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Does anyone here think it isn’t worth the deal to get back the Jewish hostages?
Even the few Rabbonim who approved the initial pareve letter from the Agudah saying it is okay to attend the Washington rally last week Tuesday, officially withdrew that permission to attend, once they learned what the rally was really all about.
They, too, then said it was forbidden to attend:
READ IT: Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a Responds To Massive Controversy Surrounding Pro-Israel March
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Even the few Rabbonim who approved the initial pareve letter from the Agudah saying it is okay to attend the Washington rally last week Tuesday, officially withdrew that permission to attend, once they learned what the rally was really all about.
They, too, then said it was forbidden to attend:
READ IT: Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a Responds To Massive Controversy Surrounding Pro-Israel March
Even the few Rabbonim who approved the initial pareve letter from the Agudah saying it is okay to attend the Washington rally last week Tuesday, officially withdrew that permission to attend, once they learned what the rally was really all about.
They, too, then said it was forbidden to attend:
READ IT: Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a Responds To Massive Controversy Surrounding Pro-Israel March
Menachem Shmei: Thank you for your comment. It is very insightful.
Zeff: What about the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolei Torah of Open Orthodox circles, are they inferior, or is it only the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolei Torah of Modern Orthodox circles that you are concerned with?
Do you insist that those on a higher spiritual plateau lower themselves to the standards of those who espouse ideals outside the acceptable Torah life demanded by Gedolei Yisroel?
Why has the Baltimore MO community dwindled? Where did they go to?
Isn’t there an issur against listening to music before the Beis Hamikdash is rebuilt?
Dofi: Here’s the letter you asked me for:
UPDATED – ADDITIONAL GEDOLIM SIGN KOL KOREI: “Bnei Torah Should Not Attend Washington Rally”
Names and signatures are on it, as per your request.
AAQ:/Dofi The original Aguda letter was NOT from the Moetzes. It was from the laymen/executive office of the Agudah. It was very pareve and didn’t tell anyone to go, just that it would be nice for a large turnout. It said they asked their Rabbonim, but didn’t specify which Rabbonim that was. Previously, that meant, in the singular, just the Novominsker, who was the Rosh Agudah, before he was niftar.)
I had one of the members of the Moetzes in my car on Tuesday and asked him. He told me that the decision was for people not to go. (I then asked him about the Agudah executive office letter, but I then realized he fell asleep by that time.)
290,000 is another figure pulled out of a hat. Where did it come from? Not from the DC police. It’s about as accurate as Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan’s so-called “Million Man March”, also in Washington, DC, really had a million million blacks attending.
AAQ: Which hat did you pull that out of? None of the Gedolim on the Moetzes expressed any support whatsoever to attend the rally. Please cite which ones, by name, you are alleging otherwise, along with producing any evidence you have of a signed letter to such effect.
Marxist: You can make the same point about the Orthodox, in general. 90% of American Jews are non-Orthodox.
And within Orthodoxy, the Chareidi oilam constitutes 66% of Orthodox Jews.
user: Which part of what the Gedolim wrote in their above signed letter are you having difficulty understanding?
In particular, to quote the Gedolim’s own words:
“its organizers and participants are not משלומי אמוני ישראל. And as is known, the opinion of our Rabbanim, z’tl whose mesorah we hold, warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah and Mesorah. And especially after the speakers’ schedule of the rally was published, and it is known to all that the main speakers are a mixture of people whose entire essence is the opposite of Torah and yirah and tzninus, r’l. Since then, the matter is simple – we must distance ourselves from them and the masses.”
How many negative effect on Klal Yisroel can you count in just this small quoted portion of their letter? If your comprehension is poor, I’ll be more than glad to help you along. Some, but not limited to, of the negative effects cited by the Gedolim are:
1. Its organizers and participants are not משלומי אמוני ישראל.
2. Our Rabbanim, z’tl whose mesorah we hold, warned us from joining with religious streams who are far from the Derech HaTorah.
3. The main speakers are a mixture of people whose entire essence is the opposite of Torah and yirah and tzninus, r’l.
4. Since then, the matter is simple – we must distance ourselves from them and the masses.
Is that enough negative effects for Klal Yisroel for you, or do you need more?
user: Right, they said much worse and stronger than I. The Gedolim wrote it would have a negative effect on Klal Yisroel, not just that it wouldn’t have a positive effect.
