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Joseph
What?
not that they need my haskama obviously, but as I said I dont understand why R’ Oelbaum et al did permit it so I’m not sure why you call it “untruths” or “stupidly”
That said, nothing you said changes the truth of my last post. Regardless of what the “net effect” The only thing that is debatable is whether the people waging the war are doing it lesehm shomayim or not. Do you think R’ Dovid Feinstein and R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky etc were reading the coffee room and decided to publsih the kol koreh and coincidentally Ami and Mishpacha decided to publish pages on it too? Again as I said previously, just because a war is being waged, by what I believe are “scare mongers””in no way means those Rabbanim should or even could be ignored ch”v.”
Nor is this a new problem when the copepods issue in NYC water arose a decade or so ago, I heard from Rabbi Belsky that there is no problem with the water and those who claim there is are “terrorists worse than Al Qaeda striking fear in the hearts of rum yidden” That is a verbatim quote i heard from him in person at a public shiur.
Joseph
“So in your opinion “those rabbis” like Rav Feinstein, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Belsky, Rav Miller, etc. are just “scare mongerers” trying to scare away Jews from following other rabbis who permit? “
No. Who are you quoting when you say “Those Rabbis” and “scaremongers”
That said I do know some of those “scaremongers” who get so much chiyus from finding bugs in orange juice and bothering Rabbonim about new kosher-switches, and no it does not coem from a good place.
This may comeas a surprise but the Rabbanim you mention do not spend their free time straining orange juice or watching youtube videos about new idegogo projects. nor do they write up kol korehs to forward to each other for signage and have AMi and mishpacha write several pages on the subject. There is clearly a war being waged against kosher switch and I do not think it is a war leshem Shomayim.
OBviously this in no way means those Rabbanim should or even could be ignored ch”v.
We dont have to argue about what Rabbi Oelbaum said. His words are freely available for all to see. Welcoem to the 21st century Here is a verbatim transcript:
“It is clear it is not a grama Mitzad Hilchos shabbos there is no question of any melacha being doen by using that switch.” (Again I dont understand why it isnt a psik reisha which there are deios that hold makes it assur not grama)
The developer did NOT misrepresent his view, (though he did misrepresent others incuding R” PEretz Steinberg) the video DID go on to say”mitzad Sheini i recommend everyone asks their own to find out whether it is in the spirit of Shabbos although there is no real melacha but ask your own rav regarding practical usage.”
The post you link to says almsot the same thing
Zilzul shabbos is subjective. Say I hold it is zilul not to have it since it enhances Shabbos so much. And besides he said to ask my Rav who lets say also says its zilzul Shabbos not to have it
“In any event, you’re okay with the Shabbos Switch being advertised in the Hamodia etc. and sold in local seforim stores?”
yes though I wouldnt use it. Rabbi Oelbaum doesnt need my approval he is certainly a bar hachi ditto for the other supporters. Though again I dont understand why he allows it mitzad melacha.
joseph
Because for better or for worse Yidishkeit is not as monolithic as you’d like it to be.
and in spite of the full scare war being waged against it there are Rabbanim who hold there is no melacha involved (R’ Oelbaum, and R” chaim shpira among others) Or that it is muttar for Cholim (R’ Nebenzal, R’ Harfanes, R’ Neuwirth) among others.
That said I have no idea why it would be allowed (generally). The safek aspect seems like a joke to me. In order for the safek to have any validity, at some point I’d expect it not to work.
In other words say it becomes popular and say, 200,000 people install 4 of them in their homes, they flip it on/off an average of 4 times over Shabbos for 55 shabbosos/ Yomim tovim over the next 2 decades. That is 2,200,000,000 uses for at least one of them the switch should take awhile to turn on/off ie. months or at the least days. I’m curious if the inventor would say this is the case. Somehow i doubt it
Stam
you made both the following staments:
“No “study” in the world will convince me otherwise”
So you admit that you lied when you said “Surely if vaccines are as safe as you say, let the company spend a few million dollars (what they make from one vaccine in one year!) and settle the case once and for all “
since you now say you cant be convinced by studies?
“Are you educated in that regard?”
It depends what you mean by alternative medicine National Science Foundation defines it as “all treatments that have not been proven effective using scientific methods” No I have not studied guesswork. Evidence is all that matters to me, nor do anecdotes about the people you know matter (though of course I feel sorry for them and wish them a refua sheleima if they are still injured).
