that MO schools don’t negotiate significantly lower tuition rates whereas traditional Yeshivos do.
How many times have you missed a “Kiddush Club” in MO shuls? Not too often. Then they come home shikur. This issue is extremely rare in Yeshivish/Chasidish minyanim.
If you have 8 kids in MO school (in the imaginary world where an MO family has 8 children) and your income is $60k/year, you’ll be paying most of your income to the MO school, if you want a chance of keeping the 8 in MO schools.
lakewhut: It is true that the SY families in Flatbush often have fancy houses, but by the Ashkenazic Yeshivish families (Flatbush, Kensington, Bensonhurst, Boro Park, etc.) that is infrequent.
“Only” $17,000 per child, per year, tuition at the lowest cost MO school, if you’re lucky enough to live close to it?
Wow, that’s real cheap!
No wonder MO families can’t afford to have more than 2.1 children (and a dog), on average; and work so hard against G-d ‘s ideas on being fruitful and multiplying in order to keep up with the ever decreasing American (and Western) birth rate.
lakewh: There’s no doubt that materialism and and pursuit of worldly pleasures is far greater in MO communities than in any other Orthodox community. Even if no one is immune, unfortunately.
The vast majority of frum homes in Brooklyn are nothing fancy, at all.
I see you didn’t put the costs in numeric order, and my quick reading of it missed a “lower” priced school at “only” $13.5k per year, per child. Even that is astronomical, especially for a family with six, seven, eight or more children. Which is exactly why you don’t find MO families with so much children, as you would in traditional Orthodox families.
It is well known that MO schools don’t negotiate lower tuition prices by much, even if the family cannot afford the MO schools lowest offer. Unlike Chareidi schools where many parents can be paying $4k/year per child, some even paying less than that and some parents even paying almost nothing.
skripka: What on earth are you talking about? The sheer materialism and pursuit of worldly pleasures in Teaneck, Five Towns and other Modern communities is unparalleled anywhere else in other frum communities. In New York you can easily find poor Jews; not much in Teaneck Five Towns and other Modern communities. The MO schools won’t even accept children unless the parents agree to pay over $30,000 per child. In Chareidi communities the Yeshivas will accept children for free, if necessary. And even those that pay, pay much more reasonably. And the homes in the Modern communities are far far more fancy show and tell than what you’ll find in Chareidi, Litvish or Chasidish, communities.
The IDF doesn’t want Chareidim and Chareidim don’t want the IDF. It is a mutually beneficial non-relationship.
The only agitators demanding change are the antisemites (some of whom even wear a kippa) who hate Chareidim and want to de-Chareidicize them by forcing them into the army melting pot to secularize them; much like 50% of the daati leumis who join the IDF by time they are discharged are no longer religious.
I once heard a few MO guys in YU “learning” with a discussion of what is a bigger miracle, Yom Hatzshmutz or Purim.
The idea that Chareidim are willing to go, en masse, to prison rather than the IDF isn’t just an empty threat; it is the reality.
The Zionists need to choose between quadrupling their prison population or the status quo.
No one should be sleeping on a pillow or soft mattress while Israel is at war. A wooden bed is the most anyone should use.
What does hospice entail?
Regarding the financial issues, why would avoiding extraneous expenses be problematic in any way?
aIY: I did not say that *all* of the members of the classes I cited are exempt; but certainly some members are exempt for being a member of the named class.
And if I erroneously included a class, the point still remains regarding the others.
DaMoshe: Where did your Modern Orthodoxy alleged mesorah come from? Moses Mendelsohn?
Simcha: Every country, including Israel, exempts multiple classes of people in society. Including, but not limited to, judges, elected politicians, legislators (MKs), university students/educators, certain entertainers, journalists, conscience objectors, Arab Israeli citizens, etc.
Those who learn Torah are more qualified for an exemption than any and all of the above.
Especially as we all agree that the army is not short personnel, as they are demonstrating today in the current war they are not suffering losses due to a lack of soldiers. It’s well known that the IDF has long had too many people, not too few.
Chaim: How will you calculate the value for Medicaid?
uno: They can manage well calling up the reservists as needed, including a second tour if necessary. As such, given that need it’s fulfilled successfully in that manner, they do not need additional personnel. The IDF are well staffed.
And even the necessity of recalling reservists in this manner is only necessary in times of a major war such as this. Even that much wasn’t necessary for many decades until Oct. 7.
DaMoshe: I know nothing about the Chasidus you’re describing or whether any of your claims are accurate or not.
But I do know that Modern Orthodoxy has no mesorah and MO started many new things. Including many things against the Torah. So how is it that not only have you no complaints against MO, but you actually self-identify as one?
The problem with immigration began in 1965 with the new immigration law.
Chaim: How do you think participants in government assistance programs should be assessed regarding income, for a program such as the one described here?
Dorah: There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Justice being very close friends with someone who is a “passionate advocate for many of the policy issues coming before the court”.
The IDF does not need additional soldiers. They aren’t short personnel.
The IDF is long notorious for znus.
DaMoshe: Are saying that Rabbi Bender sins at times?
If a family with seven children in school is earning a combined $90,000, the tuition for the seven children will be capped at $18,000?
Wolf: You should have a Refuah Shelamo Bmheiro.
DaMoshe: The State of Israel doesn’t believe in Hashem. Israel is an atheist state. The state started with communists. Israel is officially Mechallel Shabbos with public transportation, entertainment and much worse. The army has a long reputation of znus. Israel officially supports the eating of treif. Even their leader is an atheist treif fressing mechallel Shabbos.
Japan surrendered unconditionally.
America letting the Emperor retain his title while stripping him of all power, was out of America’s good will; it was not required under the terms of Japan’s unconditional surrender.
The current peace plan that Biden announced originated from Netanyahu, not from Washington.
Israel always to a greater or lesser extent licks up to Washington’s demands since if America dropped Israel as an ally Israel is up the creek.