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whitecar: My response answered your question precisely.
Rocky:
Israel is not currently a theocracy in which we will be able to create laws based on pesukim or statements of chazal.
Which is wrong. It should be a Jewish theocracy. We don’t dismiss the wrongdoings against Jews by Czarist Russia or the Soviet Union because it isn’t a theocracy or a Jewish state. Neither should we dismiss the wrongdoings of the non-Jewish zionist entity simply because it isn’t a theocracy.
1) The country needs an army to exist.
Chareidim didn’t ask for this country. We lived in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists and before their state. The zionists created this disaster of a state that now has been under constant unending attacks for 75+ years. They need to deal with the mess they made.
2) The country is made up of a majority of people who either do not view Torah learning as a valid form of protecting the country
And they are dead wrong. There is no reason to change our position and the truth simply because the majority of people have a wrongheaded and incorrect view.
3) The current concept of exemption for full-time learners (i.e the status quo) was created as half-hearted concession at a time when the situation was totally different than today (400 vs 66,000)
There’s no reason to reduce what so-called “concession”; indeed, there’s every reason to increase and enlarge than “concession”.
4) There is no way of knowing numbers, but there are many chareidim who are gaming the system and not really learning full time but still take advantage of exemptions
Baruch Hashem for that. No Chareidi should be in the army. Even if they are a full time baal haboss working full-time. Let them find every loophole that works, even not as designed, to avoid an army full of pritzus.
5) There are many in the general Israeli population who have grown angrier and angrier at the Chareidi population because of issues 2,3 & 4 and also because of the money given to yeshivas. The war has exacerbated this anger and the PR response from the charedim has not helped.
5) There are many in the Chareidi population who have grown angrier and angrier at the Chiloni population because of the answers given to issues 2,3 & 4 and also because of the money given to Israeli universities and sports leagues. The Chiloni hate-mongering has exacerbated this anger and the PR response from the Chilonim has not helped.
Refusing to negotiate in any way will only last for a short time.
There’s nothing to negotiate. If they want to impose a non-negotiated draft against Bnei Yeshiva, they should start building new prisons to house tens of thousands of Yeshivaleit who will become draft-dodgers who will choose prison over the zionist army.
if that means cutting short the vacation time (which is much longer than the rest of the working population), might be a good start.
Sure. Cut back vacation time of soldiers.
Even a well placed “thank you” would go a long way
The Bnei Torah have long been waiting for that “thank you” from the chilonim. It would, indeed, be a good start.
Mnay within this same majority are resentful of the chareidim
A majority of the world is antisemitic; are you suggesting we accommodate their antisemitism since they are a majority? A plurality of the world is Christian; are you suggesting Yidden accommodate Christian minhagim?
Why so long?? I expect Moshiach to be here in three days.
“UJM-I think you are confusing the issues. Your point about effort is true but only in regards to heavenly reward.”
Rocky: What basis do you have to say it is only applicable regarding “heavenly reward” and that it is inapplicable otherwise? Where do you see such a differentiation in the seforim hakedoshim? Please provide such sources.
In New York, I would say 90% of the Matzahs are whole.
It’s probably the interstate (or international) shipping.
The fact that this thread exists gives the so-called NK a victory. Every time YWN and others run a story, they notch another victory.
AAQ: I don’t know who he is or, better, who he is to disagree with Chazal. And whether he “had a different opinion” or not, no one else is subject to follow his “different opinion”.
I am not focusing on community support; in fact I made no mention or reference to it. explicit or implicit, in my earlier comments. But since you raised it now, there’s no reason I see why the community might choose to not support both the hypothetical aforementioned masmidim I described.