If you mean am I educated in dangerous side effects that “natural” medicines have. Yes very educated!
At any rate how is this related to the subject at hand namely that there is ZERO link between vaccines and Autism. This has been proven in study after study after study
Stam
You dont have to admit you are ignorant on the issue, that has been pretty clear throughout your posts. There is nothing wrong with ignorance that is how we learn. I too was once ignorant on the issue and have spent time researching it, now I am no longer ignorant. I am more than happy to help educate you or any others who have questions (writing off a study because some of the funding came from the government isnt a question it is paranoid fear mongering that isnt evidence based, naturally I cant argue with that, besides the government didnt fund it the authors are affiliated with the Lewin Group which is a private group)
There is no need to apologize, I am happy to educate. Always question it is what makes us human and is how you will grow. However in order to grow you when faced with overwhelming evidence contrary to your preconceived notions you must be willing to change your mind.
The only thing that does disappoint me is that I fell for you. Most discussions with anti-vaccine/pro-disease people ends this way. Yet when you said “I challenge you to find one study comparing 1,000 vaccinated children to 1,000 non-vaccinated children so we can compare how many get damaged from vaccines. Surely if vaccines are as safe as you say, let the company spend a few million dollars (what they make from one vaccine in one year!) and settle the case once and for all !” I foolishly believed you.
Turns out that was a lie, and I fell for it.
Joseph
You should always daven before during and after doctor, ditto for crossing the street.
newbee So in the middle of the night on a dark country road where nobody will see the nes, I can cross without looking?
Newbee not sure if you are serious but taking the next logical step…
Maybe someone shouldnt look when he crosses the street, since before looking Hashem can have cars avoid the person bederech hateva
excellent DY!
??? ?????? indeed
yosi7
Go for it. I doubt it will be well known enough to deserve a ban or speech at shalosh seudos, you should be so lucky!
owl
I will read the book b”ln sounds interesting. Though only tangentially related to the subject at hand, namely the overwhelming evidence indicating no link between Autism and vaccines.
Not sure what your point is with your second comment, did you stop mid paragraph?
I have a beautiful picture of R’ Aaron Lichtenstein Z”l talking in learning with his nephew and my Rebbi R’ Moshe Twersky Z”L H”YD at the latter’s son’s chasuna.
It is painful to have lost both within a year
Yehi zichro baruch
Patur
Ironically some Chasidim hold Women arent allowed in the Sukkah. (I believe Munkatch is noheg like this, though I could be wrong on that point.)
Stam
I hope you had a nice Pesach. I am still awaiting a reply to my question posed to you.
To recap
You stated ” I challenge you to find one study comparing 1,000 vaccinated children to 1,000 non-vaccinated children so we can compare how many get damaged from vaccines.”
You then said this would “settle the case once and for all !” You made several silly demands regarding the study which I explained werent possible. At any rate I provided SEVERAL studies above demonstrating that there is no link whatsoever between Autism and Vaccines.
I asked you severla times to either acknowledge this point and, in your words, “settle the case once and for all” or refute the studies.
You then dodged the question with “your post will take some time to digest and i don’t have the ???? ???? for that before pesach.”
It is now over a week after Pesach and you have yet to reply…
Incidentally, what prompted me to revisit this, was that waiting in my mailbox at home was the latest issue of JAMA it is dedicated to child health and on page 1534 is yet ANOTHER study demonstrating no harmful association between MMR vaccine and Autism, this time even among children already at higher risk for Autism.
It is entitled “Autism occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children with Older Siblings with and Without Autism” They looked at 95,727 children hope that is enough.
As soon as you are done “digesting” the earlier studies Ive sent you please peruse this one as well.
Binyamin
His Rav would know the answer to the question as well as any of us. Her rav has a CHANCE of being able to answer, but I doubt he would no either.
“They’re just doing it from spite or to blackmail the wife financially or otherwise.”
what if the “otherwise” you mention is not necessarily wrong.
I often hear “There is never a reason to withhold a get”
Is this really true?
Imagine the most extreme hypothetical case you can. The wife receives full custody of the children, the husband knows she abuses them but she is so conniving that she managed to brainwash the kids into thinking their loving father is the abuser. etc etc Add in more extreme far fetched details as you see fit.
