ujm

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  • in reply to: The Fourth Reich of “Israel” #2482532
    ujm
    Participant
    in reply to: Double Tap boat strike #2482416
    ujm
    Participant

    Taking out a small boat is harder than taking out a big boat.

    in reply to: Declare Neturei Karta to be Non-Jewish Rodfim and Enemies of the Jews #2482415
    ujm
    Participant

    Yankel: I’m not aware of that being the case. On what basis do you assert that?

    It appears unlikely as just ten years ago Rav Malkiel Kotler, Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel, Rav Ahron Schter and other Litvish Gedolim together with both Satmar Rebbes and other Chasidishe Gedolim together joined at a public protest against the State of Israel in Manhattan when they were trying, again, to forcibly draft Bnei Torah.

    in reply to: Are there any limits actually enforced by the moderators? #2482407
    ujm
    Participant

    Yankel: Katner’s defense of Nazi mass murderers AFTER the war in the Nuremberg Trials is quite well known and a matter of the historical record. He was even condemned for it in Israeli courts (the Judge Levy trial).

    I definitely recognize you are not defending Kastner.

    But aside from the train, read read about the Vrba-Wetzler Report. Kastner knew IN ADVANCE what Eichmann and the Nazis were planning to do to the Hungarian Jews, deport them to Aushwitz and gas them to death, and he yet refused to publicly disclose that information to the Hungarian Jews so that they would otherwise refuse to voluntarily go on the trains to Aushwitz.

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2482403
    ujm
    Participant

    mdd: Get over it. In the last one hundred years there might have been only ten “Misngdim”; they virtually do not exist and haven’t for over a century.

    The Chazon Ish most absolutely was not a misnaged; he was certainly a full Litvak and not Sephardic, not Chasidic and not Teimani. Of course he had different shittos than Sephardim, Chasidim, and Teimanim. But in no way, shape or form was he ever “against” Sephardim, Chasidim, or Teimanim.

    Despite any fantasies you might have.

    in reply to: Proposed Solution to the Arab-Zionist Conflict: Non-Denominational State #2482123
    ujm
    Participant

    By the way, the idea of Israel should give up its land for peace, if that can be achieved, was advocated for by not only HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ztโ€l, but as well as by Chacham Ovadia Yosef zt”l and other Gedolei Yisroel.

    In fact, I can’t think of any bona fide Godol Yisroel who ever voiced disagreement with this idea.

    And the fact that Rav Shach, Chacham Ovadia, etc. advocated this, is the greatest indication that it is a viable and real option.

    Unlike some of the self-identified CR-experts here who poo-poo this as unfeasible and unrealistic. I’ll take the greats (Rav Shach, Chacham Ovadia, etc. ) over the CR-experts any day.

    in reply to: Proposed Solution to the Arab-Zionist Conflict: Non-Denominational State #2482035
    ujm
    Participant

    ZSK: I’ve studied Jewish, Muslim/Arabic and Christian/European culture longer than you. And your lack of knowledge is still very noticable. Even with your cut and paste job.

    You are still missing the point. No one ever said Jews lived beautifully under Arabic rule. It was pointed out over and over again that we are in Golus. We are in Golus whether living under Arabic rule in the Middle East or whether living under Zionist rule in the Holy Land. And while we are in Golus we have and will continue to absolutely suffer. That is by divine design. Whether it is the discriminatory taxes under Arab rule or whether it is October 7th under Zionist rule.

    But what you keep (purposely?) missing, despite it being pointed out to you again and again, is that for every entry under your cut and paste job there’s more than ten entries of persecution, suffering and destruction of Jewish life under Christian/European rule. And most of those more than ten to one ratio of Jewish persecution under Christian rule is more often ten times worse than what the Jews under Arabic rule experienced before the advent of Zionism.

    You may know a bit of Arabic history but you are sorely lacking in knowledge of non-Arabic, and especially of Christian and European, history of Jewish persecution.

    Quantifiable, quantitative and qualitative.

    in reply to: Letter From Bereaved Families #2482012
    ujm
    Participant

    Shimon: somejew obviously means he davens for the Hamas sodiers defeat and destruction.

    Hopefully you do as well.

    in reply to: Free ??? ?? ???? Sign #2482010
    ujm
    Participant

    What is a free ??? ?? ????

    in reply to: Tiferes Shlomo and the modern State of Israel #2482008
    ujm
    Participant

    Yankel: From what I know (not being the expert) I think that;s accurate. Others simply didn’t consider him to be a godol.

    in reply to: Are there any limits actually enforced by the moderators? #2481827
    ujm
    Participant

    Yankel:

    Kastner’s treachery in selling to the Nazis 500,000+ Hungarian Jewish lives in absolutely indefensible.

    And what do you have to say about the fact that Kastner was STILL defending Nazis AFTER the war was over, and there were no more even fake excuses for it?

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2481825
    ujm
    Participant

    LerntminTayrah:

    The Chazon Ish held the Imrei Emes in awe. When the Imrei Emes visited Bnei Brak, the Chazon Ish pushed through the crowds to catch a glimpse of him.

    The Chazon Ish had a famously close friendship with the Beis Yisrael (Rav Yisrael Alter). The Beis Yisrael (who was younger) would frequently visit the Chazon Ish’s home. They would speak for hours in private. The Beis Yisrael, in turn, sent his elite Chasidim to discuss Halacha with the Chazon Ish.

    The Chazon Ish famously said about the Belzer Rebbe: “He looks like a Malach of Hashem.” When the Belzer Rebbe arrived in Eretz Yisroel after the Holocaust, the Chazon Ish went out of his way to honor him, signaling to the Torah world that this man was royalty. There is a famous account where the Chazon Ish sent a student to observe the Belzer Rebbeโ€™s Tisch. When the student reported back that the Rebbe sat in silence for hours and barely ate, the Chazon Ish remarked, “That is how a Rebbe eats.”

    ujm
    Participant

    Shimon:

    Do you also disagree with HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ztโ€l when he said Israel should surrender land to the Arabs in exchange for peace, if possible?

    in reply to: Declare Neturei Karta to be Non-Jewish Rodfim and Enemies of the Jews #2481817
    ujm
    Participant

    Shimon:

    The Divrei Yoel ื–ืฆืดืœ in fact did authorize and participate in public demonstrations against the State of “Israel”.

    ujm
    Participant

    Simcha613:

    Let’s work together to make this proposal happen. Including a greater peace than the status quo.

    in reply to: EST mistake #2481811
    ujm
    Participant

    akuperma: The CR posts do generate advertising revenue.

    in reply to: What Exactly Do The Mods Know? #2481810
    ujm
    Participant

    ***MODS:***

    Please check the above two posts on this thread.

    in reply to: What Exactly Do The Mods Know? #2481712
    ujm
    Participant

    ********** PLEASE DO NOT POST **************
    ***** FOR MODS ONLY *****

    Dear Moderators,

    “GadolHadofi”, since his post on AUGUST 13, 2025, literally a majority of his posts have been dedicated to calling me “Joseph Goebbels”, a “Nazi” and “not Jewish”. I haven’t complained till now but perhaps I should have. I think this is highly inappropriate to call someone these vile names.

    Can I request that you delete all the posts of his since August 13 that directly call me a Nazi, Joseph Goebbels, etc?

    (And not post future such postings?)

    Thank you!

    See here below for a full listing of all his such posts:

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/users/gadolhadofi/replies

    ********** PLEASE DO NOT POST **************

    in reply to: What Exactly Do The Mods Know? #2481695
    ujm
    Participant

    ********** PLEASE DO NOT POST **************
    ***** FOR MODS ONLY *****

    Dear Moderators,

    “GadolHadofi”, since his post on AUGUST 13, 2025, literally a majority of his posts have been dedicated to calling me “Joseph Goebbels”, a “Nazi” and “not Jewish”. I haven’t complained till now but perhaps I should have. I think this is highly inappropriate to call someone these vile names.

    Can I request that you delete all the posts of his since August 13 that directly call me a Nazi, Joseph Goebbels, etc?

    (And not post future such postings?)

    Thank you!

    See here below for a full listing of all his such posts:

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/users/gadolhadofi/replies

    ********** PLEASE DO NOT POST **************

    in reply to: Tiferes Shlomo and the modern State of Israel #2481558
    ujm
    Participant

    SR โ€˜s opinion about rav kuk is well known and not a chiddush at all

    Actually, that isn’t true. Very few people are actually aware of the strong words (to put it diplomatically) that the SR said about RK, that I copied above.

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2481534
    ujm
    Participant

    DaMoshe:

    Apparently Rabbi Schachter “forgot” who the Jewish prisoner was, despite the fact he was all over the news for years in a highly publicized and a highly reported trial; and Rabbi Schachter claims he wrote the letter to the judge asking the prisoner be freed and to end his imprisonment because he thought a 50 year or 100 year sentence was highly uncommon for the crime he was convicted — and that Goyim don’t get such long sentences but this Jew got such a sentence because he was discriminated against as a Jew, which Rabbi Schachter said he found “scandalous”, so he advocated for his freedom.

    Now, such a sentence is in fact highly out of the ordinary for this kind of conviction and it exceeds similar convictions by a very great deal, so Rabbi Schachter was in fact correct about his original reasoning (as he explained himself) in writing the letter advocating for the Jews freedom.

    But once he got pressured from his crowd, and he needed a face saving excuse to explain why he’s suddenly withdrawing his letter despite nothing changed since he wrote it, so he suddenly decided such prison sentences are really very common, so he explained his original reason no longer applied.

