ubiquitin

BY
Part 2
“you didn’t answer many of my kashyos on חבלה which is fine”
I missed them!

ITs not fine, I would never just ignore a question yet keep replying I think that isnt nice. I am sorry I left you waiting for an answer

(I don’t really understand your assessment “you didn’t answer many of my kashyos on חבלה which is fine. Just know that R Moshe (and re some of them, Tosfos, the חוות יאיר as well) who make these points as well. Not to answer Them is not so fine.”
The opposite is true, We are having a conversation. To just idnore Your question isnt nice. I’m not having a conversation with R’Moshe etc, I missed all the questions you think he posed to me, though I am flattered, that you view me as equipped to answer them.

I reread your posts looking for the question (and hoping that maybe maybe you had the honesty to answer my question opposed to you,)

I found them, they where aimed at RE not me, which is why I skipped them

Since you want me to address them, I am happy too.
note, I am not saying it is chavala so the question isnt on me. I can give possible answers but the short answer is “I Don;t know”
Ask the MAharit who held that way, ask R’ Shlomo Zalman who is quoted by Nishmas Avraham as saying it is Gezel (I don’t have it with me, he might answer your questions)

“A) the drosho from where it is assur is שפך דם האדם באדם.

The Torah clearly is calling this שפיכות דמים. Nu, so you will taana why does a husband get paid for חבלה? Not a particularly bothersome kashya. An eved who is killed also gives the owner a monetary compensation and there surely is no heter to kill an eved.”

There is no heter for chavala either. Calling it Chavala isnt a “heter” to abort. Malbin Pnei chaveiro b’rabim is also called “kei’lo shofech damim ” (wink wink) That doesnt mean it has all the rules of shefichas damim (Though iirc I think tosfos does take it literally that it is yaharog veal yaavor)

B) why do we need to come on to רודף when being mattir when the mothers life is in danger. The simple klal of פיקוח נפש דוחה כל התורה כולה would clearly apply to חבלה. Nor vus, it is רציחה which only has a heter through the unique vehicle of רודף.”

The minhas chinuch I quoted earlier asks this question he leaves it as Tzorech iyan, (note that therfore we say it is murder , he says explcitly that it is NOT murder, art least for Jews) You cant expect me to have a better answer than the minchas chinuch.

Again. I grant these arent satisfying answers, but as mentioned several tiems I Am NOT arguing abortion is muttar, nor that it is chavala. There are shitos that hols that way. MAreh makom ani loch,

any other questions?

RE
Rodaf does apply to a Goy (at least by a Rodef to murder someone a Rodef for Arayos, he says it doesnt.
The way I understand the minchas chhinuch is that when the mother’s life is in danger and abortion is allowed it isnt literally becasue the fetus is being rodef the mother, if it where that wouldn’t change at birth. Once the baby’s head is out it is a life/nefesh and if her life is in danger from it we don’t say it is being Rodef rather they are equal. What changed? *
The answer is that it became a nefesh. A fetus is not a nefesh it is not a full fledged life. Now there is still an issur to abort generally but if her life is in danger then like all mitzvos besides three (abortion is not one of them) we violate the issur.
כ”ז שלא יצא ראשו לא הוי נפש ע”כ חותכין אותו להציל האם וכפירש”י שם אף דאסור להרוג העוברין ג”כ כמבואר בדנ”ט בתוס’ שם מכל מקום כל עבירות נדחות מפני סכנות נפשות אך נפש אינו נדחה מחמת הסברא דמ”ח אבל עובר ל”ש מאי חזית כי לא הוי נפש רק דהתורה אסרה כמו איסור אחר אבל לא הוי ש”ד.
Once it is born NOW it is al life and even if it is “pursuing” her killing it aborting?) is assur .

