ujm

SR (OP): If you’re embarrassed to be a Jew, just come right out and say so. No need to itemize every part of being Jewish that you’re embarrassed about.

In prewar Europe there were many towns that were majority Jewish. And many Goyim there spoke Yiddish.

Yet the media buried anything negative of their hero JFK, who in fact was a demagogue and antisemite.

Ashifromrockland: Was JFK confronted about his infidelity?

akuperma: TheChesedFund. (Or GoFundMe.)

Because when the Yevonim came to find Yidden to see if they were illegally learning Torah, the Yidden quickly hid their Seforim and took out their dreidels, to make believe they were just playing and not learning Torah.

People have gone very upscale across almost all our communities over the last 15-20 years. This has affected everything. Year round.

The standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. “Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal etc.” – Bread, salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah. The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis (working man) works three hours a day and learns eight hours a day.

The Rama 246:4 rules explicitly that it is absolutely prohibited according to Halachah to engage in a curriculum of secular studies. To read secular studies now and then, is permitted, he says. The source of the Rama is the Yerushalmi Sanhedrin.

It has been suggested the difference between a curriculum and just a glance, is that this prohibition is not due to Bitul Torah but rather a Bizayon HaTorah, by establishing studies in areas other than Torah, it shows that you believe they have some value that would justify learning them when you could have been learning Torah.

Rav Shimon Schwab ZT’L sought the Torah opinions of two great authorities, Rav Boruch Ber Liebowitz ZT’L and Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT’L, regarding college education. Their responses were as follows:

Conclusion of Birkas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27 p.42):

“What emerges is (a) that according to the Torah the obligation of Banim Ubeni Banim means you must make your children into Geonei and Chachmei Torah – and not merely to prepare them for life as a Jew. But rather, you must teach them and get them to learn the entire Torah, and if chas v’sholom you do not, you violate the entire Mitzvah of learning Torah as per Banim Ubnei Banim.

(b) Universities and gymnasiums (i.e. secondary schools) are prohibited because of Apikursus [that they teach]. My Rebbi (i.e. Rav Chaim Soloveichik ZT’L) prohibited them even in war time, and even to save a life, for to avoid violating this, even a Jewish life is to be spent.

(c) To learn secular studies on a regular basis is prohibited, as per the Rama 246:4 …

Brothers, please do Teshuva while there is still time, for the enlightenment (Haskalah) has blinded our eyes and weakened us. For we have no benefit in this world at all – both spiritually and physically – except from Torah. All the strength of Klall Yisroel is from the Torah … we should do Tehsuva and repair the Batei Medrashos that have been broken by the Enlightenment.”

Kovetz Shiurim II:47:

Question: Under what circumstances is it permitted to learn secular studies?

Answer:

(a) If you must learn books that contain apikursus, it is prohibited … needless to say even to make money or to prevent a loss thereof.

(b) If you must sit in school with Goyim, and it causes someone to befriend the Goyim and their ways, it is prohibited as per the Lo Saseh of Hishomer Lecha etc. for the Torah commanded us to distance ourselves from the Goyim in every way…

(c) If the studies do not cause you to learn Apikursus or to befriend Goyim, and you learn secular studies in order to know a skill to make a living, it is permitted, and it is a Mitzvah. However, this is only in general. But if a person sees that his son wants to learn Torah and he is prepared to be a Gadol B’Torah, in such a case R. Nehuray said: “I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah.”…

(d) If you don’t need the studies for Parnasa, and you just want to be involved in them, there is reason to prohibit because of Bitul Torah, as per the Rama in YD 246, who writes that it is forbidden to learn secular studies on a regular basis….perhaps it is not due to Bitul Torah but rather it ia an affront to the honor of the Torah … someone who set out to learn secular subjects indicates that he believes that they have a purpose in and of themselves [besides for parnasa], and that is against the Torah’s opinion. [see above]…”

Reb Elchonon continues, saying that the confusion in Germany happened when people thought, mistakenly, that by Jews possessing secular knowledge the Goyim will hate them less. This caused a “negiyos” – a vested interest – that caused the German Jews to desire that their rabbis have a secular education as well.

Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L also denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title “The Counsel of the Wicked” (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There he reiterates that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah, we should not care so much about Cadillac’s (yes, this was said in the “olden days”), and that learning Torah is what we should be pursuing, not secular stuff. He says in America you do not need college to make a Parnassa, and we should be willing to live on little, not a lot, for the sake of Torah, and that R. Nehuray’s statement of abandoning all skills in favor of Torah applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.

There is a tape available in many Seforim stores called “The prohibition to learn in Colleges” (Yiddish), which contains addresses by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L condemning college.

Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it.

But it is definitely looked upon not as a l’chatchilah, but rather as something that is annoyingly necessary in the current environment.

Today, there are a small number of High Schools in America – particularly in Lakewood – that do not teach English. Also, many Yeshivos do try to reduce the amount of secular studies as much as possible, through knocking out the last semester of English, and a number of kids are leaving HS early to enter Bais Medrash.

Rav Chaim Segal ZT’L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT’L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon’s, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.

Is any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.

The Chasam Sofer in Parsha Beshalach states clearly that certain secular knowledge is useful for learning certain Torah topics, such as cow anatomy being useful for shechitah, and arithmetic for Eruvin and Sukkah. But that before we embark on obtaining secular knowledge – and of course that means only to the extent that it is useful for our Torah studies – we must first fill ourselves with Torah-only knowledge. After we are strong in Torah, only then can we move to acquire the useful secular knowledge that we need for our Torah studies.