    Makes a whole lot of sense, doesn’t it?

    in reply to: Are there any limits actually enforced by the moderators? #2481532
    ujm
    Participant

    YYA: I don’t know what you’re kvetching about. Everything I mentioned about Kapo Kastner is historically documented facts. Even his Zionist supporters don’t deny; instead they try to excuse it.

    One thing I didn’t mention yet is that even AFTER the war was over Kastner became a witness in the Nuremberg Trials ON BEHALF OF THE NAZIS who he tried to get exonerated and freed, being the friends Kastner was with those Nazis. And one Nazi Kastner in fact did get acquitted based on his testimony on behalf of his Nazi friend who he testified was a good guy.

    ujm
    Participant

    YYA: Do not falsely put words in my mouth. I specifically and clearly said that in Golus Jews suffered EVERYWHERE.

    But it is an absolutely undisputable historical fact that for 2,000 years leading up to 1945 Jews living under Arab and/or Muslim rule were FAR FAR BETTER off than Jews living under Christian and/or European rule.

    The reason the Arabs and Muslims NOW are the biggest Jew haters is directly and unambiguously due to the Zionist Project radicalizing them into the biggest Jew haters.

    ujm
    Participant

    ZSK: Your knowledge of history is very poor. The Jews under Arab and Muslim rule experienced nothing remotely close to the pograms, tach v’tat, annual Christmas attacks, and the Holocaust that Jews under Christian European control very RECENTLY in the last few hundred years through 1945 (people living in our generation) experienced.

    Anyone would have traded for Muslim rule rather than Christian/European rule anytime until 1945.

    in reply to: Are there any limits actually enforced by the moderators? #2481230
    ujm
    Participant

    Yankel: Correct, I made a typo. I meant to write for months (not years). The Nazis took over Hungary in 1944, months before the end of the war, That’s when Eichmann set up his headquarters in Hungary. And that’s when his Kapo Kastner joined him, working, chatting, smoking and making deals together until Eichmann fled from the advancing Allies.

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2480842
    ujm
    Participant

    DaMoshe: You are confirming what I said. Rabbi Schachter wrote a letter to the judge requesting the Jewish prisoner be released. When his MO crowd heard about it they got angry at him. Since they got angry at him, and he needs their patronage, he issued an apology for writing the letter — even though nothing changed between the time he wrote the letter and the time he apologized for it.

    Debating whether the Jewish prisoner should be released is irrelevant to the point. Whether you think he should or think he shouldn’t, nothing changed for Rabbi Schachter to suddently change his mind — other than he needs his crowd so he needs to toe their line.

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2480840
    ujm
    Participant

    chiefshmerel: There were a small community of Chasidim in Slutsk (mostly Chabad but some Polishe as well.) They were there already before the Beis Halevi become Rov in 1865 and remained there during his entire Rabbanus there. They had a Shteeble near the train station in Slutsk. And the Beis Halevi permitted their burial in the Slutsk Bais Hachaim.

    in reply to: Are there any limits actually enforced by the moderators? #2480215
    ujm
    Participant

    Yankel: It is a documented historical and undisputed fact that Kastner worked directly together with Eichmann, hand in hand out of his office, and they even smoked cigars together, while they were working for their mutual goals. Kastner helped deliver half a million Hungarian Jews to their deaths through Eichmann, by withholding his fore-knowledge that they were being shipped to death camps, in order to get a single train that 90% was composed of his immediate and extended family and his fellow Zionist. The other 10% of seats he sold (including to the Rebbes you mentioned, who paid full price for it.)

    in reply to: The Fourth Reich of “Israel” #2480294
    ujm
    Participant
    in reply to: Tiferes Shlomo and the modern State of Israel #2480217
    ujm
    Participant

    Shimon / Yankel:

    ื‘ืฉื•โ€ืช ื“ื‘ืจื™ ื™ื•ืืœ ืกื™ืžืŸ ืงืœื

    ื‘โ€ื”
    ืงื•ืœ ื ื”ื™ ื ืฉืžืข ื‘ืฆื™ื•ืŸ ืฆืขืงืช ื‘ื ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื”ื™ืจืื™ื ื•ื—ืจื“ื™ื ื‘ืขื™ืจ ื”โ€™ ืฉืžื” ื•ื”ื‘ื™ื“โ€ืฆ ืฉื‘ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื ืขื™ื”โ€ืง ืชโ€ื• ื•ื‘ืืฉื ื”ืจื‘ ื”ื’ืื•ืŸ ื”ืฆื“ื™ืง ื–ืงืŸ ื•ืงื ื” ื—ื›ืžื” ื›ืงืฉโ€ืช ืžื•ื”โ€ืจ ื™ื•ืกืฃ ื—ื™ื™ื ื–ืื ื ืขื ืคืขืœื“ ืฉืœื™โ€ื ื”ืื‘ื“ืงโ€ืง, ืžื‘ืงืฉื™ื ืื•ืชื ื• ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืœื”ื ืœืขื–ืจื” ื‘ืฆืจื”, ื•ืชืขืœ ื–ืขืงืชื ืืช ืคื ื™ ื”โ€™ ืื™ืš ื”ืžื—ื‘ืœื™ื ื›ืจืžื™ื ื›ืจื ื”โ€™ ืฆื‘ืื•ืช ื”ืžื” ื”ืžืขืžื™ื“ื™ื ืฆืœื ื‘ื”ื™ื›ืœ ื”โ€™ ื•ื ืกืคื—ื• ืขืœ ื‘ื™ืช ื™ืขืงื‘ ืœืกืคื—ืช ื•ืœื‘ื”ืจืช, ืืฉืจ ื›ืžื”ื• ืœื ื ื”ื™ืชื” ืฆืจืขืช ืžืžืืจืช, ืœืฆื•ื“ื“ ื ืคืฉื•ืช ืœื”ืฉืงื•ืชื ืžื™ื ื”ืจืขื™ื ื”ืžืืจืจื™ื ื”ื•ื ื”ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ื”ื›ืคื™ืจื” ืจโ€ืœ ืขื“ ืฉื‘ืขื•ื”โ€ืจ ื ืชืงื™ื™ื ื‘ื”ื ื”ื™ื• ืฆืจื™โ€™ ืœืจืืฉ, ืื™ืฉ ืฆืจ ื•ืื•ื™ื‘ ืœื“ืช ืชื•ืจืชื™ื ื• ื”ืงื“ื•ืฉื” ื•ืœืขื™ืงืจื™ ื”ืืžื•ื ื” ื“ืจืš ืงืฉืชื• ื›ืื•ื™ื‘ ืœื”ืคืจ ื‘ืจื™ืช ืขื•ืœื, ื”ื ืงื•ื‘ ื‘ืฉื ืื‘ืจื”ื ื™ืฆื—ืง ืงื•ืง, ื”ื•ื ื”ื’ื‘ืจ ืืฉืจ ื”ื—ื–ื™ืง ื•ื”ืจื—ื™ื‘ ื‘ืืจื”โ€ืง ื’ื‘ื•ืœ ื”ื˜ื•ืžืื” ืจโ€ืœ, ื”ื™ื ื”ืขื“ื” ื”ืจืขื” ื”ืžื›ื ื™ื ืขืฆืžื ื‘ืฉื ืฆื™ื•ื ื™ื, ืืฉืจ ื”ืŸ ื”ืžื” ื‘ืขืชื™ื ื”ืœืœื• ื”ืื‘ื ื™ ื ื’ืฃ ืœื‘ื™ืช ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื•ืžื—ืจื™ื‘ื™ื ืืจื”โ€ืง ื•ื›ืœ ื”ืืจืฆื•ืช ื‘ื›ืœืœ, ื”ืื•ืžืจื™ื ืขืจื• ืขืจื• ืขื“ ื”ื™ืกื•ื“ ื‘ื” ื”ื•ื ืงื™ื•ื ืชื•ื”โ€ืง ื•ื”ืืžื•ื ื” ื”ืžืกื•ืจื” ืœื ื•, ืฉื”ื•ื ื”ื™ืกื•ื“ ืœืงื™ื•ื ื›ืœ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื‘ื›ืœืœ ื•ื‘ืคืจื˜, ื•ืžื‘ืœืขื“ื™ ื–ืืช ื”ื•ืกื™ืฃ ืคืฉืขื™ื ืขืœ ืคืฉืขื™ื, ืœื”ื“ืคื™ืก ื‘ืกืคืจื™ื• ื”ื˜ืžืื™ื, ื’ืœื•ื™ื™ื ื•ื™ื“ื•ืขื™ื, ื“ื‘ืจื™ ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ื›ืคื™ืจื”, ื‘ืขื–ื•ืช ืžืฆื— ื•ื—ื•ืฆืคื” ื™ืชื™ืจื”, ืืช ื”โ€™ ื”ื•ื ืžื’ื“ืฃ ื‘ื™ื“ ืจืžื”, ืืฉืจ ืœ ื ื ืจืื” ื•ืœื ื ืฉืžืข ื›ื–ืืช ืžื™ืžื™ื ื™ืžื™ืžื”, ืชืกืžืจ ืฉืขืจื•ืช ืื ื•ืฉ ื•ืชืฆื™ืœื ื” ืฉืชื™ ืื–ื ื™ ื›ืœ ืฉื•ืžืข, ื”ื ื” ืืจืกื• ืืจืก ื‘ืจื–ืœ ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ื‘ื•ื˜ื” ื›ืžื“ืงืจื•ืช ื—ืจื‘ ืœื”ืกื™ืช ื•ืœื”ื“ื™ื— ืคืจื—ื™ ืฉื•ืฉื ื”, ื•ื”ืจื‘ ืžื“ื‘ืจื™ื• ื”ืžื“ืื™ื‘ื™ื ืœื‘ ื›ืœ ืžืืžื™ืŸ ื‘ื”โ€™ ืžื•ืขืชืงื™ื ื‘ืงื•ื ื˜ืจืก ืงื•ืœ ื’ื“ื•ืœ ื”ื ื“ืคืก ื‘ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื ื•ื‘ืžื›ืชื‘ื• ืฉืœ ื›ื‘ื•ื“ ื”ืจื‘ ื”ื’ืื•ืŸ ื”ืžืคื•ืจืกื ื”ืื‘ื“ืงโ€ืง ืกืื˜ืžืืจ ืฉืœื™ื˜โ€ื (ื”ืจื‘ ื™ื”ื•ื“ื ื’ืจื™ื ื•ื•ืืœื“-ืฉื•โ€ืช ื–ื›ืจื•ืŸ ื™ื”ื•ื“ื), ืื‘ืœ ื›ืืฉืจ ื”ื™โ€™ ืœื ื’ื“ื™ ื”ื—ื™ื‘ื•ืจื™ ืขืฆื‘ื™ื ืฉืœื• ืจืื™ืชื™ ื›ื™ ืขื•ื“ ื”ืจื‘ื” ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžืžื” ืฉื”ืขืชื™ืงื• ื”ื ื ืžืฆืื™ื ื‘ื—ื™ื‘ื•ืจื™ื•, ืžืœืื™ื ืขืœ ื›ืœ ื’ื“ื•ืชื™ื• ื“ื‘ืจื™ ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ื›ืคื™ืจื”, ืžืื•ื“ ื ื•ืจื, ื•ื™ืœืื” ืœื‘ ื›ืœ ืžืืžื™ืŸ ื‘ื”โ€™ ืœื”ืขืชื™ืง ืจื•ื‘ ื“ื‘ืจื™ ื˜ื•ืžืื” ื›ืืœื• ืื•ื™ ืœืขื™ื ื™ื ืฉื›ืš ืจื•ืื•ืช, ื”ืฉื™โ€ืช ื™ืจื—ื ื‘ืžื”ืจื”, ื•ื™ื ืงื•ื ื ืงืžืชื• ื•ื ืงืžืช ืขืžื• ื‘ื โ€ื™ ื‘ืจื•ื— ืกืขืจ ื•ื’ื‘ื•ืจื”.

