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DY
thats interesting is do you mean their isnt an increase in mortality when kids play in traffic historically?
otherwise what shaychus?
BTW
I’d be remiss if I didnt mention another point that is being overlooked.
People are responsible for their own actions. Being “provoked” is not an excuse to stab random people. And it in no way shifts responsibility
even if walking on har habayis led to more violence (which historically it hasnt)The full responsibility for the deaths are by the perpetrators. Walking on har habyais isnt an excuse to kill people, neither is visiting the kosel neither is being Jewish.
And for those who seem to have trouble answering a simple question regarding Yankel Rosenbaum. The Full responsibility for his death lies with Lemrick Nelson. Not the driver who killed Gavin Cato, even IF he ran a red, nor with the hatzalah people even if they did neglect to treat Cato (they didnt but that rumor was spread)
To give some more exmples, since some people are having trouble with this. The Charlie Hebdo authors are not repsonsible for their own deaths. Zero Nada. They may not have been smart people or very nice ones for that matter. But “being provoked” is not an excuse.
I reall dont know why this is difficult. If I smack some guy named Joseph, because I feel Jospeh is obnoxious. Is he (at all) responsible for my smacking Joseph?
Even if I warn and say hey Joseph youre not nice If you make a snide comment again Im smacking my neighbor Jospeh Smith.
And keep in mind, I dont usually hit Jospeh smith, so the Arab terror example, which unfortunately has occurred in the past is even MORE removed from the “provocation”
mw13
“Listen, if you honestly believe that killing a terrorist can be compared to ascending HHB”
whoa hold up
I don’t in the slightest!
(fyoo no dead end, maybe someone will finnaly answer my simple question regarding Yankel Rosenbaum)
Do you not think there are arabs who view them the same?
Is that really a crazy question?
charedimodim
Number 1 can be proven with actual facts as I have repeatedly in many many posts.
Jews have ascended Har habyais without violence – fact
violence has occured without har habayis – fact
mw13
“… One such factor (although certainly not the only one) is if Jews provoke him/her….”
another such factor is the perceived injustice of how the Israelis treated the terrorist in Afula (that i mentioned above). Even if they were justified in our view and in reality.
If not why not?
mw13
Dont be disapointed. i’ll explain it to you. Though my postion is not based on logic it is strictly fact based.
There are two separate arguments going on tangentially.
1) Does Jews walking on har habayis incite more violence, thus making them responsible for it.
2) Does that make it wrong
(There is a third discussion regarding the halachic issue of walkign on har habyis, but i usualy avoid strictly halachic discussions on this forum because they usually turn into comparing R’ x to R’ Y)
some have argued that going on har habyis even if would lead to more violence is neccesary to show shlita over it or something to that affect. In other words they either concede or just dont discuss argument 1. I’m not sure I agree with that. The thrust of my argument was limited to argument 1.
Now according to your (and Joseph’s, DY’s argument) if I do an act X and you say oh you did X I’m going to do Y. Even if youve done Y multiple times without my X, even if you had planned to do Y anyway, even if I have done X multiple times without you doing Y. I am responsible for any outcomes of Y.
Again note: this doesnt automatically make X wrong.
Please correct me if I’ve misstated your position.
Following the above “logic”. If Soldiers shooting terrorists is used to incite more terror that makes them responsible. Granted it may be necessary and not wrong.
Please explain why soldiers killing terrorists doesnt make them responsible for more terror (again not why the action is justified)?
Also I asked earlier if in your view Yosef Lipshutz was responsible for the death of Yankel Rosenbaum (even inadvertently) is he?
DY
either that or how irrational and inconsistent your approach is…
Chareidi dont feel bad it doesnt make sense is not fact based.
Their is a video of a knife wielding terrorist getting shot that is being circulated to show how the Israelis shoot “innocent” women. I’m guessing in the view of DY, Joseph, Mw13 et al those who shoot terrorist are responsible for any further blood shed since this “provokes” them
mw13
“And we have explained ad nauseam, there is every reason to believe that it is.”
And AS I have explained to there isnt.
“Btw, I’m not sure why you don’t think the current spate of attacks isn’t “an uptick in violence that can be linked to har ahbayis”.”
I meant historically. THIS uptick in violence can be temporally linked to har habayis, historically given the years and years of arab terror there is no such trend.
“Moshol, li’mah ha’davar domeh – if a small spark causes a barrel of gas to explode, who caused the explosion, the gas or the spark?”
you are missing something from your moshol. If there are sparks that do not cause the barrel to explode, and the barrel often explodes without sparks. then one day the barrel explodes with a spark. It probably isnt the spark that caused it.
Furthermore, if somebody had the barrel wired to explode and just waited for a spark he can blame it on, when that spark in fact arrives and the barrel exlpodes it DEFINITELY cant be blamed on the spark
Ash
1. I dont follow. No a sbad as they are I dont think their actions cause violence. It does give them an oppurtunity to (falsely) label themselves as not anti-semitic since they have very Jewish appearing supporters
2. I dont excuse anything. All i know is that ascending Har habayis didnt start two weeks ago and nor did arab violence. and even if this uptick in arab violence can temporally be linked to media reports on har habayis this does not hold true historicaly.