Regarding army service or kollel service, which in your eyes you disingenuously equate, and in fact explicitly refer to above, as simply “not working”, absolutely. Chazal are abundantly clear that in regards to Limud Torah effort is all that counts. Ben Torah #1, who as described above, spends his whole day learning and it takes him one full month to master one pasuk in Bereishis puts in 9 hours a day swaeting over his Chumash, every day, until he finally finishes one pasuk after a month. Compared to Ben Torah #2, who masters a new Mesechta with Rashi, Tosfos and all the Meforshim every month, but let’s say he “only” learns 5 hours a day, and for him its all a breeze as Shas and Meforshim come easily to him even without much effort, so he takes some extra coffee breaks and shmoozes more than Ben Torah #1 (the one who does a pasuk a month). Then Ben Torah #1 is much more worthy than Ben Torah #2 (with his mastering a new mesechta each month) and Ben Torah #1 is most definitely more worthy (than Ben Torah #2) to be in the Beis Medrash full time each day, with no army service, or as you would put it “not working”, and Ben Torah #1 is doing far more to protect every Jew in Eretz Yisroel (and elsewhere) than Ben Torah #2 (who is also doing a lot for Klal Yisroel.)
If I could only support one of the above, my check will definitely be going to Ben Torah #1. And if I could only choose one whose learning will be a Zchus for my family’s safety, it would also be Ben Torah #1.
AAQ: I don’t know who he is or, better, who he is to disagree with Chazal. And whether he “had a different opinion” or not, no one else is subject to follow his “different opinion”.
I am not focusing on community support; in fact I made no mention or reference to it. explicit or implicit, in my earlier comments. But since you raised it now, there’s no reason I see why the community might choose to not support both the hypothetical aforementioned masmidim I described.
Regarding army service or kollel service, which in your eyes you disingenuously equate, and in fact explicitly refer to above, as simply “not working”, absolutely. Chazal are abundantly clear that in regards to Limud Torah effort is all that counts. Ben Torah #1, who as described above, spends his whole day learning and it takes him one full month to master one pasuk in Bereishis puts in 9 hours a day swaeting over his Chumash, every day, until he finally finishes one pasuk after a month. Compared to Ben Torah #2, who masters a new Mesechta with Rashi, Tosfos and all the Meforshim every month, but let’s say he “only” learns 5 hours a day, and for him its all a breeze as Shas and Meforshim come easily to him even without much effort, so he takes some extra coffee breaks and shmoozes more than Ben Torah #1 (the one who does a pasuk a month). Then Ben Torah #1 is much more worthy than Ben Torah #2 (with his mastering a new mesechta each month) and Ben Torah #1 is most definitely more worthy (than Ben Torah #2) to be in the Beis Medrash full time each day, with no army service, or as you would put it “not working”, and Ben Torah #1 is doing far more to protect every Jew in Eretz Yisroel (and elsewhere) than Ben Torah #2 (who is also doing a lot for Klal Yisroel.)
If I could only support one of the above, my check will definitely be going to Ben Torah #1. And if I could only choose one whose learning will be a Zchus for my family’s safety, it would also be Ben Torah #1.
Chag Sameach!
AAQ; Limud Torah isn’t limited to abilities. A masmid who spends his whole day learning, every day, and it takes him one full month to master one pasuk in Bereishis — even before getting to Rashi — is just as entitled to dedicate his life to full time Limud Torah as the next masmid who masters a new Mesechta — with Rashi, Tosfos and all the Meforshim — every month.
And both the aforementioned masmidim ‘s Limud Torah are equally effective at protecting every Jew across the world from any harm.
Mr. Weissman isn’t the smartest cookie on the block. Years ago he used to (infrequently) post here in the coffee room the same narishkeit he posts to his blog.
Avira, in fairness, I know of some very big Rebbes/Tazadikim who made their minyan (i.e. at least 9 people besides themselves) very much outside the normative zmanim.
Dofi: We have just as much right to being disgusted at soldiers for taking a few weeks off duty, as they are disgusted at Bnei Torah leaving Yeshiva for a few weeks bein hazmanim — when the Bnei Torah are anyways still learning Torah even outside the Yeshiva.
But in reality the chilonim are disguised at Bnei Torah for being *in* Yeshiva; not at them taking a few weeks *off*. They demand Bnei Torah leave the Yeshiva altogether to join the zionist army whose reputation throughout the world is of its mixed gender immorality and carnal depravity.
Dofi: According to you, the Chareidim who are dedicated their entire lives, morning, noon and nights learning Torah Hakedosha every day, to defend Jews against bloodthirsty terrorists have no right to be critical of the chilonim who are not doing so. They should somehow realize that their efforts are really accomplishing nothing and only the chilonim’s army service is worth anything, despite their taking time off duty and going on furlough.