    ื•ื”ื ื” ืืš ืœืžื•ืชืจ ืœื”ืืจื™ืš ื‘ื”ืœื›ื” ื–ื• ืฉื”ื•ืจืืชื• ืืกื•ืจื”, ื›ื™ ืืฃ ืžื™ ืฉืื™ื ื• ืžื™ืŸ ื•ื›ื•ืคืจ ืืœื ืฉืžื—ืœืœ ื”โ€™ ื•ืžื—ื˜ื™ื ืืช ื”ืจื‘ื™ื ื‘ืฉืืจ ืขื‘ื™ืจื•ืช, ืืกื•ืจ ืœืฉืžื•ืข ื”ื•ืจืื” ืžืคื™ื•, ื•ื‘ืฉื•โ€ืข ืกื™ืžืŸ ืจืžโ€ื’ ืกืขื™ืฃ ื’โ€™ ื“ืชโ€ื— ื”ืžื–ืœื–ืœ ื‘ืžืฆื•ืช ื•ืื™ืŸ ื‘ื• ื™ืจืืช ืฉืžื™ื ื”ืจื™ ื”ื•ื ื›ืงืœ ืฉื‘ืฆื™ื‘ื•ืจ, ื•ื”ื‘ื™ื ืขืœ ื–ื” ื‘ื‘ืจื›ื™ ื™ื•ืกืฃ ืฉื ื“ื›ืœ ืชโ€ื— ืฉื™ืฉ ื‘ื™ื“ื• ื—ื™ืœื•ืœ ื”โ€™ ืืกื•ืจ ืœืฉืžื•ืข ืžืžื ื• ื“ื‘ืจื™ ืชื•ืจื” ื•ืœืกืžื•ืš ืขืœ ื”ื•ืจืืชื• ื™ืขื™ื™โ€ืฉ ื‘ืฉื™ื•โ€ื‘, ื•ืขโ€ืข ื‘ืฉื•โ€ืช ื‘ื™ืช ืฉืœืžื” ื™ื•โ€ื“ ื—โ€ื‘ ืกื™ืžืŸ ืงโ€ื ื“ืืฃ ื“ืื™ืชื ื‘ื™ืจื•ืฉืœืžื™ (ืžื•ืขื“ ืงื˜ืŸ ืคืจืง ื’โ€™ ื”ืœื›ื” ืโ€™) ื–ืงืŸ ืฉืื™ืจืข ื‘ื• ื“ื‘ืจ ืื™ืŸ ืžื•ืจื™ื“ื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ืžื’ื“ืœืชื•, ืžื›ืœ ืžืงื•ื ืื ื”ื—ื˜ื™ื ืืช ื”ืจื‘ื™ื ื”ื•ื™ ื›ื™ืจื‘ืขื ื‘ืŸ ื ื‘ื˜ ื•ืคืฉื™ื˜ื ื“ืžื•ืจื™ื“ื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ืžื’ื“ื•ืœืชื• ื™ืขื™ื™โ€ืฉ, ื•ื‘ืžื™ื ื™ื ื•ืืคื™ืงื•ืจืกื™ื, ื›ื‘ืจ ื›ืชื‘ ื”ื—ืชโ€ืก ื‘ื—ื•โ€ืž ืกื™ืžืŸ ืงืกโ€ื‘, ื“ื›ื™ื•ืŸ ืฉืืกื•ืจ ืœืงืจื‘ ืืœ ืคืชื— ื‘ื™ืชื• ื•ื›ืœ ื‘ืื™ื” ืœื ื™ืฉื•ื‘ื•ืŸ ื•ืœื ื™ืฉื™ื’ื•ืŸ ืื•ืจื—ื•ืช ื—ื™ื™ื, ืžื›ืฉโ€ื› ืฉืืกื•ืจ ืœื™ืงื— ืชื•ืจื” ืžืคื™ื• ื™ืขื™ื™โ€ืฉ.

    ื•ื”ื ื” ื ื—ื–ื™ ืื ืŸ ื‘ื’ืžืจื ื’ื™ื˜ื™ืŸ ืคืจืง ื”ืฉื•ืœื— ื“ืฃ ืžโ€ื”, ืกืคืจ ืชื•ืจื” ืฉื›ืชื‘ื• ืžื™ืŸ ื™ืฉืจืฃ ื›ืชื‘ื• ืขื›ื•โ€ื ื™ื’ื ื–, ื•ื‘ืฉื‘ืช ื“ืฃ ืงื˜โ€ื– ืืžืจ ืจโ€™ ื˜ืจืคื•ืŸ ืฉืื ื™ื‘ื•ืื• ืœื™ื“ื™ ืฉืื ื™ ืืฉืจื•ืฃ ืื•ืชื ื•ืืช ื”ืื–ื›ืจื•ืช ืฉื‘ื”ืŸ, ืโ€ืจ ื™ืฉืžืขืืœ ืงโ€ื• ื•ืžื” ืœืขืฉื•ืช ืฉืœื•ื ื‘ื™ืŸ ืื™ืฉ ืœืืฉืชื• ืืžืจื” ืชื•ืจื” ืฉืžื™ ืฉื ื›ืชื‘ ื‘ืงื“ื•ืฉื” ื™ืžื—ื” ืขืœ ื”ืžื™ื, ื”ืœืœื• ืฉืžื˜ื™ืœื™ืŸ ืื™ื‘ื” ื•ืงื ืื” ื•ืชื—ืจื•ืช ื‘ื™ืŸ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœืื‘ื™ื”ืŸ ืฉื‘ืฉืžื™ื ืขืื›ื•โ€ื›, ื•ืขืœื™ื”ื ืืžืจ ื“ื•ื“ ื”ืœื ืžืฉื ืื™ืš ื”โ€™ ืืฉื ื ื•ื‘ืชืงื•ืžืžื™ืš ืืชืงื•ื˜ื˜ ืชื›ืœื™ืช ืฉื ืื” ืฉื ืืชื™ื ืœืื•ื™ื‘ื™ื ื”ื™ื• ืœื™, ื•ืœืฉื•ืŸ ื”ืจืžื‘โ€ื ื–โ€ืœ ื‘ืคโ€ื• ืžื”ืœื›ื•ืช ื™ืกื•ื“ื™ ื”ืชื•ืจื” ื”ืœื›ื” ื—โ€™, ืืคื™ืงื•ืจืก ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืฉื›ืชื‘ ืกโ€ืช ืฉื•ืจืคื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ืขื ื”ืื–ื›ืจื•ืช ืฉื‘ื• ื›ื“ื™ ืฉืœื ืœื”ื ื™ื— ืฉื ืœืืคื™ืงื•ืจืกื™ื ื•ืœื ืœืžืขืฉื™ื”ื ื™ืขื™ื™โ€ืฉ.