3. Because if not for har hayis it would be the kosel if not the kosel tel aviv and if not tel aviv New york. Jews did not ascend har habayis during the (much worse) fedayeen attacks in the 50’s nor the highjackings during the 60’s-70’s
also feel free to answer my question posed to DY and Joseph
Was Darren Wilson responsible for the destruction of property in Ferguson?
add to that was Yosef Lifshutz responsible for the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum h”yd (even inadvertently)?
Another question for Joseph and DY
Was Darren Wilson responsible for the destruction of property in Ferguson?
Keep in mind that that violence unlike Arab violence would NOT have occurred if not for his actions (even if justified)
Joseph
“Why is it “best not to even give them an excuse”?”
This thing is being fanned on social media. They glorify violence, unfortunately stabbings lead to more stabbings, unfortunalty killing stabbers alos can be fanned to ile up the masses (let me guess in your twisted view, this means that those who kill terrorsits are also responsible for deaths of other Jews. Am I right bout that?)
In order to break the cycle, it is best not to give them any pretense if possible.
Do you think the ban will remain in place forever?
If not. Why would it be lifted? Does Netanyahu want the Jews killed?
“you cannot argue that the specific Jews who were murdered directly in response to the timing of the ascension to HH”B or directly in response to the timing of Grynspan’s murdering of a German diplomat, that those same specific Jews would have been murdered anyways if not for those actions by Jews”
that is EXACTLY what I am arguing!
Certainly you cant argue that when violence occurs without har habayis, and people ascend har habayis without violence. and then when violence occurs in the setting of har habayis If not for har habayis the violence would not have occured.
“will this likely lead to more Jews dying.”
No.
Kristalnacht wouldve hppned if Hershel Grynspan was never born, and Arab terrorism existed when Jews never went on Har habayis.
As for Netanyahu you have to ask him. My guess is at this time it is best not to even give them an excuse, not that it leads to more violence.
Ask yourself this iyh when things quit down hopefully real soon. Will Netanyahu keep the ban in place? Why not, does he want to see more Jews killed?
DY
at what point does “a cause” become meaningless, in other words when the other “causes” are any Jewish presence in any of Eretz Yisroel, and for many of them the “cause” is any Jewish presence on the planet? Especilay considering when it cant even be argued that it is a maor casue, being that there was violence without har habayis (oftne even more violence), and there were people going to har habayis without violence?
If they said the cause was davening at the kosel would that become a cause? If they said it was your using the internet would that become a cause?
DY
you fail to explain WHy it is flawed. Granted you said repeatedly that just because there is also violence when har habayis is not involved does not mean that har habayis isnt the cause. Nowehere (that I found) do you explain WHY this is so.
Also see question regarding Hershcehl Grynspan and kristalnacht
DY (and anybody else)
Allow me to try another approach. (see I never ignore your “rebuttals” in fact I try new arguments to get through to you)
Did Hershel Grynszpan cause kristalnacht?
Note: I am not asking if it was a good idea for him to “smack the thug” but only do you beleive he was responsible for kristalnacht?
apolagies DY.
I was arguing a different albeit related point. Namely if smacking a thug who routinely kills poeple wether they smack him or not can be considered to have incited his killing when smacked.
i’m not saying it is a good idea to smack him.
And i have never ever ignored your rebuttals. not once (unless accidentally missed a response in fact Ive even conceded when you made a valid point, iyh by you) You on the other hand claim to have address my points by repeating yourself after I rebut them. when I ask for clarification you ignore or repeat yourself. for example I raised cases of arab violence (greater than the current stream) that can in no way be attributed to har habyais. My point being that it is disengenioues to blame arab violence in har habayis when it existed to an equal and at times greater extent with no har habayis. you claime youve addressed this point. I cant find where. Granted, you repeat over and over that violence when unprovoked does not show that the har habayis provokes violence. You fail to explain why this is so.
DY
It isnt safe to walk past the thug either
If Reuvein walks by the thug and gets killed, Shimon walks by and gets killed. LEvi doesnt get killed, Yehuda does, Yissachor smacks him and gets killed.
I think its hard to argue Yissachar got killed becasue he smacked the thug
mw13
“Source?”
The mitchell report which was the Israeli’s report looking into the cause of the intifada.
they reported (from wikipedia) “The immediate catalyst for the violence was the breakdown of the Camp David negotiations on July 25, 2000, and the “widespread appreciation in the international community of Palestinian responsibility for the impasse”. In this view, Palestinian violence was planned by the PA leadership, and was aimed at “provoking and incurring Palestinian casualties as a means of regaining the diplomatic initiative”.”
“Without them, it probably would not have been as severe, and it may never even have started.”
This is a myth.
