ubiquitin

Thanks Yekke2 your post (absurd as it was)cracked me up reading Comlink’s post about women becoming equal to men and then in the very next comment “and ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? a woman, who has pretty much zero ??? ????”

made for a funny juxtaposition

BTw are you serious? (Poe’s law)

scared.

Its not quite the same, but similar. At any rate are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Its more similar to naming a hospital Maimonidies

DY

Your last post, may have been the best thing I have read on this website. Yasher Koach

DY thanks

Avram

Sort of, though this case (as I understood it) was about a guy who wears a srugi not being allowed to daven for the amud period. Even with a hat or at by day with a Talis. Perhaps I misunderstood

DY ,Joseph and Avram

I’m curious what you would say if say in Teaneck there was a rule that a person wearing a shtreimel cant daven for the amud?

Stam

Continuation of #2 above.

In order to understand why the study you demand is impossible we need to discuss (briefly) an overview of study design.

you begin with a theory that you want to test, say Vaccines cause autism (or more accuratly are linked to autism) Or lets take a simple example you have a coin you suspect is an uneven coin.

You know want to design an experiment to determine if your coin is uneven (lets assume an even coin has a 50/50 shot of landing on heads) so you set up a “null hypothesis” That is that there is no difference between your suspicious coin and a regular coin. Our experiment will be designed to determine whether we should accept or reject the null hypothesis in favor of the “alternate hypothesis” which in this case would be that the coin is uneven.

Now obviously simply flipping the coin once and getting heads doesnt tell you to much. nor does flipping it twice even if both are heads, after all flipping an even coin twice would be expected to result in 2 heads 25% of the time This hardly proves the coin is uneven. Obviously you will have to flip your coin several times.

Now lets take it to the other extreme. Say you flip your coin 100 times and all 100 are heads. Is it impossible to have occurred by chance alone? Of course not, while admittedly suspicious it is POSSIBLE that you have an uneven coin and the unlikely occured. What to do with the hypothesis? To make it more complicated what if the split was 90 heads to 10 tails or 70 to 30 or 55 heads to 45 tails. Which of these splits are “statistically significant” proving that your coin is uneven and which are expected occurrence of chance?

To answer this question a “p value” is needed. The p value is a calculation of how likely the outcome is to occur based on chance alone. Generally a p value less than 0.05 or 5% is used. This means that in any significant study with a p value less than 5%, there is a less than 5% chance that the outcome occurred based on chance alone. By flipping a coin 100 times yielding 90 heads the p value is 0.0045 (I totally made this up, maybe charliehall can help if hes bored) this means that there is a 4.5% chance that the outcome occurred randomly which leads us to reject the null hypothesis and conclude that the coin is uneven.

So far so good?

Ok now on to your study

Owl

As A follow up to last set of “Can you explain” questions here is another:

Can you explain why in underdeveloped areas with an equal vaccination rate, the Autism rate is so much lower?

(To comlpicate it further, consider the same cant be said for the other can you explain items namely: Coputers, cellphones and internet i.e. Areas with a higher prevelance of Computers etc.. have an increased incidence of autism.)

Stam

1. I have, but I’d like to broaden further. Please provide a sugestion for me to read, and if I havent read it already I bl”n will. I provided you with SEVERAL studies that you requested. Have you read any of them?

2. The study you suggest is mathematicly impossible (as explained above). Please dont dodge the issue. I provided several studies that meet YOUR criteria regarding Autism. Can we agree on that? If not why not?

3. LOl! Thanks for raising my spirits. I showed examples of where you who claim ot have researche dthe subject are woefully ignorant about the aleph bais of evaluating a study. Your response was some vagaaries about “venturing to say…”

Thank you for leaving the labeling of infomed vs uninformes to me. I provided specefic areas where you are uninformed regarding matters you claim to have reasearched

4. I can not becasue of 4b. in my previous post

As pointed out Hashem doesnt have emoions. We attribute our emotions to Him in order to relate/understand. We percieve Hashem as being Angry etc. In which case I dont get the question if you percieve something coming from Hashem (and everything does) as being humurous then Hashem has a sense of Humor.

Heres a (not great) example. I’m sure all know the classic joke of the Reform Rabbi who goes golfing on Yom Kippur and gets a hole-in-one. The Malachim ask God How can you allow this when the Rabbi is desecrating the holiest day. God replies: Who can he tell.

Now whether or not the joke is funny, is it kefira? Since it is attribuing an emotion to H”KBH?