(I am no referring to any specific case, as I said this is “hypothetical”)
Is it really wrong to withhold a get in this extreme case?
I’m conflicted it makes me squeamish but I dont know if it is necessarily wrong, especially considering the risk to children in this extreme case
what do others think?
Whom do you expect to get the prize from?
coffee addict it is much much longer than that…
“”The most dangerous of these regimes is Iran, that has wed a cruel despotism to a fanatic militancy. If this regime, or its despotic neighbor Iraq, were to acquire nuclear weapons, this could presage catastrophic consequences, not only for my country, and not only for the Middle East, but for all mankind.
I believe the international community must reinvigorate its efforts to isolate these regimes, and prevent them from acquiring atomic power. The United States and Israel have been at the forefront of this effort, but we can and must do much more. Europe and the countries of Asia must be made to understand that it is folly, nothing short of folly, to pursue short-time material gain while creating a long-term existential danger for all of us.
Only the United States can lead this vital international effort to stop the nuclearization of terrorist states. But the deadline for attaining this goal is getting extremely close.”
From a speech Netanyahu gave to a joins session of congress
on
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wait for it
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scroll down for the date
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July 10 1996
Ivdu
I was clear form the onset that I make shlisel chalah as did my parents. That said I have little doubt it is an adopted goyish custom. This has all been discussed previously. I didn’t mean to confuse you.
Im not sure which part of your post I didnt reply too (I certainly didnt mean to ignore you)
If you meant this question “”If there is a problematic correlation, anyway, why didn’t previous rabbonim point it out and stop the practice?”
I did in fact reply, but will repost here:
a. They didnt know
b. The tzibur wouldnt accept it
PAA
Thanks
Though
a. Ive never quite seen what the Taz says being done. (I assumed he was talking when preparing the Chasan by putting ashes, but granted it could be after the chupa)
b. I only mentioned it becasue it is something that we can see unfolding. Even if it is a reincarnation of an older perhaps similiar minhag. 20 years ago (almost?) nobody had it at their Chupa, Slowly people began doing it. Now (almost?) every chupa has it sung (I havent been to a real chasidish wedding in a while so I dont know about them)
Halevai
Agreed!
See the thread I started as an offshoot of this, based on your very point (link in my last post).
I do find it interesting watching new “minhagim” pop up and imagining this very conversation between my grandchildren and Joseph’s.
In a Generation or so you can copy paste the entire above conversation just substitute “Shlissel Chalah” with “Chanuka presents”. I can hear it now
Joseph’s Grandchild : “Chanuka presents are a very old minhag”
My grandchild: “Actually it is a recent innovation based on Goyim’s presents, thats why it isnt mentioned in early sources”
Joseph’s Grandchild: “You don’t know the dating of the minhag. Minhagim were frequently not recorded in seforim and were only passed down via mesorah. So the earliest written record of it is in no way indicative of how early the minhag is.”
As I mentioned on an earlier thread I heard a magid shiur give a reason for the minhag of saying ka’eileh together on Pesachs’ maftir. It is only a matter of time until Siddurim are printed with instructins that “Yesh nohagim lomar hamilah ka’eileh bkol ram”. As someonne mentioned on that thread “ka’eileh” has the same letters as “a Kalah” And what more auspicous time to have a segula for a kalah than yetzias mitzrayim and birchas Tal!
Ive also heard reasons given for the minhag of themes on Purim. (the reasons are actually better and more believable than shlisel chalah)
Another new minhag which is close to becoming an old part of mesora is singing Im Eshkochaich at the Chupa.
These are examples which (I think) we can all agree on are recent innovations, yet we actively see them becoming part of our Mesora.
None of these are bad per se. Though I agree with you “This waters down the whole concept of Minhag and Mesorah.”
Plus I find it all fascinating.
Joseph you left off this part of Josh W’s post:
What I find more problematic is what the widespread acceptance of this minhag means.
A) Initially, people’s practice was more or less mimetic.
B) Then, people turned to texts and away from their mimetic traditions.
C) Then, with the advent of the Internet, each group’s personal mimetic traditions become text (or become memes?) and become the expectation for the global Jewish community..
Though it really belongs on “Minhag Shopping” thread
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/minhag-shopping
Great news! I came across a mekor!
Halevai
“Who’s saying that it didn’t develop or evolve later on? A Minhag becomes sanctified with use.