    ื”ื ื” ื›โ€ื› ื”ื—ืžื™ืจื• ื‘ืกืคืจ ืชื•ืจื” ืฉื›ืชื‘ื• ืžื™ืŸ ืœืžื—ื•ืง ืืช ื”โ€™ ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžื‘ื›ืชื‘ื• ืขื›ื•โ€ื ืžืฉื•ื ืฉืœื ืœื”ื ื™ื— ืฉื ืœืืคื™ืงื•ืจืกื™ื, ืืฃ ืฉื‘ืกืคืจ ืชื•ืจื” ืœื ื”ืขืชื™ืง ืืœื ืื•ืชื™ื•ืช ื”ืชื•ืจื” ื•ื”ืื–ื›ืจื•ืช ื•ืœื ื—ื™ื“ืฉ ืฉื ืฉื•ื ื“ื‘ืจ ืžื“ืขืชื•, ื•ืืš ื‘ืฉื‘ื™ืœ ืžื—ืฉื‘ืชื• ื–ืจื” ืฉื”ื™ื ืžืžืงื•ืจ ืžื™ื ื”ืจืขื™ื ืืฃ ืฉืื™ื ื” ื ื™ื›ืจืช ืžืชื•ืš ืžืขืฉื™ื•, ื”ื—ืžื™ืจื• ืฉืœื ืœื”ื ื™ื— ืฉื ืœืคืขืœื•ืชื™ื•, ื•ืžื›ืœ ืฉื›ืŸ ืฉืืกื•ืจ ืœื”ื ื™ื— ืœื• ืฉื ื•ืฉืืจื™ืช ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืœื• ืื™ื–ื” ื”ืชืžื ื•ืช ื‘ื”ื•ืจืื” ื•ืชื•ืจื”, ืฉื™ื•ื›ืœ ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ื—ื•ืชืจ ื—ืชื™ืจื”, ืœืืžืฉื•ื›ื™ ืื‘ืชืจื™โ€™ ื‘ื“ืขื” ื ืคืกื“ื” ื•ื–ืจื”, ืžืจื” ื›ืœืขื ื” ืจโ€ืœ.

    ื•ื™ืฉ ื›ืช ืฆื‘ื•ืขื™ื ื”ืžื—ืคื™ื ืขืœ ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ื•ื”ืืคื™ืงื•ืจืกื™ื ื‘ืืžืจื ืฉืื™ืŸ ืœื”ืชืงื•ื˜ื˜ ื›ื™ ื’ื“ื•ืœ ื”ืฉืœื•ื, ื•ืื ืื™ืŸ ืฉืœื•ื ืื™ืŸ ื›ืœื•ื, ื›ื”ื ื” ื•ื›ื”ื ื” ื“ื‘ืจื™ ื”ื‘ืœื™ื, ืื‘ืœ ื”ืชื ื ืจโ€ื™ ืžื›ื—ื™ืฉื ื‘ืœืžื“ื• ื”ื—ื™ื•ื‘ ืœืื‘ื“ ื›ื— ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ืžื”ื ืฉืฆื™ื•ืชื” ื”ืชื•ื”โ€ืง ืœืžื—ื•ืง ืืช ื”โ€™ ืขื‘ื•ืจ ื”ื˜ืœืช ื”ืฉืœื•ื ื›ื™ ื”ืŸ ื”ืžื” ื”ืžื˜ื™ืœื™ื ืื™ื‘ื” ื•ืชื—ืจื•ืช, ื•ื–ื”ื• ื”ืฉืœื•ื ืฉื‘ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœืื‘ื“ ื›ื— ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ื•ื™ื”ื™โ€™ ืื—ืจื™ืชื ืœื”ื›ืจื™ืช.

    ื•ื‘ื’ืžืจื ื‘ืจื›ื•ืช ื“ืฃ ื›โ€ื˜, ืฉืžืขื•ืŸ ื”ืคืงื•ืœื™ ื”ืกื“ื™ืจ ื™โ€ื— ื‘ื™ื‘ื ื”, ืืžืจ ืจโ€ื’ ื›ืœื•ื ื™ืฉ ืื“ื ืฉื™ื•ื“ืข ืœืชืงืŸ ื‘ืจื›ืช ื”ืฆื“ื•ืงื™ื, ืขืžื“ ืฉืžื•ืืœ ื”ืงื˜ืŸ ื•ืชื™ืงื ื”, ืœืฉื ื” ืื—ืจืช ืฉื›ื—ื” ื•ื”ืฉืงื™ืฃ ื‘ื” ืฉืชื™ื ื•ืฉืœืฉ ืฉืขื•ืช ื•ืœื ื”ืขืœื•ื”ื•, ื•ื”ืงืฉื• ืืžืื™ ืœื ื”ืขืœื•ื”ื• ื•ื”ืืจโ€ื™ ื˜ืขื” ื‘ื›ืœ ื”ื‘ืจื›ื•ืช ืื™ืŸ ืžืขืœื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ื‘ื‘ืจื›ืช ื”ืฆื“ื•ืงื™ื ืžืขืœื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ื—ื™ื™ืฉื™ื ืŸ ืฉืžื ืžื™ืŸ ื”ื•ื, ืฉืื ื™ ืฉืžื•ืืœ ื”ืงื˜ืŸ ื“ืื™ื”ื• ืชื™ืงื ื”, ื•ื ื™ื—ื•ืฉ ื“ืœืžื ื”ื“ืจ ื‘ื™โ€™ ื•ืืฃ ืฆื“ื™ืง ืžืขื™ืงืจื ื“ืœืžื ื”ื“ืจ ื‘ื™โ€™ ื›ื•โ€™ ืฉืื ื™ ืฉืžื•ืืœ ื”ืงื˜ืŸ ื“ืืชื—ื™ืœ ื‘ื” [ื•ื“ืขืช ื”ืจโ€ื™ ืฉื ื“ืžื” ืฉืืžืจื• ืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ื‘ื˜ืขื” ื‘ื‘ืจื›ืช ื”ืžื™ื ื™ืŸ ื”ื›ื•ื•ื ื” ืฉืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ืœื’ืžืจื™ ืฉืœื ื™ื”ื ืขื•ื“ ืฉโ€ืฅ ืœืขื•ืœื. ื•ื”ืžื’โ€ื ื‘ืกื™ืžืŸ ืงื›โ€ื• ืžืฆื“ื“ ืฉืื™ืŸ ืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ืžืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืขื•ื“ ืฉโ€ืฅ ื‘ืฉื‘ื™ืœ ืคโ€ื, ื•ื‘ื™ืืจ ืฉื ื‘ืžื—ืฆื™ืช ื”ืฉืงืœ ืฉื–ื” ื“ืขืช ื”ื—ื•ืœืงื™ืŸ ืขืœ ื”ืจโ€ื™ ื–โ€ืœ ืฉืื™ืŸ ื”ื›ื•ื•ื ื” ื‘ืฉโ€ืก ืฉืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ืœื•ืœื ืืœื ืœืคื™ ืฉืขื”. ื•ืขืœ ื›ืœ ืคื ื™ื ืžื“ื›ืชื‘ ื”ืžื’โ€ื ื‘ื–ื” ืฉืื™ืŸ ืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ื‘ืกื‘ื™ืœ ืคโ€ื ืื ื›ืŸ ื ืจืื” ื“ืื ืื™ืจืข ืœื• ื›ืŸ ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžืคโ€ื ื›ื™ืœื™ ืขืœืžื ืžื•ื“ื™ ืฉืžืขื‘ื™ืจื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ืฉืœื ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืขื•ื“ ืฉโ€ืก ืœืขื•ืœื, ืืฃ ื‘ื–ืžื ื• ืฉืœ ื”ืžื’โ€ื ืฉื›ืชื‘ ืฉื ืฉืœื ื”ื™โ€™ ืื– ืžื™ื ื™ื ืžืฆื•ื™ื™ื, ื•ืคืœื•ื’ืชืชืŸ ื‘ื–ื” ืกื•ื‘ื‘ ืขืœ ื“ื‘ืจื™ ื”ืฉโ€ืก ื“ืžื™ื™ืจื™ ื‘ืคืขื ื”ืจืืฉื•ื ื” ื›ืขื•ื‘ื“ื ื“ืฉืžื•ืืœ ื”ืงื˜ืŸ.