To be fair the Rambam does formulate abortion as being allowed becasue it is rodef (sounds literal, though says “k’rodef”) . On Whcih the Minchas chinuch writes he doesnt understand

וז”ל הר”מ פ”א מה’ רוצח אף זו מצות לא תעשה שלא לחוס על הרודף לפיכך אמרו חכמים האשה שהיתה מקשה לילד מותר לחתוך העובר בין בסם ובין ביד מפני שהוא כרודף יצא ראשו אין נוגעין בו שאין דוחין נפש מפני נפש וזה טבעו של עולם והנה מה שסיים דזה טבעו של עולם היינו תירוץ הש”ס דמשמיא קרדפי לה ע”כ לא הוי רודף. אך מ”ש בתחלת דבריו דאם לא יצא ראשו חותכין מפני שהוא רודף וכתב על הקודם לפיכך משמע מטעם דהוי רודף לא זכיתי להבין דבאמת לא הוי רודף דהא משמיא רדפו לה והא דמותר לחתוך העובר היינו דלא הוי נפש אבל רודף לא הוי ומאי זה שכתב לשון לפיכך דמשמע דהוא מטעם רודף וצ”ע

Now Since the fetus is NOT being rodef he is mesupak if a Goy can commit abortion to save a life, do we say since the yget kiled its a nefesh and cant choose one over the other, or since a Jew is allowed to abort in such a case, it isnt a nefesh. He sides wit hthe tzad that assur

*This isnt my own question, all ask this and many answers are given.

BY1212

“I wasn’t aware that the סברא to be maikil is bc they say it a חבלה. Not רציחה. If indeed this is this סברא it is an untenable position.”

Luckily the crises preganncy center in Boro Park doesnt look to you to determine wha tpositions are tenible and what aren’t.
The Maharit says abortion is chavala (he leived pre 20’t century
Chavos Yair says Hotzaas zerah (based on this the Tzitz Eleizer says IF an abortion is require r”l better a woman do it sicn e she has less of an issur Hashcasas zera)
Nishmas Avrhama quotes R’ Shlomo Zalman as saying its stealing

Among other reasons. Relatively few say it is murder.
To be clear NONE of the above are muttar for the sake of convenience nor career.

“bichlal that something should be classified for a goy a certain. Way and a yid a different way makes no sense על פניו.”

Try to be careful how you phrase things .
For a goy abortion might be murder (he is certainly guilty of capital offence) and some assur even to save a mother’s life (Minchas Chinuch)

Avira

“If it’s not murder, then go and celebrate it ”

I don’t understand this. Amputating a leg isn’t murder, does that mean it should be celebrated with balloons?

Why cant something not be murder but still not worthy of celebration?

BY1212

Your last comment rasied more questions than your first:

“It created a constitutional right out of thin air sans amendment.”

so not quite. It further expanded a Constitutional right “to privacy” previously upheld in Griswold (1965) preventing laws against married couples buying contraceptives.
Pierce (1925) Stiking down an Oregan law requiring all children attend Public School
Meyer (1923) Preventing laws against teaching foreign languages

Now you can argue that there is no “right to privacy” and that all these cases were wrongly decided, and that the State can legislate all these things. You can’t argue that it was “out of thin air” It was based on decades of precedent.

Do you support overturning all those cases?

“The abortion issue is not church and state. Abortion is murder. Period”

no not period. It is murder based on your interpretation of Halacha, According to some it isnt murder, according to others it is murder for goyim not for Jews (try explaining that to a court)
Imposing your religous view on the rest of the country is church and state issue.

“bc hey, where do you draw the line?”

Lots of choices, can draw at birth (as Teh Rambam says until head leaves) can draw at viability outside the womb, can draw at 40 days . Not sure why being scared of where to draw the line is a reason to ban all cases.
No driving cars! Driving to fast is deadly! where would we draw the line as to how fast is safe. Ban them all/. I don’t get it

“Abortion bans will not apply if the mother’s life is at risk. There will certainly be exceptions permitting abortions if the mother will otherwise die.”