There are many customs that started however they did and the intention was added later. Nobody made this into a Mitzvah. It is a custom that has beautiful ideas behind it (or ahead of it). At this point it becomes part of a Messorah”
i’m not sure if that was directed to me. But, I agree with every word! very well put
I agree with your other post too, with one minor quibble.
you say “who cares?” and “To harp on the technical grandfather of a custom is silly” I disagree. I find the development of minhagim and by extention change to Jewish practice a fascinating topic. I read every book/sefer of minhagim that can get my hands on (as an aside none, including Chasidish works like minhag yisroe Torah and Nitei Gavriel claim shlissel chalah is older than a few centuries Joseph is a trailblazer, but to be fair i cant PROVE Moshe Rabeinu didsnt make Shlisel Chalah much as I cant PROVE he didnt wear a shtreimel)
Joseph thanks for the last post. Very interesting
Ivdu
You brought up the rabbit.
I am chassidish too and plan to make Shlisel Chalah. I’m so sorry to have upset you. I wont tell you where Shtreimel and Vaseh zoken come from, but I’ll give you a hint It’s not Moshe Rabeniu.
If you are interested in some of these minhagim there is an interesting Sereid by R’ Dovi Meisels called Shabbos Secrets, Seder Secrets, Seudah secrets which includes pictures of many of these Challahs.
“If there is a problematic correlation, anyway, why didn’t previous rabbonim point it out and stop the practice?”
a. They didnt know
b. The tzibur wouldnt accept it,
Joseph
I dont follow, Torah Shbal peh as you point out IS written, and before it was written we didnt know what to do based on mesora there was continous machlokes about everything. To the point where eis laaasos that yidishkeit would dissapear if all that was relied on was mesora, so it WAS written. Sadly in the 2711 blat in Bavli there was no room to stick in Shlissel Chala. Notr in Yerushalmi or in any of our midrashim or even the Zohar!
Joseph
Thats baloney. We have thousands of written pages from every period covering every facet of daily living from when we wake up.until, nay including when we sleep, all year round from when we are born (even before that) to after we die. There are even recordings of personal minhagim like those of the maharil. NONE mention shlisel chalah. Even chasidim like the nitei gavriel acknowledge it is a chasidish minhag and thus can not be much older than a few hundred years which coincidently is where we first find it recorded among our aformentiined 1000s of pages
IvduesHashem
“Also, who’s to say that the christians didn’t get their idea from us?”
The dating of the practice by us and lehavdil by them. It isnt even close
“But would you suggest that due to the proximity in time of pesach to lehavdil easter, it means that the rabbit was taken from the christians?”
No Yaknehaz sounds similar to “jag da has” or German for hunt the Rabbit. If the bunnies were dancing around with painted eggs, i might be suspicous.
Also keep in mind Rabbits for yaknehaz predates Easter bunnies (By over 3 centuries believe it or not! Hare hunting is found as early as 1350 in the Sarajevo Hagadah while the Easter Bunny doesnt show up until 1682.) . So not to worry.
“At least one explanation is that the key is to remind us that we have the “key” to unlock great spiritual achievements in this great time leading up to matan torah.”
That can be said at any time of year: Elul is time for teshva, we blow the Shofar, then Aseres Yemei Teshuva, then the rest of Tishrei a month packed with mitzvos. cheshvan as the rain begins to fall, rain is symbol for Parnassa, Kislev has Chanukah the final Gmar Din according to the Bnei Yissaschar. Teves and Shevat is the end of the rain season one last chance for parnasa. Adar has Purim a time of Geula etc etc etc
Zahavas Dad
From the Kosher Switch website:
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Zahavasdad
It isnt remotely similar to the Shabbos Lamp. With the lamp it is on for the duration of Shabbos you just cover it with a safe cover to block the light which remains on. This is not much different than closing the door to a lit room.
The kosher switch, does block something but that in of itself doesnt make it muttar. The light actually turns on and off. It is in no way similar to the kosher lamp. “Blocking something” isnt a magic phrase that allows melacha to be done (though it often turns it into gerama which is still assur), many melachas invlove “blocking something” for example all you do when you shut a stovetop is block the flow of gas to a flame, it is still assur on Shabbos (and Yom Tov).
The way it works as identified on
mw13
Novels are a legitimate source for historical practice and are used all the time, as in examples I provided.