Rocky: Please correct me if I am wrong but you seem to imply that —
1) Limud Torah is just a silly invention like studying Egyptology created by the Chareidim to dodge the draft and is not really necessary at all since the people who are in the army are all the protection we need
2) The Chilonim owe zero hakoras hatov to those who dedicate their lives to Limud Torah because they had no business becoming full time masmidim anyways (refer to point #1)
3) Having a full Kollel is not really a form of hishtadlus or at best it is overkill. After all who needs more than one security guard to protect a bank vault or more than one person to study Egyptology?
4) Jews learning in Kollel is just some 20th-century Chareidi creation. We do not see anywhere in Jewish history that Jews learn Torah so much. And if they did they were bad people who should have been in the Czar’s Army or whichever Army that was protecting the country they were living in.
“The existence of Eretz Yisroel is a daily neis.”
Eretz Yisroel has existed, continuously non-stop, for the last 5,784 years.
“The last 75 years have seen less Jews killed than any other time in history since the first Beis Hamikdosh.”
In chutz la’aretz that’s true. But in Eretz Yisroel more Jews have been killed in the last 75 years than in any time in history since the Churban Bayis Sheini.
“More Torah and yeshivos than ever before.”
This is also true in chutz la’aretz. However much exists in Eretz Yisroel is zero thanks to the zionist anti-Torah government. Orthodox Jews in Israel pay more money to the State in taxes than they receive in Yeshiva funding. The State gives far far more funding, both in real dollars and in percentages, to secular universities than to Yeshivos. The Yeshiva system we do have in Eretz Yisroel (as well as in chutz la’aretz) is exclusively because of the efforts of Gedolei Yisroel.
Rocky: Your logic highlights one major flaw in the message put out by the chiloni world. Just because you have a certain belief and appreciation of the military, having an elitist and disconnected mentality will not draw the other person closer to your way of thinking. Your argument goes something like
“Why don’t the Chareidim appreciate our military? Don’t they know that military protects the Jews?!
No, they don’t. They value enlisting in the military as much as a security guard protecting the bank vault.HaLeiVi and all: You do agree, don’t you, that it was a Neis that America defeated Iraq twice, first in the Persian Gulf War and then again in the Iraq War in 2003, and that it was a Neis that America won the Korean War (stopping the North from taking the South) and Panama (Operation Just Cause) were all great Nissim.
Right?
DaMoshe: I asked two people who were at that Agudah convention. Both said it is a complete bubbe maaisa. One of them actually started laughing when told this “story”.
Sechel: What intention? He doesn’t know what a mitzvah even is and his knowledge of Tefilin is what he saw on television.
Half of those saying they’re Jewish aren’t even Jewish.
“Wouldn’t that also send a message to the chilonim that the Bnei Yeshivos are taking this war (and sharing the burden) seriously?”
Let the chilonim first send a message to the Torah community that they are taking this war seriously and sharing the burden by spending some time in the Beis Medrash.
Then we can talk.
AAQ: Why do you think that citing an open Chazal in the Gemorah is “shtuyos”? Just because you disagree with that Chazal doesn’t make is shtuyos.
Did any of the tziyonim here yet acknowledge that they were peddling a bubble maaisa about Rav Yaakov saying at the Agudah convention that he changed his mind from supporting the Satmar Rebbe’s view to opposing it in response to what the “askan” Itchie Meyer Levin said?
AAQ: The Gemorah says one of the reasons was because the woman went outside non-tzniusdik.
How is putting Tefilin on random people in the streets of St. Louis, New Orleans, Winnipeg, Albuquerque or even Manhattan, who may possibly be Jewish, “kiruv”?
These random folks on the street are doing it for the “experience” or fun, with no intention of doing anything more in the future.
Big deal. Trump is worth multi-billions more today, as a result of Truth Social, than the multi-billions he was worth before Truth Social.
Reb Yaakov held very highly of the views of the Satmar Rebbe.
Don’t forget that it was the Zionists who *lost* Jewish access to the Kosel in 1948. Until 1948 Yidden were able to go to the Kosel.