More to the point though. Suppose the story was real, namely the reform Rabbi is golfing on Y”K and gets a hole-in-one. The Rabbi “gets” the joke and is annoyed at his hole-in-one since he cant tell anybody. and views it that way as if Hashem is “playing a prank” on him. Is that view kefira?

Stam Big name or small name if your doctor tells you “I know nothig about health” Its time for a new doctor

“I said even though Wakefield is discredited,”

Um no! you said quote “”Just because he was SUPPOSEDLY discredited ” (emphasis added)

“the theory stands”

why? and on what?

“There are way too many unexplained diseases that vaccines can be the culprit”

I’ve asked before and i’ll ask again. Why vaccines? Why not computer usage?

STam:

1. Look up statistical power. Briefly say Leukemia has a prevelance of 1/2,000 comparing a group of 1,000 with vaccine vs. 1,000 without would not be expected to show a difference. If you want to include “Anything” in your study it would need to be powered to find a difference of prevelance in diseases much less prevelant than 1,000.

2. That wouldnt be randomised, a study like that would “prove” that suspicous people are less likely to develop diseases as much as it would prove unvaccinated are less likely.

3. I am not sure what you mean. Case studies wouldnt help in this case. If you mean Case controls they are looked at over years, but retroactivly. For example you take 1,000 people with Autism (cases) and “match” them to 1,000 without (controls) and you see if there is a difference in vaccination rates between the two. Which brings us to…

4. Forget the fact that he has been discredited. The very study you demand has been done. Pleas see sources above!

Can you agree to put that hoax aside? Now that several studies has been provided to you?

5. I’ll phrase my aside in the form of a direct question: Why do you think Vaccines casue problems? If it is just base don increase incidence of Autism this occured along with an increase in computer ownership, how do you know computers dont casue Autism? why vaccines?

6. “There is simply too much money involved to trust the govt. ” the government pays for vaccines they dont make money of them

Stam I’ll take that challenge! though forgive me if instead of one study I’ll provide several:

Increasing exposure to antibodystimulating

proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not

associated with risk of autism

DeStefano F, Price CS, Weintraub ES.

Journal of Pediatrics. 2013;

On-time Vaccine Receipt in the First Year Does Not Adversely Affect Neuropsychological Outcomes

Smith M and Woods C, Pediatrics. 2010;

125(6): 1134-41

Measles-Containing Vaccines and Febrile Seizures in Children Age 4 to 6 Years

Klein N, et al., Pediatrics. 2011; 129(5): 809-14

No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study

Peltola H, et al., Lancet. 1998; 351:1327-8

Mumps, Measles, and Rubella Vaccine and the Incidence of Autism Recorded by General Practitioners: A Time Trend Analysis

Kaye JA, et al., British Medical Journal. 2001; 322:460-63

MMR and autism: further evidence against a causal association

Farrington CP, et al., Vaccine. 2001; Jun 14; 19(27): 3632-5

There are more, but I do not want to overwhelm you. I’d be more than happy to discuss further any questions you may have on any of these (or other) studies you come across.

Please let me know if you would like some more

DY my last reply was to vague for my liking here is a direct (tentative response):

Making fun of the anti-vaccine movement – should be done becasue it is not based on hosent mistake and causes harm (Although the movement includes those with tragic circumstances)

making fun of anti-vaccine individuals: if honest mistake- I think making fun is wrong

if its deliberate misleading: If harm can result absolutly make fun

If harmless, I wouldnt in tragic circumstances

Hope that helps. I am not writing this in stone though

OWl

The causality they found is with ANAPHALAXIS ie allergic reaction.

They went on to say:

“Additionally, evidence favors rejection of five vaccine-adverse event relationships, including MMR vaccine and autism and inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma episodes. However, for the majority of cases (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship. Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines.”

I’d like to highlight that entire paragraph, in particular the last line:

“Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”

From the VERY source you quoted!

Of course you left this out of your post.

Now the question becomes if you DELIBERTLY left off that last line. OR if it was an honest mistake. For an honest mistake, I wouldnt make fun. Now that mistake has been corrected and you know that “Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”

IF however this was an intentional misleading of the public, given the dire effects that can and have resulted from such dishonest manipulation it is VITAL that you and those like you are made fun of

The problem is the shoe lobby is too strong. There is tons and tons of research out there proving that shoes cause autism but the government and shoe stores are working together to bury it. Thank you Rebyid for helping spread the word!