You say “a practice that is several hundred years ” You do realize that given how old our religion is, “several hundred years” is a modern innovation. Kudos to you for admitting that.
BTW a point you are overlooking is that even without the Irish source the minhag is sketchy. Here is the timeline:
1- Goyim make breads marked with crosses this time of year. This is a fact it is true throughout Europe and is older than shlisel chalah
2- Keys were often shaped like crosses. Another Fact
3- Yidden started making Breads marked with keys this time of year.
The only link Alfassi provided (which may not be needed, though it seems solid to me) is that Goyim used their cross shaped keys (which nobody disputes they had) to make the cross shaped marks on their breads (which nobody disputes that they had).
Keep in mind this is not a proof at all. It is almost impossible to prove these kind of historical things. Even if we found a letter from Yankel Yatzmich describing how he loves this idea of marking breads with tzelems that he picked up in Ireland and plans to copy them by using keys, and he has a meeting with the Oheiv Yisroel where he plans to trick him into thinking it is an ancient source. It still wouldn’t prove anything! “Obviously the letter was forged” “The Apter Rav would never fall for it” All we can do is examine the evidence and reach the most likely conclusion. Even without Alfassi’s paper (which seems relatively solid to me) The conclusion that it is an adaptation of Goyish cross marked rolls (“Hot cross buns”) made this tiem of year is pretty sound
Rebyid
I always assumed that was a dream.
Miss zarves is pretty sure it exists.
Jewish thinker
. What would be an illogical minhag?
Jewish thinker a.if the source is avodeh zarah logic wouldn’t help. B. Keys in challah is the polar opposite of logical custom.
Sam2
Im pretty convinced the source is avodah zarah yet still plan to have one as my parents did.because a. If you really wanted you can come up with a heter ( I know chukas akum is a pet topic of yours but you are learned enough to come up with snifim lehakel if you really wanted to). B. Abandoning minhagim is dangerous. C. Using historical research to change modern practice is dangerous.
Lf
taamei minhagim is a more recent source than the ohev yisroel, not sure how that helps. That said id love an earlier source please dont give up. I bet that alfassi fellow would love one too.
Dy
You really don’t consider that a source? They (allegedly) used keys to make cross/key shaped marks in their bread at this time of year. And we make key shaped marks or key shaped bread which evolved to sticking a key in regular bread.
Its impossible to prove of course. But isnt that suspicious? Wouldnt you call that a parallel?
Jewish thinker
I provided a source thats better and just as believable than any your going to get.
At what point are you going to get the hint that there may not be a source?
LF
which post do you mean, my posts to you are after his?
You keep saying he should be more familiar with our sources, which source do you mean?
Earlier you said chanukha presents are an innovation. I am wondering you how old do you think Shlissel Chalah is?
Dor Hamidbar? Bayis Rishon? Taanaim? Amoraim? Gaonim? Rishonim?
mw13
Why wouldnt a work of fiction be a legitimate source? A novel written in say Victorian england is a great source regarding how they spoke, lived dressed, and baked bread (if mentioned in the novel). Read Moby Dick (dont really it is long and incredibly boring), it is a great source of information on 19th century whaling and whaling towns.
regarding your second paragraph:
“How was the shape of the cross made? Either with a bone of a pig or with a cross shaped key. There is no parallel to the Schlissel Challah here whatsoever.”
Really No parallel? “OR WITH A CROSS SHAPED KEY” No parallel at all?
LF
with time Chanuka presents will be mentioned in Seforim.
It is already in (Emes L’Yaakov).
you say presents is an innovation. How old do you think Shlissel Chalah is?
Dor Hamidbar? Bayis Rishon? Taanaim? Amoraim? Gaonim? Rishonim? If yes to any of these, how do you account for the fact that it isnt mentioned in any of the thousands upon thousands of pages we b”H have recording literally everything we need to know about yahadus including how to run our lives from the dawn to dusk all year round throughout our lives?
DY
I didnt understand LF that way though you may be right. The bottom line is that just because an action exists, doenst inherently make it muttar Since “everything has its origins in the Torah” There is a concept of copying Goyim, minhagim are borrowed. As the saying goes “Vi es kristelt zich azoy yidelt zich” This is only natural in golus. It is admirable of Great Gedolim to give reasons to existing practices, they arent historians, they see an action among Yidden so they give it reasons.