    ื•ื”ื ื” ื‘ืืžืช ื›ืœืœื ื”ื•ื ืฉืื™ืŸ ืžื•ืฆื™ืื™ืŸ ืฉื•ื ืื“ื ืžื—ื–ืงืช ื›ืฉืจื•ืช ื›ืœ ื›ืžื” ื“ืืคืฉืจ ืœื“ื•ื ื• ืœื›ืฃ ื–ื›ื•ืช ืฉืœื ื”ื™โ€™ ืืœื ื˜ืขื•ืช ื•ืฉื’ื™ืื”, ื•ืืฃ ื‘ื˜ื‘ื— ืฉื”ื•ืฆื™ื ื˜ืจื™ืคื•ืช ืžืชื—ืช ื™ื“ื• ืฉืžื‘ื•ืืจ ื‘ืฉื•โ€ืข ื™ื•โ€ื“ ื‘ื™ืžืŸ ืงื™โ€ื˜ ืกืขื™ืฃ ื™โ€ื– ืฉืื™ืŸ ืœื• ื”ืชื ืฆืœื•ืช ืœื•ืžืจ ืฉื•ื’ื’ ื”ื™ื™ืชื™, ืžื‘ื•ืืจ ื”ื˜ืขื ื‘ืชืฉื•โ€™ ื”ืจืฉื‘โ€ื ืกื™ืžืŸ ื›โ€™ (ืฉืฉื ืžืงื•ืจ ื“ื™ืŸ ื–ื”) ืฉืโ€ื ืœื•ืžืจ ื‘ื• ืžื™ื˜ืขื™ ื˜ืขื” ื›ื™ ื”ื˜ืจื™ืคื•ืช ื™ื“ื•ืขื™ื ื”ื ื•ืื ืœื ื ื•ื“ืขื• ืœื–ื” ืื™ืŸ ืจืื•ื™ ืœืžื ื•ืชื• ื˜ื‘ื— ื•ืœืกืžื•ืš ืขืœื™ื• ื›ืœืœ, ื•ื›ืŸ ื–ื” ื›ืชื‘ ื”ืจืโ€ืฉ ื–โ€ืœ ื‘ืชืฉื•โ€™ ื›ืœืœ ื›โ€™ (ื“ื™ืŸ ื›โ€ื˜), ื•ืืขืคื™โ€ื› ื”ื‘ื™ื ืขโ€ื– ื”ืฉโ€ืš ืฉื ื‘ืกโ€ืง ืœโ€ื’ ื“ื‘ืจื™ ื”ืžื”ืจื™โ€ื• ื“ื‘ืื“ื ื“ื™ื“ื•ืข ืฉื”ื•ื ื™โ€ืฉ ื•ืžื“ืงื“ืง ื‘ืžืขืฉื™ื• ืขื“ื™ื™ืŸ ืืžืจื™ื ืŸ ื‘ื™โ€™ ื“ื•ื“ืื™ ืžืฉื’ื” ื”ื•ื ื•ืœื ื—ื™ื™ืฉื™ื ืŸ ื“ืœืžื ื”ื“ืจ ื‘ื™โ€™, ื•ื›ืืŸ ื‘ื‘ืจื›ืช ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ื”ืžื•ื–ื›ืจ ื‘ืฉโ€ืก ื“ื•ื“ืื™ ืืคืฉืจ ืœืžื™ืžืจ ื‘ื™โ€™ ืฉื˜ืขื” ื“ื›ืŸ ื”ื™โ€™ ื”ืืžืช ื‘ืฉืžื•ืืœ ื”ืงื˜ืŸ ืฉื”ื™โ€™ ื˜ืขื•ืช, ื•ืขื™ื™โ€ืฉ ื‘ืคื โ€ื™ ืฉื‘ื™ืืจ ืขื ื™ืŸ ื”ื˜ืขื•ืช ื‘ื–ื”, ื•ื‘ืฉืืจ ื‘ืจื›ื•ืช ืžืžืชื™ื ืŸ ืœื™โ€™ ื‘ืืžืช ืขื“ ืฉื™ื–ื›ื•ืจ, ื•ื‘ื‘ืจื›ืช ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ืžื‘ื•ืืจ ืฉื ื‘ืจืฉื‘โ€ื ื•ื˜ื•ืฉโ€ืข ื‘ืกื™โ€™ ื”ื โ€ืœ ืฉืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ืžื™ื“ ื•ืื™ืŸ ืžืžืชื™ื ื™ืŸ ืœื• ื›ืœืœ ืœื”ื–ื›ื™ืจื•, ื•ืœืžื” ื ื•ืฆื™ื ืื“ื ื›ืฉืจ ืžื—ื–ืงืชื• ืœื”ื›ืœื™ืžื• ื•ืœืกืœืงื• ืื ืืคืฉืจ ืœื•ืžืจ ืฉื˜ืขื” ื•ืื™ืŸ ื‘ื• ืฆื“ ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื›ืœืœ, ื‘ืคืจื˜ ื‘ืฆื“ื™ืง ื’ืžื•ืจ ื›ืฉืžื•ืืœ ื”ืงื˜ืŸ ื•ื‘ืขืฆืžื• ืชื™ืงืŸ ื‘ืจื›ืช ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ื•ืื™ืœื• ืœื ื”ื™ื” ืžืชื—ื™ืœ ื‘ื” ืื– ื”ื™ื• ืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ื•ื”ื™ื• ื—ื•ืฉื“ื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ื“ืœืžื ื”ื“ืจ ื‘ื™โ€™ ื•ื—โ€ื• ืžื™ืŸ ื”ื•ื, ื•ืœื“ืขืช ื”ืจโ€ื™ ื”ื™โ€™ ืžืกื•ืœืง ืœืขื•ืœื ื‘ืฉื‘ื™ืœ ืคืขื ื”ืจืืฉื•ื ื” ืชื™ื›ืฃ ื•ืžื™ื“, ื•ืขโ€ื› ืฉื”ื—ืžื™ืจื• ื™ื•ืชืจ ื‘ื—ืฉืฉื ื“ืžื™ื ื•ืช ืžื‘ืฉืืจ ืขื‘ื™ืจื•ืช ืืฃ ื‘ืกืคื™ืงื ื ื’ื“ ื—ื–ืงื” ื“ืžืขื™ืงืจื ื•ืฉืื ื™ ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื“ืžืฉื›ื ื•ื—ืžื•ืจ ื˜ื•ื‘ื].

    ื•ืขื›โ€ืค ื›ื™ื•ืŸ ืฉืžื‘ื•ืืจ ื‘ื’ืžืจื ื•ืฉื•โ€ืข ื“ืจืง ื‘ืฉื‘ื™ืœ ืฉืžื•ื ืข ืขืฆืžื• ืžืœืงืœืœ ืืช ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ื•ืืฃ ืฉื™ื•ื›ืœ ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืฉืื™ื ื• ืืœื ื˜ืขื•ืช ืžโ€ืž ืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื•, ืโ€ื› ื›ืฉโ€ื› ืžื™ ืฉืžื’ืœื” ื“ืขืชื• ื‘ืคื™โ€™ ืฉืื™ื ื• ืจื•ืฆื” ืœืงืœืœื ื‘ืื•ืคืŸ ืฉืื™ืŸ ืœื”ืกืชืคืง ื‘ื• ืฉืžื ืฉื›ื— ื•ื˜ืขื”, ื•ืงโ€ื• ื‘ืžื™ ืฉื“ืจื›ื• ืขื•ื“ ืœืฉื‘ื—ื ื•ืœื—ื–ืงื ืฉื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื‘ืจื•ืจ ืฉืฆืจื™ืš ืœืกืœื• ืžื›ืœ ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื‘ืงื“ื•ืฉื”, ื•ืืฆโ€ืœ ืฉืœื ื™ื”ื™โ€™ ืจื‘ ื•ืžื•ืจื” ื‘ื™ืฉืจืืœ.