I am not sure how you knw that. Many do not believe there should be such exceptions. How are you so sure?
There was a famous case of Savita Halappanavar Who died as a result of being denied an abortion under Irelands’ then restrictive anti-abortion laws. This was in 2013, not all that long ago.

I grant that probably there will be such exceptions. But there are other complicated factors that come into play
What if the risk isn’t due to the pregnancy directly, but rather an extraneous cause (eg Cancer that requires chemo)
Of course you were careful to leave off mental health.
Sure in those cases not all poskim allow it As is true in any area in halacha (Though in practice both are unfortunate necessary and practiced in our community though as I live in NY this will not change with the pending Supreme court decision)

The question is ultimately who should decide what defines “life at t risk” The Government/courts ? OR a Woman’s Rabbi.

I find it a little surprising that people who get nervous at a whiff of government intervention in schools, and want the government to stay out of chinuch (a position I generally agree with) suddenly want more government oversight

To be clear Not trying to convince anyone here. I’ve said this piece many times before. people who don’t know/believe this is happening won’t believe an anonymous online poster. It is easy to dismiss the concerns of a bunch of faceless people who engage in “lack self control and irresponsible, immoral choices,” and lump the other cases in there. There are how many thousands of frum girls living in Say Brooklyn, ask yourself if you really think none of them ever got stuck with an “unwanted child” not due to their own lack of self control but to someone elses’ r”L ? Sure its rare. Very rare. Ok very very rare. But do you really think it hasn’t happened?

What should be done in that case? And more importantly who should decide? A Judge or a Rav?

DY
good to see you
I miss your comments I feel like things have been less interesting (not sure if that is cause or effect of your laying low)

Avira
do you have a source for your claim that halacha does not recognize Goyim’s conquest?

UJM

“By time the British later gained control of the land, they did not espouse or support the principles of Balfour.”

not quite true

From the Mandate for Palestine Assigning the British control over Palestine at the San Remo conference . (Signed by the British)

“Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, …

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; ….

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion….

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty’s Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home….”

“And the UN declared Jerusalem to be an international city not to be controlled by the Zionists or Jews.”

Ok so limit that comment to parts assigned to be a Jewish State.

Avira

“Ubiq – the UN decided on a Homeland, not a state. There was also provision for an arab state in the area. That makes the Arabs, according to your reasoning, baalei devarim too.”

I don’t know where you are getting your information from UN resolution Resolution 181 (II) athat was voted for by the UN after the British handed over the issue explicitly called for a “Jewish State” (You might be mixing up with Balfour which said “Homeland” not “State”

And I don’t really get your comment regarding arabs they are baalie Devarim. Ok mazel tov.

You said ““the Balfour declaration was not agreed upon (insert italics) by the people who lived in eretz yisroel, and their surroundings,”” My question was why does that matter?

Got

Yes its an old question, but its a good one, I was just saying I thought thats what your question was going to be. I was surprised the question was on “Kindergarten & Cheder pictures”
they are alos often drawn with letters aleph Beis gimmel… etc As far as I’m aware there is no shita that says the luchos had 10 letters. for that matter Even when it does say the dibros it is always “Anochi Hashem “Lo yiheye” Never the full dibros

The luchos represents the Torah which was given on shavuos

Or was it….
(I thought this was going to be your your question) when where mikadeish al pi riyah shavuos could have been on 5, 6 or 7 Sivan. Theres’ machlokes if Matan Torah was on 6 or 7 Sivan.

So According to all 2/3 of the time Shavuos was not on the day of Matan Torah, possibly even occruin 2 days before .

user176

“If the dough is just flour and water it should be hamotzi even for one bite.”

If it baked that way you are correct. It seems some frozen pizza is like that they bake flat disks then add sauce/cheese These would be Hamozi.
Fresh pizza is generally not made this way, rather they take dough cover it with sauce and cheese (sometimes other toppings) and bake it that way. It is not, and never was bread. Thus is not ALWAYS hamozzi, rather it depends on how it is being eaten.