Thanks dearest Health, your last point cracked me up while at the same time providing examples of your dishonesty and evading questions:

Earlier you said:

“they made an agreement. Who says they wouldn’t abide by the agreement, even though it’s 2015?” … “Do you think that the US Constitution lasts forever? The agreement from the founding leaders in Israel, called the “status-quo” is like the Constitution!” (both are verbatim from your own words)

So yes if that isnt outright saying that agreements last forever it is certainly implying such

Now you say:”I never said “agreements last forever”! Somehow you think that I implied that.”

🙂

(As an aside, if you (correctly) dont view government agreements as lasting forever, how long do they last? a year? a decade? A generation? until circumstances change? or until overruled by the legislature/court?)

I then asked you

“If the draft gets revoked and R’ S Aurbach supports voting in the next election would that be him changing his mind regarding Zionsim and now viewing the Brisker Rav as wrong?””

Please note that like most of my points pointing out how flawed your “logic” is, you simply ignored it while repeating it as if you were addressing it.

Health more dishonesty. I did explain to you why you’re idea that agreements last forever is absurd, you have yet to respond to that

(“As mentioned before Agreements dont last forever especially when governments are involved. (read the Senator’s leter to Iran for a modern day example)So sorry to have to burst your uninformed bubble (again).”

You then replied with a non-sequitor about R” Shmuel Aurbach and then more non-sequitors about feeling guilty.You never replied to my point. I, of course easily responded to every unrelated point you made, but dont lose track of the original thread)

Now you are shifting gears again, but of course I will patiently explain to you how wrong you still are.

“That was my whole point! A lot of people are starting to see that the Brisker Rov was right about Zionism & Zionists.”

That was not your point!

Let me bring you up to speed since you are having trouble following your own train of thought (again)

You claimed I feel guilty that R’ S Aeurbach now sees the Brisker Rav as right.

I pointed out that this isnt a reason to feel guilty since I am not one of his followers.

You now either a. forgot what your point was or b. are changing it to a new similarly irrelevant point. one which you have been doing this entire thread.

Two other points:

a. R’ S Aurbach can hardly be called “a lot of people” Please see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/293145/photo-essay-admorim-and-rabbonim-voting-in-eretz-yisroel-on-election-day-2015-photos-by-jdn.html

and here:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/293028/photo-essay-maran-harav-shteinman-and-harav-chaim-kanievsky-voting-on-election-day-2015-photos-by-avrumi-berger-jdn.html

b. If the draft gets revoked and R’ S Aurbach supports voting in the next election would that be him changing his mind regarding Zionsim and now viewing the Brisker Rav as wrong?

catch yourself IF its Kli shemelochto lissur, it would be mutar to shut it litzorech gufo, to prevent foul odor.

Thank you for highligting the lack of practical halach learning in “mainstream yeshivas”, though I think that is secondary to the OP’s point

APY The start of your last post is spot on up until here:

“but you can not say “the food that person certifies is not kosher”. The more private an individual the better chance they have at a successful defamation suit.”

This part contradicts your first few lines

In order for the court to determine whether the defendant’s saying “the food that person certifies is not kosher” is defamation or not the court would – by definition- have to get involved “in determining if the shulchan aruch and nosei keilim or lihavdil the jts handbook on kashrus is what determines kosher.” Which as you correctly start out saying, they will not do. There is zero chance of a successful defamation lawsuit much as if you sue me for saying your Eruv, or Mikvah arent kosher

APY it is not defamation if it is true even they were damaged by the remarks.

For example if I say John is a molester, he sues me becasue now his child care he runs in his basement is suffering. If it turns out he is a molester, I am not liable even if his business suffers. In order to determine liabilities the court will decide if my remarks were true.

Now on to kashrus

If I say Shirley’s organization is unrelaible and her “hechsher” business suffers. In order to be found liable the court would have to determine if I am right or not. However, as you correctly pointed out, “The law will not decide whose standard of kashrus is correct ” Therfore the case will get thrown out even if her business suffers since the court can not determine whose interpretation of Kashrus is correct.

This isnt limited to kashrus. If I say a mikva isnt kosher would be the same thing

Any specefic (recent) case you can cite that says anything different?

(In the old days there were laws protecting Kosher. Kosher was determined to be only by orthodox standards. Then (not anymore in NY) the opposite of what you say could occur, since I could ahve sued Shirley for claiming to be Kosher when she wasn not by orthodox standards. But this is moot today)

DY, people dont want to be tolerated, they want to be appreciated.