    ื•ืโ€ื› ืื•ืชื• ื”ืื™ืฉ ื”ื ื–ื›ืจ ืœืขื™ืœ ืฉื–ื” ื“ืจื›ื• ืœื—ื–ืง ื•ืœืจื•ืžื ื”ืฆื™ื•ื ื™ื ื”ื—ืœื•ืฆื™ื ื”ื›ื•ืคืจื™ื ื‘ืืœืงื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื‘ืคืจื”ืกื™ื ื•ื‘ืคื•ืžื‘ื™, ื–ื” ื‘ืœื‘ื“ ืžืกืคื™ืง ืœื‘ื™ืจื•ืจ ื”ื”ืœื›ื” ืฉื”ื—ื™ื•ื‘ ืœืกืœืงื• ื•ืœื”ืจื—ื™ืงื• ืžื›ืœ ื‘ื™ืช ื™ืฉืจืืœ, ื•ืงโ€ื• ืื—ืจื™ ืฉื‘ื—ื™ื‘ื•ืจื™ื• ื”ืืœื™ืœื™ื, ืขื•ื“ ื”ืจื‘ื” ื’ื™ืœื•ืœื™ื, ื‘ืจโ€ื” ื•ื‘ืจื”โ€ื™ ื™ื—ื™ื“ื• ืฉืœ ืขื•ืœื, ื•ื”ืจืื” ืœื“ืขืช, ื“ื›ืœ ืฉื›ืŸ ื“ืคืงืจ ื˜ืคื™ ื‘ื›ืœ ืžื™ื ื™ ืžืจืื•ืช ื ื’ืขื™ื ื•ืฆืจืขืช, ื•ืขืœ ื”ื›ืœืœ ื›ื•ืœื• ื™ืฆื, ืœื›ืคื•ืจ ื‘ืชื•ืจื” ืฉื‘ื›ืชื‘ ื•ื‘ืขโ€ืค ื•ื‘ืขื™ืงืจื™ ื”ืืžื•ื ื” ืœืชืช ืื•ืชื ืœืฉืžืฆื”, ืชื• ืื™ืŸ ืกืคืง ื›ื™ ื”ื•ืจืืชื• ื•ื›ืœ ื“ื‘ืจื™ื• ื•ืขื ื™ื ื™ื• ื˜ืžืื™ื ื•ืžื˜ืžืื™ื, ื•ืืฉืจ ื™ืจื—ื™ืงื• ืžืžื ื• ื‘ืœื‘ ืชืžื™ื, ื‘ืขื–ืจ ืืœืงื™ ื™ื”ื™ื• ื ืงื™ื™ื, ื•ื”ืžืชื—ื‘ืจื™ื ืืœื™ื• ืžื—ืžืช ื“ื•ื—ืง ืžืžื•ืŸ, ื•ืžืฉืชื—ื•ื™ื ืœืื’ื•ืจืช โ€œื›ืกืฃโ€ ืชื—ื™ืœืช ื—ื™ืžื•ืฅ โ€œื”ื›ืกื™ืคื•โ€ ืคื ื™ื”ื ืœืื‘ื™ื”ื ืฉื‘ืฉืžื™ื, ื•ืกื•ืคื ืœื‘ืืจ ืฉื—ืช ื‘ื•ืจ ืจื™ืง ืื™ืŸ ื‘ื• ืžื™ื, ืื‘ืœ ื ื—ืฉื™ื ื•ืงืจื‘ื™ื ื‘ื”ื ืœื”ื˜ื•ืช ื—โ€ื• ืœื‘ื‘ื•ืช ื‘ื โ€ื™ ืžื“ืจืš ื”ื—ื™ื™ื, ืจโ€ืœ, ื•ืืžืจื• ื—ื›ื–โ€ืœ (ืคืกื—ื™ื ื“ืฃ ื›โ€ื” ืขโ€ื) ื‘ื›ืœ ืžืชืจืคืื™ืŸ ื—ื•ืฅ ืžืขืฆื™ ืืฉื™ืจื”, ื•ืœื“ื™ื™ืŸ ืฉืื™ื ื• ื”ื’ื•ืŸ ืืฃ ืžื—ืžืช ืฉืืจ ืžืขืฉื™ื• ืจืขื™ื ืฉืื™ื ื ืฉืœ ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ืืคื™ืงื•ืจืกื•ืช ืงืจืื• ื—ื›ืžื™ื ื• ื–โ€ืœ (ืกื ื”ื“ืจื™ืŸ ื“ืฃ ื–โ€™ ืขโ€ื‘) ืืฉื™ืจื”, ื•ืงืœ ื•ื—ื•ืžืจ ื‘ื™ืช ื’ืื™ื ืฉืœ ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ื›ืคื™ืจื” ืืžืจื• ื—ื›ืžื™ื ื• ื–โ€ืœ ื‘ืžืกื›ืช ืฉื‘ืช ื“ืฃ ืงื˜โ€ื– ืฉืืคื™ืœื• ืื“ื ืจื•ื“ืฃ ืื—ืจื™ื• ืœื”ืจื’ื• ื•ื ื—ืฉ ืจืฅ ืื—ืจื™ื• ืœื”ื›ื™ืฉื• ื ื›ื ืก ืœื‘ื™ืช ืฉืœ ืขื‘ื•ื“ื” ื–ืจื” ื•ืื™ื ื• ื ื›ื ืก ืœื‘ืช ื™ื”ืŸ ืฉืœ ืืœื• ืฉืืœื• ืื™ืŸ ืžื›ื™ืจื™ืŸ ื•ื›ื•ืคืจื™ืŸ ื•ืืœื• ืžื›ื™ืจื™ืŸ ื•ื›ื•ืคืจื™ืŸ, ื•ืโ€ื› ืžื•ื˜ื‘ ืœื”ื ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ื ืžื›ืจ ืœืขโ€ื– ืขืฆืžื” ื•ืœื ืœืžื™ืŸ ื•ืืคื™ืงื•ืจืก, ืฉื•ืจืฉ ืคื•ืจื” ืจืืฉ ื•ืœืขื ื” ื•ืืฉื›ืœื•ืช ืžืจื•ืจื•ืช, ื•ืืฉืจ ื‘ื”โ€™ ื™ืฉื™ื ืžื‘ื˜ื—ื• ื™ืื™ืจ ืืœื™ื• ื ื•ืจื ืชื”ืœื•ืช, ื•ื›ื‘ืจ ื ืชื‘ืืจ ื”ื“ื™ืŸ ื”ืœื›ื” ื‘ืจื•ืจื”, ืฉืžื™ ืฉืื™ื ื• ืจื•ืฆื” ืœืงืœืœ ืืช ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ื‘ืคืจื”ืกื™ื, ื‘ื”ืงืœืœื” ืืฉืจ ืœื”ื ืจืื•ื™โ€™, ืืฃ ืฉื”ื™โ€™ ืฆื“ื™ืง ืžืขื™ืงืจื, ืฉืชื™ืงื” ื–ื• ืžืขื™ื“ื” ืขืœื™ื• ืฉื‘ื ื‘ื—ื–ืจื”, ื•ื ืชืคืก ื‘ืื•ืชื” ืขืฆื” ื”ื ื‘ืขืจื”, ืœื—ื‘ืง ื—ื™ืง ื ื›ืจื™โ€™, ื”ื™ื ื”ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื”ืืจื•ืจื”, ื”ืฉื™โ€ืช ื™ืจื—ื ืœืขืงืจื”, ืœืฉืจืฉื” ืœื‘ืขืจื”, ื•ืืœ ื™ื•ืกื™ืคื• ืขื•ื“ ืœื“ืื‘ื”, ืœื ืคืฉื•ืช ื‘ื โ€ื™ ื”ื ืื ื—ื™ื ื‘ืœื‘ ื•ืจื•ื— ื ืฉื‘ืจื”, ื•ื ืคืฉื ื—ืฉืงื” ื‘ืชื•ืจื”, ื”ืฉื™โ€ืช ื™ื•ืฆื™ืื ื• ืžืืคื™ืœื” ืœืื•ืจื”.

    ื•ืืชื ื‘ื โ€ื™ ื”ื™ืจืื™ื ื•ื”ื—ืจื“ื™ื, ื—ื–ืงื• ื•ืืžืฆื•, ืื™ืฉ ืืช ืจืขื”ื• ื™ืขื–ื•ืจื• ื•ื”ื—ืœืฉ ื™ืืžืจ ื’ื‘ื•ืจ ืื ื™ ืœืœื—ื•ื ืžืœื—ืžื•ืช ื”โ€™ ืœื”ืขื‘ื™ืจ ืžืžืฉืœืช ื–ื“ื•ืŸ ืžืŸ ื”ืืจืฅ ื•ืœื”ืกื™ืจ ื”ืืฉื™ืจื” ื”ื–ืืช ืžืžืงื•ื ื”ืงื“ื•ืฉ, ื•ื”ืฉื™โ€ืช ื™ืชืŸ ืœื›ื ืจื—ืžื™ื, ื‘ืœื‘ ืฉืจื™ื ื•ืžืœื›ื™ื, ืฉืœื ืœื”ืฉืœื™ื˜ ืขื•ื“ ืฉื‘ื˜ ื”ืจืฉืข ืขืœื™ื›ื, ืขื“ ื™ืฉืงื™ืฃ ื•ื™ืจื ื”โ€™ ื‘ืขื ื™ื ื•, ื•ื‘ืžืขื’ืœื™ ืฆื“ืง ื™ื ื—ื™ื ื•, ื•ืžืฆืจื” ืœืจื•ื—ื” ื™ื•ืฆื™ืื ื•, ื•ืžืชื•ืš ื—ืฉื™ื›ื” ื™ืื™ืจ ืขื™ื ื™ื ื•, ื‘ื™ืฉื•ืขื•ืชื• ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื” ืœืฉืžื—ื™ื ื•, ื‘ืฉืžื—ืช ืฆื™ื•ืŸ ื•ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื ืœืขื‘ื“ื• ืฉื ื‘ืฉืžื—ื” ื•ืœื‘ื‘ ื˜ื•ื‘.

    ืโ€ื“ ื”ื›ื•ืชื‘ ื•ื ืื ื— ืžืฆืคื” ืœืจื—ืžื™ ืฉืžื™ื ื•ืœื™ืฉื•ืขืช ื›ืœ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื‘ืžื”ืจื”, ื™ื•ื ื”โ€™ ืœืกโ€™ ื•ื–ืืช ืขืฉื• ืœื”ื ื•ื—ื™ื• ืœโ€ื˜ ืœืžื‘ื โ€ื™ ืชืจืคโ€ื– ืœืคโ€ืง, ืคืงโ€ืง ืงืจืืœื™ ื™ืฆโ€ื•

    ื”ืงโ€™ ื™ื•ืืœ ื˜ื™ื™ื˜ืœื‘ื•ื™ื

    ืกื™ืžืŸ ืงืœื‘
    ื‘ืขโ€ื”, ื›โ€ื“ ืืœื•ืœ ื™ื•ื ืโ€™ ื“ืกืœื™ื—ื•ืช ื”ืชืจืฆโ€ื‘ ืœืคโ€ื’, ืคื” ืขืœ ื”ืกืคื™ื ื”