” I’ve never seen anyone eat pizza as a snack.”

So when a man eats one slice what is he doing? you said “Average man eats two slices”

Also keep inmmind ” I’ve never seen…” isnt really a raayah . TS baum hasnt seen it either. Yet I, Gefiltefish, Avram, Rabbi Belsky Z’L, whoever wrote the OU article on the topic, whoever wrote the Kaf K article, the Star K, the pizza shops polled by those agencies have all seen it

Yes

CS

” we don’t pasken out own shalos by reading a halacha book or asking a bunch of random people online nor do we do our own root canal by reading a dental textbook.”

not every shayla is a root canal.

TS Baum

Your whole comment was a bit childish, and doesn’t make a lot of sense .
nonetheless lets explain

“do you see your phone number when you step on a scale?”
That would be an uncanny coincidence

“How can you consider it a snack?”
Because one slice of pizza is not very filling

” If you do, then you mean to say a meal of pizza is 4 or 5 slices?”
This question was strange. I told you what most people considered a meal “and that Two slices with a side dish (eg French fries) would be a meal.” How did you get from there to “4 or 5 slices”?

“I guess you send your kids with a few slices of pizza JUST FOR SNACK???”

What? Why? I said one maybe two slices was a snack We are talking about adults. how did you make that leap?

Benephraim,
“If it is bread,then it is bread and if it is cake then it is cake or babka? Why the confusion?”

no confusion. It is neither bread nor cake. It is something in between. Therefore it is treated as something in between, so it depends on how it is being eatedn if it is eaten like cake (ie as a snack) then it is treated like cake, if however it is being eaten as a meal then it is treated like bread.

(Cake too if enough eaten and eaten as a meal you may need to wash and bench since cake is also often pas habah bkisnin )

Common saychal
your comment is puzzling to me . “do you go up to random strangers in the street and ask for medical advice?” There have been literally dozens of threads on Covid19 all sorts of topics. Al thsoe are ok. chas veshalom a little torah should be discussed, and you try to shut it down.
You arent interested skip it , that is ok. Why the need to shut down a worthwhile discussion

“Some people deny this-but it’s true-NOBODY, and I mean nobody-eats pizza for snack”

This is nonsense
Nobody, sorry NOBODY* eats one slice and calls it a meal.

In fact years ago I heard from R” Belsky Z”l that even two slices was a snack and that Tow slices wit ha side dish (eg French fries) would be a meal.

See Kashrus Kurrents “PAS HABAH B’KISNIN: PAS OR PAS NISHT” from the Star Kwhere they say similar “Our Kashrus Kurrents pizza poll of current consumer eating habits indicates that the average person consumes one slice of an 18″ pizza (alone, without any sides) as a snack and three slices of an 18″ pizza (alone, without any sides) as a meal. Two slices of an 18″ pizza (alone, without any sides) was questionable. Most pizza shops were in agreement that the average consumer orders 2 slices of pizza with a side dish for dinner.”

(* Nobody Ive met, including my kids once they reach about 8, it is a big planet and I’m sure such poeple exist but there are so few of them that its faitr to say Batlu daatam, so that practically Nobody eats one slice and calls it a meal)

ujm

1. – 4

It is not completly clear, There was a Russian ban on peyos in trhe 1850s many beleive this is when attempts were made to “hide” them by putting behind ear, under yarmulka etc.

5. Long enough that hair can be grasped ie a few mm

6. They are less influenced by kabalistic ideas, al pi kabalah peyos should be long, not ever cut (some allow burning)/. al pi halacha as long as not removed completely (defined above) the peyos are long enough

“The Agudah also points out another problem of endangering children who are having to go to school when it is dark.”