You missed my point with “Is that true? There was no har habayis excuse in the 50’s yet fedayeen attacks became a routine occurance.” Terrosim was more prevelant then than today. Ditto for the hijackings in the 70’s, first intifada, second. NOne of these (with the possible exception of the second intifada) can in any way be blamed on har habayis. There isnt even an uptick in violence that can be linked to har ahbayis.
My example with the thug was to illustratete that when there is no patern, you cant say smacking the thug exacerbates violence.
mw13
“Does one need a scientific, statistical study to determine that walking up to an armed, anti-Semitic thug and slapping him across the face is more dangerous than just walking by him?
Can anybody here honestly tell me that they’d say “hey, walking by him is dangerous anyways, so what’s the difference”?”
YES!
If Reuvein walkds by the thug and gets killed, Shimon walks by and gets killed. LEvi doesnt get killed, Yehuda does, Yissachor smacks him and gets killed.
I think its hard to argue Yissachar got killed becasue he smacked the thug
Joseph
“ubiq, then you’re clearly not following the Israeli news cycle very closely. “
I do as I have for decades. Even if you argue that more people are going to har habayis now than in the past. You cant use this to blame the first intifada nor the second (which started before sharon went on har habayis and was planned for months before that) and certianly not on fedayeen attacks in the 50’s. There is zero realtionship between visiting har habayis and upticks in violence in ISraels’ history. If you argue that for now on theri is with an “n” of one. That is possible but those who dont see it are not blind.
Joseph
then maybe I’m blind. I have been following ISraeli news for quite some time. There have been waves of violence “ebbs and flows” as somebody put it. I really dont see any increase in violence associated w har habayis visits.
DY
“I directly addresses that.”
Im sorry, i missed it. Mind repeating or directing me please?
“Is there data, a scientific study, to demonstrate that playing in traffic is dangerous?”
So…. no?
DY
“Of course it is”
Do you have any data to back that up?
“simply has no bearing in the fact that this does incite them even more,”
why not? You also neglected to address this :
“There was no har habayis excuse in the 50’s yet fedayeen attacks became a routine occurance.”
mw13
“And one of the most important principles in Judaism is the value of life, and the lengths we go to protect it. There are very few principles that override this one – namely avodah zara, giluy arayos, shvichas dumim, and certain forms of chillul Hashem. But asserting Jewish sovereignty is simply not one of them”
That isnt completly true. Milchama both shel chov and reshus are allowed in cetain situations (not that this qualifies) Asserting Jewish sovereignty in cetrtian circumstances (again not neccesarily this) deffinitly overrides human life.
“Remember, the spark that set off the second intifada was Sharon’s visit to HHB. If he hadn’t made that visit, things may have ended very differently.”
No that was the excuse used. The intifada was planned for months beforhand if sharon hadnt gone up then there would have been another excuse
“It never ceases to amaze me how the same people who will go on a crusade for safety in so many places (smoke detectors, vaccines, and metzitza bi’peh all come to mind)”
Is there data showing that as more yidden ascend har habayis more attacks occur?
DY
“ROB, for the umpteenth time, yes, they hate us, yes, sometimes they kill us. With more provocation, though, they do it more.”
Is that true? There was no har habayis excuse in the 50’s yet fedayeen attacks became a routine occurance. This isnt about har habyis make no mistake about it. If not for har habayis it would be the kosel, if not the kosel it would be tel aviv and if not tel aviv it would be new york.
“Here is the question. Do people who are not citizens of Israel or do not live there, have the right to voice an opinion on any Israel related matters.”
I would say no we have a duty. But “right” certainly.
BTW you cant have it both ways. Did several hundered thousand people have a right to rally in support of ISrael in April 2002?
popa
“Who doesn’t feed the chickens?”
Many/most of the kapporos centers Ive seen Boro park have not (though I havent been by in the past few years so maybe this has improved though from some of the troubling footage Ive seen this does not seem to have improved, though admittedly the footage has been filmed by antisemites so I cant be sure of its veracity).
” I’ve seen them feeding the chickens.”
mazel tov
” You think because they aren’t constantly being fed whenever you walk by that they aren’t being fed?”
no I think because after years of asking those running if and how much the chickens are fed, and thenm saying its just a few days and feeding would be cost prohibtive.
” Are you constantly eating?”
No
” Do you believe every blood libel that is thrown at us by the anti-semites?”
No.
Dy
“Why would we make up our own definition of tzaar baalei chaim when there already are halachic parameters for it?”
Pardon my ignorance but do the parameters not include not feeding the chickens and not housing them properly?
Damoshe
“While I think the motives of some (many?) of the protesters are not just about the animals”
should read “most”
That said, It concerns me that amongst ourselves we cant be honest. It is impossible to deny that the way kapparos are done in a 21st century metropolis with many chickens crammed in crates with little to no access to food/water exposed to the elements is a far cry from the way kapporos were done in 19th century rural Europe.
Now you can argue that kapporos is an important minhag and especially when anti-semites are trying to eradicate it it is worth preserving in spite of the above.
But what cant be argued is that the chickens arent suffering, and it concerns me that some cant be honest enough to acknowledge that.
scared
He doesnt have to say why.