People have a variety of talents. Learning, particualry the specific type of learning that is Valued in (most) Yeshivas, is not practical for everybody. As the OP pointed out some are more cut out for Bekius or other limudim like Halacha. Some peoples kochos may not be in learning at all, they have other strengths and talents, that more often than not are not appreciated in Yeshiva or may even be shunned (like being good at sports) These people want and deserve appreciation for their strengths too.

This is a known problem with no (easy?) solution. As obviously Torah and other talents, are in different leagues.

I had an extensive discussion with a respected Adom Gadol regarding this. He was asked what the point of the Yeshiva’s Purim Shpiel was. He said the only reason he could think of was, as an opportunity to celebrate/appreciate those with talents that they don’t normally get to show off such as Writing/directing/acting.

To be clear: I am not saying Yeshivas or Yeshivaleit SHOULD give chashivus to talents other than learning. I am just pointing out the reality of this problem, which may not have a (easy?) solution.

Health

guilty? over what?

“You’re trying very hard to say I’m wrong. WHY?”

Its simple. There are many different threads on a variety of topics in coffee room. I dont comment on most of them since, on most topics even if I disagree witha poster, I see how reasonable people can disagree So I dont bother. I leave it as “agree to disagree” without actually going through the motions.

The threads I comment on things that are so illogical or nutty or simply factually incorrect that I do not believe reasonable people can disagree. (Obviously there are (a few exceptions).

In fact one of the threads that first got me commenting was on a math equation. It was an elementary school level problem that involved order of operations. See here :

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-x-0

People where actually arguing! There were several answers given. Even after the correct answer was explained. There STILL where those insisting a wrong answer was correct. There is no “Agree to disagree” OR my favorite response there, “It depends on how you perceive [it]” No! the answer is 14. any other answer is simply wrong.

Or another example, which I beleive you agree on is that of vaccines. It is not a discussion where we can “agree to disagree” Blaming Autism on vaccines is simply wrong. PEriod. I’d be happy to explain ad nauseum why it is wrong. As I recall youve argued regarding vaccines too. You’e tried very hard to say others are wrong. WHY?

Is it because you’re feeling guilty??!?

I doubt it.

Back to the subject at hand. I dont think Ive ever argued (on YWN) regarding Zionism or the draft. Those or both topics about which reosanable people can disagree. However your comment:

“The Herzl Zionists agreed that Frum people don’t have to go to the army. Nowadays – the “Religious Zionists” which Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi) is part of the gov., passed the law forcing e/o to be drafted!”

Was so absurd for several different reasons as outlined previously, that it is not something about which reasonable people can disagree. So before completely writing you off as unreasonable, I shall point out over and over how foolsih your original statement was.

Lol Health! That one cracked me up,

You lft out the first line of the story you quoted :”After much debate and endless discussion on the matter, HaGaon HaRav Shmuel Auerbach Shlita has rendered his final decision regarding elections for 20th Knesset. …” This was posted yesterday 3/16. A few days AFTER you claimed he said to boycott. You are a hilariously dishonest individual.

At any rate, this is a side matter, The main issue is whether supporting the draft now is “dishonest” You attributed this absurd view to R’ Aurbach, and have et to provide a source for it.

Health

“If I elaborate, will you stop trying to manipulate e/o with your Zionist Shittas?”

a. chas veshalom!

b. No where on this thread have I espoused any zionist shita. In fact zionsim can be the work of the sitrah achra combining all 50 sharei tumah in an effort to destro klal yisroel and every point I made (on this thread) would still hold true. All we are discussing on this thread is if those who support the draft now are more dishonest than the early zionists. All could be Reshaim Gemurim, that doesnt change the point at hand.

yo””Yahadut Hatorah Trying to Get Back Some of the Lost Voters (11 opinions)

[VIDEO IN EXTENDED ARTICLE] Facing a boycott at the polls from the Yerushalmi faction”

does not say he said not to vote for Gimmel.

“WHY? Because they supported the last gov., which voted in a law to draft Yeshiva Bochrim! “

Of course they oppose the draft. This isnt what we are discussing. For arguments sake, I oppose the draft too! we are discussing whether the original agreement should remains in force for all eternity and if by Now supporting the draft, the NRP are “dishonest”

Owl

“And there’s plenty of evidence that many children have had their lives destroyed that way”

Care to provide ANY evidence? Let alone “plenty”

You say ” What the good Rabbi meant is that there’s big bucks in the vaccine business.”

Question for you: How much do you think a pediatrician makes for adminisering a vaccine? Im curious to hear your guess