Lets take a (hopefully) non-contrevertial example, given the upcoming Yom Tov. Eating milchings has many reasons given Do you think that once upon a time Chazal sat around thinking that “Shavuos doesnt have any food atached to it, lets come up with something” Someone else replied “Well Moshe Rabbeinu was on Har Sinai fr 40 days, cna anybody think of a food equaling 40?” “Yes! chalav equals 40, lets eat milchigs on Shavuos”
Isnt it obvious that this minhag (not mentioned in Gemara, or Early Rishonim) developed over time with reasons added by Gedolei Olam later? Otherwise how would you account for the variety of reasons given?
Is this controversial?
There is no reason to think that while reasons are given to Shlissel Chalah these reasons were added later to an existing Custom. In fact I’m willing to bet the original sources are clear on this. They give a reason to an ALREADY EXISTING minhag, The Oheiv Yisroel (or whomever first mentions it) doesnt say LEts start a new minhag, he gives a reason for an existing minhag. He wasnt a historian, he had much more important things to do, then research the development of the minhag.
LF
“I (in all my haughtiness) did not find so, I did not find such a Gra, I (again, in all my haughtiness) rely on Mesorah; as my fathers and Rabbis did, so do I. They believed and taught me to believe in Hashem, His Torah, His Mitzvohs and His Torah greats. No one is going to tell me following Minhag Yisroel Torah is chukas hagoy. “
I whole heartedly agree!!!. I plan to make Shlisel chalah As I Have every year, and my parents and Grandparents made. This in no way changes anything I wrote above.
I do have a related question but I think it deserves a new thread. Stay tuned
Lf
Everything has its origins in the Torah? Chanukah time there was a discussion regarding the min hag of giving Chanukah gifts, clearly a minhag borrowed from goyim (the discussion was wether this neccesarily made it assur) do you believe this too Automaticly has a source in the torah, after all it is included in everything. Others pointed out the minhag of trees in shul on shavuos, something the gra felt was assur as it is borrowed from goyim. Too bad he didn’t know where to look chas
There is such a thing as adopting goyish minhagim. If you can’t find an early source for it, (and I sincerly hope you do since unlike most people doing it today it actually is a family minhag of mine). It is reasonable to conclude that it is a recent innovation and given the similar earlier custom among goyim. It is reasonable to conclude that we adopted it from them.
Little Froggie. I dont follow.
You mentioned “Torah, Mishna, Talmud, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, Rishonim, …, “
In which of those is shlissel chalah found?
(I left off Achronim since that is where it is in fact first found)
Dy.
Debunked? Really? not merely raised questions or provided a possible limud zechus, but debunked?
147 any book is a sefer.
Where do you draw the line t seforim to the best of my knowledge seforin have been written in 2015 too?
Leib is mentioned in seforim though not in tenach/mishna/gemara.
What year heralded the closing of Jewish names in your opinion and why then
Also nobody in tenach/mishna/gemara had the names chaim, pesach ,yomtov ilan etc. Are these then not jewish names?
Akuperma
The churban also happned in the past I hope you still cry over “spilled milk”.
You mentioned hitler. To the best of my knowledge he wasnt jewish.
But I think we are going in circles as you are repeating the same nonsense over and over.
Let me get this straight as I understand you, in your opinion the rampant intermarriage and assimilation taking place in America is a good thing, or at the least not wirth crying over
Is this in fact your view?
Joseph
what is your minhag?
147
All the more reason why reminders are important.
147
Has it ever struck you as strange that there is rabbinic literature what to do if one forgot tot make an eruv( relying on he Rav, Making on first day Yom Tov with a Tenai) Yet there is nothing about forgetting a seder.
Do you really think they are same?
147 What are you talking about? So in your opinion the following arent Jewish names?
Names that are Hebrew words that nobody in Tenach had eg: Chaim, Pesach, Yom Tov, Aryeh, Tzvi, Dov, Ilan etc
Names of Tanaim and Amaraim that arent in Tenach: Yochanan, Yanai, Abaye Rava, Huna, Akiva, etc
And of course names that we adoptied from goyim Alexander, Hyrkanus etc
?
Jewish Names are simply names used by Jews if enough Jews name their kid “Lemon Juice” at a certain point it too will become a Jewish name (I don’t know how long it would take) All the more so, if the name is something identifiably Jewish like a yiddish equivalant of an existing Hebrew name then the process is much faster.