Its obvious, he is pandering to the anti-science kooks that form a big chunk of the GOP base in particular those who would vote in priamries
skripa
There is nothing wrong with you. You answered your own question
“the vast majority of high school and even seminary or yeshiva bachurim have no recollection of the twin towers,either before 9/11 or even memories of the actual day. “
Im willing to bet you have no recollection of the beis hamikdash, nor do you have a recollection of a time that chilul shabbos didnt exist.
I’m not saying you shoulnt care about the above ch”v. just why it is hard to feel the same way you do about 9/11 as the churban
Syag
Wonder no more! You answered your own question
“I have often wondered how people can serve it [coldcuts] for shabbos lunch.”
” to say that it isn’t a real meal or special without meat is somewhat subjective”
Popa
“Why are you so familiar with the menu at Denny’s?”
google out of curiosity. no need to be “so familiar” A quick glanc at the menu reveals more meat options than non-meat options
“Why are you stalking your coworkers while they eat breakfast?”
No stalking, I eat with them. (Though I have cold cereal)
DY
“so it is not “fleishig” in the way we use the term.”
Here is Joseph’s comment “Ephraim, I don’t think meat breakfasts are common in non-Jewish America.”
It is “fleishig” in the way the term is being used in this thread
standard practice in most communities has been to make a milchig bris, for reasons mentioned above. This has been justified in the past by no less than the Maharm Shick (YD 366).
Popa
Dunkin Donuts, Dennys etc have menus with clear meat options readily availble online. I watch coworkers getting breakfats daily and they do in fact have fleihing breakfast routinely.
We have a rich mesora. For which approach do you want quotes?
Iran will develop a bomb and we all will learn to live with it. IVe been saying this since March 2003 whn the US invaded IRaq
Stam
1. None of the two studies I cited were funded by the pharmaceutical industry. The second one wasnt funded by the government either. Granted their is funding to jorunals in general, but the very fellow you cite acknowledges this! LEts see your friend Grecon say “look I have no evidence that my stuff works and I am making a mint off of it but trust me anyway”
This article had no “smallest deviation” from the pharmaceutical comapny.
” i am keenly aware of the corruption and greed in all of this which makes everyone suspect. Keep your eyes open to this reality and you will see it over and over again.”
Agreed, so read the study carefully! Dont just skim the abstract.
Though when you say “makes everyone suspect” you only mean Doctors and pharmaceutical companies not quacks. Right?
2. So because the head of the FDA worked form a pesticide company that makes him corrupt and becasue he is corrupt he will do corrupt things but only for pharmaceutical comapnies (and not all ) and not tobbaco. Why does he only like industries that start with the letter “p”?
3. How much time after a few hours of blockage the damage is usually irreversible and often leads to death!
7. Yes it is your fault. You said Doctors give blank stares when diet comes up, when in reality it is FIRST LINE therapy for some condiditions. ARe Doctors as knowledgeable about diet as nutritionists of course not. Are Nutritionists as knowledgeable about disease/health as doctors of course not. Both work together to care for the patient.
9. Are you serious? My wife got a parking ticket while getting our children their vaccines. And heres the kicker there is more evidence separating vaccines from death than vaccines from parking tickets. In fact I dont think there is any data showing that vaccines and parking tickets arent linked. You dont think they are linked? Try telling that to my wife!!!
10. Wahls’s career is based on this snake oil
” If you have to take fish oil for ex., why should the pharmacy make the profit, let me make it. I see nothing wrong with that. “
There is nothing wrong with that! But only if it works!!!!!!!
And to say that becasue pharmecutical companies are making money then automaticly they are suspect (although they have published data on their side) But Mercola is allowed to profit without any data. Are you listening to yourself?
“if people are still going to them, that tells me that there is something to it”
They go becasue they are desperate!!!
“But, admittedly, i hear their fees are exorbitant.”
umm…Hello!!! please listen to yourself. You admit that they charge exorbitant fees have no data that it works, and these are the good guys in your view?!!?
“You clearly no very little about nutrition and alternative health”
Not a secret. I know close too nothing about alternative health. I know real health. The extent of my knowledge on alternative ehealth are dangerous side effects from herbal stuff and interactions with proven remedies.
“Don’t feel bad ” I dont, but not becasue I;m the majority. Most of my views on this forum (not thread) are minority views. I have facts and data on my side. Why would I feel bad?
“I’m not sure I’m getting through.”
Oh you are.
“Please flip through some images of people suffering from Cancer, Heart disease, diabetes, M.S., Lou Gherigs, Crohns, Celiac disease, ulcerative colitis, gallstones, High blood pressure , Hyperthroidism, Osteoarthritis, Osteoporosis Parkinsons, Psoriasis etc… “
I dont need to flip through anything I work hard treating/curing or managing ALL the ailments you’ve listed!