    ื›ืืฉืจ ื–ื›ื™ืชื™ ืชโ€ืช ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ื‘ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื ืขื™ื”โ€ืง ืชื•ื‘ื‘โ€ื ื•ืœื—ื‘ื‘ ืื”โ€ืง, ืฉืืœื•ื ื™ ืจื‘ื™ื ื•ื›ืŸ ืฉืœืžื™ื ืขโ€ื“ ื”ืจื‘ ืงื•ืง ื”ืขื•ืžื“ ื‘ืจืืฉ ืœื”ืจื—ื™ื‘ ื’ื‘ื•ืœ ื”ืฆื™ื•ื ื™ื ื•ื”ืžื–ืจื—ื™ื ื”ื˜ืžืื™ื ื•ื”ืžื˜ืžืื™ื ืจโ€ืœ, ืืฉืจ ืœื“ืื‘ื•ืŸ ืœื‘ื™ื ื• ื”ืŸ ื”ืžื” ื”ืืจื™ื›ื• ืงื™ืฆื™ื ื• ื•ื”ืฉืจื™ืฉื• ืฉื•ืจืฉ ืคื•ืจื” ืจืืฉ ื•ืœืขื ื” ืฉืœ ื”ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ื”ื›ืคื™ืจื” ืจโ€ืœ ื‘ืื”โ€ืง, ื•ื–ื” ืื™ื–ื” ืฉื ื™ื ืืฉืจ ืจืื™ืชื™ ืžื›ืชื‘ื™ื ืฉืœ ื›ื‘ื•ื“ ื™ื“ื™ื“ื™ื™ ื”ืจื‘ ื”ื’ื”โ€ืฆ ื”ืื‘ื“ืงโ€ืง ืกืื˜ืžืืจ ื–โ€ืœ ( ื”ืจื‘ ื™ื”ื•ื“ื ื’ืจื™ื ื•ื•ืืœื“-ื–ื›ืจื•ืŸ ื™ื”ื•ื“ื) ื•ืœื”ื‘ืœโ€ื— ื”ืจื‘ ื”ื’ื”โ€ืฆ ื”ืื‘ื“ืงโ€ืง ืงืืฉื•ื™ื ืฉืœื™ื˜โ€ื (ื”ืจื‘ ืฉืื•ืœ ื‘ืจืืš-ืžืฉืžืจืช ืืœืขื–ืจ) ื•ืขื•ื“ ืžืฉืืจ ื’ืื•ื ื™ื ื•ืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื ืฉื‘ืžื“ื™ื ื•ืช ืื—ืจื•ืช ืฉื—ืจืฆื• ืขืœื™ื• ืžืฉืคื˜ื• ืฉืืกื•ืจ ืœื™ืงื— ื”ื•ืจืื” ืžืคื™ื• ื•ื—ืœื™ืœื” ืœื”ืชื—ื‘ืจ ืขืžื•, ื•ืžืงืฆืชื ืฉืœ ืžื›ืชื‘ื™ื ืืœื• ื›ื‘ืจ ื ื“ืคืกื•, ื’ื ืื ื›ื™ ื‘ืขื ื™ื™ ื›ืชื‘ืชื™ ืื– ื‘ื–ื” ื‘ืืจื™ื›ื•ืช (ืขโ€™ ื‘ืกื™โ€™ ื”ืงื•ื“ื) ื›ืืฉืจ ื”ื™โ€™ ืœืžืจืื” ื™ื ื™ ื—ื™ื‘ื•ืจื™ ืขืฆื‘ื™ื ืฉืœื• ื”ืžืœืื™ื ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ื›ืคื™ืจื” ืจโ€ืœ, ื•ืžืžืฉ ื‘ื•ื˜ื” ื›ืžื“ืงื™ืจื•ืช ื—ืจื‘ ื‘ื“ื‘ืจื™ื ื—ื“ื™ื ืขืœ ื”โ€™ ื•ืขืœ ืžืฉื™ื—ื•, ื•ืขืœ ื–ื” ื“ื•ื” ืœื‘ ื”ืžืืžื™ืŸ ื‘ื”ืฉื™โ€ืช ื•ื‘ืชื•ืจืชื• ื”ืงื“ื•ืฉื” ื‘ืื•ืคืŸ ื ื•ืจื, ืื‘ืœ ืขื•ื“ ื’ืจื•ืข ืžื–ื” ืžืขืฉื™ื• ื”ืจืขื™ื ืืฉืจ ืžืžืฉื™ืš ืœื‘ ื”ืขื ื•ื‘ื ื™ ืฆื™ื•ืŸ ื”ื™ืงืจื™ื ืœืจืฉืช ื”ืžื–ืจื—ื™ื ื•ื‘ืชื™ ืกืคืจื™ื”ื ืืฉืจ ื”ืŸ ื”ืžื” ื”ืžื—ืจื™ื‘ื™ื ื™ืกื•ื“ื•ืช ืื”โ€ืง ื•ืžื˜ื™ืœื™ื ืืจืก ื‘ื™ืœื“ื™ ื‘ื ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœื—ื ื›ื ื‘ื“ืจื›ื™ ื”ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ืœืกื•ืจ ืžืขื™ืงืจื™ ื•ื™ืก ื•ื“ื™ ื“ืชื•ื”โ€ืง, ื•ืื™ืŸ ืœื”ืืจื™ืš ื‘ื”ื ื›ื™ ื›ื‘ืจ ื ื•ื“ืข ืืฉืจ ืžื™ืกื•ื“ ืžื™ื ื”ืจืขื™ื ืžืงื•ืจื ื•ืžื™ื•ื ืฉื ื™ืชื ื” ืชื•ืจื” ืœื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœื ื”ื™โ€™ ื™ืกื•ื“ ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื›ืืœื” ืืฉืจ ื”ื“ื™ื—ื• ืืœืคื™ื ื ืคืฉื•ืช ืžื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœื›ืคื•ืจ ื‘ื”โ€™ ื•ื‘ืชื•ืจืชื• ื”ืงื“ื•ืฉื”, ื•ืœื ื™ืกืชืคืง ื‘ื–ื” ืœื‘ ืืžืช ืืฉืจ ื”ืขื•ืžื“ ื‘ืฆื™ื“ื ืœื”ืจื—ื™ื‘ ื’ื‘ื•ืœื ื’ืจื•ืข ืžื”ื.

    ื•ืžื‘ื•ืืจโ€ฆ(ื”ืขื ื™ืŸ ืžื‘ื•ืืจ ื‘ืกื™ืขืฃ ื”ื โ€ืœ)

    ืขื›โ€ืค ืื ื• ืจื•ืื™ื ื”ื—ื•ืžืจื ื”ืขืฆื•ืžื” ืฉื”ื—ืžื™ืจื• ื—ื›ืžื™ื ื• ื–โ€ืœ ื‘ื–ื”, ื“ืžื™ ืฉืฉื•ืชืง ืžืœืงืœืœ ืืช ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ืืฃ ืฉืืคืฉืจ ืœื“ื•ื ื• ื’ื ืœื›ืฃ ื–ื›ื•ืช ืžโ€ืž ืœื ื™ื•ืขื™ืœื• ืœื• ื›ืœ ืฆื“ืงื•ืชื™ื• ื•ืžืกืœืงื™ืŸ ืื•ืชื• ื‘ืจื‘ื™ื ืœืžืขืŸ ืœื ื™ืžืฉื›ื• ืื—ืจื™ื• ื‘ื™ืช ื™ืฉืจืืœ, ื•ืงโ€ื• ื‘ื™ืžื™ ืฉืžืฉื‘ื— ื•ืžืจื•ืžื ืื•ืชื ื•ืžืžืฉื™ืš ืจื‘ื™ื ืžื”ืขื ืื—ืจ ื“ืขืช ื”ืžื™ื ื™ื ื”ืžืคื•ืจืกืžื™ื ืจโ€ืœ, ืฉื—ืœื™ืœื” ืœื”ืชื—ื‘ืจ ืขืžื• ื•ืœืฉืžื•ืข ื”ื•ืจืื” ืžืคื™ื• ืœื ื“ื‘ืจ ื•ืœื ื—ืฆื™ ื“ื‘ืจ.

    ื•ื‘ืขื•โ€ื” ื”ืŸ ืจื‘ื™ื ืขืชื” ื”ื ืžืฉื›ื™ื ืื—ืจื™ื• ื•ื ื’ืจืจื™ื ืื‘ืชืจื™โ€™, ืื‘ืœ ืืฃ ืื ื™ืชืงื‘ืฆื• ื›ืœ ื”ืจื•ื—ื•ืช ืฉื‘ืขื•ืœื ืœื ื™ื•ื›ืœื• ืœื–ื•ื– ืื•ืช ืื—ืช ืžื”ืชื•ื”โ€ืง ื•ืžื” ืฉื”ื•ื ื‘ืจื•ืจ ืžื“ื‘ืจื™ ื—ื›ืžื™ื ื• ื–โ€ืœ ื•ื”ืคื•ืกืงื™ื, ื•ื‘ืืžืช ื”ืจื‘ื” ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžืžื” ืฉื›ืชื‘ืชื™ ื›ืืŸ ื™ืฉ ื‘ื–ื” ื‘ื“ื‘ืจื™ ืฉโ€ืก ื•ืคื•ืกืงื™ื, ืืš ื‘ืขื•โ€ื” ื‘ืขืงื‘ื ื“ืžืฉื™ื—ื ื”ื ืกื™ื•ื ื•ืช ืžืจื•ื‘ื™ื ื”ืžืกืžื™ื ืืช ื”ืขื ื™ื ื•ื”ืจื‘ื” ืกื™ื‘ื•ืช ื‘ื–ื” ื”ืžื˜ืขื™ื ืœื‘ ื”ืขื ืฉืโ€ื ืœืคื•ืจื˜ื, ื•ืžืฆื•ืจืฃ ืœื–ื” ื ืกื™ื•ืŸ ื”ืขื•ื ื™ ื”ืžืขื‘ืจืช ืขืœ ื“ืขืช ืงื•ื ื• ื›ืžโ€ืฉ ื—ื›ื–โ€ืœ (ืขื™ืจื•ื‘ื™ืŸ ื“ืฃ ืžโ€ื ืขโ€ื‘), ืื‘ืœ ื”ืื™ืฉ ื”ื ืœื‘ื‘ ื™ืขืžื•ื“ ื‘ืืžื•ื ืชื• ื•ื™ืฆื™ืœ ื ืคืฉื• ืžื“ืจืš ื”ืžื‘ื™ื ืœื‘ืืจ ืฉื—ืช ืจโ€ืœ, ื•ื”ื™โ€™ ื›ืœ ื”ื ืฉืืจ ื‘ืฆื™ื•ืŸ ื•ื‘ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื ืื•ืชื ืืฉืจ ืœื ื›ืจืขื• ืœื‘ืขืœ ื”ืžื™ื ื•ืช ื•ื”ื›ืคื™ืจื” ืจโ€ืœ, ื”ืฉื™โ€ืช ื™ื”ื™โ€™ ื‘ืขื–ืจื ื•ื™ืฆื™ืœื ืžื›ืœ ื”ืงืžื™ื ืขืœื™ื”ื, ื•ื™ื—ื–ืงื ื•ื™ืืžืฆื ื›ื™ ื™ืชืŸ ืืช ืจื•ื—ื• ื‘ื”ื, ื‘ืฉื•ื‘ื• ืืช ืฉื‘ื•ืชื ืœืขื™ื ื™ื”ื, ืœืจืื•ืช ื‘ืฉืžื—ืชืŸ ืฉืœ ื›ืœ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืื—ื™ื”ื.