They need filler so it isnt just about our unique needs
especially when you consider y they don’t explain why going in the dark is more dangerous than coming home in the dark, which they currently do, and DST would alleviate

Avira

“Marx and ubiq; I thought it was clear that I’m being only semi serious”

don’t worry it was.
Half of my reply got removed, defeating the point

probably was for the best

“Daas baalei batim is “hepech” of daas torah(rav chaim brisker), so if you’re an average jew, just flip what you consider to be common sense and you’re probably thinking in the way the Torah want you to.”

Shkoyach!

Today I learnt the Torah wants people to drink and drive.
edited

“This year will be the problem for those who only eat gebrokts the last day which is on shabbos, when will it be made?”

Not a problem, we will do the same thing we did 2019, 2018, 2015, 2012
We will make them on Friday, don’t forget an eruv Tavshailin*

(* No reason to say Hoil doesnt apply, many eat Gebrokts on shevii shel PEsach (as can be seen in this thread) kids can eat it, choleh shein bo sakana etc )

CA
“The Gemara in Rosh Hashanah says that Tishrei is Rosh Hashanah for non Jewish kings so when referring to a non Jewish king reign it would be the 11th month”

Your post was written fine. I understand you completely.

However the Gemara (almost explicitly) states not like that.
In the tzad that Daryavesh is considered like non-Jewish kings The Gemara quotes passuk reffering to Tishrei as “chodesh hashvii” and asks why it isnt a new year. The Gemara doesnt even address, and takes it for granted that even if it is a new year, and is the first month of the new year it is still “chodes hashvii”

CA

This is not correct (and is the same mistake he is making).

If you look at the beggining of Rosh Hashana the Gemara goes through several possible rayah that We start the year for Jewish Kings from Nissan , and for Goyish kings from Tishrei you will see this clearly.

for example The Gemara says how do we know Jewish Kings are counted from Nissan?
Answers Hekish to Yetzias Mitzrayim.
Asks How do we know Yetzias Mitzrayi is from Nissan?
Answers It says Aron died in the 5th month of the fortieth year ie Av then says Moshe spoke in the 11th month of the Fortieth year ie Shevat So you see within a year Av is before Teves which means new year cant be Tishrei.

CLEARLY the fact that the Torah calls Av the 5th month doesnt tell us anything about when the year starts. In fact the Gemara entertains the possibility that the story of Shevat (ie the 11th month) precedes the story in Av (the 5th month) all in the 40th year!
In other words if the year started in Tishrei (as it does for most things) The first month is “chodesh Hashvii” the second month is “chodesh hashmini” etc etc
these are the NAMES of the month .

The Torahs’s name for Av is “Chodesh hachamishi” whether it is the 5 th month of the year or the 11th,. The NAME of the month is Chodesh Hachamishi.

Many over the years have discussed why we no longer use these names/ and not all agree with the Ramban. but to actively change the number system doesn’t seem right

SK

“Today’s generation and for the last thousands of years we change the year number to a new year in Tishrei with the new Year starting and counting Rosh Hashanah as the start of the new year ”

Incorrect you are mixing up two things

The year starts w/ Tishrei (for most things) Yet Tishrei is still the Seventh month.

Tishrei is called the Seventh month even though it is the first month. In the torah the months don;t have names. Much like days of the week We use sunday Monday etc. In Hebrew today the months don;t have names just yom rishon/Day one yom shieni Day two etc Except for shabbos.

with me?

so Biblical months
wha twe call tishrei is chodehs hahshivii the Seventh month. This was and remains the name of the month. Even if the New year begins in tishrei, it still begins with chodesh Hasivii the seventh month

(Lehavdil September is the ninth month even though it is called seven/sept – lehavdil not a perfect comparison don;t get caught up on it.)

bottom line is Av is never called 11, it MIGHT even be a bitul aseh to do so.

AAQ

My question wasn’t about my leaving
It was about the headhunter. The headhunter who approached me seems no different than someone approaching cleaning help.

There are no doubt halachic issues Ani hamehapecha becharara comes to mind, yet the yonly seem to come up in thse cases. I’m wondering why that is. Is there a halachic difference?