“Just so you fully appreciate what it is that your pro-medicine cult has contributed to. “”
I do fully appreciate it, I thank the Ribono shel olam every day for the treatments he has given us. We have come a long way in managing all of the conditions youve listed in part thanks to the evil pharmaceutical companies (even if they are faaaar from lishma)
” Take care of yourselves and I wish you all a ????? ?????? ???? “
You too!
p.s. as mentioned previously, please do me a favor and flip through some images of polio and its sequela (iron lungs, cripled children etc…) smallpox, Measles mumps etc…
I’ve done your favor and I will bl”n read Hayford’s book (50 cents on amazon)
edited
stam
before you go can you please do me one favor.
You clearly no very little about the subject at hand. Ive tried to fill you in as best as I can but I’m not sure Im getting through.
Through this all there is one thing that we have overlooked and that is the diseases themselves. Please flip through some images of polio and its sequela (iron lungs, cripled children etc…) smallpox, Measles mumps etc… Jusy so you fully appreciate what it is that your pro-disease cult is trying to bring back r”l.
stam
The study was NOT funded by the pharmecutical industry or government you claimed that was what you sought. Now you say ANY study in any journal is automaticly suspect. Are you listening to yourself?
Also why would the Lancet publish Wakefield (who you did trust on the other thread, though he did have a financial stake…) if it was anti vaccine? Why are dozens and dozens of articles publsihed showing that some therapies are not effective?
Why does the governement invest so much against cigarettes?
2. How do you connect a pesticide company to pharmaceuticals?
6. A heart blockage can be cured by diet? in how long?
7. No you have not. I’m actually still not sure as to your view. Do Drs reccmend diet or not?
9. Evidence that there are confounding variables. For example “everybody” knows that as soon as you get a carwash a bird makes a mess on your car. Dozens of friends swore this happned to them, Ive seen it happen. Do you think recently washed cars have a higher rate of attracting birds? (beleive it or not it has been studied, though not as vigorously as vaccines)
10. They are taking money from vulnerable people with no evidence that it works. Highly suspect in my book
Stam
1. You should, you caim to want to be educated on the subject.
Mumps, Measles, and Rubella Vaccine and the Incidence of Autism Recorded by General Practitioners: A Time Trend Analysis
Kaye JA, et al., British Medical Journal. 2001; 322:460-63
was independently funded by the investigators.
I dont mean publish her anecdotes stan and jan berenstein published a series of books about talking bears. I mean data how many people were involved what treatment did they recieve? How was response measured? By whom? were they blinded? etc
2. NO but you do have to explain why you beleive every silly thing you read. The head of the FDA is Michael R. Taylor. He never worked for big pharm
3.
4. Thanks will bli neder get to it.
5. iyh by you. Fact (even ones you dont like) should trump opinion
6. Tay sachs (or any enzyme defficncy) cant be treated by diet nor can any anatomic abnormality that requires surgery. DO you beleive heart attacks can be treated (not prevented) by diet?
7. Simple question because youve said different things:
Do doctors sometimes reccomend diet as therapy for certain ailments?
8. What? Congressmen have nothing to do with the FDA (or CDC), do you not know about the division of powers the two arent related at all?
“WHAT DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND !!!!!”
I dont understand how a person can have such strong opinions without knowing anything about the subject at hand. You dont know how studies are done, you didnt know studies existed, you dont trust a governement that you have no clue how it functions and you believe all sorts of junk you read online.
“I believe the rest of your comments were discussed above or my answer to Syag.”
I cant find where.
But maybe you can clarify:
Would you change your mind if faced with evidence that opposed your belief?
And your Friend Gerson, and Whal, mercola etc…
They arent making money of their quackery?
Stam
1. Yes.
Now your turn did you read any of the studies?
I am laways open too learning. and unlike you freely admit that given evidence to the contrary I will change myview.
“They obviously did not see the video either or the thousands that follow her protocol with astounding success (they are in the middle of proving her theories in laboratory,”
There is no need for a laboratory publish it as an observational study.
If and this is the big one… if true.
2. What camopaing the hea dof the FDA isnt elected? The governement loses money on vaccines.
Why doesnt the governement push smoking. Big tobacco in its heyday was mcuh bigger than pharm today. Youd think the government would convince us that smoking saves lives, or at the very least be mum on the subject.
3. Ha ha ha this one is too good. “Think for a second. Mercury is the most toxic substance on earth ” or “mercury was replaced by aluminum which is more dangerous.” You need to brush up on your toxins. At any rate do you see how you keep moving the goal posts. First mercury is the most dangerous, it is removed then aluminum is worse.
4. Any in particular you reccomend? Ive read (ok skimmed) dissolving illusions, it was quite funny. Any others you recommend?
5. I absolutly read every word. You freely admit that your view is based on thought. I prefer fact and empirical data
6. So no.
7. It is not that we both agree. The “medical establishment” agrees in direct contradiction to your numerous misstatments that the medical establishment doesnt address diet/exercise. I beleive you have made that false claim in EVERY post youve written on this thread. IT simply is not true. (like most of your assertions)
Looking for all diseases is statisticly impossible (forget financially). So lets focus on one. Autism has created the biggest stir so that has been studied and studied.