He quotes the Rambam, who he describes as “the father of philosophy” in our religion, in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, stating that a person may not learn philosophy until after he has “filled his stomach” with Shas and Poskim, which are the things, and only the things, that bring us Olam Habah. Then he quotes the Rashba, saying that there is a cherem against learning any secular studies if you are under age 25! The he quotes the Gemora in Brachos “Keep your children away from science” (higayon, as some meforshim translate it), noting that the Gemora is directing its prohibition at “your children”, but not at the adults, for adults, who are already advanced in Torah knowledge, need some secular knowledge, such as cow biology (I keep emphasizing that so that we do not make the error of thinking that the secular knowledge that we need is a college education). But it is dangerous for us to pursue it until we are armed and ready with a Torah foundation. This is because someone with a Torah perspective looks at the value and culture of of secular studies differently than does someone ignorant of Torah. And we do want to get the proper perspective.

It’s kind of like firemen putting out a fire. They have to (a) dress in their heat-resistant protective outfits, and (b) run into the fire and put it out. But of course, they have to do it in the right order.

And that is indeed what it boils down to – do we value the Torah’s standards of education more than that of the secular world or vice versa? The choice is simple: All the secular “education” that you get will be useless to you in the next world. There, they will not ask you if you know how many US presidents were re-elected in history, or whether you are familiar with the policies of Chairman Mao, or if you know how to program a computer. They will bring a Sefer Torah scroll to you and ask “do you know what it says in here?” The more you know of that, the more you will be considered “educated”. The less you know, the more you will be considered ignorant. So the question is – do I want to be educated on this world or on the next?

And here we thought that a secular education is expensive! Its much more expensive than you think – you can acquire it only at the expense of your time and effort that you could have been putting toward becoming educated in Olam Habah.

Two things, though. First, the prohibition is only to learn secular studies as a regular curriculum. To read about them occasionally in your spare time is permitted.

Once in, never out. You are a lifetime member, like it or not.

Are you sure that your psychoanalysis is a 70% probability and not a 45% or 88% probability?

coffee: Christie is a social liberal. He should become a Democrat.

By ditching his hat, that heretofore society considered proper and essential.

“sending out flyers to the Agudah mailing list announcing the event and its importance”

That verbiage is not a request that anyone attend.

And even THAT was withdrawn and the rally denounced by the Gedolim.

Not one Godol is on the record as having endorsed attending.

And even the unsigned pareve letter regarding its importance, even before that was withdrawn, was not signed by name by any Rabbi.

Not even one of the Gedolim on the Moetzes is on the record supporting attendance at this secular rally.

In fact, there isn’t even one Godol anywhere, including outside the Moetzes, that supported it once it became known who the speakers were and what the program would be.

Even the few Rabbonim who approved the initial pareve letter from the Agudah saying it is okay to attend the Washington rally last week Tuesday, officially withdrew that permission to attend, once they learned what the rally was really all about.

They, too, then said it was forbidden to attend:

READ IT: Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a Responds To Massive Controversy Surrounding Pro-Israel March

.

Even the few Rabbonim who approved the initial pareve letter from the Agudah saying it is okay to attend the Washington rally last week Tuesday, officially withdrew that permission to attend, once they learned what the rally was really all about.

They, too, then said it was forbidden to attend:

READ IT: Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a Responds To Massive Controversy Surrounding Pro-Israel March

Zeff: What about the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolei Torah of Open Orthodox circles, are they inferior, or is it only the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolei Torah of Modern Orthodox circles that you are concerned with?

Do you insist that those on a higher spiritual plateau lower themselves to the standards of those who espouse ideals outside the acceptable Torah life demanded by Gedolei Yisroel?

Isn’t there an issur against listening to music before the Beis Hamikdash is rebuilt?

AAQ:/Dofi The original Aguda letter was NOT from the Moetzes. It was from the laymen/executive office of the Agudah. It was very pareve and didn’t tell anyone to go, just that it would be nice for a large turnout. It said they asked their Rabbonim, but didn’t specify which Rabbonim that was. Previously, that meant, in the singular, just the Novominsker, who was the Rosh Agudah, before he was niftar.)

I had one of the members of the Moetzes in my car on Tuesday and asked him. He told me that the decision was for people not to go. (I then asked him about the Agudah executive office letter, but I then realized he fell asleep by that time.)

AAQ: Which hat did you pull that out of? None of the Gedolim on the Moetzes expressed any support whatsoever to attend the rally. Please cite which ones, by name, you are alleging otherwise, along with producing any evidence you have of a signed letter to such effect.

Marxist: You can make the same point about the Orthodox, in general. 90% of American Jews are non-Orthodox.

And within Orthodoxy, the Chareidi oilam constitutes 66% of Orthodox Jews.

Herzog quoted a lot of passukim

He would help end Arab terror far more by starting to keep Shabbos than by quoting a lot of posukim.

UPDATED – ADDITIONAL GEDOLIM SIGN KOL KOREI: “Bnei Torah Should Not Attend Washington Rally”

I rest my case.

UPDATED – ADDITIONAL GEDOLIM SIGN KOL KOREI: “Bnei Torah Should Not Attend Washington Rally”

I rest my case.

What’s this emotional hangup about these useless posters? They accomplish nothing.

coffeeroomguy: The last Lubavitcher Rebbe didn’t call anyone freiacks… even if they were freiacks.