Herzog quoted a lot of passukim
He would help end Arab terror far more by starting to keep Shabbos than by quoting a lot of posukim.
Amil: No real Beis Yaakov is sending their girls.
What’s this emotional hangup about these useless posters? They accomplish nothing.
SR: Carter is an antisemite and a rasha. But your history of the $2 bill is completely inaccurate. It long predates Carter’s presidency, which he took office of in 1977.
coffeeroomguy: The last Lubavitcher Rebbe didn’t call anyone freiacks… even if they were freiacks.
It is important to note that so far, despite all the commentary, not one person, not one, has yet explained how this rally will save even one Jewish life.
Will Hamas stop their terrorism if they see such a big rally?
If instead of 25,000 people showing up to this rally, 35,000 people show up, will a second Jewish life somehow be saved? How will a bigger rally save more lives than a smaller rally? Let alone, how will any rally save even one life.
The real question is only why aren’t all those people planning to go to the Washington rally instead go to the Beis Medrash for six hours (the travel time plus rally time they’d otherwise spend).
Going to the Beis Medrash will have positive effects for Klal Yisroel in the war. Going to the rally will not.
DaMoshe, you call anyone who disagrees with your far left-wing Modern Orthodox “religious” views a sonei Yisroel. The closest “shitta” you adhere to is your fellow LWMO ideologe Avi Weiss.
DaMoshe: I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that you’d have the audacity and azus to call HaGaon HaRav Yitzchok Sorotzkin shlita”a, Rosh Yeshivas Telz and Chaver Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah a “sonei Yisroel” for declaring that this political march and rally coming up in Washington, DC, organized by secular Jews, is counterproductive, will hurt us Yidden and cause further antisemitism and violence against Jews, and that no Yiddish should c”v attend the rally.
Where is your Derech Eretz for such a Godol HaDor?
Jack: Please share with me what Obama said, that triggered this outrage.
It’s a waste of time.
I didn’t read exactly what Obama said, but Alan Dershowitz condemned Obama this week as a terror supporter.
Do the kinderlach need lunch?
The OP is repeating what HaGaon HaRav Avigdor Miller zt’l said about this.
akuperma: The WSJ is just as left-wing as the rest of Big Media. Certainly on their news pages. The only exception is their editorial/OpEd pages, which are not leftist.
Reb Eliezer: Eim HaBanim Semecha doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though R. Teichtel was a talmid chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.
Eim HaBanim Semecha is not taken seriously outside of Zionist circles, because it is mostly emotional sermons and discourses (droshos), rather than a serious Halachic analysis. It’s an emotional outcry in response to the holocaust (he dates the introduction Parshas Tetzaveh 1943) and its clear that he was talking out of desperation for finding a safe haven for Jews, which many felt Eretz Yisroel would be. He confuses his personal feelings with Halachic methodology, Rebbishe vertlach with Halachic rulings, and so is not at all compelling.
Example: On page 147 he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like R. Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”
Now, of course, even in the days of Rav Yonason (about 250 years ago) Jews were persecuted, and all throughout Golus they were, too. Yet R. Teichtel decided that he knows how to quantify the measure of suffering that Jews are expected to tolerate in Golus, and what on the other hand is a “sign from Hashem” for them to return. He decided that he can read Hashem’s signs and that this, for sure, is what our suffering means. Where did he get this scale? Nowhere. He decided it on his own. He and only he decided that this “sign from Hashem” tells us that the Golus is over. Well, he can read whatever he wants into “signs from Hashem,” but this “sign from Hashem” has no Rashi or Tosfos to tell us how to interpret it. Nor did Hashem tell him how to read history, nor does he have any sources that his is the proper reading. Since when do we pasken sheailos based on personal feelings? It’s a nice sermon, but Halachicly it means nothing. Yet to him, not only is it Halachicly binding on everyone, but it “there is no longer any room for doubt”.
This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny.