“but the facts that i see and not the ones manufactured by people that profit trillions of dollars off those facts, or the people who profit politically from those facts (the govt.)”
Sorry you dont get to pick your facts. And as explained above the governement loses money on vaccines.
“I take offense that you say that my mind is made up “
Dont take offense YOU said that “What can i answer you when there are literally thousands of parents who saw the transformation of their children overnight ? A coincidence? A million studies would not convince me” here:http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/letter-from-rabbonim-that-schools-must-accept-non-vaccinated-children/page/2#post-580827
“Who is the dishonest one here????”
YOU!!
Unless there are two posters posting under your name one of whom beleives mercury is the most dangerous substance, and that you would change your mind given an adequate study and that doctors sometimes discuss diet/excercise
vs the other guy who beleives aluminum is the most dangerous, would never change hi mind and Doctors get blank looks when diet/excercise come up
Yes all six of those contradictory statements where made on this thread under your screen name.
If it is actually two different people or one person in different states of cellular health my sincerest apologies. But if you keep changing your mind as the conversation goes along, that is in fact dishonest.
STam
1. You are right it isnt a theory it is nothing.
“expert doctor will change the diet of his patient before he administers drugs. Go tell that your doctor and you will draw a blank look on his face…..)”
youve said that a few times it simply isnt true. Check any guideline on HTN or Diabetes first line treatment is diet and excercise. Ive said this 3 or four times already.
I’m curious do you beleive an infection can be cured with diet? cancer( though several can be somewhat prevented with diet)? an inherited enzyme defficincy like tay sachs?
2. He wont. He gave up his carreer for what eh beleives is thr truth. He may be wrong but this is a side topic.
OK So let me see if I have this right. Big Pharma develops vaccines they then pay the governemnt to push them. The governemnt pays to research them and adminster them, so how is the governemtn gaining?
Granted big pharma is gaining that I got, but the governemnt losses moeny on vaccines
3. There is absolutly no mercury in most vaccines (flu is an exception). Autism rates or going up, maybe we need more mercury…
4. Sure, though I dont have a lot of fake journals, can you reccomend any?
5. a lot of mumbo jumbo about philosphy. I care about real world data ie facts. Not philosophical pinings
6. Hashkafa is irrelevant. Can tay sachs be cured by diet? any enzyme defficncy?
7. “On your point in #8 – did i say not like that?”
Um yes many times!!!! eg your very last post expert doctor will change the diet of his patient before he administers drugs. Go tell that your doctor and you will draw a blank look on his face…..) http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/letter-from-rabbonim-that-schools-must-accept-non-vaccinated-children/page/3#post-580941
Do you even read what you write
“but i don’t want you to think i am running away…..”
you are, and whats upsetting is you are too dishonest to admit it. You said youd reconsdier if a study was done. I provided a study and now you say you will never change your mind. Man up and admit that you (and most of your ilk) are not interested in facts. Your mind is made up and nothing will change it (this last part you actually did admit to, so kudos for that).
stam Sorry for the delay
1. I’m not saying there is no role for eating healthy. In fact I said the exact opposite. I am saying that scientific evidence trumps anything including anecdotal stories and your theorois on “cellular health”
2. Whats Nadler got to do with anythin? And how did he further his career, he probably lost it! But this is waaaay off topic.
bottom line is what does the Government gain by spending money developing and adminstering vaccines? You have not answered this question.
3. The autism theory started that way. When evidence showed it was flawed and mercury was removed do you think the “theroy” went away? ITs like doomsday cults who predict the end of the world on a given day say 12/31/15. When the day passes do you think they admit they were wrong? Almost never, they double down and creativly reinterpret things. Make no mistake the anti-vaccine cult is no different. You blame mercury, it is removed do you change your mind? No you come up with new garbage.
Oh and with removal of mercury, autism rates are going up…
4. “If someone squirts a couple of ounces of mercury in their vein, you better believe that you will be suffocating the cells”
Doubtful, though i imagine it would cause a PE first.
Nobody is injecting ounces we are talkign about ppm. And that was in the past, now it is zero! (in most vacines)
5. YOu havent explained how the vaccines affect “cellular health” so quickly this is striking stuff
7. I dont know where th vilan gaon says that, but if it was true then it sint true now.
8. Thank you for proving my point. The first line treatment for mild htn is diet and excercise!
“That’s certainly a virus. “
actually Sam2 Theres a whole school of “thought” that denies that AIDS is caused by a virus, theres a wikipedia page on them. So AIDS may in fact be caused by magical toxins
stam
1. who do you trust? besdies “literally thousands of parents” At any rate I’m missing something So the CDC spends money researching then fakes the data to make it seem like they work then spends money administering them all the while knowing that they dont work and are secretly spreading autism. Why?
2. There are increasing autism cases. I dont know why though there is more of a chance that the increase in blogs are to blame. IT makes as much biological sense as vaccines and there is no data proving otherwise.
3. Without any doubt! As has been explained autism generally turns out around age 2 this is the same age as when MR is given. I have a cousins cousin who wants to ban ice cream cones since the day her cousins friend drowned they all had gotten ice cream. coincidence?