    ืโ€ื“ ื”ื›ื•โ€ื— ื”ืžืฆืคื” ืœืจื—ืžื™ ืฉืžื™ื, ืœื”ืชื”ืœืš ืœืคื ื™ ื”โ€™ ื‘ืืจืฆื•ืช ื”ื—ื™ื™ื, ืœื”ืื™ืจ ืขื™ื ื™ื, ื‘ืชื•ืจืช ืืœืงื™ื ื—ื™ื™ื, ื•ื ื–ื›ื” ื‘ืžื”ืจื” ืœืจืื•ืช ื‘ืฉืžื—ืช ืฆื™ื•ืŸ ื•ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื

    ื”ืงโ€™ ื™ื•ืืœ ื˜ื™ื™ื˜ืœื‘ื•ื™ื

    ujm
    Participant

    “I would cool it a bit on that โ€œfar, far betterโ€ stuff. The Muslims in the Middle Ages were in fact far better than the Christians, but they went through centuries of decline and radicalization, way before Zionism, and the Christians went through the Renaissance and Enlightenment which weakened the power of the Church. By the time Europe had come up with new secular โ€œreasonsโ€ to be antisemitic, the Muslims had caught up with or surpassed them.

    Yaakov:

    Tach V’tat, the Pograms, the Holocaust and many other incidents were after “the Renaissance and Enlightenment”. Yes, absulutely, even after the Renaissance and Enlightenment (until the Baflour Declaration made under Zionist pressure) Jews living under Muslim rule had it โ€œfar, far betterโ€ than the Jews living in Europe or under Christian rule.

    Rav Shach was not speaking theoretically at all. He answered real Sheilos both during the Camp David Accords and the Oslo Accords. Do you seriously think Rav Shach held it would be OK to surrender Israeli sovereignty ENTIRELY to the Arabs? Or are you again playing your game of moving the goal posts?”

    Yes, absulutely, as HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ztโ€l said, anything that results in peace is worth surrendering Israeli land for. Even the entire State, if that would result in greater peace. HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ztโ€l’s main point is peace is more important than land. Even giving up sovereignty of ALL the land.

    ujm
    Participant

    “He wasnโ€™t speaking theoretically. He was asked by the Chareidi politicians whether to vote in favor of the โ€œOslo Agreementโ€. He never for a second suggested the State of Israel surrender its entire sovereignty to the Arabs or anyone else, which is what you are suggesting. He also qualified his psak, as you said โ€œIF in fact surrendering land to the Arabs would result in peace.โ€ Thatโ€™s a really big IF, donโ€™t you think so?”

    Shimon:

    HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ztโ€l point is the same if surrendering the entire State would result in peace, HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ztโ€l psak is then it is obligatory to surrender the entire State.

    Yes, absolutely, as I said earlier, HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ztโ€l said if it results in peace.

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2479902
    ujm
    Participant

    qwerty: The entire MO movement is misguided; and that’s being very charitable.

    The modus operandi of MO is to water down Judaism to its lowest common denominator to make it palatable and acceptable to anyone.

    qwerty, if Rabbi Schachter or Rabbi Willig ever said the State and Zionism was an error or that women should be strongly encouraged to not have a career and be stay at home or that women should not be learning Torah Shebal Peh or that people should not be going to universities these days due to the rampant apikorsus and pritzus or that young men should be strongly encouraged to go to Kollel or that everyone is required to have a strong filter on any Internet connection or that mixed seating at weddings are not permitted, they’d be run out of town by the MO crowd faster than you can say goodbye and be out of their job. They know where their bread is buttered and most toe the line.

    Just a couple of weeks ago Rabbi Schachter publicly apologized for a letter he wrote to a judge encouraging that a Jewish prisoner be released. Nothing changed between the time he wrote the letter until he apologized other than the MO crowd got angry at him for writing it.

    in reply to: EST mistake #2479746
    ujm
    Participant

    Please repost it again. It may have gotten stuck in a spam filter.

    in reply to: Letter From Bereaved Families #2479736
    ujm
    Participant

    Yaakov Yosef: It is mandatory that every Torah Jew to make a ืžึฐื—ึธืึธื” against an attack on Bnei Torah, as the above signatories publicly committed in this letter.

    in reply to: Are there any limits actually enforced by the moderators? #2479719
    ujm
    Participant

    somejewiknow: In addition to what you pointed out, the Zionists collaborated and worked with the actual Nazis during the Holocaust to achieve their mutual goals.

    The most infamous, but far from only, example is the Kapo Rudolf Kastner working hand in hand for years with Nazi Adolf Eichmann ym”s. Kastner literally worked in Eichmann’s office for years and they met and worked together for years.

    ujm
    Participant

    Yaakov Yosef: No doubt we suffered in Golus *everywhere* we lived and suffered tragedies at the hands of the local Goyim regardless of location.

    That being said, what I earlier stated that prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims is absolutely 100% undisputable fact.

    ujm
    Participant

    dbrim: Zionism started long before 1948. Chevron occured *after* the advent of Zionism.

    ujm
    Participant

    Yaakov Yosef/Yankel:

    We are following in the footsteps of HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt”l, who also spoke theoretically when he paskened that it is absolutely worthwhile and even obligatory for the State of Isrel to surrender land to the Arabs for peace, if in fact surrendering land to the Arabs would result in peace.

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2479619
    ujm
    Participant

    mdd: I know firsthand what you erroneously think you know, but are mistaken based on second or thirdhand misinformation.

    in reply to: The Fourth Reich of “Israel” #2479548
    ujm
    Participant
    in reply to: The Fourth Reich of “Israel” #2479445
    ujm
    Participant
    in reply to: The Fourth Reich of “Israel” #2479418
    ujm
    Participant
    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2479260
    ujm
    Participant

    qwerty: They’re personally frum in their own lives but they’re misguided in how they lead their followers.

    in reply to: The Fourth Reich of “Israel” #2479256
    ujm
    Participant
    ujm
    Participant

    dbrim: The Chevron massacre was a direct result of Zionism. Prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims.

    in reply to: Letter From Bereaved Families #2479019
    ujm
    Participant

    These signatories and their so-called letter are utter fools. A bunch of am haaratzim.

    If they weren’t Jewish they could credibly be charged with antisemitism.

    in reply to: Proposed Solution to the Arab-Zionist Conflict: Non-Denominational State #2478585
    ujm
    Participant

    Yankel: You still failed to answer the hypothetical question directly. If it was absolutely established — even according to YOUR satisfaction and the satisfaction of EVERYONE — that a non-denomination/non-ethnic/neutral State in the Holy Land would be absolutely safer for Jews and less deadly for Jews than the continuing existance of the State of Israel, would you then agree in that very specific circumstance and scenario that the State of Israel should be abolished and replaced with a democratic non-denomination/non-ethnic/neutral State?

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2478586
    ujm
    Participant

    Agudas Yisroel was founded jointly by Rav Chaim Brisker, the Gerrer Rebbe, the Chofetz Chaim, the Belzer Rebbe, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski, the Belzer Rebbe, Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, Rav Moshe Greenwald (the Arugas HaBosem), the Czortkow Rebbe, Rav Itzele Rabinowitz of Ponevezh, and even the Munkatcher Rebbe(!! though the Munkatcher later withdrew).

    You couldn’t get a better full fledged alliance between the greatest of the greatest from both the Litvishe and Chasidishe velts.

    in reply to: The Ba’al Shem Tov Today #2478584
    ujm
    Participant

    mdd: False. The Beis Haleivi was the Rov is Slutsk and he absolutely never prevented that they be buried in the regular Jewish cemetery in Slutsk, where he was the authority. The only thing he didn’t do was use Chasidishe shechita. Nothing more or less.

    Ishpurim: You have machlokes rabbonim within every group. Whether the Litvish Ponovezh, the Sefardim, the Chasidim, R’ Yaakov Emden and R’ Yonasan Eibshitz, the Rambam and his opponents. etc. It doesn’t detract from the greatness of all sides.

    Of course there are exceptions such as Reform, Karaites, MO, Conservative, Zionism etc.

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