Simcha: Just as you can’t force secular soldiers to spend 1% of their waking time, instead of 0%, in a Beis Medrash, you can’t force those that spend 90% of their waking hours in the Beis Medrash to spend 95% of their time there.
The CIA predicted the Israeli victory in ’67 before the war started, almost to a tee how it played out.
mdd: The Romans managed to defeat us, destroy the Beis Hamokdash and build great bridges, roads and other infrastructure throughout their empire, making Rome the world power. Was that, too, siyata dishmaya on their part?
Keep in mind that during the Gulf War, when Iraq’s Saddam Hussein was shooting scud missiles into Israel, Israel did not retaliate at all.
Why aren’t you at least as worried, and as demanding, that all Israeli soldiers have their leave curtailed and, instead, all soldiers be mandated to spend one full week in the Beis Medrash — a place most of them never yet entered in their life.
HaLeiVi: It sounds like you are alluding to what Chazal say in the Gemorah regarding the birth of a boy versus the birth of a girl.
AAQ: King Henry VII rightfully executed two adulterous wives.
AAQ: The “key decision makers” in the Israeli regime are well known for making terrible choices. Not particularly the current regime only, but virtually all past Israeli regimes as well.
There’s absolutely nothing jaw dropping whatsoever in that quote from Rav Miller. Yes, Rav Miller would suggest a benign King, preferably an Oheiv Yisroel, such as King Fredrick II of Prussia, King Mohammed VI of Morocco, Emperor Franz Jozef of Austria-Hungary, King Cyrus of Persia, King Christian X of Denmark, King Gustav III of Sweden, etc.
AAQ: The glitches are far more than occasional. Every day innocent people are convicted and guilty people are acquitted.
coffee addict: Thank you.
Avira: I’m not c”v looking for any such. I think my point is a very good one.
Jackk: Thank you for, again, quoting HaGaon HaRav Avigdor Miller zt”l. It’s always a pleasure reading and recounting his holy Torah thoughts. Since you brought Rav Miller up, it is worthwhile reiterating how often Rav Miller implored everyone to vote Republican and vote conservative, because he repeatedly explained how evil the liberals are and how destructive, anti-American and anti G-d the Democrats are. Rav Miller zt”l encouraged people to write to President Nixon expressing the Jewish People’s support for him and explained how Democrat McGovern and the entirety of the Democrat Party was out to spread immorality and destroy anything good. He strongly and publicly held this position from, at least, the 1960s through his petira in 2001.
The OP is a less than zero to publicly berate the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos and to give them instructions on how to run their Yeshivos. Does he seriously think the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos didn’t ever think of his brainstorm?
It would have been half an issue if he suggested this to the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos privately; but who the blazes does he think he is to give a public reprimand or even public collective advice to them on how to conduct their Yeshivos?
Now let’s have the Zionist army reduce time off for all soldiers, secular or not, and have them all spend 20% of their off time in a Yeshiva. Rather than trying to change the less than 10% of the people on how much learning they need to increase, when they’re already dedicating their lives for years of dedicated full time Limud Torah, work on the over 90% who spend zero time on Limud Torah to give an hour a day or even two weeks a year dedicated to Torah.
Good riddance to a filthy murderer. Didn’t come soon enough.
akuperma: Do you turn on a television before Shabbos and leave it on the whole Shabbos so you can watch the game and whatever else interesting is running on Saturday.
Doing so is far far far “less problematic than” riding in self-driving cars on Shabbos.
The Reform started out by making changes that were technically not a clearcut or outright violation of halacha.
Jackk: Everyone agrees, including the hard left and including the leftist New York Times, that the New York prosecution rests on a novel legal theory that was never prosecuted before and is a very weak prosecution.
It is clear without doubt that this is a political persecution of the prosecutor’s political opponent; the kind of thing more commonly found in Venezuala, Russia and Iran.
huju: “That plainly implies that his net worth is less than those judgments, which likewise implies that he is not a billionaire.”
False.
The majority of multi-billionaire Donald Trump’s net worth is tied into non-liquid assets, namely real estate.
There’s no doubt whatsoever that Trump is a multi-billionaire and one of the richest men in the world.