“How does that jive with all your statistics? “
It jives quite well both are expected to occur at the same age.
Though I would absolutely love to hear how in a matter of hours vaccines affect “cellular health” and change the child forever, and they notice it that same day! Quite striking. Could you wal me through the mechanism please?
3. “as much as possible until child immunity strengthens, “
what age is that?
” and then space out as much as possible”
Also been studied, not that you care
“nd then go through some type of detoxication program afterwards to lessen the harm from all the foreign substances “
What?
“and then daven their brains out that no harm comes to them.”
always a good idea
5. The first paragraph is absolute mumbo jumbo. Some diseases you can sort of argue your case but not most. At any rate why cant the kidneys filter these “toxins”? and what are they? Why cant we find them?
“(which admittedly i still don’t understand and haven’t researched properly….)”
A fairly easy to read book is “how the immune system works” by Lauren somparayec its less than 150 pages you cna get a slightly older edition on amazon for less than $10. Though I should warn you it is based on real science not “toxins”
“(btw, you can thank quacks like me for getting the mercury out of vaccines”
No thanks! It has been proven safe, and in spite of being removed dishonest quacks like you are still putting lives at risk!
“All the money is in alleopathy which resorts to chemical medicines to solve all issues”
Wrong as usual! Guess what the first line therapy is for (mild) hypertension or prediabetes?
The money is where the research leads us. If exercise cures cancer then exercise if chemo does then chemo.
5. Again, i speak as a person directly related to a family of doctors and nurses
Maybe they arent very good doctors? Like the quack in the previous thread who you quoted saying he “doesnt know anything about health” or something to that extent.
good for Joseph, the way it was originally writtn was incredibly un-tznius. What buisness do Albert and Bernard have becoming friends with Cheryl?
Though it pains me that Jospeh didnt change the goyish dates
Stam
1. “Your study was funded by whom?”
Which I provided several.
eg this one:
Increasing exposure to antibodystimulating
proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not
associated with risk of autism
DeStefano F, Price CS, Weintraub ES.
Journal of Pediatrics. 2013;
Was primarily funded by the CDC. But regardless of source of funding if they are up front about it (unlike your friend wakefield) that is no reason to automatically disregard the study, though I grant Id be more careful/suspicous.
“What can i answer you when there are literally thousands of parents who saw the transformation of their children overnight ?” I doubt therie are that many.
” A coincidence?”
Yes!
There are more than thousands of people who claim revelations from oso haish or have sen UFO’s etc do you buy into all that too?.
“A million studies would not convince me (because i would always suspect the funder or the method….)”
kudos for admitting your lack of objective honesty. Though I’m not quite sure what you want. You readily agree you have an opinion based on anecdotal evidence and will not change your mind no matter what.
This line of yours made 3 days ago “I am neither pro or anti and am somewhat confused.” is also apparently not true…
2. As explained earlier if you take any 2 groups of 100,000 children and look for “all diseases” by sheer chance alone some will be more prevelant in one group than the other.
“Your statistical technicalities I do not agree with.”
They arent mine. Thats the way the Boreh olam designed the world.
“You see, i come from a position where disease is all rooted in cellular health.”
I honestly dont know what that means. If you come from earth then diseases where you are from and where I am from work exactly the same way.
“perhaps in part to kids that are vaxxed to the maxx “
Or perhaps due to blogs…
“The hypothesis would be that the vaxes comprise immunity and cellular health considerably “
care to explain how?
“he once received a phone call from insurance company how come he never bills for strep “
Hahaha an insurance company looking to pay for more diseases! Ok we definitely arent on the same planet. Though yours sounds way better.
3. i will repeat the example someone else gave. Every year as icecream sales go up pool drownings go up. This does not mean ice cream sales cause pool drownings. Whats more regarding Autism and vacccines the above exampe is not true, since as vaccinations go up, Autism DOES NOT!!
4. Their are hundreds of premed and medical students who would kill to have thier names on such an earth shattering study. They would be glad to help for free. Please encourgae him to get this critical information out there.
5. cholent? Wont that alter our cellular health?
stam
Um no. You demanded a study to prove the safety of vaccines. You said this would “settle the case once and for all”
see here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/things-causing-autism-jokes#post-561901
I cited you several such studies
see here
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/things-causing-autism-jokes#post-561919
You then demanded impossible studies and did not understand why they were impossible indicating that no you are not “knowledgeable enough to debate scientific testing”
I then left off with a simple question. Lets limit the discussion to autism for now. Granted There is no study shows absolutely no risk from vaccines. But there are several that show no link between autism and vaccines. Can you agree to that?
You then ran off
.
“I know one thing. I have spoken to many people who saw their children directly affected by vaccines (like literally that day)”
You mean they felt irritable and pain at the site? That is to be expected. The Doctor should have told the parent s that.
“Dr. Eilenberg has said that he sees how much better the anti vaccine babies do compared to provaccine.”