The following is R. Teichtel’s explanation of why The Minchas Elozor was against “Yishuv HaAretz”:
First, he tries to establish that whether the redemption will come miraculously or slowly and naturally depends on whether Moshiach’s coming will be because we “deserve it” (“zachah”) – in which case it will be miraculous, or because Hashem sent it to us despite our not deserving it, in which case it will be natural. Then he says, quote:
“And with this we have an open response to the entire objection of our master and rebbi, the holy scholar, the Minchas Elozor ZT”L of Munkatch, regarding being involved with building the land. For I myself was one of his group, and I knew that his entire objection was base don the fact that the redemption is going to come miraculously, not naturally … But his honor remains intact, for he on his high level believed that the entire world is on the high level where they deserve Moshiach, like he was. But the truth is that this last generation, unfortunately, not deserving of Moshiach, and therefore the redemption will come couched in natural methods.” – Aim Habanim Semechah p.98
In other words, the Minchas Elozor mistakenly and naively thought the whole world was Tzadikim like he was, but in reality he didn’t understand that the world doesn’t really deserve Moshiach. Now never mind how R. Teichtel decided he can judge the world and decide whether they deserve Moshiach or not; never mind that he has not one Halachic shred of evidence to back up this position of his; but to say that the Minchas Elozor naively looked at the whole world as much more righteous than they actually are, as deserving of redemption when in fact they don’t deserve it, is beyond ludicrous and for anyone who knows anything about the Minchas Elozor, totally dishonest. If there was one person in the past hundred years who we would say is not guilty of overrating the world, it could very well be the Minchas Elozor. If he’s not first on the list, he’s second.
R. Teichtel’s sefer comes without any Haskomos (approbations) form anybody. But he did want Haskomos, so what he did was he took Haskomos out of another sefer, and printed them in his sefer, saying that the Haskomos would certainly apply to his sefer too, since the two seforim generally say the same things. But none of the rabbis of his time wrote him a haskama.
Note: Eim HaBanim Semechah speaks basically about building the land. The topic of creating a sovereign state – which was the major objection to Zionism – is almost completely ignored. Perhaps this is what the Lubavitcher Rebbe meant (told to the author’s son, quoted in the introduction, p. 21 ) when he told the son of author to “publicize that your father was a G-d fearing Jew who was far away from Zionism”. I would think this is because in his sefer he never argues in favor of a Jewish State, but rather in favor of building up the land.
Doesn’t Bank Leumi have branches in both Manhattan and Brooklyn?
LerntminTayrah: “They were mehalel shabbos befarhesya. Their point is they are no longer yidden. As such they are no longer bechlal amisecha, even worse than secular Zionists who at least have the svara of tinokos shenishbu.”
I don’t know if what you claim about them is true. But even assuming it is, obviously you would say the same about OTD youth and other frum people who went OTD, that they’re not tinokos shenishbu, that they’re reshoim and they are no longer bechlal amisecha.
Correct? Or are you a hypocrite?
Yes, of course they have a point. The Ponovoze Rosh Yeshiva zt’l once said, when asked about the NK protesting outside against his position on interacting with the State, said that if the NK weren’t out there protesting he’d have to hire protesters to protest his position, because he said his position permitting the frum Yidden to interact and deal with and benefit from the State was a b’dieved position that was necessary bshach hadchak at the time. But that under normal circumstances the NK position was the Torah correct position under ideal circumstances. And even though he held that today under the current circumstances it was necessary for him to permit dealing with the zionists, it was necessary for the public to know that it wasn’t the pure Torah position without the shas hadchak. And thus it was necessary for it to be protested.
Idea: make a shidduch between guy in #1 with girl in #2.
Could be they’re both afraid of getting married.
Did you look into the Halacha whether it is permissible or not to move out of Eretz Yisroel?
More trouble today than the holocaust? Than the pogroms? Than Tach V’Tat? Than expulsions? Than blood libels? Than the Crusades?
And with the more learning today, do we have anywhere near as much as Yiras Shamayim as our grandfathers and grandmothers and great grandfathers and great great grandfathers etc. in Europe and the Middle East had? Do we have as much Emuna Peshuta as they had? Do we have as much Emunas Chachamim as they had?
coffeeroomguy/OP:
Meshimer is the exact filter that does precisely what you are asking for.