Tell him to publish! spread the word save lives! Why is he sitting quiet on this important information?!.
“Can we not see with our own eyes how many get sick and how many don’t even if can’t measure any one particular disease. “
Im not sure what you mean. Sick in what way? 20,000 people is a lot of people such a study would be prohibitively expensive. And besides you cant look for any disease since even with a p value of 0.05 if you want to include 20 diseases then (almost by definition) by chance alone one of them will appear more common on one side.
“i.e. when vaccines comprise one’s immunity, he will become to many many diseases and his genetic makeup will determine if he gets cancer, diabetes, etc….”
vaccines dont compromise immunity (I’m not even sure what you mean) Nor do they affect genetic makeup.
“1. i don’t know who funds them.”
All that information is readily available.
” 2. i and i don’t think most know how to read them i.e. who is conducting, how is set up etc….”
Thats true. Thats why you can either trust those who do know how to read them. Or ask for help understanding them. Flip through the studies or abstracts in the list I provided earlier. If you are genuinely confused and honestly want to learn more. Id be happy to dissect one of the studies with you.
“I’m sorry if i am not being clear, but I hope you understand my points.”
I dont think I do
Is this only true for Rabbonim? Or is donald Trump the biggest yorei Shomayim of the presidential contenders?
dbrim well written but a few quibbles:
“PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH. It doesn’t take a Ph.D. to understand the basics of the scientific method or how to evaluate non-experimental and experimental research studies (although having one does give you an edge).”
agreed
“Only true experiments can establish a cause-and-effect relationship between variables. Non-experimental research cannot demonstrate a cause- and-effect relationship.”
I’m not sure what you mean by experimental research vs non experimental. I assume you mean Randomized controlled studies vs observational. However your point is still not quite true. Even RCT doesnt necessarily PROVE cause-and-effect. And Observational studies even if they dont PROVE it if their is a mechanism and a clear effect shown by a preponderance of data is enough to establish cause-and effect. That smoking can cause lung cancer is something that even the nuttiest of pro-disease people accepts even though there is no RCT that demonstrates it. For that matter, many pro-disease claim that vaccines casue asthma/autism obviously not based on a RCT either.
“Most of the research conducted investigating the effects and effectiveness of vaccines has been NON-experimental, due to the ethical issue of using a control (comparison) group with non-vaccinated children.”
True, though not all.
” Studies that have been conducted using time series designs (non-experimental) definitely challenge the belief (yes, it is a belief) that vaccines are effective in eradicating diseases.”
Source? I have never come across such a study
” The research that investigates the association between vaccines and negative effects (autism, asthma) are correlational – again NON-experimental.”
And havent found any such relationship.
” The reality is we have along road ahead of us in collecting scientific evidence about the short and long term benefits/risks of tens of doses of chilhhood vaccinations children are receiving.”
How long? At whta point in your estimation is it ok to dismiss the pro-diseasers as kooks. Ten years? 20? and after how many studies showing over and over that vaccines are not linked to autism?
” So, let’s be tolerant. For those who vaccinate, according to vaccine theory, your children are immunized and should have very little chance of catching childhood diseases”
I care about THEIR children too! Just becasue they were unlunky enough to have been born to pro-diseasers doent mean innocent children should suffer.
” Parents who have chosen not to vaccinate are not irresponsible,”
They are
“It is likely that they have done research”
It is far from likely I have been discussing this topic for years now. Ive encountered posters demanding studies that already existed! of course once supplied they ran off.
” and/or asked their daas torah before being poraish from the tzibbur.”
This isnt a daas torah question it is a medical question.
“We need not be afraid to question past medical/ societal practices.”
Whole heratedly agree! But we need to be afraid of accepting answers either.
” For those of you who don’t understand why the vaccine issue isn’t totally 100% beneficial with no risks at all, please ask to see the list of vaccine ingredients and the leaflet describing the risks involved in vaccines during your next visit to the pediatrician.”
No need to wait, you cna look up the ingredients they are redily available.
” May it be a year of only health for Gans Klal Yisroel.”
Amen!
P.S. Whether the letter is fact or fiction is no excuse for slandering talmidei chachamim
“Ask any parent who has to older vaccinated kids & 2 younger unvaccinated kids,
the all saw the same trend , the unvaxed developed faster & healthier”
I dont know too many kooks, but the one I do know saw no such difference.
“200 years there were warnings about smoking dangers , but the med journal ran ads DOC smoking Camel”
so…
Also You have yet to provide a single source for any of your nutty pro-disease theories
“According to mayo clinic 3 times as many asthma ER visits from these who took the flu shot”
Where do they report this?
baryachai
“Who cares who makes more ? I care who kills !”
You do!
“Robert Shanik wants to make $1000 on every newborn so he tells us
95 year old Grandma is living longer, because her grandnkids are vaccinated”
In order to defend your indefensible pro-disease stance you resort to labeling those who are far more educated than you and dedicate themselves to the klal as being motivated by profit.
You also resort to bogus “facts” you cite the mayo clinic where is this published I cant find it.